Originally posted by Evensong:
May as well join in the fun.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:because we think it's a bad idea to lynch all sex offenders.
But I'm afraid your arguments (AFZ) and Curiosities arguments about not demonising the issue and making it more "normal" fail miserably in actually tackling the issue.
quote:This fits the tune Cwm Rhondda tolerably well.
Evensong, the fount of all knowledge...
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:This fits the tune Cwm Rhondda tolerably well.
Evensong, the fount of all knowledge...
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:You don't happen to have a doctorate do you?
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Her answer to alienfromzog and me, both arguing from personal professional experience…
quote:Evensong, the found of all knowledge
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:This fits the tune Cwm Rhondda tolerably well.
Evensong, the fount of all knowledge...
quote:Although, to be fair, she's mostly pissed off at being called my 'supposed-friend'...
An email entitled A response from your supposed friend:
She’s is treading a fucking fine line, my comments in italics, use if u wish. [I've edited only to sort out the quotes and make things clear - AFZ]
quote:Whilst I fully agree with you that abuse isn’t ‘normal’ and is evil and wrong and no child should be subjected to it, i was trying to give an opinion of how it felt at the time. I know you disagree, but when you have nothing else to compare it to, it is your reality and it is ‘normal’. As a highly intelligent child my brain developed many coping mechanisms including dissociation, that meant I was able to almost totally ignore it, yes I hated it, but it was my ‘normality’ and I didn’t know things could be any other way. As to is it surviving, well yes, i’m still alive, ok psychologically damaged but alive. If I hadn’t had the ability to ‘normalise’ and ‘minimize’ I would probably be dead. As for others being aware and ignoring it, well I can’t really speak for that person, however her reaction was more out of jealousy and shame, after all I had seduced her husband away from her.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Herein lies the problem
Originally posted by alienfromzog's supposed friend:
What goes on within the family is ‘normal’, normalising and minimizing is the only way to survive, especially as others may be aware and also ignore it.
It is not normal. And is it really surviving?
If others are aware of it and ignore it then it is only because it has not been sufficiently drummed into them that it IS NOT NORMAL. It is evil. It is wrong. No child should be subject to that. Ever. Fullstop.
quote:Well in my case by my family, especially my mother, brother and nan. I was the one in the wrong. Yes my father went to prison but I was the one cast out of the family. The point I was also trying to make was that I blamed myself (which is very common) and therefore perceived I would be in trouble, I was the one who had done something wrong. After disclosure in those days it was still treated like a dirty secret, yes my close friends knew, but other than to blame me for the situation and the consequences afterwards, it has never been mentioned by my family.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Demonised by whom?
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Plus add on the fact that they think it is their fault, feel they would also be demonised.
Certainly not demonised by society if society accepted sexual abuse of minors was evil and wrong.
quote:Family breakup or repeated sexual abuse? Which is worse?
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Mmmnnn.....that doesn't sound like the viewpoint of a child. That sounds like an older person speaking.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
For a child to be willing to disclose, they either need to be at breaking point, fully accept it isn’t normal and accept that the ‘backlash’ of telling won’t necessarily make life any easier.
As to accepting "it is not normal": however painful that might be at the time, it may be the less painful option in the long run.
Only a victim can answer that. And likely only in hindsight.
Alienfromzog never claimed I was a child, he said I was a victim of abuse, I am choosing to speak through him as a way of distancing myself because if I had responded in person and you had attacked me like this I would have found it extremely damaging. I would still say 20 years on that disclosing was the worst thing I could have done. I didn’t deliberately disclose, I wrote a letter to a friend telling her why I was upset. Bearing in mind I was 16 at the time, I was totally shocked by the reaction to what I put, as I said before, to me it was ‘normal’. I’m not saying the abuse continuing would have been easy, however I would still argue that I wish I hadn’t disclosed, as it went from a situation that just affected me, to an even more damaging situation affecting my brother and wider family, where I had to leave the family home and my father return there when he left prison.
quote:What would have helped them?
Originally posted by Evensong:
But I'm afraid your arguments (AFZ) and Curiosities arguments about not demonising the issue and making it more "normal" fail miserably in actually tackling the issue.
I still don't see how normalising "the other" helps.
Which is why I keep thinking this particular avenue has to come from child psychs and victims remembering back to when they were in that situation.
Currently sexual abuse is something that comes up in the news as a big shocking story, portraying abusers as monsters. What would have helped me. By choice even now I would never have chosen to disclose the abuse, it was never my intention. Now I was in a slightly strange situation of having no television and generally being isolated at school. The abuse by my Father wasn’t the first time i’d been abused. I was also abused by a slightly older neighbour from 7-9 years old, again that was ‘normal’ I didn’t know any different. So the two things that could possibly have helped me would have been open dialogue about sexual abuse, not demonising people, but more education about sexual issues far younger. I knew it was ‘wrong’ but I wanted friends/love and would allow anything to get attention. When I was older my school and the local health authority were partly at fault for not acting on their concerns and allowing my Father to manipulate the situation. By demonising and making it shocking children are less likely to disclose, teachers/other adults need to be more vigilant to signs and create an ethos in which these sort of things can be openly discussed.
quote:Alienfromzog:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
P.S. It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than...
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:
It is not the same. I only survived physical abuse. The sort of physical abuse that left one of my siblings scarred.
The look of horror and disbelief in the eyes of the adults I tried to tell remains with me. Not from saying anything outright, just the tentative dropping of hints to see if that adult was safe to tell. An expression that was enough to withdraw and stop speaking out, again.
quote:Could you rework it so it fits to Abbots Leigh?
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:Evensong, the found of all knowledge
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:This fits the tune Cwm Rhondda tolerably well.
Evensong, the fount of all knowledge...
Postmodernist and a Christian
We have facts but thou hast blather
And thou wilt not try to listen
Postmodernist, Postmodernist
Blather til we just give up
Blather til we just give up
When you start freely writing
Then the ignorance shall flow
Let the wisdom of your shipmates
Teach you where you should go
Pointless idiot, Pointless idiot
You add nothing to this site
You add nothing to this site
When I read a post by yourself
Let my axious fears subside
It's just ignorance and harmless
Something I should just let slide
In this hell call, In this hell call
There is alway room for thee
There is alway room for thee
quote:What CK has to understand is that people can read her posts and even comprehend them, but still not agree with what she has said. Those who don't agree aren't lying and the disagreement is not any evidence of hypocrisy. At least with Evensong, CK's not just dipping into the barrel of this week's abusive terms.
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I did think it interesting that she was on her second hell call before the first had even dropped to the bottom of the page. The common denominator appears to be that she gets really pissed off if people don't take her opinions as seriously as she thinks they should take them.
I have noticed that people with doctorates are particularly afflicted by this, hence my question up thread.
quote:I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.
Originally posted by Siegfried:
As I may have mentioned before, I can never read that name without recalling an amusing typo back in the old days of the MW board - Evensnog.
quote:Actually I wouldn't do that - it would have been disrespectul to another shipmate - one of your kind - who was active back in the day, and who used Evensnog as her board name.
I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.
quote:Bullshit.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Evensong got called for writing off the experiences of children who have been abused even though, by her own admission she has never been abused herself or worked with abused children or adults abused as children. Separate issues.
quote:I'm much better looking.
Originally posted by PeteC:
Latchkey Kid opined:
quote:Actually I wouldn't do that - it would have been disrespectul to another shipmate - one of your kind - who was active back in the day, and who used Evensnog as her board name.
I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.
I do, often, use Eversmug for the person in question.
ETA : This is Evensnog!
quote:What's wrong with that? You practically live down here anyway.
Originally posted by Evensong:
The hell call seems to morph as you go along. Will it be different tomorrow?
quote:No Evensong, you were called to Hell for being stupid and too arrogant to even listen to what other people are saying. And mostly for dismissing and misrepresenting people who patiently tried to explain to you why what you were asserting was wrong.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Bullshit.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Evensong got called for writing off the experiences of children who have been abused even though, by her own admission she has never been abused herself or worked with abused children or adults abused as children. Separate issues.
The hell call seems to morph as you go along. Will it be different tomorrow?
quote:This is absolute bollocks. Some progress has been made but it remains problematic for children to disclose and be believed (which is one of the things I highlighted on the original thread - the vital need for people to believe victims).
Originally posted by Evensong:
I said children are better off these days because society has finally said IT IS WRONG than they were in the past when kiddie fiddling was often known about and ignored. Kids in the past would be ignored or perhaps even told it was "their fault". Those in positions of authority that were told would sweep it under the carpet.
Not so anymore. Thank God.
You seem to want to have your cake and it it too. You want society to be outraged about pedophilia, but not react with horror when they are told by a child.
quote:Couldn't agree more. But I would also add that those working closely with children should be trained in responding appropriately to such situations.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
And, whilst the research is sketchy in this area, what protects children is education about how to respond to dangerous situations and means for them to disclose.
quote:You're confusing mass hysteria with individual response here. Or are you saying individuals respond with mass hysteria when children try to disclose?
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Screaming about evil paedophiles who should be lynched is great but as my friend (Marvin-the-paranoid-android) was trying to tell you that had no connection at all with the situation she was in.
quote:Missed this from your earlier post. But I agree with it.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
I can think of two adults who first disclosed to me the abuse that happened to them as young teenagers. I can tell you of others who when they first disclosed the reaction of shock and horror was so damaging because they felt completely rejected. If you look at the research, feelings of 'being dirty' or 'to blame' or just 'different' are typical articulation of how rejected victims feel when the person they disclose to reacts in this way. (They often feel this way anyway but it is enhanced by the reaction) It is vital if you care about the victim of abuse to not react in this way. To listen and however shocked, not show shock. To absorb and deal with your feelings later.
quote:Evensong,
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're confusing mass hysteria with individual response here. Or are you saying individuals respond with mass hysteria when children try to disclose?
quote:I took that as meaning that, when a child tells a trusted adult that s/he has been abused, you think that the adult should react with horror.
You want society to be outraged about pedophilia, but not react with horror when they are told by a child.
quote:I agree with you. It is important to note - as Doublethink pointed out on the Purgatory thread - that whilst a significant proportion of abusers were themselves abused, the vast majority of victims do not become abusers.
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
IMO one of the worst things to have happened from media coverage is the armchair psychologists that throw around the idea that the abused become abusers. This makes it incredibly difficult for the abused to speak out at all - even among trusted friends and family for fear of being ostracised and labelled an abuser or potential abuser. That thought is truly horrifying to those who have been abused and makes daily life coping with what has already happened a million times harder than it already is.
quote:I'm not sure why you're not following the argument - maybe I'm not being as clear as I think I am. Anyways, what Curiosity said.
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't know what you're hoping for here. If she spoke up and it was considered "normal" as she considered it "normal" WTF would there be to speak up about??
quote:Now, of course the Ship is not a place for therapy. And that is why Marvin and I have been debating this by email. I asked to quote her because I thought it pertinent. That's where that post on Purgatory came from.
From Marvin:
Evensong to try and do explain how your comments may be interpreted by others and explain why I disagree with some of your assertions
quote:So you don’t feel you wrote off the ‘experiences of children who have been abused’?!!
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Bullshit.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Evensong got called for writing off the experiences of children who have been abused even though, by her own admission she has never been abused herself or worked with abused children or adults abused as children. Separate issues.
The hell call seems to morph as you go along. Will it be different tomorrow?
Firstly it took quite a lot of strength on my part to decide to post through AFZ and did result in us debating whether I should really be looking at this thread as it is possibly unhelpful to me. However I felt I have a perspective on this issue that may be helpful, in that I am a survivor of abuse, I have met many other survivors of abuse and I was a teacher working with 10 – 14 year olds. As a teacher I was luckily not on the receiving end of any disclosures, however did work closely with some ‘at risk’ children and children already within the care system. This unfortunately allowed me to observe some less than helpful attitudes amongst pupils and staff.
So why do I perceive you wrote off my experiences?
Firstly you referred to me as AFZ’s 'supposed friend', now yes that could be taken several ways, none of which complimentary. Now due to years of abuse I don’t form friendships easily and don’t trust people (this is common amongst victims of abuse) As a consequence of this I often doubt both myself and those around me as to whether they are really my friend or not. Ok AFZ is my friend and I trust him, but even then i’m not always sure, because why would he be willing to be my friend and travel this road with me, despite the pain and strife I put him through. That particular day I was debating do I really care about him, so that further kicked into that. Now yes you weren’t to know that, however casting doubt on that sort of thing to a victim of abuse will often cause doubt. I also felt guilty that you were attacking AFZ because of my words.
It may have been a clumsy approach on your behalf however your response to my points about it being ‘normal’ to an abused child, felt like you were implying that I must be stupid as I was wrong. Lacking acknowledgement that you understood where I was coming from.
You challenged the fact that a victim may feel demonised? How dare you challenge a statement of fact. I was demonised, still am by the same people. Now ok I wrote it in the third person so that may have confused you, however I wasn’t necessarily aware of doing so as it is a protective strategy I use subconsciously.
You seem to not realise that often before the sexual abuse occurs there is grooming of a victim, there is the threats, lies and blame throughout. When that is all you hear day after day it is what you believe an in some cases continue to deeply believe, even though rationally you know otherwise.
To disclose a child needs to come to have some trust in the person they choose to tell, now yes all adults working with children are taught how to react to disclosure. However many children may exhibit maladaptive behaviours or coping strategies and how these are dealt with is also important. Many abused children become hyper-vigilant and necessity to survival, however that also means they pick up on treatment of others and general reactions to events of others around them. Unfortunately as a teacher I witnessed appalling reactions to self harm (from staff and pupils alike) and as this is often a behaviour exhibited by abuse victims, how much worse must they imagine the reaction to disclosing would be.
I choose not to (unless necessary) tell people about my background, it’s bad enough people finding out I have mental health issues without them additionally finding out the reasons. Yes it is a horrendous thing to happen to a child (I would add if it isn’t you, yes I now accept it has damaged me, but often still argue that, that is my fault) However some people’s reactions to the disclosure that you were abused as a child are unhelpful. A selection of responses I have received, ‘oh that explains it we always knew there was something odd about you’ (A senior manager in a school) is the only quote that sticks in my mind, however usually a combination of pity, shock or voyeuristic responses. The first two usually followed by the topic being totally ignored thereafter and you treated differently.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
quote:our newest Hellhost!
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
2) Now have a fantastic image of you with a bowler hat and a pitch-fork combination. (Kind of an English demon...)
quote:Claret: see my post above:
Originally posted by claret10:
Having read through the threads, the point you seem to be missing Evensong is that children who are being abused see the public hysteria, the demonising of offenders and in some cases the persecution of offenders.
If they come to a point of realising what is going on in their life is not 'normal'and wish to disclose, it is likely that this sort of hysteria would deter them, As they would not wish to put their abuser through that sort of ordeal.
How is an abused child to know that in disclosing to a professional that they will act in a helpful way, when all they see publicised is mass hysteria!!
quote:No. And I responded to the this issue above in my post to AFZ. There is a difference between individual, societal, first off and considered/appropriate reactions.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:Evensong,
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're confusing mass hysteria with individual response here. Or are you saying individuals respond with mass hysteria when children try to disclose?
As I read it, that was you:
quote:I took that as meaning that, when a child tells a trusted adult that s/he has been abused, you think that the adult should react with horror.
You want society to be outraged about pedophilia, but not react with horror when they are told by a child.
quote:Wrong again.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
And when called on this - when we (Curiosity, myself and others) tried to explain to you why simply demonising was not a good idea, you accused us of not caring, of not seeing how evil abuse is.
quote:Yes. As the ship's post-modernist you should know that you do not get to tell me how I did interpret your words when I first read them. I am aware that the meaning I derived is not the one you intended but it is still what I thought you were saying until I read your later post.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:No. And I responded to the this issue above in my post to AFZ. There is a difference between individual, societal, first off and considered/appropriate reactions.
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:Evensong,
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're confusing mass hysteria with individual response here. Or are you saying individuals respond with mass hysteria when children try to disclose?
As I read it, that was you:
quote:I took that as meaning that, when a child tells a trusted adult that s/he has been abused, you think that the adult should react with horror.
You want society to be outraged about pedophilia, but not react with horror when they are told by a child.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Viva postmodernism.
quote:PeteC,
Originally posted by PeteC:
Latchkey Kid opined:
quote:Actually I wouldn't do that - it would have been disrespectul to another shipmate - one of your kind - who was active back in the day, and who used Evensnog as her board name.
I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.
ETA : This is Evensnog!
quote:Really? So what does this mean then?
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Wrong again.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
And when called on this - when we (Curiosity, myself and others) tried to explain to you why simply demonising was not a good idea, you accused us of not caring, of not seeing how evil abuse is.
I just disagreed with your assessment of demonisation as unhelpful. I still do.
quote:Am I misreading or misinterpreting you here? And this was before you critiqued an abuse-survivor on her survival strategies.
Originally posted by Evensong:
Then I recommend you offer suggestions on how best to help these children rather than just give those of us that see the serious evil in the problem such a hard time for our passion.
quote:No. Because it really matters. And besides - as I said, it's not the disagreement that brought about the Hell-call.
Originally posted by Evensong:
So lets agree to disagree.
quote:Australians are a kind, right?
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:PeteC,
Originally posted by PeteC:
Latchkey Kid opined:
quote:Actually I wouldn't do that - it would have been disrespectul to another shipmate - one of your kind - who was active back in the day, and who used Evensnog as her board name.
I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.
ETA : This is Evensnog!
What do you mean by "your kind"? The link does not give the answer.
quote:And I suppose I am a kind of Australian. The pommy* bastard kind.
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:Australians are a kind, right?
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:PeteC,
Originally posted by PeteC:
Latchkey Kid opined:
quote:Actually I wouldn't do that - it would have been disrespectul to another shipmate - one of your kind - who was active back in the day, and who used Evensnog as her board name.
I thought that was just PeteC's Hell epithet for her for a while.
ETA : This is Evensnog!
What do you mean by "your kind"? The link does not give the answer.
quote:Was it somebody else who wrote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Btw, I never advocated for hysteria
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Oh I think it absolutely does.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
... the mass hysteria does not in any way make children safer.
quote:An impressive attempt to take a verse out of context. Well done. Good try.
Originally posted by Alwyn:
quote:Was it somebody else who wrote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Btw, I never advocated for hysteria
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Oh I think it absolutely does.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
... the mass hysteria does not in any way make children safer.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm done here.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
quote:A pathetic attempt to wriggle out of a tight spot of one's own making.
Originally posted by Evensong:
An impressive attempt to take a verse out of context. Well done. Good try.
quote:I've read every post you've made to the thread in question, and you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You're just getting high on outrage so that you can feel good about how righteous and less accepting of evil you are than anyone else.
Originally posted by Evensong:
I guess you ignored the rest of the post too then.
quote:On reflection Alywn, I suspect you may have a point.
Originally posted by Alwyn:
quote:Was it somebody else who wrote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Btw, I never advocated for hysteria
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Oh I think it absolutely does.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
... the mass hysteria does not in any way make children safer.
quote:Funny how people see it that way. Must be an insecurity thing.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You're just getting high on outrage so that you can feel good about how righteous and less accepting of evil you are than anyone else.
quote:Personally, I think you are making a false distinction between hysteria and demonization. This post on the Purg thread by mo prophet is a good example of both demonization and hysteria in my opinion.
Originally posted by Evensong:
So it's important in the short term but consistent, long term demonisation is better at effecting structuralised and consolidated change.
quote:Funny how some people are completely incapable of seeing themselves as others see them. Dangerous property for a clergyperson to have.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Funny how people see it that way. Must be an insecurity thing.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You're just getting high on outrage so that you can feel good about how righteous and less accepting of evil you are than anyone else.
quote:I already explained why demonisation is important.
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:Personally, I think you are making a false distinction between hysteria and demonization. This post on the Purg thread by mo prophet is a good example of both demonization and hysteria in my opinion.
Originally posted by Evensong:
So it's important in the short term but consistent, long term demonisation is better at effecting structuralised and consolidated change.
Be that as it may, I draw your attention to the above excerpt. Why do you think demonization of sexual abusers will lead to structuralised and consolidated change? I asked you for support for this thesis on the Purg thread, but you only provided more conjecture.
quote:I'm capable of seeing myself as others see me. I'm just not afraid their disapproval if I believe passionately in something that differs from what others believe.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Funny how some people are completely incapable of seeing themselves as others see them. Dangerous property for a clergyperson to have.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Funny how people see it that way. Must be an insecurity thing.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You're just getting high on outrage so that you can feel good about how righteous and less accepting of evil you are than anyone else.
quote:False dichotomy if ever I saw one. The options are not 1. Total suppression vs 2. Hysteria.
Originally posted by Evensong:
Let's flip the issue around.
Would you prefer to return to societal attitudes and governance systems from 50 to 100 years ago? Were they really better than they are now? No. Why? Because pedophilia has been named as a social evil.
Previously it was swept under the carpet.
Things are better now.
quote:They are not examples of anything of the sort. I know some of the people involved in those committees and clergy training re standards etc. They are not about demonization of abusers, but protecting children. As people here have explained to you umpteen times, they are not the same thing. Why can't you see that, and how unhelpful your attitude is?
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:I already explained why demonisation is important.
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:Personally, I think you are making a false distinction between hysteria and demonization. This post on the Purg thread by mo prophet is a good example of both demonization and hysteria in my opinion.
Originally posted by Evensong:
So it's important in the short term but consistent, long term demonisation is better at effecting structuralised and consolidated change.
Be that as it may, I draw your attention to the above excerpt. Why do you think demonization of sexual abusers will lead to structuralised and consolidated change? I asked you for support for this thesis on the Purg thread, but you only provided more conjecture.
As to support for my thesis, things like Professional Standards Committees in the church governance systems is an example of how demonisation has helped.
quote:You certainly haven't demonstrated any of that. As others have pointed out, your rather monolithic take on history in regard to this issue is nowhere are near nuanced enough. Having witnessed some of the panic associated with risk management, in regard to this issue (and particularly as an Australian, where it appears our people have failed to learn after a very disturbing set of historical precedents that taking children away from their parents is usually not the best course of action), I am not at all convinced things are better now. I certainly haven't been by you.
Let's flip the issue around.
Would you prefer to return to societal attitudes and governance systems from 50 to 100 years ago? Were they really better than they are now? No. Why? Because pedophilia has been named as a social evil.
Previously it was swept under the carpet.
Things are better now.
quote:Maybe. A child's mind is an extraordinary thing, and sometimes it works in ways that we could not anticipate. I one of the most disturbing films I have ever seen, [/QB][/QUOTE]
Kids trying to disclose will be taken alot more seriously now than they would have in the past.
quote:Given what we know about abuse occurring in state care, at least around this neck of the woods, how about we call that 'Plan Z'?
Might this mean families may be separated by child protection services? Yes. Is this a good thing? In some cases - yes.
quote:And wrong each time, IMO.
But I've said this already umpteen times.....
quote:Ah, so you look in the mirror and see a douchebag every morning, and think, "Yeah, this is a good look, I'm going with this today!"
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm capable of seeing myself as others see me.
quote:You should show this side on the Ship. Could be an interesting change from your usual assholity.
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm capable of seeing myself as others see me.
quote:I hesitate to deflect this thread from what it was formulated to discuss, within its place in Hell, to make this comment. Perhaps if further discussion is wanted, we can return to the Purg thread.
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Personally, I think you are making a false distinction between hysteria and demonization. This post on the Purg thread by mo prophet is a good example of both demonization and hysteria in my opinion.
Be that as it may, I draw your attention to the above excerpt. Why do you think demonization of sexual abusers will lead to structuralised and consolidated change? I asked you for support for this thesis on the Purg thread, but you only provided more conjecture.
quote:I'm not calling you a louse, but Robbie Burns has better insight IMO
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm capable of seeing myself as others see me. I'm just not afraid their disapproval if I believe passionately in something that differs from what others believe.
An excellent property for a clergyperson to have.
quote:It is quite possible to project an incorrect view of yourself onto others so you can dismiss it.
O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An' foolish notion
quote:In the US, I see the demonization problem in people's response to someone's registration as a sexual offender after release rather than the length of sentence. This is not to say that there should be no public registration, but that public response to it should be more nuanced than large demonstrations with picket signs saying "NOT IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD!"
For offences not involving violence (what an oxymoron!), the lengths of sentence for sexual assault involving penetration (rape) is 4 years on average so prosecutors stated. For sexual assault on a child where it has not involved penetration, and most don't, it is oral sex and masturbation, it is less, with many guilty pleas involving what is called "provincial time" to be served in different jails of 2 years less one day.
I'm having trouble reconciling this with the suggested demonisation problem, and, have trouble understanding how advocacy on the behalf of offenders is appropriate when those they have harmed have lost so much.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
quote:Yes well.....not much point in carrying on the conversation then is there?
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
And wrong each time, IMO.
quote:May as well join in the fun.
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I'm not calling you a louse
quote:The games in The Circus are more fun.
Originally posted by Evensong:
May as well join in the fun.
quote:What do you mean by "advocacy on behalf of offenders"?
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'm having trouble reconciling this with the suggested demonisation problem, and, have trouble understanding how advocacy on the behalf of offenders is appropriate when those they have harmed have lost so much.
quote:And the debates in Purgatory are so much more suitable for the more in-depth exchanges on this thread.
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:The games in The Circus are more fun.
Originally posted by Evensong:
May as well join in the fun.
quote:Truly a new day has dawned in Hell.
Pretty please?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
quote:Actually, I would consider a Murano dagger for the more extreme cases.
Originally posted by RooK:
I say you ought to be more worried about the sort of Hellhost who slowly inserts the tines of the pitchfork into your spleen whilst being polite. Those with the hasty jabbing motion are less precise, and have a more difficult time twisting it while embedded.
quote:Loquacious, I enjoy a good popcorn-eating Hell thread as much as the next alien and whilst Evensong has displayed pseudo-Troll* behaviour, I feel your comments are inappropriate.
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Of course, I realize that the Hell thread does not exist solely to entertain and amuse Shipmates, but...
quote:
Pseudo-Troll n. A pseudo-troll is one who displays troll-like posting but unlike the true-troll lacks the wit and insight to realise how provocative their posts are. Whilst a true-troll will post in order to generate responses for their own entertainment, a pseudo-troll seems to actually believe their ridiculous pronouncements.
The main danger of the pseudo-troll is that the correct response is unclear. Everyone knows that starvation is the way to treat a true-troll as in the great maxim Don't feed the troll - indeed in the Good Old Days™ feeding a troll would usually result in an Alligator bite to one's legs. It seems a pseudo-troll needs to be slapped down to stop them spreading their misinformed views.
quote:Do you have a small dick?
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Specifically she accuse those of us who disagreed with her of not caring about child abuse as much as she did.
quote:I don't recall specifically critiquing the child abuse survivor on her methods of survival at all.
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Not to mention, critiquing an abuse survivor on how she managed to survive!
quote:Armageddon?
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Now, when Marvin and I start agreeing on things you know something serious is going on...
quote:Turns out THEY caused Sandy.
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:Armageddon?
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Now, when Marvin and I start agreeing on things you know something serious is going on...
quote:Yep. It wasn't a butterfly flapping its wings in Malaysia, it was me farting after having beans on toast.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Turns out THEY caused Sandy.
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:Armageddon?
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Now, when Marvin and I start agreeing on things you know something serious is going on...
quote:Most impressive. Because I think I spelt your name wrong.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Whoah, I have a small electronic indicator which beeps when my name is mentioned.
quote:I was referring to this post where you mentioned demonisation might be argued to help kids come forward.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
What are you saying that I said? Citation please.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, there are also counter-arguments, for example, that it might give some kids the courage to come forward.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:Sorry, my last post criss-crossed.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Most impressive. Because I think I spelt your name wrong.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Whoah, I have a small electronic indicator which beeps when my name is mentioned.
quote:I was referring to this post where you mentioned demonisation might be argued to help kids come forward.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
What are you saying that I said? Citation please.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Of course, there are also counter-arguments, for example, that it might give some kids the courage to come forward.
quote:..... and as ever "challenged."
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
I jumped straight to page 3 and THAT was the first post. Left me feeling strangely dirty......
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Do you have a small dick?
I don't recall specifically saying you did not care about child abuse as much as I did.
I just disagreed with your method and I think small dick syndrome and projection took over from there.
quote:==========================
Originally posted by Evensong:
Then I recommend you offer suggestions on how best to help these children rather than just give those of us that see the serious evil in the problem such a hard time for our passion.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't recall specifically critiquing the child abuse survivor on her methods of survival at all.
Survivial methods are precisely that. They help survival. They have no right or wrong about them.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:Evensong, please show me where either Curiosity or I suggested we should normalise sexual abuse? I think you might struggle with that one.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Herein lies the problem
Originally posted by alienfromzog's supposed friend:
What goes on within the family is ‘normal’, normalising and minimizing is the only way to survive, especially as others may be aware and also ignore it.
It is not normal. And is it really surviving?
<SNIP>
quote:Mmmnnn.....that doesn't sound like the viewpoint of a child. That sounds like an older person speaking.
Originally posted by alienfromzog [quoting my friend]:
For a child to be willing to disclose, they either need to be at breaking point, fully accept it isn’t normal and accept that the ‘backlash’ of telling won’t necessarily make life any easier.
As to accepting "it is not normal": however painful that might be at the time, it may be the less painful option in the long run.
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:Loquacious, I enjoy a good popcorn-eating Hell thread as much as the next alien and whilst Evensong has displayed pseudo-Troll* behaviour, I feel your comments are inappropriate.
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Of course, I realize that the Hell thread does not exist solely to entertain and amuse Shipmates, but...
The topic under debate here is extremely sensitive and...
VARIOUS SELF-RIGHTEOUS BLATHER
So, I'm sorry for the lack of entertainment but I think you're on the wrong thread for that.
AFZ
quote:Not one thing I said above had anything to do with Purgatory discussions, so I am certain Sioni wasn't talking to me - okay?
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Loquacious beachcomber, In fact, Sioni Sais as the newest Hell host is asking Purgatorial discussion gets taken to Purgatory.
quote:Feeling a bit crap today so...
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
However, if insulting me makes you feel better then please feel free to carry on.
AFZ
quote:As an english person i take huge offence at your arogant assumption that we all where bowler hats. How dare you be so presumtious and ignorant.
Originally posted by alienfromzog: 2) Now have a fantastic image of you with a bowler hat and a pitch-fork combination. (Kind of an English demon...)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
now i feel so much better ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by claret10:
quote:Feeling a bit crap today so...
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
However, if insulting me makes you feel better then please feel free to carry on.
AFZ
You are a smelly green alien with stupid antenae. Your brain is too big for your head. It must look very strange beside your small dick.
quote:As an english person i take huge offence at your arogant assumption that we all where bowler hats. How dare you be so presumtious and ignorant.
Originally posted by alienfromzog: 2) Now have a fantastic image of you with a bowler hat and a pitch-fork combination. (Kind of an English demon...)
Mmmmmm
quote:Have you considered not clicking on them, or leaving them as soon as you find them tedious?
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Ummmm - maybe there is another reason why I find Evensong's Hell calls in general and this one in particular to be tedious, annoying, and almost completely pointless.
quote:Thanks for that.
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
On reflection, I also have my "hot button" issues; gun control being at the top of the list.
To those on the thread whom I have offended by failing to recognize that they, too, have hot button issues, I sincerely apologize.
quote:I did better than that on this one, Moo; I got Curiosity Killed... alienfromzog and Evensong to agree on something, perhaps thereby allowing the thread to be closed!
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:Have you considered not clicking on them, or leaving them as soon as you find them tedious?
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Ummmm - maybe there is another reason why I find Evensong's Hell calls in general and this one in particular to be tedious, annoying, and almost completely pointless.
Moo
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
quote:* Silently thanks the lord for small mercies... *
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Whichever way, it doesn’t matter because you are trouble maker, and I am going to return to my usual policy of ignoring you because you talk a lot of bollocks.
quote:That's what this thread was about, although it quickly wandered off into other areas.
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
At the risk of being unhellish, I worry that attitudes like evensongs, lead to people seeing abusers as 'some wierdo that is out there somewhere'.
Then they keep their kids locked up inside to keep them 'safe' when reality they may be locking their kids up with their abusers...
quote:Not in all cases. One song referred to upthread from that era was quite explicit: Young Girl by Gary Puckett and the Union Gap. Not only do the lyrics describe the girl in question as "just a baby in disguise", but it puts the responsibility on the girl for whatever happens 'cause he just can't resist if she hangs around.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:That's what this thread was about, although it quickly wandered off into other areas.
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
At the risk of being unhellish, I worry that attitudes like evensongs, lead to people seeing abusers as 'some wierdo that is out there somewhere'.
Then they keep their kids locked up inside to keep them 'safe' when reality they may be locking their kids up with their abusers...
Listening to pop songs of the 60s and 70s, so many of them sang about 'little girl' as the endearment of choice.
This bothers me since the Jimmy Saville horrors.
But (I hope) I'm just over-thinking it.
quote:But you did read the bit where Zacchaeus said his/her family believed him/her but didn't help him? Because they were too busy trying to protect the abuser from an hysterial reaction? That would seem to be the crucial part of that paragraph.
Originally posted by Evensong:
Zacchaeus. I believe responding to your very personal post in this forum would be wholly inappropriate so I'm not going to.
I will just say that I'm glad to hear your family believed you.
quote:It's all about you. Empathy of a wolverine.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:* Silently thanks the lord for small mercies... *
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Whichever way, it doesn’t matter because you are trouble maker, and I am going to return to my usual policy of ignoring you because you talk a lot of bollocks.
quote:Come off it mousethief - she'd just exposed her human side:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:It's all about you. Empathy of a wolverine.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:* Silently thanks the lord for small mercies... *
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Whichever way, it doesn’t matter because you are trouble maker, and I am going to return to my usual policy of ignoring you because you talk a lot of bollocks.
quote:and we were all completely convinced by it. There was no way she'd realised that she'd fallen to the wrong side of that line on which she likes to teeter, no sign at all. I mean, she hasn't even mentioned vaccination yet.
Zacchaeus. I believe responding to your very personal post in this forum would be wholly inappropriate so I'm not going to.
quote:lay off the wolverines. I know wolverines, wolverines are my friends. Evensong is no wolverine.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Empathy of a wolverine.
quote:Yeah, that last sentence is crucial, though.
Originally posted by no prophet:
Weasels are my friends. They eat mice. They eat rats. They eat tree rats (squirrels). They do a general clean-up of varmits. Then they move on.
quote:He lays into me. I return the favor and I'm unempathetic?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:It's all about you. Empathy of a wolverine.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:* Silently thanks the lord for small mercies... *
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Whichever way, it doesn’t matter because you are trouble maker, and I am going to return to my usual policy of ignoring you because you talk a lot of bollocks.
quote:she would need three promotions to make it too weasel.
Originally posted by comet:
quote:lay off the wolverines. I know wolverines, wolverines are my friends. Evensong is no wolverine.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Empathy of a wolverine.
please. she's barely a weasel.
quote:As Resident Weasel [according to Her Smudgiekins] I'm not sure if I should be grateful or offended at that exchange.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:she would need three promotions to make it too weasel.
Originally posted by comet:
quote:lay off the wolverines. I know wolverines, wolverines are my friends. Evensong is no wolverine.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Empathy of a wolverine.
please. she's barely a weasel.
FLy Safe, Pyx_e
quote:This brings in the broader issue about male sexuality and the inability of a fair proportion of men [but not all] to think with anything other than their dick - it is ALWAYS the fault of the victim, they obviously acted so provocatively.
Originally posted by Niteowl:
...but it puts the responsibility on the girl for whatever happens 'cause he just can't resist if she hangs around.
quote:For the love of Christ, Evensong, have you never heard of empathy or compassion? Z has been through hell. You're an alleged follower of Christ, to the point that you've actually been to college about it, or something.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:He lays into me. I return the favor and I'm unempathetic?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:It's all about you. Empathy of a wolverine.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:* Silently thanks the lord for small mercies... *
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Whichever way, it doesn’t matter because you are trouble maker, and I am going to return to my usual policy of ignoring you because you talk a lot of bollocks.
You got a logic problem there.
Unless of course you believe Zacchaues should be immune from nasty responses when he dishes them out (for some odd reason) ?
Fuck that shit.
quote:It is, it was, and it probably always will be.
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Was it completely beyond you to just say something along the lines of 'I'm so sorry' and leave it at that??
quote:Having the desired affect.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Define working.
quote:He laid into you BECAUSE you're unempathetic, you amnesiac mouth-breathing weasel.
Originally posted by Evensong:
He lays into me. I return the favor and I'm unempathetic?
quote:What would you say the desired effect was, out of curiosity?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:Having the desired affect.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Define working.
quote:It reminds me of this party political poster from the late 70s. It's not working on so many levels.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:What would you say the desired effect was, out of curiosity?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:Having the desired affect.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Define working.
quote:It seemed a fairly simple question. Is your evasion due to the fact that that you don't know, or you won't say?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:It reminds me of this party political poster from the late 70s. It's not working on so many levels.
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]What would you say the desired effect was, out of curiosity?
quote:When I said "desired affect" I meant that the thread is not affecting Evensong (i.e. influencing behavioural change) positively. It isn't working. It is an ineffective thread. The rule is 'e’ for result and cause, and ‘a’ for influence and response.
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Well as I accept, that evensong will never admit, that view other than her own might be valid, the desired effect for me is that others might see she really doesn’t know what she is talking about.
However I don’t know how we can ever judge whether my desired effect has worked or not..
What is your desired effect then DM?
quote:Hmm. Perhaps. Anyway. My point is that the thread isn't making Evensong change.
Originally posted by mousethief:
No. "Affect" as a noun means "emotion."
quote:I don't dislike Evensong at all, neither do I find her irritating.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Working as in providing a thread that really is all about Evensong so she doesn't feel the need to take over yet another Hell thread? Acting as containment?
quote:So that's what you think the purpose of the thread is? Finally, a straight answer. I don't think that was the purpose of the thread. Curiosity admitted in the 4th post of the thread that that wasn't going to happen, and that he had other reasons for starting the thread. You did read the thread, I hope?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:Hmm. Perhaps. Anyway. My point is that the thread isn't making Evensong change.
Originally posted by mousethief:
No. "Affect" as a noun means "emotion."
quote:Yes, I read the thread. I guess I find it hard to work out why so many people are posting on a hell call which isn't intended to effect change in the person it's about. If the point really is simply gang abuse - and you're all comfortable with that - then crack on. But, as they say on Dragon's Den, I'm out.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:So that's what you think the purpose of the thread is? Finally, a straight answer. I don't think that was the purpose of the thread. Curiosity admitted in the 4th post of the thread that that wasn't going to happen, and that he had other reasons for starting the thread. You did read the thread, I hope?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:Hmm. Perhaps. Anyway. My point is that the thread isn't making Evensong change.
Originally posted by mousethief:
No. "Affect" as a noun means "emotion."
quote:Shrug. Was this all a setup for a flounce then? Poor show.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
But, as they say on Dragon's Den, I'm out.
quote:The priest at my dad's church is like that, annoys the hell out of him. But my dad has to admit the guy gives good sermons and has kept the church in the financial black.
Originally posted by Porridge:
True dat. (in response to Lyda Rose)
Not being a long-term churchgoer, I do wonder: are imperviousness and insensitivity generally considered desirable qualities in a clergywhatsit?
quote:I'm not trying to put on a show. I'm saying that this thread is, in my opinion, in danger of turning into bullying.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Shrug. Was this all a setup for a flounce then? Poor show.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
But, as they say on Dragon's Den, I'm out.
quote:Or just people airing their feelings about a shipmate who has proven time and time again a nasty little shit when it comes to respecting other people's feelings and other people's experiences.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:I'm not trying to put on a show. I'm saying that this thread is, in my opinion, in danger of turning into bullying.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Shrug. Was this all a setup for a flounce then? Poor show.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
But, as they say on Dragon's Den, I'm out.
quote:You've lost me here.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Yeah, because only Nice People™ can get bullied,
quote:Returning abuse for abuse to an abusive person is bullying? Maybe. I'd say it's closer to self-defense.
and it isn't real bullying if we think we've got good reason for being abusive? Nice.
quote:Um, no. that's not what I said. But you apparently aren't capable of hearing what I'm saying, so there's no point in trying to explain it again. Go ahead with your flounce; I shan't bother you again on this.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Let me get this straight. You think that shipmates should be free to engage en masse in protracted periods of pointless personal abuse against an individual simply because those shipmates don't like that individual or that individual's behaviour? OK...
quote:To be honest with you I thought about leaving the "extended periods of time" bit off the end of that sentence because I don't really think it's ever OK to verbally abuse a person en masse for the purposes cathartic retribution. But, since you ask, in my experience one or two days worth of remonstration is enough on the Ship of Fools.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
How long would you define as extended ?
quote:Whatever about ES, why are you insisting he's "flouncing" (which we usually mean as leaving the boards) when he's just leaving the thread? What do you care what he does?
Originally posted by mousethief:
Go ahead with your flounce; I shan't bother you again on this.
quote:Calling someone a nasty little shit weasel (or whatever) has got nothing whatsoever to do with challenging someone's behaviour. Nothing.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Hang on, daronmedway, so we're not allowed to challenge behaviour of others? And if you had read the thread, you'd have noticed that much of this is challenging behaviour. The abuse is not coming from one direction, only.
quote:We teach children that two wrongs do not make a right.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The abuse is not coming from one direction, only.
quote:Each time I've seen it.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Exactly how many times in how many incarnations have you protested this issue now ?
quote:Yes.
Originally posted by no prophet:
daronmedway:
Is your part of your point that the issues seem unresolvable?
quote:Yes. I think the certain shipmates are attracted the hell-calls like bluebottles to excrement. They are the ones who ramp up the free-floating hostility and essentially derail the thread from reaching any kind of satisfactory resolution.
And the manner of discourse in Hell is a factor in the lack of resolution?
quote:Ah, the mysterious non-exiistent practice of dog-piling. Double-think is going to love you for bringing that little grenade into the conversation.
The Hell call seems to have come about because of sequence of dialogue in a Purgatory thread. Then other, past things were introduced, at least impressionistically. I seem to recall some discussion of a "dog pile" board or concept on the Ship at some point in the not so distant past. It may be that this thread approaches that concept.
quote:We are all responsible for what we post. I get that. We're all adults and are here voluntarily. I get that too. We can all post as much insulting and abusive ordure as we like. No. No. I don't get that. I don't get that at all.
Originally posted by comet:
oh Numpty, shut the fuck up. you know as well as the rest of us that if you don't like it, you don't have to read it. Evensong knows that as well. She chooses to respond, and people are going to react to it. She's not physically cornered somewhere, she can walk away. So can you. I know you just adore seeking out offense wherever you can find it, but that's your problem, not ours. quit trying to pass off your own dysfunction. it's beyond old.
quote:Can I make personal plea for the "aiming for funny" part of the crew to be added to this list please?
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
To me it's not so much bullying as a bunch of angry people cluelessly whipping an erotic masochist.
quote:Huh?
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
No, because that hits too close to home, historically. How DARE you. Criticize anyone but me.
quote:The Board Guidelines. are pretty clear. If you want to dish it out in Hell, then you have to be prepared to take it. No one gets a free pass.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:We are all responsible for what we post. I get that. We're all adults and are here voluntarily. I get that too. We can all post as much insulting and abusive ordure as we like. No. No. I don't get that. I don't get that at all.
Originally posted by comet:
oh Numpty, shut the fuck up. you know as well as the rest of us that if you don't like it, you don't have to read it. Evensong knows that as well. She chooses to respond, and people are going to react to it. She's not physically cornered somewhere, she can walk away. So can you. I know you just adore seeking out offense wherever you can find it, but that's your problem, not ours. quit trying to pass off your own dysfunction. it's beyond old.
Old offences give rise to old complaints, I'm afraid.
quote:For the record, I publicly stated that I'm opting out of a certain kind of abusive posting in hell, not this thread.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Having said all of that-- another pet peeve. Jesus God, Daron <snip>, if you publicly state you are going to leave off a thread, DO it! Yeesh! Or don't say it in the first place! It's just... lame!
quote:Sorry; passed me by. Tempers are running so high I'm figuring everything at this point is said out of anger or at least exasperation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I was aiming for funny.
quote:Pyx brings out the shithead in me, what can I say?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Sorry; passed me by. Tempers are running so high I'm figuring everything at this point is said out of anger or at least exasperation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I was aiming for funny.
quote:"I'm so sorry" for what?
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Was it completely beyond you to just say something along the lines of 'I'm so sorry' and leave it at that??
quote:I didn't say anything unempathetic to Zacchaeus before he laid in to me.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:He laid into you BECAUSE you're unempathetic, you amnesiac mouth-breathing weasel.
Originally posted by Evensong:
He lays into me. I return the favor and I'm unempathetic?
quote:I have a bit of a past history of emotional abuse. It makes it very hard for me to back away from shit like this. I have to stand up for myself.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Here's the thing, if Evensong wasn't so clearly rubbing one out every time someone insults her, I would agree with daron. One reason I try not to engage with her when she gets in this mode is I don't want to encourage her. To me it's not so much bullying as a bunch of angry people cluelessly whipping an erotic masochist.
quote:Usually I can and I have in the past.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Having said all of that-- another pet peeve. Jesus God, Daron and Evensong, if you publicly state you are going to leave off a thread, DO it! Yeesh! Or don't say it in the first place! It's just... lame!
quote:Quote file. Nice one out of left field, daronedway.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I'm positively incandescent with mild pique.
quote:Yes, well said.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Here's the thing, if Evensong wasn't so clearly rubbing one out every time someone insults her, I would agree with daron. One reason I try not to engage with her when she gets in this mode is I don't want to encourage her. To me it's not so much bullying as a bunch of angry people cluelessly whipping an erotic masochist.
quote:Yeah.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I guess people with a history of abuse on the other side of this are feeling much the same. Perhaps acknowledging people's experience may be different and inform their opinions would help.
quote:Not aiming for the SoF quotes file, then?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Sorry; passed me by. Tempers are running so high I'm figuring everything at this point is said out of anger or at least exasperation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I was aiming for funny.
quote:Which brings me to a place where I might agree just a little with daron-- no matter how big an asshole someone is being, don't let them provoke you into acting like an asshole in return.
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
This thread has told me nothing I didn't already know about Evensong. But it's told me a lot I didn't know about Curiosity killed and alienfromzog.
quote:So have I. This is well said, and I second it.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I've been very public about my fondness for Evensong and I want to state for the record that that hasn't changed-- I just wish she'd allow us to get to know some of the cooler aspects of herself-- and IMO there are many-- instead of climbing into the battlebot costume every time she gets on the Ship. Particularly in Hell.
quote:Fair enough. One of the things that framed my opinion was the fact that a lot of your posts on this thread are of the one-liner "so's your mama" variety. if the issue is that important to you, fuck what everybody else is doing and treat it as such.
Originally posted by Evensong:
But pedophilia is very difficult issue for me so I find it even more difficult to walk away when people seem to be deliberately misconstruing my intentions and defaming me.
quote:Me too.
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:So have I. This is well said, and I second it.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I've been very public about my fondness for Evensong and I want to state for the record that that hasn't changed-- I just wish she'd allow us to get to know some of the cooler aspects of herself-- and IMO there are many-- instead of climbing into the battlebot costume every time she gets on the Ship. Particularly in Hell.
quote:Fair point, but that doesn't make the collective whacking off any less mutual in nature.
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I think that she assumes we automatically know that she has good motives and is annoyed by our 'misreading' when the clues to them are really in very murky waters; we do not all have the time to be Evensong-watchers.
quote:this is really important. abused kids (abused everyone, I think) take the guilt on themselves. they don't want to cause strife in the family, they don't want to make anyone else hurt or be uncomfortable. they don't want to be the cause of tears. So they clam up and pretend everything is good to keep the appearance of harmony within the home. It's SO DAMNED HARD to see out the other side of the strife towards where there can be real harmony.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
* just to put a face on my opinion: My stepdad beat the shit out of my stepbrother when he found out the things he was doing, and kicked him out of the house. Didn't help me a bit. Just gave me one more reason, being at a very narcissistic age, to believe I was causing a lot of problems in the family by speaking up. Because that's how kids think. That's an extreme example, but any ferocious display of anger is bound to have that effect on a kid-- that's how kids are. They think they are the cause of everything.
quote:And if they still love the abuser, if they can't bring themselves to hate them, the child might wind up thinking there is something depraved about his/herself, for not producing that feeling on command.
Originally posted by comet:
and, chances are, the abused kid loves their abuser. a lot. They don't want to be responsible for sending someone they love away - into jail or onto the streets or whatever.
"demonizing" the abuser is like charging into a home and telling a kid that their mom or dad is a horrible monster and they should hate this person, they should want them gone.
quote:This. Completely, totally, without reservation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Minimizing the damage done to the child is priority. Period.
quote:Thank you (and DK and Latckey) for this.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I've been very public about my fondness for Evensong and I want to state for the record that that hasn't changed-- I just wish she'd allow us to get to know some of the cooler aspects of herself-- and IMO there are many-- instead of climbing into the battlebot costume every time she gets on the Ship. Particularly in Hell.
quote:I did. Over and over again. And got nowhere. It was like
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:Fair enough. One of the things that framed my opinion was the fact that a lot of your posts on this thread are of the one-liner "so's your mama" variety. if the issue is that important to you, fuck what everybody else is doing and treat it as such.
Originally posted by Evensong:
But pedophilia is very difficult issue for me so I find it even more difficult to walk away when people seem to be deliberately misconstruing my intentions and defaming me.
so the "so's your mama" responses were all that were left after a while.quote:This is an excellent example of how frustrating this is. This is quite far from my own position and how I see the argument.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
If I were to try to nail down both "sides" (hate that word) of the argument, I would do it thus:
You: It's important to let sexually abused kids know that what has happened to them is awful and you, personally, as someone who cares about them, hate what has happened deeply.
Several other folk: But a kid in that position needs the adult to be the calm one who makes clear headed decisions about it.
To both of which I say "yes."*
quote:Amen.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:This. Completely, totally, without reservation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Minimizing the damage done to the child is priority. Period.
I've enough personal reason to hate abusers, but I cannot let it compromise that.
quote:If that's the case, then I am buggered if I know how you do see the argument.
Originally posted by Evensong:
This is an excellent example of how frustrating this is. This is quite far from my own position and how I see the argument.
quote:I didn't mean to imply the contrary.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:Fair point, but that doesn't make the collective whacking off any less mutual in nature.
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I think that she assumes we automatically know that she has good motives and is annoyed by our 'misreading' when the clues to them are really in very murky waters; we do not all have the time to be Evensong-watchers.
Responding to "I'm righter than you!" with "no, I'm righter that YOU!" does--nothing.
quote:This bit:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:"I'm so sorry" for what?
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Was it completely beyond you to just say something along the lines of 'I'm so sorry' and leave it at that??
I didn't do anything wrong.
I just have a different view about demonisation.
quote:Of all the immense amount of bytes you generate this one got to me.
I didn't do anything wrong.
quote:LkK; aiming for funny and shooting himself in the ass.
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:Not aiming for the SoF quotes file, then?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Sorry; passed me by. Tempers are running so high I'm figuring everything at this point is said out of anger or at least exasperation.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I was aiming for funny.
quote:I'd settle for willingness to engage. As opposed to coming out with a pile of steaming bullshit and then refusing to pay heed to anyone who calls it for what it is.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I think what people are looking for from you (on this thread and elsewhere) is the willingness to acknowledge that engaging with their perspective has, in some way, served to refine, clarify and perhaps change your own.
quote:I absolutely agree. The interest of the victim/s should always be foremost.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I only added one comment to all that-- it was this: All of the creative energy (manifest in the Hell fantasies)is being expressed at the perp, all of the pleas for mercy are being aimed at the perp-- you know what? fuck him. The woman and her kids are guaranteed a life of incredible damage. They need help with that, and fast. And that is what the avalanche of energy should land on. PERIOD.
quote:The argument was about whether or not the demonisation of sex offenders helped or hindered children (in situations of family abuse) to disclose.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:If that's the case, then I am buggered if I know how you do see the argument.
Originally posted by Evensong:
This is an excellent example of how frustrating this is. This is quite far from my own position and how I see the argument.
quote:Calling Evensong out for her "bullshit" does not involve, equal or any way necessitate calling her a shithead troll Marvin. Calling someone out for bullshit is a perfectly legitimate aspect of mature adult discourse. But calling someone names is bullying; the form of which you, Marvin, happen to be an exemplary practitioner.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:As for all the asshats claiming that the people calling her out for her bullshit are "bullies" - fuck you. The absolute last thing this site needs is people telling a shithead troll like Evensong that she's the victim.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I think what people are looking for from you (on this thread and elsewhere) is the willingness to acknowledge that engaging with their perspective has, in some way, served to refine, clarify and perhaps change your own.
quote:Thank you.
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Trying to be helpful. You have the capacity to make me think and make me cross. I prefer the times when you make me think.
quote:I agree. I have trouble with it too. Especially if it's one against all. I try to stand in when this happens. And I appreciate you doing the same.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Evensong,
I've made it clear up-thread that I don't like free-floating abuse on hell calls, including this one.
quote:Perhaps.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I also think that debate and remonstration (even on hell threads) should allow room those of opposing views to incrementally adapt and refine their opinions with successive statements.
However, what I think is most unhelpful is this: refining and adapting one's opinion by increments in response to fair criticism while at the same time doggedly maintaining that one's original opinion was incontrovertibly correct. With respect, you do this a quite lot.
quote:Will your oft-displayed inner need always to have the last word allow this, though?
Originally posted by Evensong:
Sometimes the best thing to do in those situations is shut up.
quote:No - her being a shithead troll is what necessitates me calling her a shithead troll.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Calling Evensong out for her "bullshit" does not involve, equal or any way necessitate calling her a shithead troll Marvin.
quote:Isn't it odd how the people who are the most outspoken about name calling in Hell are also the ones who most often post the sort of shit that makes other Shipmates want to attack them?
Calling someone out for bullshit is a perfectly legitimate aspect of mature adult discourse. But calling someone names is bullying; the form of which you, Marvin, happen to be an exemplary practitioner.
quote:Look at what happened to me when I dared make a joke without a flippin "
Originally posted by Evensong:
Studying hermeneutical theory in theology has made it very clear to me that communication via words (especially on a page or on a bulletin board) is very, very problematic.
" attached. Look at how Mousethief was all "oh no you didn't!" for a second. quote:Apparently neither of you have ever considered that if one person is being attacked by lots of others it may be because that person has done something to richly deserve it.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:I agree. I have trouble with it too. Especially if it's one against all. I try to stand in when this happens. And I appreciate you doing the same.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Evensong,
I've made it clear up-thread that I don't like free-floating abuse on hell calls, including this one.
quote:Yeah. That's right Marvin it's
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:No - her being a shithead troll is what necessitates me calling her a shithead troll.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Calling Evensong out for her "bullshit" does not involve, equal or any way necessitate calling her a shithead troll Marvin.
quote:Isn't it odd how the people who are the most outspoken about name calling in Hell are also the ones who most often post the sort of shit that makes other Shipmates want to attack them?
Calling someone out for bullshit is a perfectly legitimate aspect of mature adult discourse. But calling someone names is bullying; the form of which you, Marvin, happen to be an exemplary practitioner.
quote:Oh, that makes it all right then.
Originally posted by Evensong:
As for those that think I'm just trolling.
I had a minor meltdown last week with my Supervisor because of this goddamn hell thread.
The stupid ones don't bother me. The ones with serious issues do.
quote:No, it's mostly just you and Evensong these days.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
That's right Marvin it's
All the Other Kids isn't it?
quote:Kelly Alves. I've never heard the term cray-cray before. It's like it!
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Dude, you are not doing your friend any favors with that shit. And you're cray-cray. I don't mean that in a good way, either.
quote:I made the shortlist. Yay.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:No, it's mostly just you and Evensong these days.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
That's right Marvin it's
All the Other Kids isn't it?
quote:It's only bullying if you don't deserve it.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
When it comes to Marvin, I have to admit that I find his vehement defence of bullying to be stratospherically cray-cray.
quote:Poppycock.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:It's only bullying if you don't deserve it.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
When it comes to Marvin, I have to admit that I find his vehement defence of bullying to be stratospherically cray-cray.
quote:Please explain?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's only bullying if you don't deserve it.
quote:My mistake, I was thinking of Dark Knight. You still cray-cray.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Is what you are saying directed at me by the way? If you're suggesting that Evensong and I have some kind of Special Relationship™ please let me disabuse you of that error. We hardly know each other and the only extended exchanges we've had in Purgatory have been less than productive. This is why I posted what I did up-thread.
quote:Not that I think this applies to anything daron is saying, but I'm not sure I agree with that.I think you can't bully someone until you convince yourself they deserve it.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's only bullying if you don't deserve it.
quote:If it is having that effect on you, you should leave the thread. You don't need to announce your departure; just quit reading and posting.
Originally posted by Evensong:
As for those that think I'm just trolling.
I had a minor meltdown last week with my Supervisor because of this goddamn hell thread.
The stupid ones don't bother me. The ones with serious issues do.
quote:daron is trying to suggest that posters being attacked in Hell is perforce bullying. Probably because he's one of the ones that gets attacked a lot, but I digress.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:Please explain?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's only bullying if you don't deserve it.
quote:(nods) Especially in Hell. And maybe even in Purg.
Many shippies, including me, have issues they can't handle well. Trying to discuss them on the ship is a major mistake. You are bound to end up hurt and confused.
quote:Yes, I just want to underline that. I have been a mod and admin on other forums, and I used to wince at the stuff that people would discuss. A forum like this can be read by anyone in the world, and can be attacked and vilified, even on a fairly respectable forum like this. It's important to have defences if you are going to go online; protect yourself; don't confess all, etc. etc.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Moo:quote:(nods) Especially in Hell. And maybe even in Purg.
Many shippies, including me, have issues they can't handle well. Trying to discuss them on the ship is a major mistake. You are bound to end up hurt and confused.
quote:Why am I not surprised that you've turned up to comment on this?
Originally posted by Yorick:
I've taken a good deal of dogpiling on this site over the years, so I speak with personal experience.
quote:Did it hurt badly enough to cause you to rethink your basic mode of interaction so that you actually manage to stop pissing people off?
It's bullying, and it hurts. It affected me in real life, quite badly.
quote:Yes, that's right. It's not because the callee has pissed a large amount of people off. It's not because the callee was acting like a jerk. It's because the callers are bad people
Those who indulge their anger with posters by attacking them in this way, however justified they may feel, are exceedingly shitty people. They are the assiest, hattiest asshats.
.
quote:No. People get angry for all sorts of reasons, but they are they are themselves responsible for how they respond. You cannot blame the bullied for the bullying you give them. Yes, I could behave in ways that make me popular on here, and thus avoid constant dogpiling (and, yes, I have been working to that end for a couple of years now, thank you for noticing), but you own your reaction to my posts (otherwise you're a fucking hypocrite, obviously).
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Stop being a shithead and people will stop calling you a shithead. If they're still calling you a shithead it's because you're still acting like a shithead. Honestly, is that really so hard to understand?
quote:Nope. We're talking about dogpiling. By your analogy there are several judges, each meting out punishment, which, by accumulation of parts, becomes disproportionate.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yorick, isn't that like saying it's entirely the judge's fault that someone is in jail, and it's got nothing to do with the fact that they committed a crime?
quote:So you mixed me up with numb-nuts? Well, that's the meanest thing you've ever said to me.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:My mistake, I was thinking of Dark Knight. You still cray-cray.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Is what you are saying directed at me by the way? If you're suggesting that Evensong and I have some kind of Special Relationship™ please let me disabuse you of that error. We hardly know each other and the only extended exchanges we've had in Purgatory have been less than productive. This is why I posted what I did up-thread.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:Seems fair, although everyone will have their own ideas of what's adequately educational. I don't agree with Numpty (sorry, Numps, but that's always going to be your name in my mind), and I'm tired of his periodic moral crusades against Hell, but I think Marvin's equally wrong, and if there's one thing in this thread that's likely to make Evensong slightly less irritating, it's in Numpty's post here.
Originally posted by Yorick:
I think the, erm, feedback we receive from our fellow Shippies here in Hell can be extremely helpful for the boards and also for ourselves personally (well, I speak for myself, actually). It's when it becomes a dogpile that the cure becomes worse than the illness.
And, no, I don't have any better ideas, except to encourage people not to indulge in the dogpiling when the dogpilee is already taking an adequately educational kicking.
quote:Then she's going to keep getting attacked. If she wants the attacks to stop, all she has to do is develop some empathy and respect for her fellow posters.
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
If people just want to vent, that's fine, but history says that Evensong's unlikely to change as a result.
quote:Certainly not. I'm asking that a differentiation be made between mechanisms which really do have that end in mind (i.e. hell calls) and the mass exploitation of those mechanisms for the purposes of free-form abuse (i.e. dogpiling).
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
What are you asking Yorick and daronmedway? That we have no mechanism to tell people that their posting style / content is offensive?
quote:Are you married Marvin?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Then she's going to keep getting attacked. If she wants the attacks to stop, all she has to do is develop some empathy and respect...
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
If people just want to vent, that's fine, but history says that Evensong's unlikely to change as a result.
quote:Ain't that the truth.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Some of what is written in Hell says more about the author than is does about the person it is intended for.
quote:My point. What you are saying makes you sound like a very dangerous man.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yep. Your point?
quote:All I'm saying is that people should be free to call people shithead trolls when those people are being shithead trolls.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:My point. What you are saying makes you sound like a very dangerous man.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yep. Your point?
quote:The only danger Marvin poses is to people who cannot consider a different viewpoint now and again.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:My point. What you are saying makes you sound like a very dangerous man.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yep. Your point?
quote:Yorick's response was:
that no other Shipmate should join in a thread when it starts? But if you do that you're going to multiply the number of Hell threads as everyone involved has to start their own thread to say that they've been offended too.
quote:Dogpiles attacking the person called to Hell don't happen on threads where the call isn't seen as justified, they just don't. What either happens is the thread fizzles out and slowly sinks away or the person who calls the Hell thread ends up attacked by other Shipmates. What you see as dogpiles I would see as other Shipmates saying that they agree with the call.
It's when it becomes a dogpile that the cure becomes worse than the illness.
And, no, I don't have any better ideas, except to encourage people not to indulge in the dogpiling when the dogpilee is already taking an adequately educational kicking.
quote:You could stop acting like a bitch. Just a thought.
Originally posted by Evensong:
And if you (someone that doesn't mind me) can get the argument so wrong, what kind of chance do I have with people that already think I'm a bitch?
quote:This is grossly unfair. I said "Huh?" As in, I don't get it. Because it seemed out of character for you. And when you explained it was a joke, I apologized for not getting it.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Look at what happened to me when I dared make a joke without a flippin "
quote:The only way to know the kicking is adequately educational is when the kickee apologizes for whatever it is they did to offend others enough to want to kick them. Until then, one can hardly be blamed for assuming the kicking has not yet been adequately educational.
Originally posted by Yorick:
And, no, I don't have any better ideas, except to encourage people not to indulge in the dogpiling when the dogpilee is already taking an adequately educational kicking.
quote:This is almost true. To paraphrase Curiosity, It is possible for a non-shithead-troll to be called to Hell. Usually when this happens the Peanut Gallery™ will ridicule the caller and the thread will quickly turn into a party thread and be shut down. But not always.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The only people that's even slightly dangerous to are shithead trolls. I wonder why you're so keen to protect such folk...
quote:There is my problem. Evensong may behave like a shithead troll sometimes, and it's right to call her on it, of course.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The only people that's even slightly dangerous to are shithead trolls. I wonder why you're so keen to protect such folk...
quote:As far as this board goes, the way people behave here is all we have to go on. So it is the totality of their being as far as we're concerned.
Originally posted by Boogie:
But you seem to think that's all there is to her - and your term 'such folk' bears that out. One part of what someone does or has done does not define them.
quote:That's kinda my point. A lot of reactions* are knee jerk unfair, if you take two seconds to think about them. WHICH I DID!
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:This is grossly unfair. I said "Huh?" As in, I don't get it. Because it seemed out of character for you. And when you explained it was a joke, I apologized for not getting it.
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Look at what happened to me when I dared make a joke without a flippin "
.
quote:Well done! It's not all about you, you know.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I haven't called many people to Hell in the 6 years I've been here. So far as I can remember the list is Audrey Ely, Eddy, leo, Mark Betts, GeeD and Evensong.
quote:Evensong is to be found elsewhere on the Ship - she is often very welcoming on the 'Welcome' thread, for example.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:As far as this board goes, the way people behave here is all we have to go on. So it is the totality of their being as far as we're concerned.
Originally posted by Boogie:
But you seem to think that's all there is to her - and your term 'such folk' bears that out. One part of what someone does or has done does not define them.
quote:I don't think you can count both Audrey Ely and Eddy. Didn't they turn out to be the same person?
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I haven't called many people to Hell in the 6 years I've been here. So far as I can remember the list is Audrey Ely, Eddy, leo, Mark Betts, GeeD and Evensong.
quote:Evensong is to be found elsewhere on the Ship - she is often very welcoming on the 'Welcome' thread, for example.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:Yes - but we are not allowed to say that, on pain of permanent planking.
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:I don't think you can count both Audrey Ely and Eddy. Didn't they turn out to be the same person?
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I haven't called many people to Hell in the 6 years I've been here. So far as I can remember the list is Audrey Ely, Eddy, leo, Mark Betts, GeeD and Evensong.
quote:Thank you. I so agree. I do not know enough about this issue to support or condemn her but I like what she posts, often but not always.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:There is my problem. Evensong may behave like a shithead troll sometimes, and it's right to call her on it, of course.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The only people that's even slightly dangerous to are shithead trolls. I wonder why you're so keen to protect such folk...
But you seem to think that's all there is to her - and your term 'such folk' bears that out. One part of what someone does or has done does not define them.
Evensong is not a shithead troll.
I often make stupid and ignorant comments, people are very kind and explain why they are stupid and ignorant comments.
But however many of these I make, I'm not a stupid and ignorant person - I'm just way out of my field of expertise.
Attacking the person is never right imo, even when they are behaving badly. We should attack and challenge the behaviour, not the person.
quote:The logic of doing this escapes me. If it's one against all, the possibility is that it's occurring because the "one" is clearly wrong.
Originally posted by Evensong:
Especially if it's one against all. I try to stand in when this happens.
quote:Here's the problem. Person says something outrageous on a thread elsewhere, such as Purgatory.
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:Nope. We're talking about dogpiling. By your analogy there are several judges, each meting out punishment, which, by accumulation of parts, becomes disproportionate.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yorick, isn't that like saying it's entirely the judge's fault that someone is in jail, and it's got nothing to do with the fact that they committed a crime?
quote:Yeah, we've done to death who goes to hell, and the answers were, to say the least, contradictory. But no-one put it down to having a thread named after them here and people being a bit nasty to them on t'intertoobs.
Originally posted by shamwari:
Agree with Boogie and Leo
Evensong does not deserve the pasting she has in hell precisely because the pasting has become so personal as to deflect from what she says.
By all means consign Evensong to Hell for what she says ( or is understood to say what she says).
But she is a human being. And all will be saved.
quote:I'll have to remind Jesus about that. He must have forgotten.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:The logic of doing this escapes me. If it's one against all, the possibility is that it's occurring because the "one" is clearly wrong.
Originally posted by Evensong:
Especially if it's one against all. I try to stand in when this happens.
quote:That's the rule for every board but Hell. If people could do that there would be no Hell.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Agree with some people above: attack the argument, not the person.
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Ah. So religion is not to do with life. My mistake.
quote:Erk! Clever one!
Originally posted by passer:
quote:Evensong is to be found elsewhere on the Ship - she is often very welcoming on the 'Welcome' thread, for example.
Originally posted by Boogie:
Can't resist. You cross 'em over, I'll nod 'em in.
quote:Jesus thought that the woman caught in adultery was in the right?
Originally posted by orfeo:
Again, this is the difference between standing up for the underdog because you've assessed the particular situation and concluded that the underdog is in the right ...
quote:And oddly enough, it's the people who are most often the subject of those threads that are the most vocal about "dogpiling". What a coincidence...
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The ones that go for pages and pages are the ones where a lot of other people agree with the call and the person called keeps responding but not apologising.
quote:Yep - a Styx thread when I'd made a really bad hosting call in Hell and a lot of people were on my back about it.
Originally posted by Yorick:
Question: have either of you two been subjected to a proper dogpiling?
quote:As I understand it, the rules in Styx circumscribe the invective. You probably remember some of the deeply personal nature of the attacks I've received in Hell. It's that sort of thing that I object to*- not reasonable criticism of the substance of a poster's contributions, but the mass personal abuse. I don't see how it serves any purpose but the permission and endorsement of behaviour that demonstrates a very ugly side of human nature. But I'm a bit of a wuss like that.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Yep - a Styx thread when I'd made a really bad hosting call in Hell and a lot of people were on my back about it.
Originally posted by Yorick:
Question: have either of you two been subjected to a proper dogpiling?
quote:And that really is the point. For some people, by the time a hell call is issued they have well and truly pissed off a lot of people. The majority of the ship have never been called to hell, some have had only one hell call. But there are a few others who make a habit of being jerkish and have racked up multiple hell calls. These people seem to be clueless about their behavior or they enjoy the attention they receive because of it. Other people can discuss hot button issues without insulting others and without getting a hell call even if their opinion is radically different from everyone else. I do wish those called to hell multiple times would take a lesson from them.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And you apologised.
The thing is Yorick, if I was looking at the start of a dogpile, I'd wonder what I'd done so wrong, and try to sort it out. Maybe I would apologise straight up, and say, "I really got that wrong, oops, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa*".
Maybe I'd say "I obviously phrased that really badly, I need to go away and think about it. I am so sorry I have upset so many people. I'll step back out of this as it's obviously pressing too many hot button issues."
*my fault, my most grievous fault.
eta - I can spell, honest I can
quote:Seconded.
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:As I understand it, the rules in Styx circumscribe the invective. You probably remember some of the deeply personal nature of the attacks I've received in Hell. It's that sort of thing that I object to*- not reasonable criticism of the substance of a poster's contributions, but the mass personal abuse. I don't see how it serves any purpose but the permission and endorsement of behaviour that demonstrates a very ugly side of human nature.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Yep - a Styx thread when I'd made a really bad hosting call in Hell and a lot of people were on my back about it.
Originally posted by Yorick:
Question: have either of you two been subjected to a proper dogpiling?
quote:Here's the problem as I see it. Evensong has quite rightly been called for expressing an unpopular view in a persistently intransigent and inflexible manner while refusing to engage with alternate views. For that she should apologise. However, I simply can't understand why some people think that subjecting her to abusive name calling will result in her apologising for that original offence. It doesn't work in marriages. It doesn't work in friendships. It doesn't work in the workplace. It doesn't work in church. That's because it doesn't work. The truth of matter, I think, is that you all know it won't "work" but you 1) just enjoy giving abuse for the pleasure it gives you, 2) you secretly hope it will make her walk the plank of her own "free will". It's just so ugly.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:And oddly enough, it's the people who are most often the subject of those threads that are the most vocal about "dogpiling". What a coincidence...
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The ones that go for pages and pages are the ones where a lot of other people agree with the call and the person called keeps responding but not apologising.
quote:And it doesn't work on the Ship of Fools either. So to give all the other bulletin boards the slightest chance of "working" as intended the PTB instituted this, the Hell board, for those arguments and people that go beyond normal discourse and debate.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:Here's the problem as I see it. Evensong has quite rightly been called for expressing an unpopular view in a persistently intransigent and inflexible manner while refusing to engage with alternate views. For that she should apologise. However, I simply can't understand why some people think that subjecting her to abusive name calling will result in her apologising for that original offence. It doesn't work in marriages. It doesn't work in friendships. It doesn't work in the workplace. It doesn't work in church. That's because it doesn't work. The truth of matter, I think, is that you all know it won't "work" but you 1) just enjoy giving abuse for the pleasure it gives you, 2) you secretly hope it will make her walk the plank of her own "free will". It's just so ugly.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:And oddly enough, it's the people who are most often the subject of those threads that are the most vocal about "dogpiling". What a coincidence...
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The ones that go for pages and pages are the ones where a lot of other people agree with the call and the person called keeps responding but not apologising.
quote:This is just a turd wrapped in shiny paper because the (not so) hidden agenda is often to make the person to 'freely walk away' from the Ship by making them feel hated. And that, my friend, is called bullying.
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
And one more time (with feeling): It is NOT bullying if you can ignore it/walk away. It is weak, it is at times dumb but anyone who has been bullied knows what a gift it would be to be able to simply ignore it.
quote:Well now, that's an interesting question. The dynamics of the two sites are, of course, completely different, but I'm thinking that if someone posted offensive or even just annoying stuff on Twitter and lots of people saw it, they'd get lots of replies telling them how wrong, offensive and annoying they are. And I don't think that would be classed as abusive trolling in the same way that completely unprovoked attacks would be.
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Yes, but quite a bit, I fear, of what we call 'dogpiling' here would be classed as abusive trolling if, say, we did it on Twitter.
quote:So, the hell board exists so that all the unpleasant people don't have to risk the emotional damage of suppressing their hatefulness? Yeah, just like the heaven board exists so that all the nice people don't have risk the emotional damage of suppressing their sickening goodwill. I don't think so.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I disagree. Hell can't work as a safety valve if you don't let people blow off steam. Using it as the sort of place where you have to post in terms of "I say old chap, I think you were a tad out of order there" just means bottling it up a different way.
quote:A more ludicrous and self-serving interpretation of what I posted is impossible to imagine.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
So, the hell board exists so that all the unpleasant people don't have to risk the emotional damage of suppressing their hatefulness?
quote:...which is (especially for kids)?
I'm not saying ignore all bullying- but I'm thinking there's a middle ground somewhere.
quote:I agree with this, there is a middle ground. I think the middle ground is where the bullied person can ignore the bullying. It works well and the bully moves on to a new target. This is harder than outside observers would think. I worked at ignoring the person who bullied me for four years, it took its emotional toll, I'm afraid.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
jbohn:quote:...which is (especially for kids)?
I'm not saying ignore all bullying- but I'm thinking there's a middle ground somewhere.
quote:Which is the point where we encourage students to work it out themselves first, and only intervene when it becomes apparent that this process isn't working.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
jbohn:quote:...which is (especially for kids)?
I'm not saying ignore all bullying- but I'm thinking there's a middle ground somewhere.
quote:Fuck off.
Calm down.
quote:Apology accepted completely.
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Sorry Sioni, cross post.
