Ship of Fools: Advice please on pastorally sensitive Baptism

Thread: Advice please on pastorally sensitive Baptism Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by vascopyjama (# 1953) on :

I am a priest in a team ministry in a large rural area. And I am a woman.

Cutting a long story short I took a Thanksgiving for the birth of a child service. The family had requested baptism but the team leader persuaded the family for the alternative service. This lead to episcopal intervention where I was encouraged to work with the family toward baptism. Which I have done. Til today when the family tells me that they want a man to take the service as it will be proper for a man to baptise the baby.

I was flabbergasted and said I would consult with my team members. Which I did. Tough titties was the response. I am the priest appointed. My Anglican diocese accepts the ordination of women. So if they want an Anglican baptism it is me... Now it is my job to explain that to the family..... (And a small country town that is still upset about the non baptism ...)

Words of wisdom welcome!

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

That's really tough.

Were you hoping that another male team minister would be prepared to come forward and take the baptism? On a pastoral sensitivity issue, helping to calm ruffled sensibilities after the thanksgiving / baptism issue? Do you think the family will come round? or are their feelings still too bruised by their previous experiences?

If you insist on taking the service, is there likely to be further episcopal involvement? If so, is it likely to be the same person as before?
When the episcopal involvement happened before, were you dealing with it with the bishop's office, or your team leader?

If you were dealing with the bishop's office and have a contact there, is it worth phoning them up and asking advice for the same problem?

Posted by vascopyjama (# 1953) on :

Thanks CK for your reply

The episcopal involvement was moving the team leader out of the situation and asking me to soothe the feathers with the family and the community. Which was happening ...

I do feel a smidgen of ownership but definitely don't want that to be my motivation. I am taken aback after all the positives.

I do like your suggestion of contacting the Bishop.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Hmm. Even before the OoW came up, any Christian, man or woman, could baptize someone in a pinch at least according to the Episcopal Church USA. It is not necessarily a function of the ordained. Not that I'm sure this would persuade the family. Have they ever received Communion from you before? If so, they have already accepted you sacramentally.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

My two cents worth is that as the only female clergy ( deacon ) around for a number of years, whenever the question of wanting a male came up I would simply smiled and said, " Of course if that is what you want I will try and arrange it." I simply tried to meet people where they were and not force issues. It took a while but nearly all of the people came around to accepting me as female clergy. I think the important thing is the baptism after all not who does it. The bottom line of course is that it is Holy Spirit who does the baptism. That said, in later years after folks had grown used to the idea of having female clergy, I was it, take it or leave it.

Posted by vascopyjama (# 1953) on :

Thank you for your replies.

The family have not recieved communion from me.

I can see that my dilemma is actually how to tell the team leader that I do not agree with his "we don't support sexism in the church" response so "it is Vasco or nobody."

I don't want this baptism to be about church politics. Then again I guess that is how it all started...

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

'tis said that Baptism is a ceremony during which the candidate is initiated into a doctrinal controversy that will remain with them throughout their life.

This poor mite looks like it'll get initiated into two.

Lucky thing.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Looks like this could turn difficult if you make a concession on this occasion - as it might open the door to other fussy baptism families wanting only a male priest (how do you allow it for one and not the others?)

But if the worst comes to the worst, you'll have to invest in a stick-on moustache.

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

Your team leader does seem to get you into some situations!!

I think a lot depends on how the baptisms and workload in your team are usually organised and shared. If you are the only one who baptises at this church, then it would be quite reasonable to say ‘sorry but I am the person who does the baptisms here and that’s the way it is’. After all if you live in a parish with s single vicar, then you have no choice as to who does the baptism.

However if you play musical fonts/pulpits, and don’t have set a person who operates in particular church or sphere, then it would seem reasonable to say you can have x to do the baptism the next time that he is on the rota, but you take the date that is given and can’t be fussy.

But as Lyda*rose said, the rules do say that in an emergency any Christian person can perform a baptism, however in a non emergency it must be a priest.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Oh heck. You don't want to antagonize the family any more, this is definitely not the time to try to correct either sexism or mistaken sacramental ideas, your team leader is being a pain--could you maybe slide a concelebration past everybody? With a token male, I mean.

If it weren't for the hierarchy breathing down your neck, I'd say hand the sucker off to a guy. There's no reason to further piss off a family who's already had it rough, even if they now foolishly ask for a Klingon in full battle gear to do it.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Well, I was wondering if the bishop could helpfully come along on a sensible Sunday or send someone from the bishop's office as support and encouragement - and take the baptism.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

Wow. what a mess.

This isn't my bailiwick, but my thoughts are something like this: meet with the family and say, "I spoke with the rest of my pastoral team and they are not inclined to grant your request. I understand where you are coming from," -well, you can understand it even if you think it's hokey- "but let's take a look at how exactly baptism works." then explain the stuff about the Holy Spirit doing the actual work, and how non-ordained lay people are allowed to do it in a pinch, and therefore even if they think your ordination isn't somehow "real" it's still acceptable, etc. followed by, "If you are still concerned, I will contact the bishop and pass your concerns along to him/her, but that's the best I can do."

Then, you either move forward or pass the buck to the higher ups. You shouldn't have to fight this battle all by yourself. The exact problem here is that the parents don't seem to think you have the right authority - therefore, if you are the only one to address it without someone who is (in their eyes) "legit" backing you up, it's like so much wind.

and remember, this ain't personal. don't get emotional.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Very good advice, comet.

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

Presumably the original complaint against the Team Leader was that he was putting up barriers/demands beyond the scope of church law? Now it seems that the family are putting up barriers/demands beyond the scope of church law, which to my mind goes some way to vindicating the Team Leader's original intuition to steer these people towards something different (even if this may have been handled in an inept way..) They clearly don't really believe in baptism as the church understands it if they think its validity/acceptability rests on the gender of the person who conducts it. Even my former colleagues on the Provisional Wing of Forward in Faith would be with you on this one!

For you to bring in a male colleague on the basis of their request will set a precedent and undermine your own ministry there. You have become involved here in response to the Bishop's intervention: since you are the priest tasked by the Bishop with 'bringing the family to a baptism' I think it is up to them to go to the Bishop and demand that at this point another priest takes your place because you are of the wrong gender.

I think you may find that the Bishop's patience with them is not infinite.....

Posted by vascopyjama (# 1953) on :

Thank you all very much for your words of wisdom. I am going to see the family and talk about how baptism works. If they wish for somebody else to take the service they can take it up with the Bishop. Who will be aware of the situation from me.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by vascopyjama:
Thank you all very much for your words of wisdom. I am going to see the family and talk about how baptism works. If they wish for somebody else to take the service they can take it up with the Bishop. Who will be aware of the situation from me.

Good luck. Hopefully the conversations will be productive and helpful for all of you.

Tubbs

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

Good luck from me too. I know from 34 years experience how frustrating and distressing these situations can be. PLEASE come back and tell us how it goes.

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Good luck from me too. I know from 34 years experience how frustrating and distressing these situations can be. PLEASE come back and tell us how it goes.

I'm not sure I quite understand this. The family, one assumes, do not recognize the ordination of women. There is still supposed to be a place in the CofE for people who do not recognize women priests. Yet the parish/team is apparently going out of its way to frustrate their desire for the baptism to be conducted by a male priest, for what, for all the world, look like political reasons. What on earth is going on? Perhaps the bishop can knock some heads together.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Good luck from me too. I know from 34 years experience how frustrating and distressing these situations can be. PLEASE come back and tell us how it goes.
I'm not sure I quite understand this. The family, one assumes, do not recognize the ordination of women. There is still supposed to be a place in the CofE for people who do not recognize women priests. Yet the parish/team is apparently going out of its way to frustrate their desire for the baptism to be conducted by a male priest, for what, for all the world, look like political reasons. What on earth is going on? Perhaps the bishop can knock some heads together.

FWIW AFAICT vascopyjama is not in the CofE so the situation may be different in her province, and, in any event, baptism is not a ministry reserved to the priesthood.

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Good luck from me too. I know from 34 years experience how frustrating and distressing these situations can be. PLEASE come back and tell us how it goes.
I'm not sure I quite understand this. The family, one assumes, do not recognize the ordination of women. There is still supposed to be a place in the CofE for people who do not recognize women priests. Yet the parish/team is apparently going out of its way to frustrate their desire for the baptism to be conducted by a male priest, for what, for all the world, look like political reasons. What on earth is going on? Perhaps the bishop can knock some heads together.
FWIW AFAICT vascopyjama is not in the CofE so the situation may be different in her province, and, in any event, baptism is not a ministry reserved to the priesthood.

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

Oops, sorry about that last one: trying to disentangle quote from within quote within quote....

I hadn't picked up that she wasn't in the C of E, so answered from a C of E perspective. But the whole point is that, unlike the Eucharist, even those convincedly anti OOW could never argue that a Baptism administered by a woman priest was invalid. This is because the Church has always recognised the validity of Baptism regardless of the Orders (or indeed of them) of the person who administers it.

What's more, IMHO, for an opponent of OOW to approach a church whose normal minister is a woman and then demand that she bring in a male priest to satisfy their demand for one is just plain rude. It doesn't exactly sound like there isn't a church with a male priest within a hundred miles of hers, does it?

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
even if they now foolishly ask for a Klingon in full battle gear to do it.

I would pay good money to see that. [Cool]

Posted by vascopyjama (# 1953) on :

Hello all

I am an Anglican priest.

My Bishop asked (told) me to minister to this family as the pastoral relationship with the male team leader had broken down. Which I did.

Now that the family are requesting Baptism, they want a different man to present their child to God. To quote the family.

As yet the family have not responded to my phone calls, so I have not been able to explore the issue further. And the Bp is away,so I am in a slow holding pattern.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Might be that their request presents an opportunity to talk to them about what baptism is.

Posted by vascopyjama (# 1953) on :

That is what I am aiming to do

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

Their silence/non replying to your calls may be telling. They may have given up, or you may hear at the next Deanery Chapter that they have tried other churches, blackening your parish's name in the process.

My late father offered his sons words of wisdom to prepare us for this kind of life experience. In this kind of situation, he would say Whatever you do will be wrong: do it immediately!

I have come to realise that he was often right....

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