Thread: 50 Shades of Grey Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on :
 
I like to read banned books. In part this is because, usually, nobody bothers to ban a book that is badly written, or irrelevant, or boring. In part it is because reading banned books teaches volumes about the attitudes and mores of the censors and the societies that empower them.

Deborah George, the director of library materials at the Gwinnett County library, was widely quoted as saying, "We do not collect erotica at Gwinnett County Public Library. That’s part of our materials management collection policy. So, E L James’ three books in the trilogy fit that description."

Gwinnett County is an affluent, rapidly growing county in suburban Atlanta.

Other reviewers and critics have characterized the book as "mommy porn," an allusion to its relatively greater popularity among women.

I obtained a copy of "50 shades" and read through it. It's not really erotica, instead being best understood as a badly written romance novel punctuated with badly written sex scenes. The characters are shallow, the plot transparent, the sex scenes unremarkable, and the BDSM themes a self-caricature.

It's been 20 years since Anne Rice took credit for the Sleeping Beauty trilogy, which makes me surprised that anyone things "50 shades" is still worth a wink and a nudge.

I have these questions for shipmates to consider:
1) Why is this book popular?
2) What does its popularity say about our society?
3) Should Christians avoid reading it on moral grounds?
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I'm avoiding it because my sister told me her impressions of it and I think I'd have to ream out my mind with a toilet snake after. (She said it was shit and urged me to write some slightly-better shit for her to read.)
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
It was developed from Twilight fan fiction! That is reason enough to ban it and reason enough to avoid reading it. Also, unfortunately, explains its popularity.
 

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Posted by chive (# 208) on :
 
I have to admit I've not read any of the books and I've seen them being liberally panned on most bdsm sites. However, they sell them in Tesco which suggests they can't be that durrty.
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
Be careful about writing anything that might remotely be construed as critical of BDSM. As I've recently learned the hard way, some of its devotees, whether out of touchiness or eagerness to try you on as a potential partner, could come out of the woodwork to assail you.

Public librarians are in a very difficult position. They must walk a tightrope between professional principles firmly opposed to censorship, on the one hand, and a divided public on the other, some of whom will shamelessly seize upon any excuse to starve the library to death or shut it down outright. These are strange times, when the term "public good" is being emptied of meaning. Of course, libraries have never been able to buy or house everything, anyway. To declare some categories of material in-scope or out-of-scope with a policy at least simplifies decision-making and lets users know what to expect. Except for a few turncoats, they make a sincere effort to determine and buy the best, as determined by literary and subject critics. Quality, not prudery, is the criterion.

If this book is poorly written, as you report, then it should be a low priority to acquire on these grounds. As this verdict is probably in order for most erotica, categorically excluding it from consideration saves much time. However, if it has become a cultural phenomenon, then an academic or research library might want not only to acquire it, but to keep it for many years, simply for that reason: it will be of interest to social scientists and historians.

It's also worth bearing in mind that such books tend to get stolen. Hence an effort to provide them can quickly become a greater commitment than one might anticipate, and is liable to prove a lost cause.

As the founder of LibraryThing has opined, when public libraries began to be a source of popular music and videos, they surrendered some of the high ground. Their role and image inevitably moved away from the schools and education and towards parks and recreation-- hence expendable in those same hard times when people need them the most for serious purposes. Though it might have contributed to their "popularity" as shown by statistics, this decision could yet prove sadly short-sighted.
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
A bit marginal, given that discussions of books (movies, TV series) normally take place in Heaven. But in view of the second and third questions in the OP, I'll leave it here pro tem.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
 

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Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
First off, I have not read it, so I am not going to comment on its quality one way or another.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
If this book is poorly written, as you report, then it should be a low priority to acquire on these grounds. As this verdict is probably in order for most erotica, categorically excluding it from consideration saves much time. However, if it has become a cultural phenomenon, then an academic or research library might want not only to acquire it, but to keep it for many years, simply for that reason: it will be of interest to social scientists and historians.

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Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
What has surprised me about "50 Shades" is the way people are open about reading it. Is there any other work of erotic fiction that the hostesses of "Good Morning America" admit to reading on air?

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
What has surprised me about "50 Shades" is the way people are open about reading it. Is there any other work of erotic fiction that the hostesses of "Good Morning America" admit to reading on air?

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I wonder what Camille Paglia has to say about this craze.

I don't think I wonder what Andrea Dworkin has to say about it, but it would be amusing to hear her try to say it, anyway.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
I don't think I wonder what Andrea Dworkin has to say about it, but it would be amusing to hear her try to say it, anyway.

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When someone who has been dead for 7 years starts talking, amusing is not exactly the word I would use to describe it, but to each his own. (Note that I only know she is dead because I looked her up two minutes ago.) (Cross post)

[ 05. June 2012, 19:48: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
I get regular feeds on my Facebook from both religious websites like Patheos and "Get a load of those crazy fundamentalists now" websites like Stuff Christian Culture Likes -- which is the only reason I know anything about this book. It appears to have a certain "fizz" quotient among women in repressive religious subcultures. I especially enjoy the "This is why this is such a terrible, pornographic book" reviews from people who seem to have taken great pains to read it -- maybe in the tub with a lit scented candle and some contraband chardonnay.

I have so little time for reading that when I do catch an hour or so of alone time with a book I want to make it count, and not waste it on semi-literate dreck. ..which this book seems to be, from the reviews I've seen.
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
It would be something of a miracle, given she's been dead for seven years!

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As I implied. But that doesn't keep admirers from trying to channel her nevertheless.
 

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Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
I'll just wait for the movie. (It's inevitable, right?)

Seriously, I'd love for someone who has read it to give some insight into the popularity. If "good Christians" aren't reading it, and high literary types wouldn't be caught dead, then who's this massive audience? And is anyone here brave enough to admit reading the whole thing and actually being complimentary of it?
 

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Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
I am reminded of a recoding I once heard of interviews taken of people waiting in line to purchase copies of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" when it was first sold in UK bookstores. Most people were "interested in seeing what the fuss was about." One claimed to be buying it for someone else. Not a single one of them admitted that they were hoping that reading it would make them feel funny. (No, I'm not comparing 50 shades to D.H. Lawrence.)

But aside from repressive religious discussion boards and high-minded religious discussion boards, I think the story has been the fact that so many people are openly buying and reading erotic fiction. As I said, Lara Spencer and Robin Roberts talked about reading the book on national morning television (on Disney-owned ABC nonetheless). What (if anything) has changed so that women will openly talk about reading this kind of thing outside of their groups of girlfriends?
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I think a couple points of interest in the media are 1) the story was a spin-off of fan-fic, Twilight in particular and 2) as men like to look at erotica, women often like to read it. To women, often even a poor story with shallowly written characters to set up the sex scenes are better than no story at all.

I used to read fan-fic and wrote a few pieces including one that included erotica. Not the greatest, I'll admit, but probably better than a lot of Harlequin Spice; "better" if you accept the fact that I totally stole the characters from their original genre. It was fan-fic, ya know. There were a number of authors in the genre I read that I would put up against popular, professional, pot-boiler authors in composing a good yarn- again with the caveat that they wrote with the head start of already interesting characters and an interesting fictional world. And quite a bit of their erotica was -uh- quite stimulating.
 

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Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
I don't know why these particular volumes are being touted as erotica or even good reading. An amusing column by Lucy Mangan in the Guardian goes over some old favourites that are much more raunchy (and better written) that have sat on library shelves for years without comment.
 

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Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :
 
I haven't read it (and probably won't since I don't want to shell out £3 for a kindle copy) but I have read a lot about it. I was most amused by this post: http://www.theawl.com/2012/06/50-shades-of-argh

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Originally posted by Alogon:
Be careful about writing anything that might remotely be construed as critical of BDSM. As I've recently learned the hard way, some of its devotees, whether out of touchiness or eagerness to try you on as a potential partner, could come out of the woodwork to assail you.

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
I haven't read it either but here's what I remember from listening to a discussion of it on Radio 4 a couple of weeks ago (which practically makes me an authority, no? ):

Fifty Shades was originally released as an e-book, not traditionally published. This in part explains its initial appeal - to people who want to read something sexy but don't want to be seen buying it. Now it that turns out that everyone's read it on the sly, it's become acceptable to be seen with.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I've not read the whole book but I read about 3 pages worth just to see what the hooplah was about. I'm told by people who have read it* that the 3 pages I read were about par for the course.

If those 3 pages were a short story, you would call it a very badly written, very unbelievable rape fantasy.

____________
*okay, person

[ 06. June 2012, 09:06: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 

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Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :
 
I couldn't get beyond page 50 or so. It was like reading entries for the Bad Sex in Fiction Award.

But lacking the zaniness of Rowan Somerville's 2010 award-winning entry: 'Like a lepidopterist mounting a tough-skinned insect with a too blunt pin he screwed himself into her.'
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Watching the popularity of this series really is an education in how "buzz" and "hype" work in the book selling industry. This weekend I had a signing for my own not-terribly-erotic book at the local outlet of a chain bookstore, and they parked me right next to the giant 50 Shades rack at the front of the story. It was interesting to see how people wandered by, their eyes drawn to the giant display. At least four or five people said to their shopping companions, "Oh, that's that 50 Shades book everyone's been talking about." Many of them didn't seem to know a thing about the book, not even that it was supposedly erotica -- just that they'd heard the title a lot and it had a huge display. Many of the people who were buying it were not people who I would have thought likely to be openly buying anything billed as erotica -- very average-looking readers who were picking it up as they might the latest thriller on the best-seller list or even the latest from Oprah's Book Club. It was very interesting and really does illustrate that the biggest factor in selling something seems to be to get people talking about it -- regardless of the quality of what's inside the package.
 

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Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
Am I the only one who can't wait to read the erotic fiction Lamb Chopped writes for her sister's entertainment?
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Just. Ewww.

Though as award winners went, I quite enjoyed "Slither slither slither went the tongue."

That's my style of writing.

Hey! There's an idea for a new Circus game!
 

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Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :
 
I have two questions:

Firstly, is it badly written in an entertaining way or badly written in a bad way?

Second, why is it that there's something about sex that brings out bad writing?
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 

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why is it that there's something about sex that brings out bad writing?

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Originally posted by ecumaniac:

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Bartolomeo, see what I mean?

Congratulations, Ecumaniac, on your second post in Purg in about a month, and your third in at least five years.

Big Brother is watching us. (Or is it Big Sister)?
 

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Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on :
 

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Originally posted by Yerevan:

Firstly, is it badly written in an entertaining way or badly written in a bad way?

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Second, why is it that there's something about sex that brings out bad writing?

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I read about 3 pages worth just to see what the hooplah was about.

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Yeah, sure, just to see what the hooplah was about. We won't judge you.

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Many of the people who were buying it were not people who I would have thought likely to be openly buying anything billed as erotica -- very average-looking readers who were picking it up as they might the latest thriller on the best-seller list or even the latest from Oprah's Book Club.

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Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I read about 3 pages worth just to see what the hooplah was about.

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Yeah, sure, just to see what the hooplah was about. We won't judge you.

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by ecumaniac:

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Bartolomeo, see what I mean?

Congratulations, Ecumaniac, on your second post in Purg in about a month, and your third in at least five years.

Big Brother is watching us. (Or is it Big Sister)?

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Well, as I post in here far more often, let me add my own . Because I know the Dead Horses thread you were seemingly scarred by and in my opinion your contributions were worth an , and you re-raising it here deserves a few more .
 

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Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :
 
It is very difficult to write any sex well, never mind erotica. On several writers' forums, there are password-protected sub-forums for professional writers of erotica and they are amongst the most hardworking sub-forums because erotica as a genre (probably not the best way to describe it, but still) is so hackneyed and lends itself to the unintentionally comic or ludicrous.

Bad sex writing doesn't leave the reader sexually aroused or tempted to read on, it leaves the reader bored, slightly revolted or laughing at the hero and heroine.

I suspect that 50 Shades managed to find a niche readership that doesn't read very much erotica and so sold as a novelty.
 

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Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on :
 
A lot of publishers are very much in a tizzy about Mommy Porn and such; even before 50 Shades, there was some thought (yes, I know, bad time to not remember where you found the article) that ebooks were stimulating erotica sales on Amazon and such—something about the Kindle being the modern day plain brown wrapper. You could load up your smut, take it on the train, and read it on your way to and from work as the ultimate in mindless reading, and nobody would be any the wiser.

Speaking of "mindless," this might be one explanation for the popularity of 50 Shades and its ilk in the digital era—now that any chance of being found out is reduced and the stigma, at least among women, is going away, a perfectly brainless-but-validating form of fiction is entering the mainstream. After a long day of being In Charge, of thinking, and wearing yourself out, perhaps its nice to fantasize about someone else wanting you, being in control, and, well, not having to think or do anything. You can become an object, something that may have a few desires, but no tiring will to have to exercise. For a half-dead commuter, that's probably a pretty strong desire.

As for why so many sex scenes suck . . . meh, you try writing one. It either degrades into Naming of Parts or Giggly Euphamism, neither of which is at all sexy. If you don't want the Starr Report, you risk truly wretched and tortured purple prose. Foreplay and teasing, there's something you can describe.* What comes after it? Are there really that many ways to say "and then they fucked" better than "and then they fucked?" Perhaps BDSM is more fun/easier to describe (less risk of sounding Clinical or cutesy, more variety and action than "tab A goes in slots 1, 2, and/or 3"), explaining why a fair bit of erotica isn't entirely vanilla—and, well, an author can mix ATTF'd with shop-manual prose if the time comes.

*A friend of mine once had a creative writing teacher who tried to write erotic novels, but skipped over the sex scenes—you'd get foreplay, a section break, and then the afterglow. For some reason, there seems to be something wrong with this.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

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Originally posted by Mary LA:
It is very difficult to write any sex well, never mind erotica. On several writers' forums, there are password-protected sub-forums for professional writers of erotica and they are amongst the most hardworking sub-forums because erotica as a genre (probably not the best way to describe it, but still) is so hackneyed and lends itself to the unintentionally comic or ludicrous.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mary LA:
It is very difficult to write any sex well, never mind erotica. On several writers' forums, there are password-protected sub-forums for professional writers of erotica and they are amongst the most hardworking sub-forums because erotica as a genre (probably not the best way to describe it, but still) is so hackneyed and lends itself to the unintentionally comic or ludicrous.

Bad sex writing doesn't leave the reader sexually aroused or tempted to read on, it leaves the reader bored, slightly revolted or laughing at the hero and heroine.

I suspect that 50 Shades managed to find a niche readership that doesn't read very much erotica and so sold as a novelty.

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by ecumaniac:

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Bartolomeo, see what I mean?

Congratulations, Ecumaniac, on your second post in Purg in about a month, and your third in at least five years.

Big Brother is watching us. (Or is it Big Sister)?

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If you want to get personal, then I'll see you in Hell.

Otherwise we can get back to discussing the book then, shall we?

I've succumbed, because of this thread - I downloaded the things yesterday, and will load them on to my e-reader for weekend train reading. If they turn out to be as awful as people are saying, at least I've got my Doctor Who fanfic on the kindle already.
 

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Posted by windsofchange (# 13000) on :
 
I read the free sample on my Kindle after hearing the book being discussed by several people whose opinions I normally respect as "classy", "sophisticated", etc.

All I can say is, if I'm going to spend any more of my valuable reading time on porn, I'm going to try and find something a LOT better written!

Luther said it best: if you're going to sin, sin boldly!

[ 22. June 2012, 22:42: Message edited by: windsofchange ]
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
I've noticed that at our local Chapters and Coles the newest thing, in the last couple of weeks, is a display shelf with "If you liked 50 Shades, try reading ..." and several erotic novels (sometimes with a "For Mature Readers Only" note. So I guess the popularity of this series is bringing erotica out of the closet and to the front of the bookstore shelves. Opinions will vary as to whether this is a good or bad thing, of course.
 

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Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
Not read it so can't really comment with full authority.

I'm interested in the people bemoaning it's popularity on the grounds that it's anti feminist to want to imagine being dominated. It's a fantasy. It's escapism. And....therefor not real? Isn't that a pretty simple concept?

Some of my female friends enjoy being dominated in bed and at the same time hold very feminst views. It really isn't a mutually exclusive deal.
 

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Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :
 

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Originally posted by Bartolomeo:

1) Why is this book popular?

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3) Should Christians avoid reading it on moral grounds?

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Not, I think, just because its about sex. I don't think there is anything in Christian morality that ought to make sex an unmentionable subject.

Christian ethics, though, do teach that there is such a thing as a sin of lust. While there is no universally agreed upon definition of what counts as lust, the principle that there are sexual thoughts and attitudes which it is wrong to entertain is mainstream Christian teaching.

I would say that it is certainly possible that some erotic writing might cause some Christians to devalue or objectify their partners (or potential partners), or cause them to feel guilt and shame which tends to blight their lives, or which could lead them to putting their personal sexual satisfaction at too high a place in their priority list. Those people can and should avoid reading material which is likely to harm them. They should probably not try make 'no erotica' a universal rule for Christians, or judge others for their different opinions on what is harmful or moral.
 

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Posted by Paddy O'Furniture (# 12953) on :
 
I'll tell you what's really frightening--supposed Christian erotica! I read this story one time... and dammit, I haven't been successful in finding it again but maybe the author took it off the website... anyway, it was a very badly written erotica story involving a man, his wife, a stranger in the park, and... Jesus! I kid you not.

The man and his wife drive to a park late at night and they proceed to get it on in full view of a jogger who sees what's going on, tries not to stare and then is invited to "sample the goods" briefly while the husband watches. The dialogue is ridiculous but then it gets downright bizarre as the man begins to pray to Jesus, out loud while the stranger is having his way with the man's wife. Right before she has an orgasm, the man makes the stranger stop, takes his place and he and his wife have a "holy orgasm". The wife tells her husband that she was blessed by Jesus to share her orgasm with her husband and the stranger.


 

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Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
Sounds like really, really bad FanFic.
 

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Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
Like FanFic on par with the ones Trek fans write, making Kirk and Spock lovers.

Am I the only one who generally skips the sex scenes in any book? It's the lead-up I would actually have any interest in. All but a very, very few sex scenes inevitably descend into a combination of 1) anatomy lesson, and 2) groping for a better body part vocabulary.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Couldn't you have used a flowery euphemism for 'groping'?
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

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Originally posted by wilson:
True enough but the purpose of erotica is no more to portray "real sex" than the purpose of romance novels is to give a guide to real relationships.

It's escapism.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by wilson:
True enough but the purpose of erotica is no more to portray "real sex" than the purpose of romance novels is to give a guide to real relationships.

It's escapism.

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Some researchers believe romance novels, romantic comedies and the like are actually harmful to real relationships, while others argue it is merely escapism.
Not sure myself, though I have observed many people are more influenced by what they view as fiction than they realize. Discuss the law with people outside the legal profession and what you hear will likely owe more to fiction on the telly than a real courtroom.

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Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
The audiobook version, read by Gilbert Gottfried, AKA The AFLAC Duck.

Needless to say, this is so NSFW, it's . . . well, actually, it is funny, come to think of it.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
enjoyed this meme spreading on facebook:

one shade of gray

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Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on :
 

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
enjoyed this meme spreading on facebook:

one shade of gray

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Sinfest has been discussing feminism quite a bit lately. A lot of the people in the comments section think it's not funny at all—that strip in particular generated a fair bit of ire. "But they haaaattteee men! We're being oppressed!"
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Having not known a thing about '50 shades of grey' until today , I'll attempt to answer your first question "Why is this book so popular".

My guess is that it's become popular because some, (presumably female readers), claimed to have had their sex lives invigorated as a direct result of having read it from cover to cover.

Which in turn , of course, is immediately makes a source of intrigue to men as-well .

The prefect Xmas gift for the lady maybe ?. Suppose it beats a bottle of Gladiator's blood , --something Roman gents were alleged to have got their wives to drink in the belief it heightened the female libido .
Nothing new under the sun .
 

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Posted by Eleanor Jane (# 13102) on :
 
Gosh, scary that I've read almost all the books The Guardian recommends... and most of them in my teens, too! Couldn't stand Flowers in the Attic though.

I still remember with some bewilderment how I stumbled across an actual erotic novel in a book sale, took it home and read it (found it very unerotic, rather clinical descriptions of anal sex etc) then my mum read it and didn't say a word to me about it! I was about 14!

If anyone's keen on vampires/werewolves n sex, I recommend bits of Laurell K Hamilton. Some of her later books get a bit crap but she has some great characters, interesting plots and lots and lots of bonking!
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Lace went round my school (it was on TV at the time) and yep, all I can remember is wincing every time I walked past a fishtank for weeks afterwards.

I didn't read Riders but did read some of Jilly Cooper's short stories with girls' names. The one I remember most was about a vicar's daughter and has a very funny part where she can't wait for Matins to end so she can hook up with her tennis player hunk, and her father unexpectedly includes the Litany in the service.
 

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Posted by birdie (# 2173) on :
 

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Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
The audiobook version, read by Gilbert Gottfried, AKA The AFLAC Duck.

Needless to say, this is so NSFW, it's . . . well, actually, it is funny, come to think of it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eleanor Jane:
If anyone's keen on vampires/werewolves n sex, I recommend bits of Laurell K Hamilton. Some of her later books get a bit crap but she has some great characters, interesting plots and lots and lots of bonking!

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It ...really does illustrate that the biggest factor in selling something seems to be to get people talking about it -- regardless of the quality of what's inside the package.

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It's interesting that this woman (40 something, on a commuter train) was happy to recommend a work of erotic fiction to two unknown 40 something women. It felt like some sort of societal change.

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Originally posted by Evangeline:
[QUOTE]
I must say that those conferences changed my perception of romance novels. I just don't understand why feminists are so anti the genre, it's a business where women write for other women and most of the editors and agents are women. The professional, assertive and highly educated (on the most part) women who write these novels are certainly not victims of the patriarchy. Romance novelists are also quite likely to make a living out of writing, unlike those who write in most other genres.

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I don't think it's the writers feminists are concerned about-- it's the message they are sending their readers in ( to your point, ironically) often presenting an image of women as helpless victims waiting to be rescued.
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
It would be similar to actors who appeared in 70s blacksploitation films. Great to see African American actors getting work, but the message they delivered was/is considered generally not helpful to the cause.
 

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Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :
 
I haven't read the book, so can't comment much on it, but I was surprised when a married couple, long-time friends of my parents (who, like their friends, are in their 60s and 70s), gave it to my mom when they were at dinner with my parents, telling her that they thought it was such a neat book and she should read it.

She hasn't read it yet (I did tell her briefly what it is about) and I have no idea what her reaction will be when she does!
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
There's a gaggle of 30-something gals at work who are constantly discussing this book in coy, yet arch, *ooh, aren't we sophisticated and liberated and blasé* tones. It's like Women's Lib never happened - or maybe the backlash means we have to reinvent that wheel (or some of its spokes).

As I've not read it (currently enjoying Game of Thrones Vol I which, with the rest of that series, is gonna keep me going for some time), I can't comment on its literary merit tho' it does sound as if the author was pitched in the right place at the right time (rather like JK Rowling whose prose, to me, is a cross between Jennings meets Terry Pratchett on a really off-day - tho' I appreciate that it gets kids reading and that is a supremely good thing).

I also agree that books of this nature should be read by reasonably early post-pubescent girls - I wish I had read Justine and Juliette earlier - would have made me think twice about hanging about with some dodgy geezers
 

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Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :
 

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JK Rowling whose prose, to me, is a cross between Jennings meets Terry Pratchett on a really off-day

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Leaving aside the confusion between character and author, that's a serious insult to both Pratchett and Buckeridge! Even on an off-day!
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
a seriously off day
 

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Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It would be similar to actors who appeared in 70s blacksploitation films. Great to see African American actors getting work, but the message they delivered was/is considered generally not helpful to the cause.

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
There's a gaggle of 30-something gals at work who are constantly discussing this book in coy, yet arch, *ooh, aren't we sophisticated and liberated and blasé* tones. It's like Women's Lib never happened - or maybe the backlash means we have to reinvent that wheel (or some of its spokes).

As I've not read it (currently enjoying Game of Thrones Vol I which, with the rest of that series, is gonna keep me going for some time), I can't comment on its literary merit tho' it does sound as if the author was pitched in the right place at the right time (rather like JK Rowling whose prose, to me, is a cross between Jennings meets Terry Pratchett on a really off-day - tho' I appreciate that it gets kids reading and that is a supremely good thing).

I also agree that books of this nature should be read by reasonably early post-pubescent girls - I wish I had read Justine and Juliette earlier - would have made me think twice about hanging about with some dodgy geezers

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
"feisty" is often used to describe romance novel heroines-- and the term itself rings of sexism to my ears. It feels like a diminutive, the kind of language adults use when talking about children.

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Originally posted by Evangeline:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
"feisty" is often used to describe romance novel heroines-- and the term itself rings of sexism to my ears. It feels like a diminutive, the kind of language adults use when talking about children.

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It depends on the baggage you bring to it I think. I do understand where you're coming from, it could be patronising "she's a feisty little thing......ha ha" but when talking about romance novel heroines IME it is just a shorthand way of describing a heroine at the start of her character arc.

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Originally posted by birdie:

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Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
The audiobook version, read by Gilbert Gottfried, AKA The AFLAC Duck.

Needless to say, this is so NSFW, it's . . . well, actually, it is funny, come to think of it.

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In a similar vein... A (Drunken) Dramatic reading of 50 Shades.

NSFW, obviously, and also NSFanywhereitmattersifyoulaughloudly.

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'She knelt before me on the shed floor & tugged gently then harder until finally it came. I moaned with pleasure. Now for the other boot ..'

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Originally posted by rolyn:
Question 3 . Should Christians not read '50 shades' on moral grounds ?

I'd be surprised if this book contains anything more shocking than the Bible does.

I haven't read this book but we seem to be talking about something that appeals to the darker side of a woman's sexuality.
So are we saying women can't be trusted to explore the less graceful aspects of themselves without turning into She-devils ?

It's been par-for-the-course with the men for Centuries , by no means all of them have turned out to be wicked rapists , (contrary to what the feminist movement would have us believe).

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

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Originally posted by Evangeline:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
"feisty" is often used to describe romance novel heroines-- and the term itself rings of sexism to my ears. It feels like a diminutive, the kind of language adults use when talking about children.

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It depends on the baggage you bring to it I think. I do understand where you're coming from, it could be patronising "she's a feisty little thing......ha ha" but when talking about romance novel heroines IME it is just a shorthand way of describing a heroine at the start of her character arc.

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But, see that's the point-- it's a narrative arc that begins with feisty til the inevitable transformation when she realizes she needs her hunky cowboy/ firefighter/ international businessman/ European royalty.

Sadly, in my misspent youth I devoured this c**p. Empowering it is not. But it does make a good living for the authors, hard enough to do these days.

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I hate the fact that I'm sounding like an apologist for M&B
The character arc for the hero is much more like what you describe, he's an arrogant, used to getting his own way billionaire (usually Greek)/minor royal from some principality/rancher etc but he realises he is nothing without the woman he loves. The heroine usually goes from feisty to more mature, eg she realises she was wrong in hiding her baby from its father or something.

I wonder if there's a cultural difference here though-my experience of M&B is based on the giveaways I've read from Aussie authors at conference -maybe aussie authors are generally different. Also it's interesting that you say you devoured them in your youth-I didn't, read a couple and thought them laughable when I was in high school so just in the last few years I've read some through meeting authors and getting giveaways. Perhaps M&B and the other romance novels have responded to the feminist criticism and they've improved in the last few years?
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
sadly, that does not appear to be the case.
 

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Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on :
 
Is it bad that reading this thread (and similar discussions of 50 Shades and its ilk) makes me want to become the second male romance author?
After all, it's can't be that hard; to roughly quote the other one, "I've been in love, I can write about it." The rest should follow naturally, right?
 

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Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :
 
The book itself sounds awful. The title brought to mind Glasgow in February, and the resulting image of Rab C in his string vest wielding the poker is somewhat gruesome. However, that is beside the point.

What is more interesting is how it resonates. Not so very long ago, just about everyone would have found the subject matter (BDSM) gruesome, and even those who didn't would have said they did. Like the Max Moseley libel trial, this event illustrates a greater tolerance of exploring the - perhaps odder - parts of one's being, and if this is done within consensual parameters, how can it be a bad thing?

It strikes me as less odd than Opus Dei's approach to self-inflicted pain.
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

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Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
Is it bad that reading this thread (and similar discussions of 50 Shades and its ilk) makes me want to become the second male romance author?
After all, it's can't be that hard; to roughly quote the other one, "I've been in love, I can write about it." The rest should follow naturally, right?

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Originally posted by Eleanor Jane:
I still remember with some bewilderment how I stumbled across an actual erotic novel in a book sale, took it home and read it (found it very unerotic, rather clinical descriptions of anal sex etc) then my mum read it and didn't say a word to me about it! I was about 14!

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I was a child in the 60s, with teenage older brothers. There was a copy of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" at home which I read from cover to cover and then reread all the bits at which the book naturally fell open because others before me had read them more than once. I can't have been more than 9 years old.

I haven't read "50 Shades of Grey" but it's a topic of conversation in a number of my friendship circles - from my newly married daughter, who says all the women in her workplace are talking about it, to the 50-plus friend I had coffee with yesterday who hadn't been able to find it in our local bookshop and was too shy to ask so I went in with her to help her. There followed a lively debate in the queue at the till with a pensioner-aged lady in front of us, about how my friend was buying it purely for academic interest. Everyone I know seems to have heard of it.

So to answer the OP's questions, I think the book is now popular because people are curious about it. How it became popular is a slightly different question, but it probably relates to the answer to the second question - that society... people, that is... is always interested in sex - how other people do it, how often, and with whom - and if it can gee-up the sex life of those to whom it's become a rare and routine one-minute exercise then let's give it a go. I'd be interested to hear more about the possible moral grounds for avoiding it. I don't see what's wrong with reading things that make you feel aroused as long as it isn't a habit that lasts all day.
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Frankly, I'd much rather people read erotica than used porn - it is so much less exploitative.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 

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Originally posted by George Spigot:

Ohhh you were doing so well and then you go and spoil it with that ridiculous last line.

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Originally posted by Mary LA:
I suspect that 50 Shades managed to find a niche readership that doesn't read very much erotica and so sold as a novelty.

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Originally posted by eeGAD:
These are very poorly written books. I can't find it now, but someone actually did a word count. Mr. Grey is described as "hot" more than 50 times. The author is repetitive. And moreover, the first book reads as a research paper a high school sophomore wrote after 30 mintues of online surfing. The heroine is poorly conceived, or a "Mary Sue" as my fan-fic writing daughter tells me. There is no there there. She's a perfect blank slate, so any adventures into an unknown land have no stakes, no weight for the reader. It would've been the same book if the hero was into oragami, or finger paining, or herbology. The heroine has no personality for the reader to relate to. And Grey has only one emotion - dictatorial. There is no chemistry between the character except for what the writer insisits is there, although she never shows us. Her lack of command of the language is most frustrating. By the time we get deep into the 3rd book to reveal why Grey is the way he is, it is almost as an after-thought. It lacks subtly, sensitivity, or sense. I had to read that section twice to figure out that this was, in fact, the Big Reveal. I would never hold up this writer as a good example of anything except failure.

In terms of literary quality - they are exactly what their history tells us they are. Crap writing inspired by crap writing (Twilight).

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Originally posted by Cod:
The book itself sounds awful. The title brought to mind Glasgow in February, and the resulting image of Rab C in his string vest wielding the poker is somewhat gruesome. However, that is beside the point.

What is more interesting is how it resonates. Not so very long ago, just about everyone would have found the subject matter (BDSM) gruesome, and even those who didn't would have said they did. Like the Max Moseley libel trial, this event illustrates a greater tolerance of exploring the - perhaps odder - parts of one's being, and if this is done within consensual parameters, how can it be a bad thing?

It strikes me as less odd than Opus Dei's approach to self-inflicted pain.

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Originally posted by anoesis:
- anyway, has anyone else seen/read this:

The Way of a Man with a Maid Full Text It dates from 1908 and is pretty heavy on the BDSM - it's also sufficiently badly written that it manages to be boring even as the sexual acts get more and more strange...

Wikipedia entry Way of a Man with a Maid

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Originally posted by eeGAD:
Moo - The Beauty books are my pick fro this year's "summer books". I just haven't started them yet!

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
- anyway, has anyone else seen/read this:

The Way of a Man with a Maid Full Text It dates from 1908 and is pretty heavy on the BDSM - it's also sufficiently badly written that it manages to be boring even as the sexual acts get more and more strange...

Wikipedia entry Way of a Man with a Maid

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Not even fucking close! That one is a rape fantasy. As many faults as shades of grey has, it is consensual.* Sorry if this seems to be an over-reaction, but rape fantasies piss me right off.


*I've only read excerpts and synopses, so this is an ISTM.

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Originally posted by eeGAD:
Moo - The Beauty books are my pick fro this year's "summer books". I just haven't started them yet!

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I haven't posted on this thread.



Moo
 

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Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cod:
What is more interesting is how it resonates. Not so very long ago, just about everyone would have found the subject matter (BDSM) gruesome, and even those who didn't would have said they did. Like the Max Moseley libel trial, this event illustrates a greater tolerance of exploring the - perhaps odder - parts of one's being

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I never wanted to be a poster girl for BDSM. Some just have notoriety thrust upon them. [...]

Long story short. I was sacked for taking two photos and for attending private BDSM clubs. No publicity. At all. Ever.

This is wrong. Obviously. Except to a neanderthal employer. A large, publicly funded employer, who should know better.

[...]I'm a social worker, and I think it was quite correct to investigate whether these allegations had any bearing on my work.

But let's get real for a moment. I am an 'ordinary' person, been to a handful of clubs in my life, always taken great care to keep my work and private life separate just like a lot of people,and have done so successfully for 10 years until now. I have an exemplary work record and hoped I had a career for life.

Even police and NHS staff (who had no clue what I got up to in my own time) were prepared to pitch up at my Hearing and say so, which I am told is unusual.
[...]
Luckily I had friends & family with some experience of employment issues, who fought my corner. Also lucky, one of the first things I'd done after being released from 5 hours in the cells was call Backlash, because when I was first arrested I had been advised by a duty solicitor that some of my photography could be classed as sadomasochistic; this actually turned out not to be the case at all.

[...]You can find out more about the work of Backlash by visiting them on www.back lash-uk.org.uk/donate.html

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I don't really understand the whole thing about fanfiction though. How is using someone else's characters not a breach of copyright? Or is it dome with the originak writer's consent? I've obviously missed something here.

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
People like it for the same reason that they like poorly written half hour sitcoms or silly movies, for pure entertainment. These same people can enjoy bad sitcoms or silly movies or unpolished writing and still enjoy creative tv shows, complex movies and literature.

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Originally posted by Huia:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
People like it for the same reason that they like poorly written half hour sitcoms or silly movies, for pure entertainment. These same people can enjoy bad sitcoms or silly movies or unpolished writing and still enjoy creative tv shows, complex movies and literature.

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Fool on the hill - thanks for that, it helped me realise that I have different standards for TV and what I read, which I hadn't realised before. I will watch all kinds of rubbish, but I really get annoyed with books where the writing doesn't flow well.

I'm not sure why I have such different standards - possibly because most TV here is of such a low standard I've given up hoping for it to improve.

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Originally posted by Alogon:
Be careful about writing anything that might remotely be construed as critical of BDSM. As I've recently learned the hard way, some of its devotees, whether out of touchiness or eagerness to try you on as a potential partner, could come out of the woodwork to assail you.

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Hi!
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

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Tubbs: For example, Star Trek writers’ contracts forbad them from reading fanfic. This meant that they weren’t open to accusations of nicking ideas from fanfic they’d read to use in the programmes.

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