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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dear Jim Wallace...
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
... it's not a fucking "LIFESTYLE", OKAY?!!!
Hell's bells. Given this guy is within a reasonable physical distance of me, I really really want to get a large wooden plank and smack him in the head with it until he gains some sense.
No-one is born smoking, you fucking moron. And you won't find the heads of leading quit smoking programs acknowledging that no, actually, their programs don't truly work.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Is this Australian Christian Lobby really an Australian Christian Closet? You know what it's like with anti-Gay protestors.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Is this Australian Christian Lobby really an Australian Christian Closet? You know what it's like with anti-Gay protestors.
The thought did cross my mind. Actually, I recently met a gay guy who knew Wallace many, many years ago. No claims he's in the closet, but reportedly he turned from a reasonable person into a hard-edged loony when he got married. So the wife got to him in at least some respect.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Whew. For a minute there I thought we were talking about this guy. But then I never could spell.
And yes, that word should probably be banned altogether. It gets applied not only to people of varying sexual orientations, but also to the homeless, to the poor, to the addicted, and even to my clients.
Schizophrenia or autism as a "lifestyle choice," anyone?
[ 07. September 2012, 00:55: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
Yeah, people throw that stupid word around far too much. "The homosexual lifestyle" always set my teeth on edge. What the close-minded usually mean by that is Gay men who prance around in drag and have absolutely faaaaaaaaabulous fashion sense and perfect feng shui. The lesbian lifestyle is women who want to be men (of course! Every woman secretly wants a cock, right?! ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) ), dress like men, be butch in bed and order the little ladies around. The "little ladies" are almost always confused straight women who have strayed from the "normal" path...
The hippie lifestyle is about smoking pot all day, pissing/shitting in your organic vegetable garden, overthrowing capitalism, and dancing around nude, worshiping trees.
What would be the right wing conservative Christian lifestyle? Being a staunch Republican, of course. Being against ANY thing that Obama or Clinton (Hilary or Bill) was in support of, believing that the liberals are hell-bent on turning the United States into a socialist gulag... but wait, where's the "lifestyle"? Monster trucks? No, that' for good ole boys, not necessarily right-wing conservative Christians. Having lots of pictures of a blond-haired blue-eyes Jesus in your home? Saying, "Thank you, Jesus!" and asking the great unwashed if they have found Jesus? It's all so confusing! How do right-wing conservatives decorate?
LOL.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
... it's not a fucking "LIFESTYLE", OKAY?!!!
Hell's bells. Given this guy is within a reasonable physical distance of me, I really really want to get a large wooden plank and smack him in the head with it until he gains some sense.
No-one is born smoking, you fucking moron. And you won't find the heads of leading quit smoking programs acknowledging that no, actually, their programs don't truly work.
Good God, what is going on with the GOP? It's like they are saying "Look, there's still some scrapings left in the Stupid Pot, tip it!"
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
had a guy earlier this summer say he doesn't "support my lifestyle" and I'm pretty sure he was talking about me being a single parent.
the one thing about humanity that makes me give up all hope is that every single one of us are people. and people suck.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I think the problem here is the definition of "lifestyle".
I don't think Jim Wallace was talking about sexual preference as a lifestyle. He was talking about certain behaviors and health issues associated with some homosexuals (e.g. drug use, HIV) that can shorten your life.
Just like lack of exercise and low socioeconomic status are associated with smokers.
The argument assumes that all homosexuals are drug takers or don't have safe sex or whatever that leads to ill health.
Which is an incorrect assumption of course.
Just like assuming I, as a smoker, never excercise, am poor and have a poor diet.
I am a smoker, but I am none of the rest of those things.
(p.s. When I was in high school the stats certainly did imply a connection between drug use, HIV and homosexuality. Is that still true or not? That Jim Wallace chap seemed to say HIV is still highest amongst gays. Is that true?)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That Jim Wallace chap seemed to say HIV is still highest amongst gays. Is that true?)
It is true in Australia, yes. Precisely because the containment strategies implemented in the 1980s in this country were outstandingly successful, possibly more successful than any other country in the Western world. I once saw a fascinating documentary about the superb job done by Neal Blewett and Minister for Health and his opposition counterpart, Peter Baume, at defusing the HIV-prevention measures as a political issue and ensuring that things were done purely on a health basis.
End result, here in Australia HIV has not tended to spread very far from the groups that happened to be the initial groups affected.
Meanwhile, millions upon millions of heterosexuals in Africa and Asia are infected with the 'gay disease'.
[ 07. September 2012, 07:07: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The problem is everyone has a lifestyle. I have a lifestyle, some parts of which I have chosen, other parts I have not. Some parts, significantly, I have chosen from a small set of options.
For someone to judge me based on what they see now, on the results of many many choices, some good, some bad, without considering exactly what my choices were and why I made them is stupid.
What is more, others may be in similar positions but by completely different routes. To condemn my "aaaaaa" lifestyle, whatever that is, because you know other people who are arseholes who follow an "aaaaaa" lifestyle is like chopping down all trees because one was in my way once.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
One rarely hears the term "Heterosexual Lifestyle"
You know the one where men and women get pissed off with each-other, belt each-other , cheat on each-other and increasing indulge in general promiscuity .
Even when man/woman unions were locked into a dogmatic institution, as they were 100 years ago , it caused a build of latent anger and tension that exploded into Total War between Christian nations.
But hey, it's the way the majority of us are, so this lifestyle must be right..... Isn't it ?
[ 07. September 2012, 08:14: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
What I dislike is that the word 'Christian' gets linked to these people.
Perhaps, like a couple of UK universities and their Christian Unions, they should have 'Evangelical' placed before 'Christian' to make it clear that their views are not authoritatively Christian, and that there are many who would describe themselves as Christian but who do not share their particular slant on faith and morals.
Having said that, I am sure many evangelicals wouldn't wish to either.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Sebby
I would have the same problem with 'Evangelical'.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Whew. For a minute there I thought we were talking about this guy.
So did I.
No, this guy is pretty cool. Most of the time.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
... it's not a fucking "LIFESTYLE", OKAY?!!!
Hell's bells. Given this guy is within a reasonable physical distance of me, I really really want to get a large wooden plank and smack him in the head with it until he gains some sense.
No-one is born smoking, you fucking moron. And you won't find the heads of leading quit smoking programs acknowledging that no, actually, their programs don't truly work.
Good God, what is going on with the GOP? It's like they are saying "Look, there's still some scrapings left in the Stupid Pot, tip it!"
While I wouldn't disagree with that remark, this has nothing to do with the GOP or the US. This is one of our home grown loonies.
Wallace is a douchebag. I hope he has finally stepped over the line now, and will lose any support he once boasted. I am an Australian Christian, and the ACL does not represent me at all.
[ 08. September 2012, 08:57: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Whew. For a minute there I thought we were talking about this guy.
So did I.
No, this guy is pretty cool. Most of the time.
IIRC he might have been called to Hell once, though.
quote:
In 2010, Wallis admitted to accepting money for Sojourners from philanthropist George Soros after initially denying having done so. When conservative writer Marvin Olasky pointed this out, and that Soros also financed groups supporting abortion, atheism, and same-sex marriage, in a WORLD magazine column, Wallis said Olasky "lies for a living"; he subsequently apologized to Olasky for the comments.[32][33] In 2011, Wallis acknowledged that Sojourners had received another $150,000.00 from Soros' Open Society Foundation.[34]
In 2010, expressing concern about the growing polarization in American politics, Wallis and other Christian leaders signed on to a document entitled "A Covenant for Civility."[35
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
What I dislike is that the word 'Christian' gets linked to these people.
Exactly.
I no longer identify myself as 'Christian' because of this. If I'm asked the question 'Are you a Christian?' I reply 'What do you mean by Christian?' - and then, usually, my reply is an emphatic 'NO!'
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That Jim Wallace chap seemed to say HIV is still highest amongst gays. Is that true?)
It is true in Australia, yes.
Why?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I take it you'll be able to read a maximum of one line of my post, per day? Given that I answered this in the bit you had to cut out to do your quote!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
And Wallace has done it again.
Jeff Kennett is a former Liberal (ie right of spectrum) Premier of Victoria and Chair of the depression charity beyondblue. Some of Kennett's pronouncements on parenting in particular led to lobbying and to boycotts of beyondblue, including its annual Movember facial hair fundraiser. Kennett has now, in response to that lobbying, changed his attitude; hooray for him.
When the PM pulled out of speaking at the ACL's conference, Kennett offered to step in, saying that he would address the anti-gay rhetoric head-on. He is no longer in politics and so able to do that without fear of electoral repercussions; so should the PM as few of the ACL types would be likely to vote for her anyway. But Jeff Kennett has gone up majorly in my estimation as a result of his change of heart to the point that he's willing to go in and bat against Wallace and that bunch.
Now the ACL has declined the offer. I hardly think that the kind of accusations leveled at Kennett come under the classification of "politely" declining his offer. ACL's media release is rude and arrogant. And if Wallace wants to see "aggressive activist bullying" I don't think he needs to look outside his own organisation.
What a tosser. Further words fail me.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Why?
I take it you'll be able to read a maximum of one line of my post, per day? Given that I answered this in the bit you had to cut out to do your quote!
Your answer was about containment. I was curious as to why the gay population were the initial subset affected.
i.e. you said:
quote:
End result, here in Australia HIV has not tended to spread very far from the groups that happened to be the initial groups affected.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Do be careful you don't trip over the dead horse in the corner. I.E. be sure not to get into a discussion of the rights and wrongs of homosexuality.
Doublethink
Hellhost
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I wasn't going there.
I was just wondering if this Jim Wallace character had any grounds to believe things that homosexuals might do (as opposed to their sexual orientation) might put them at greater risk for certain health issues (i.e. recreational drug use, unprotected sex etc).
Personally, I suspect that's kind of where he is coming from.
But his mistake was to attempt to argue his theological point (i.e. God thinks being gay is wrong) using a rational (i.e. your lifespan may be cut short by association ) basis.
*shrug*
[ 09. September 2012, 07:31: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Wallace is described in the secularist press here as "an Australian Christian leader". He's not anything like that. At best, he could be described as a leader of a group which calls itself Christian - much the same as the Phelps mob in the US. Just to clarify for those who live elsewhere.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Evensong
You appear young to me, internationally when AIDS first started making headlines it was predominantly spreading in two communities Gay men and drug users. That was going on before we got anywhere near treating it or even knowing how the contagion was spreading. Here read the history and you will see why containments means confinement largely to the Gay population.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I was curious as to why the gay population were the initial subset affected.
Statistical fluke. "Patient zero" in the West just happened to be a man who had sex with men.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Wallace is described in the secularist press here as "an Australian Christian leader". He's not anything like that. At best, he could be described as a leader of a group which calls itself Christian - much the same as the Phelps mob in the US. Just to clarify for those who live elsewhere.
It is a clarification that our local newspapers would do well to heed too. The press love to cite the ACL as spokesmen (sexism intended) for "the Church" at large.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I was curious as to why the gay population were the initial subset affected.
Statistical fluke. "Patient zero" in the West just happened to be a man who had sex with men.
Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Wallace is described in the secularist press here as "an Australian Christian leader". He's not anything like that. At best, he could be described as a leader of a group which calls itself Christian - much the same as the Phelps mob in the US. Just to clarify for those who live elsewhere.
It is a clarification that our local newspapers would do well to heed too. The press love to cite the ACL as spokesmen (sexism intended) for "the Church" at large.
There's no reason for them to do that.
Controversy sells papers, not truth.
Btw, a shipmate (who must not be named) was interviewed on ABC radio a few days ago on this very topic. Said shipmate is not keen on the ACL, and is a priest to boot.
[ 09. September 2012, 12:47: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Just for clarification:
quote:
Originally HOSTED by Doublethink:
be sure not to get into a discussion of the rights and wrongs of homosexuality
...followed by:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
theological point (i.e. God thinks being gay is wrong)
Reads a whole lot like a Commandment 6 violation. Take more care.
-RooK
Evil Admin who will suspend/ban people with the slightest excuse
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I was curious as to why the gay population were the initial subset affected.
Statistical fluke. "Patient zero" in the West just happened to be a man who had sex with men.
And was part of a subculture of gay men in which rampant promiscuity and (to a breeder) mindbogglingly high partner counts were the norm. (Dugas' partner count alone was in the thousands.) Recipe for very effective dispersal of a sexually-transmitted disease.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yea, the early history of AIDS is a sad mix of pandemic stupidity and sporadic, reckless heroism. Mainstream folk didn't want to talk about sex, gay folk didn't want to talk about condoms. Gay Leaders were savaged for calling for bath house closures, things like that. Nobody was pure. The only people keeping it real at the time were the scientists, and even some of them were assholes. (Looking at you, Gallo.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I was curious as to why the gay population were the initial subset affected.
Statistical fluke. "Patient zero" in the West just happened to be a man who had sex with men.
And was part of a subculture of gay men in which rampant promiscuity and (to a breeder) mindbogglingly high partner counts were the norm. (Dugas' partner count alone was in the thousands.) Recipe for very effective dispersal of a sexually-transmitted disease.
Indeed, there's evidence that "patient zero" WASN'T literally patient zero, but that earlier cases weren't nearly as effective at spreading the disease around.
Meanwhile, from that earlier link to the history of AIDS, there was this whole 'other' epidemic spreading in central Africa where promiscuous heterosexuality was listed as a risk factor. It took a while for the 2 epidemics to be linked.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Indeed, there's evidence that "patient zero" WASN'T literally patient zero, but that earlier cases weren't nearly as effective at spreading the disease around.
Oh, loads of it. The only reason Dugas got so much attention (both popularly and epidemiologically) was that 1. He was told he had the disease and actively chose to ignore it, and 2. Other patients at CDC clinics came in complaining about him, because he got into the habit of having sex with people and telling them they were infected after the fact. He was Patient Zero because the had a lot of other case studies they could confidently connect him with.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
^ I think the fact that he'd travelled to Africa came into it as well.
That history really is interesting. I didn't know that being Haitian got listed as a risk factor early on in the USA. THAT must have been fun.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(I'm not making this up) TONS of bad Haitian jokes back in the day...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
In the 80s, the vulnerable groups were referred to as the 4 H`s: homosexuals, hemophiliacs, heroin users and Haitians. As pointed out above, the extent and spread of AIDS in Africa among heterosexuals was not appreciated at the time.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Just for clarification:
quote:
Originally HOSTED by Doublethink:
be sure not to get into a discussion of the rights and wrongs of homosexuality
...followed by:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
theological point (i.e. God thinks being gay is wrong)
Reads a whole lot like a Commandment 6 violation. Take more care.
-RooK
Evil Admin who will suspend/ban people with the slightest excuse
Sorry!
Just repeating the article's viewpoint. Not mine!
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Ooh look, he has a friend.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
That would surprise no one in Australia, Demas. Peter Jensen and Jim Wallace would be coming from a very similar place theologically.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
I remain unsure about what point Wallace thinks he is making. This seems tob
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Sorry about that. Here is what I was trying to say.
I remain unsure about what point Wallace thinks he is making. This seems to be the 'logic':
1. Enthymeme: If being is gay is wrong or bad, it will mean that if you are straight you live longer than if you are gay.
2. Straight people live longer on average than gay people.
3. Therefore, being gay is wrong or bad.
The unstated premise seems to be entirely unqualified or unsubstantiated. The reasons for the second premise, as others have pointed out, are not explored. Disease may be a factor; stress anxiety and depression (perhaps from living in an unaccepting society populated by troglodytes like Jim Wallace) may be another.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Dark Knight sez something about:
Enthymeme
Oooh. Lucky me. I just picked up Lanham's A Handlist of Rhetorical Terms! Just in time.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Sorry about that. Here is what I was trying to say.
I remain unsure about what point Wallace thinks he is making. This seems to be the 'logic':
1. Enthymeme: If being is gay is wrong or bad, it will mean that if you are straight you live longer than if you are gay.
2. Straight people live longer on average than gay people.
3. Therefore, being gay is wrong or bad.
The unstated premise seems to be entirely unqualified or unsubstantiated. The reasons for the second premise, as others have pointed out, are not explored. Disease may be a factor; stress anxiety and depression (perhaps from living in an unaccepting society populated by troglodytes like Jim Wallace) may be another.
One of the best responses to Wallace I've seen is basically that he draws a false conclusion from his evidence, because of the premises that lie behind his statement.
The response (in a newspaper letters page) was basically that "Being gay involves risks, so be careful" would possibly be valid. But instead Wallace says "Being gay involves risks, so don't be gay".
Which is about as helpful as my optometrist telling me that because severe short-sightedness carries a higher risk of glaucoma, I shouldn't be severely short-sighted.
Wallace, of course, doesn't see it like that. The interview in the OP has him acknowledging 'friends that have struggled' with their sexuality. Presumably these friends are now ex-gays who, just like ex-smokers have successfully fought off their 'habit'.
By the way, I've also seen a remark (without being able to examine the primary sources myself yet) that Wallace's figure of 20 years loss of life expectancy comes from an old and roundly criticised study based on obituary notices in San Francisco. If this is from the height of the AIDS crisis than the answer is "well, duh".
I give some credence to this remark simply because it fits with Wallace's MO. At one time (and maybe still now, if he didn't shut up after I posted him a link to real facts) he was very fond of saying that marriages lasted for 30 years and same-sex relationships only lasted for 2 years. The 2 years figure is based on a study of gay men in their 20s in non-monogamous relationships. This sleight of hand isn't originally Wallace's, it's originally from a Christian magazine in the USA, but Wallace is more than happy to parrot such stuff without any context.
[ 11. September 2012, 03:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Thank you, orfeo. That makes more sense.
BTW, this:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The response (in a newspaper letters page) was basically that "Being gay involves risks, so be careful" would possibly be valid. But instead Wallace says "Being gay involves risks, so don't be gay".
Which is about as helpful as my optometrist telling me that because severe short-sightedness carries a higher risk of glaucoma, I shouldn't be severely short-sighted.
Nice! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Did you see Lateline tonight btw?
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
In case you didn't, or if anyone else is interested, here is the lateline report.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
One of the things which needs to be observed and stated is that Peter Jensen and Jim Wallace are both superb communicators. Possibly better than their public opponents so far. I think their opposition probably need far better and more experienced public performers. This is a very divisive issue in this country and the opposition really need to put forward their best case via the best presenters.
It is also possible that Jensen and Wallace have the sophistic skills to avoid any real debate as seemed to happen on last Monday's "Four Corners".
Despite the press beat up I don't think a real public debate has started. As so often here the issues are fudged and the important ones sidelined.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
You are there and understand the cuture and mileau best.
But to add from far away, to get strong perfomrers to engage in debate might be to make Jensen and Wallace into serious characters and not the absurdities they must appear given a moment's thought. I would suggest humour and satire - the Private Eye effect as the best method of undermining their postion.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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