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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Marian Apparitions and Prayer
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
How is praying to Our Lady of Guadalupe different from praying to Our Lady of Fatima, or of Lourdes, Walsingham, etc? How is praying to any of them different from just praying to the Blessed Virgin Mary?
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Well, assuming that they are all one and the same person, no difference whatsoever.
I'm not RC but I've always assumed the various 'of' designations to refer simply to the place where the apparition is believed to have taken place.
But I suspect you already knew that.
I s'pose it's just like some of the other designations, 'Our Lady of the Seven Dolours' and what have you. It doesn't mean that she can't also be 'Our Lady of ... whatever else it happens to be.'
I don't have a big issue with Mariology per se, provided it goes hand-in-hand with a high Christology and treads the fine line between faith and superstition, but it can go over-the-top at times ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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gorpo
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# 17025
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Posted
I don´t know what´s the Roman Catholic Church official opinion on this, but on popular catholicism, at least in latin countries, different "versions" of the virgin are almost taken as different deitys. They are often mixed and/or confused with deitys from indigenous religions too. People in more "enlighted" catholic circles (which usually means the richer...) would rather just pray for the Virgin Mary, without mentioning any particular "version". As far as I know, the RC Church doesn´t officially require that catholics should believe in any of those marian aparisons. In practice, they do support popular devotion, but one who does not believe in a particular marian aparison is not considered an heretic.
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art dunce
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# 9258
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Posted
quote:
but on popular catholicism, at least in latin countries, different "versions" of the virgin are almost taken as different deitys
Can you cite a source for this? I have never met devotee of Guadalupe who considered her anything other than the blessed mother.
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Ego is not your amigo.
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
I guess I was trying to ask:
a. In theological terms, even if a Marian apparition is valid, is the being that appears actually the Blessed Virgin Mary (BVM)? Granted, she is physically in Heaven, but is what people see actually her, and are the messages actually her words, or is the apparition an angel or another phenomenon caused by God?
b. (More importantly to me) - Why is it that different Marian apparitions are described as if they were different saints? For example, many countries in the Americas have a Marian apparition, image, or attribute (like the Immaculate Conception) as their patron saint - but it is different for each country. For anyone who knows Mariology (or the theology of apparitions, devotions, and prayer to the saints), is there a theological element to this distinction? I know that there are many possible anthropological and historical explanations, but I am more interested in whatever theological speculations anyone may have.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
At my Anglocatholic parish we have three principal effigies of Our Lady: Our Lady of Walsingham, Queen of Heaven, and a locally named one—let's call her Our Lady of Hardwork—after the community in which the parish is located.
They are no more different deities than the various Christs are. Again, we have three principal ones: the Child Enthroned on the Mother's Lap, a roodbeam King of Glory, and a kind of Pantocrator in the reredos.
To the opening post: quote:
How is praying to Our Lady of Guadalupe different from praying to Our Lady of Fatima, or of Lourdes, Walsingham, etc?
It different only insofar as the affect produced in the petitioner is different. quote:
How is praying to any of them different from just praying to the Blessed Virgin Mary?
The different titles evoke different feelings and understandings of who the one person is.
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
It is an oddity that Mary is given these place-name titles (not necessarily to do with apparitions, but also with images and pilgrimage sites) in a way that Christ and other saints are not.
My positive view of it would be, that such titles show how the Incarnation is earthed in the specific, mundane places of our individual lives.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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glockenspiel
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# 13645
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Posted
What exactly is an 'apparition' supposed to be??
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
In theological terms, even if a Marian apparition is valid, is the being that appears actually the Blessed Virgin Mary (BVM)?
Yes, it is indeed the mother of Christ herself that appears, or rather, so the faithful are allowed to believe if they wish.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Why is it that different Marian apparitions are described as if they were different saints?
That's not really the case, it's always "Our Lady of X", with only X varying, but the "Our Lady" never in question. As far as the "manner of appearance" and hence the resulting devotions go: Catholicism enforces unity only on the essentials, but tolerates or even encourages diversity on non-essentials. So there's no problem with different people doing different things to honour different appearance of the one and only BVM. In practical terms, apparitions are bound to times and places and people, and take a lot of their "flavour" from that. In that, they differ from Mary, the Palestine woman, physically dropping by for a visit. This is not purely about seeing with the eyes in your head what is in front of you, it is also about seeing with the eyes of faith.
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
What exactly is an 'apparition' supposed to be??
An occasion where someone supernaturally appears in this world.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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glockenspiel
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# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
In theological terms, even if a Marian apparition is valid, is the being that appears actually the Blessed Virgin Mary (BVM)?
Yes, it is indeed the mother of Christ herself that appears, or rather, so the faithful are allowed to believe if they wish.
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
What exactly is an 'apparition' supposed to be??
An occasion where someone supernaturally appears in this world.
So she is once again on the earth, not in any 'place' outside the universe, at that moment?? And she is the one choosing her outfit and language for that visit?? And she (or her commanding God) will only ever send her to Roman Catholics??
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gorpo
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# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
quote:
but on popular catholicism, at least in latin countries, different "versions" of the virgin are almost taken as different deitys
Can you cite a source for this? I have never met devotee of Guadalupe who considered her anything other than the blessed mother.
Are you mexican? I am brazilian, and the Virgin of Guadalupe is not that popular here. There is no "source" to what I said, since it´s not the official version of catholicism, but as I said, "popular catholicism". Many people who practice this type of devotion are not even literate, so you can´t expect them to write essays about these things.
Here in Brazil, black people who brought their religious traditions from Africa have assimilated their deitys with the various virgins and saints from Roman Catholicism. There is a number of female deitys from traditional afro-brazilian religions that are assimilated to specific versions of the Virgin, and some of them manage to be even more popular then the official Roman Catholic version. For example, some states and cities in Brazil have a holiday for "Our Lady of The Navegantes", but what happens that day is actually a festival for Iemanjá, a female deity from the Candomblé (an african-brazilian religion).
Particularly, I don´t believe in those aparitions because in most of them the Virgin appears to be sad or crying. Not the mood you would expect from someone who is currently on heaven. Also, she talks against communism (Our Lady Of Fatima) and brings political messages that are aligned to the views of the Vatican.
My family is half catholic, and my mother is a huge devotee of Mary.
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
...
Particularly, I don´t believe in those aparitions because in most of them the Virgin appears to be sad or crying. Not the mood you would expect from someone who is currently on heaven. Also, she talks against communism (Our Lady Of Fatima) and brings political messages that are aligned to the views of the Vatican.
...
So you want the BVM with a permanent grin on her face to signify the Joy of Heaven, gorpo?
Also a God who does not take Evil, such as in Communism, seriously? I think the anti-communism was spiritual rather than political.
If you go to the Eastern Orthodox depictions of the BVM/Theotokos she is depicted in various moods, none of them grinning.
There is a tremendous difference IMHO between the sort of human happiness we project on the Almighty and the Deep Christian Joy we read about in the New Testament, which came ultimately after Jesus passed through the most utter sorrow. 'Heaven' is not a spiritual Disneyland.
I understand what you're saying about Afro-Brazilian spin-offs of traditional Christianity but I never regarded Macumba, or even capoeira, as being remotely religious.
Sorry if I appear to have taken you to task and I realise you come from a Brazilian, Portuguese speaking background and may have reservations about Marian devotion.
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Well...
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
Read this book: Our Lady of the Lost and Found by Diane Schoemperlen
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
So she is once again on the earth, not in any 'place' outside the universe, at that moment?? And she is the one choosing her outfit and language for that visit?? And she (or her commanding God) will only ever send her to Roman Catholics??
Well, I wouldn't say that she comes here in a regular material fashion. Perhaps it is more like the angels when they visit this world, perhaps it is her supernatural glorified body, I don't know. Otherwise, yes, these events seem to be of her choosing. Whether other Christians experience this I do not actually know. The RCC, as usual, is well organized about what happens to her faithful. So we can look at a nice list of RC-approved apparitions, which unsurprisingly concern RCs. The Orthodox for example may well have something similar, in a suitably idiosyncratic and nationalistic fashion... But if it's only for RCs, then that would also be understandable.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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SeraphimSarov
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# 4335
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Posted
Here is one Orthodox who doesn't take the convert rantings On Orthodoxinfo.cI'm too seriously
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
This is of course just my own opinion, but I take it to be about relationship.
Consider who you are in relation to your boss, in relation to your mother, in relation to your romantic partner, in relation to your friends, and in relation to a clerk in a store. They're all very different appearances of you, but they're all you.
It is completely appropriate and right for people to celebrate the relationship expressed in a particular apparition. Our Lady isn't some one-dimensional idea or image; she relates to people where they are, in their culture and language and everything else. Part of the importance of Our Lady of Guadalupe is that she appeared to the conquered people and not the conquerors, the missionized people and not the missionaries. In doing so, she affirmed the people's faith, devotion, and culture. She also appeared, AIUI, in the dress of a local goddess, showing herself, a human being, to be greater than that goddess. (How much more, than, her divine Son!)
All of these particulars of an apparition are what is being celebrated.
I'm personally agnostic about apparitions, never having seen one (and if I did, I might question it too!), but the devotion that grows up around them is very beautiful and genuine, as far as I can tell.
I also feel like there's some similarity with icons. Icons of the Virgin, for example, the Virgin of Vladimir (I'm choosing that because I wrote a paper on her) are both considered to mediate the Virgin's presence AND are endowed with a sort of personhood or personality of their own (note how I just called an icon "her"). When an icon is copied, the copy is both an icon of its subject AND an icon of the original icon.
I read an article once, too, on how photographs of an apparition in Ethiopia were being treated as icons, but I don't remember enough about it to say much... other than that there's a lot of blurriness between the categories of icon, apparition, and copy (e.g., a photograph or a copy of an icon).
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
Here is one Orthodox who doesn't take the convert rantings On Orthodoxinfo.cI'm too seriously
Good to see you're still around SS.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
You would notice I posted the link as a Nonorthodox without any endorsement.
It still represents an opinion no more weird or otherwise on a topic generating endless debate. I think that is the nature of the thread: contentious.
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Well...
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
That's very helpful, churchgeek, thank you.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
quote:
but on popular catholicism, at least in latin countries, different "versions" of the virgin are almost taken as different deitys
Can you cite a source for this? I have never met devotee of Guadalupe who considered her anything other than the blessed mother.
I have to side with art dunce on this one. I also have never met a Marian devotee who's consider her anything other than the Blessed Virgin Mary.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
...
Particularly, I don´t believe in those aparitions because in most of them the Virgin appears to be sad or crying. Not the mood you would expect from someone who is currently on heaven. Also, she talks against communism (Our Lady Of Fatima) and brings political messages that are aligned to the views of the Vatican.
...
So you want the BVM with a permanent grin on her face to signify the Joy of Heaven, gorpo?
Also a God who does not take Evil, such as in Communism, seriously? I think the anti-communism was spiritual rather than political.
If you go to the Eastern Orthodox depictions of the BVM/Theotokos she is depicted in various moods, none of them grinning.
There is a tremendous difference IMHO between the sort of human happiness we project on the Almighty and the Deep Christian Joy we read about in the New Testament, which came ultimately after Jesus passed through the most utter sorrow. 'Heaven' is not a spiritual Disneyland.
I understand what you're saying about Afro-Brazilian spin-offs of traditional Christianity but I never regarded Macumba, or even capoeira, as being remotely religious.
Sorry if I appear to have taken you to task and I realise you come from a Brazilian, Portuguese speaking background and may have reservations about Marian devotion.
Why is communism automatically evil? I'm a socialist not a communist but I'm still puzzled. Modern capitalism is more evil to me than communism, and certainly communism has more in common with the early church than capitalism does.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, you could read parts of the Magnificat almost as a socialist - if not quite communist - manifesto.......
I'll get me coat.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... Modern capitalism is more evil to me than communism, and certainly communism has more in common with the early church than capitalism does.
To say that, one has to have lived most of ones life before 1932 or after 1985 or to be self-deluded in a manner comparable to the late Revd Hewlett Johnson.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... Modern capitalism is more evil to me than communism, and certainly communism has more in common with the early church than capitalism does.
To say that, one has to have lived most of ones life before 1932 or after 1985 or to be self-deluded in a manner comparable to the late Revd Hewlett Johnson.
How is the life of the early church not collectivist and therefore more communist than capitalist? How does the Bible endorse capitalism?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
BTW, the Wikipedia article suggests that the Anglican Communion recognizes the apparition of Lourdes as well as the apparition at Walsingham.
There is no link to any official Anglican Communion document simply a reference to the ABC preaching at Lourdes which apparently is an indication of Anglican endorsement of the apparition.
Does anyone have access to an official Anglican document which states the official position of the Anglican Church on Marian apparitions?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
How is the life of the early church not collectivist and therefore more communist than capitalist? How does the Bible endorse capitalism?
The Bible does not endorse capitalism. I wasn't suggesting it did.
The experience of Christians has been that unless one regards persecution as an exciting challenge for oneself, rather than good for other people, communism is an even less favourable environment in which to live as a Christian than 'capitalism' - whatever that means and whether or not it can legitimately be classified as an economic system, rather than just, 'what you end up with if you don't impose an economic ideology on your surroundings'.
Apart from the first few chapters of Acts, which doesn't seem to have lasted, the early church does not seem to have been collectivist. The Old Testament picture of the good society is not. If one does insist that there should be a Christian economic ideology (I don't), distributism has a better claim. But as no one has ever tried it, we don't know whether it would work.
Anyway, this is all a tangent. It has nothing to do with Marian apparitions.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
At my Anglocatholic parish we have three principal effigies of Our Lady: Our Lady of Walsingham, Queen of Heaven, and a locally named one—let's call her Our Lady of Hardwork—after the community in which the parish is is.
Is it Ok and is it done for a parish to use a title for Our Lady of their own devising / name e.g. our Lady of Weston super Mare? And is she then invoked by that title?
I'd love to be pointed to examples of Anglo catholic or others doing this.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Is it Ok and is it done for a parish to use a title for Our Lady of their own devising / name e.g. our Lady of Weston super Mare? And is she then invoked by that title?
Absolutely not. our lady (like most people of taste) has more taste than to visit Weston-Super-Mare. It is muddy, there isn't enough sand and the water is polluted.
Now Weymouth, on the hand....
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Squirrel
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# 3040
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Posted
Once at a party I ran into some folks who belonged to "Christians Before Paul." Anyone ever heard of them?
[ 25. August 2012, 15:48: Message edited by: Squirrel ]
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Please pardon the above. It got posted on the wrong threat.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
At my Anglocatholic parish we have three principal effigies of Our Lady: Our Lady of Walsingham, Queen of Heaven, and a locally named one—let's call her Our Lady of Hardwork—after the community in which the parish is is.
Is it Ok and is it done for a parish to use a title for Our Lady of their own devising / name e.g. our Lady of Weston super Mare? And is she then invoked by that title?
I'd love to be pointed to examples of Anglo catholic or others doing this.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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egg
Shipmate
# 3982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Does anyone have access to an official Anglican document which states the official position of the Anglican Church on Marian apparitions?
I find it interesting that appearances of Jesus, at any rate in the 20th century, seem usually to have been to a single individual – Hugh Montefiore in his study at Rugby, thinking of becoming a rabbi but converted to Christianity almost in an instant by the appearance of Jesus to him, Archbishop Akinola of Nigeria, a widowed Oxford friend of mine in her bedroom, and many others considered in some detail in Philip Wiebe’s book “Visions of Jesus” (1997)_– though there have been appearances to several at once, or, as Paul tells, on one occasion to 500; whereas appearances of Mary seem quite commonly to be to significant numbers of people at a time. Does this tell us anything about the greater popularity of Mary to large numbers of Roman Catholics than the popularity of Jesus? God the Father, Jesus, Mary, the departed (saints or otherwise) are all alive in the non-material world that exists alongside our material world. Perhaps one or more of them appear to those who are most likely to be receptive; and to many Roman Catholics that would appear to be Mary rather than Jesus.
As to Anglican doctrine, ``Doctrine in the Church of England”, (1938, republished 1957) is, so far as I know, the last publication which sets out the doctrine of the Church of England as a whole. It says quite a lot about life after death, but nothing about appearances of Jesus or the Virgin Mary. Philip Wiebe’s book “Visions of Jesus” gives details of 28 cases in which Jesus appeared in the 20th century , mostly (nut not all) to individuals, and refers to others, earlier and contemporary, but not so much to appearances of Mary. for which he refers the reader to other books.
My own thinking owes a lot to Keith Ward, lately Regius Professor of Divinity at the University of Oxford (and a former curate of my parish). Keith is very much a rational theologian, and in one of his latest books, “Why there almost certainly is a God – Doubting Dawkins”, he has a bit to say about this. He starts with the fundamental question (p.19): “The question of God is the question of whether conscious mind can exist without any physical body” – to which all theists, Jew, Christian or Muslim, must answer Yes. Later, I quote:
“If we think of a religious vision, such as an apparition of the Virgin Mary or an angel, there is reason to take this as a communication from God …
The brain may construct a vision of the Virgin Mary, looking just as she looks in the picture we have seen, and dressed in just the clothes we expect. But this is not like ‘seeing’ a face in the curtains. Or ‘hearing’ a voice in the wind. It is not, or at least it may not be, a misinterpretation of some visual array that is really something else. We may check the curtains carefully, and listen closely. And the apparition may still be there. …
One vision that I accept is the resurrection of Jesus …
If there are genuine communications from God by means of mind-constructed visual images or ‘words’, we might also want to say that the information they convey should extend knowledge and should have important spiritual significance. If the Virgin Mary just said “the cigars up here are great”, we might well wonder if we were not, after all, having a vivid daydream. But if she said “I am alive and will pray for you”, that might convey the significant truth that those who have died on earth (or at least some of them) do exist in some form after death.
I am not saying that all visions of the Virgin are genuine. Nevertheless, having made as many reality checks as we can, we must conclude that a claim to see an apparition made by a sane, moral, rational, critically aware and trustworthy person has to be considered a candidate for a genuine communication of truth from God. … It seems highly probable that, if there is a God, there will be some such communication of God’s nature and purpose. … It is reasonable to think that some humans will have an especially close and intense knowledge and love of God, or that God will take some human lives and unite them closely to the divine in knowledge and love. They will become the channels of divine revelation of what God is and of what God desires for us and for the world…. In the end it will be unreasonable to claim that God has left the world without any knowledge of God’s nature and purposes, or any hope of closer knowledge of God. Only God could provide such knowledge. Revelation becomes a highly probable consequence of the existence of a supremely good God” (from pp.125-238 – one should read the whole passage, or indeed the whole book, to discover what one leading, relatively orthodox, Anglican believes).
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egg
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Gamaliel - it was a simulacrum.
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Love wins
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I have heard of various Marian apparitions (though I think the word makes it sound more like the appearances of a ghost), and of course we hear of appearances by Jesus himself, but I can't remember anyone claiming to have seen an apparition of Paul, Peter, Joseph, Thomas, etc.
I am led to wonder whether there are Jews who see apparitions of Moses, Samuel, Daniel, Solomon, etc.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I've heard that people who claim to have had 'near death' or 'after death' experiences involving religious visions of one form or other tend to 'see' things that correspond with their faith or world view - so Muslims 'see' Muslim things ... as it were ... RCs see Mary or Christ - or what they take to be Mary or Christ. And so on.
@Martin. Ah, a simulacrum. That explains it all then ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Of course, I agree, that's what I think it is too.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Thank you Egg.
That is similar to an article written by Karl Rahner about a saint who had a vision of the Nativity of Jesus. I can't remember who that saint is. Basically Rahner argues that we are not to think that the saint actually visited the historical Nativity of Jesus. Rather this vision is how God communicates to us through images and stories that we already know.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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glockenspiel
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# 13645
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Posted
Am still puzzled by the attraction of Lourdes etc, insofar as they meant to bring one 'closer' to Mary and/or Jesus. Surely if one wanted to do that, one would head for Nazareth?? I have never seen a pilgrimmage there advertised in any church. What's going on?
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
I've been to Nazareth. The Orthodox church is lovely. The big C20 RC basilica is well meaning - Mary is depicted round the walls from different cultures, Chinese etc. But it is a bit antiseptic.
It is the site of the original shrine of the Holy House, but I'm far more moved at Walsingham.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've heard that people who claim to have had 'near death' or 'after death' experiences involving religious visions
Julian of Norwich? (She says our Lord shows our Lady to her but she does not see her "in person". Instead Jesus gives Julian a "spiritual sight" of Mary, three times - "when she was big with child ... under the cross and ... as she is now, delightful, glorious and rejoicing".)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
Devotions to Our Lord or Our Lady "of" a particular place (or relating to an aspect of their character) locates the act of prayer more deeply within a particular culture/context. Incarnational, and so helping to be more "real" to the individual because they are thus uniting with other local Christians over time.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Fuzzipeg
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# 10107
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Posted
We had one of those common occurrences of Our Lady supposedly appearing to an adolescent Portuguese girl in Benoni and the subsequent hooha. I decided to do a radio discussion on whether it was necessary, as a Christian, to believe in visions and dreams. There were a couple of Catholic priests and the Coptic Bishop on the programme. Whilst I was teasing the Catholics about Our Lady's somewhat monosyllabic comments such as "Pray for Russia" or "Repent"...similar to Parish Priest comments,I suppose, and asking why She never really said anything interesting, such as what Joseph liked for breakfast; the Coptic Bishop said that he had seen Our Lady twice and St Mark once. He is such a holy person that you couldn't say "Pull the other one!"
I subsequently asked him about these apparitions.....but that is another story.
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
HCH, four Jews certainly saw appartions of Moses and Elijah.
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Love wins
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glockenspiel
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# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I've been to Nazareth....
It is the site of the original shrine of the Holy House, but I'm far more moved at Walsingham.
Please elaborate!
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
Martin:
I was not thinking of first-century events but of more recent ones.
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