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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Who is welcome at your church?
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I've been reading a book "Assimilating New Members" by Lyle E Schaller, a church consultant, which includes a chapter "Whom do we exclude?" His point is anything we do attracts some and repels others, we need to be aware of who we are repelling as well as who we are attracting, make sure both are intentional choices.
For example, a church that has cut some pews in a way that creates space for wheelchair riders is more welcoming to them than is a church where they have to park in a narrow aisle blocking the way and getting the chair bumped into or off in a side chapel sitting apart from the congregation (I used to join a friend in the side chapel sometimes, sitting on the floor to be near her.) But a church with pews no longer uniform might be less attractive and thus less welcoming to people who value visual beauty, including wedding couples.
A man I know wants his church to put a picture on the web page of a multi-generational family -- what he is. I said a church that declares itself all about families is stating it doesn't want single adults, homosexual couples, childless widows etc. (Actually, that is true of his church -- non-familied are handed a bulletin with a smile but are not chatted with at coffee or included in private social events like lunch after church. Been there.)
I would say the local Episcopal church excludes non-English speakers, people who don't like fairly high worship style, deaf, blind, wheelchair riders. "Excluded" in the sense that they would be greeted with a smile but there is no accommodation to their needs.
Not that exclusion is wrong, no church can do it all.
I like the idea of knowing who we are eager to include in the community and who we aren't -- both formally and informally -- so people won't waste time trying our church, whether because it just isn't set up for the blind or because the people are 98% married and are not going to socialize with non-marrieds.
Who does your church exclude?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think most churches would be surprised if they were accused of excluding anyone, as they don't intend to be unwelcoming at all. However, I do agree that - rather like the Hidden Curriculum in schools - there are often unintentional messages of unwelcome.
Many years ago, I belonged to a church which appeared to welcome all, but the invisible message written over the door said 'We welcome everyone except gays, women priests and choristers'.
It's much harder to examine the church you are in, as you're too much part of it, and my present church is in a state of transition, which means the message is altering all the time. Come back to me when things have settled down, in a year or two, and I might be able to answer your question more accurately.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Who is excluded from my previous church? Me. That is why I had to leave.
The current place I go to occasionally does not consciously exclude anyone, but will tend to exclude those who like structure and liturgy. And tidy sermons. And smoothly led worship.
Most churches tend to exclude people who are not "like them".
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In my inner city Charismatic (so we're told) Evangelical Anglican church the poor are if they're embraced in, vouched for. One friend was seated at the back a couple or three years ago by a still recent employee. Not if I'd have been with him.
I just long for the day when the tattooed, beer drinking, dope smoking, effing every other effing word sorry for swearing guys we're allowed to serve in a side room once a month now fortnight now see you next week for a greater depth Sunday follow-up to the Friday night post-prandial God-slot have to swap with the worshippers in the main hall.
At my age I ask you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Mystery Worshipper anyone?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Any time you like! Holy Trinity Leicester. Come with a skinhead haircut and stub your rollie out as you come in. Because if you come as a nice middle-class spy, you won't notice anything.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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WhateverTheySay
Shipmate
# 16598
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Posted
I recently decided to leave a church where the others are too social and don't allow me to sit quietly and pray before the service. They were always more interested in knowing how my week was or talking about the weather. I know they are only trying to be nice, but I really hate it so I decided my best option was to leave and find another church.
I would also be excluded from any church that does not offer an evening service, as getting to a Sunday morning service is pretty much impossible for me. Not only am I a night owl, but the buses don't start running until much later and by time the first bus has arrived I would have missed part of the service.
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I'm not lost, I just don't know where I am going
Posts: 872 | From: Lost in Space, without a map | Registered: Aug 2011
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Any time you like! Holy Trinity Leicester. Come with a skinhead haircut and stub your rollie out as you come in. Because if you come as a nice middle-class spy, you won't notice anything.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that Mystery Worship! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Come with a skinhead haircut and stub your rollie out as you come in. Because if you come as a nice middle-class spy, you won't notice anything.
Oooh, I never thought of doing mystery worship as a Goth!
I doubt any church (other than, say, white supremacist back alleys) consciously excludes anyone.
I'm intrigue by the challenge to know who you exclude, make conscious decisions about who you are and who you are not able to serve well. Partly it leads to awareness of minor changes that would make some people more welcome.
Partly it focuses awareness on the limits, which can help focus church resources and also help those looking for a church. Knowing "we really don't have anything for singles, this is a family-oriented church" or "for wheelchair riders, the sanctuary is accessible but social events take place up a flight of stairs" saves a lot of time for those looking for a church.
Especially the social lack of inclusion for certain "types" would be valuable to know ahead of time, sparing months or years of time spent in churches where the people really are not going to build community with "your type." That's harder to dig out, actual willingness to include people vs stated willingness.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhateverTheySay:
I recently decided to leave a church where the others are too social and don't allow me to sit quietly and pray before the service. They were always more interested in knowing how my week was or talking about the weather. I know they are only trying to be nice, but I really hate it so I decided my best option was to leave and find another church.
I would also be excluded from any church that does not offer an evening service, as getting to a Sunday morning service is pretty much impossible for me. Not only am I a night owl, but the buses don't start running until much later and by time the first bus has arrived I would have missed part of the service.
Two classic examples of how whatever you do to, some people will be included and some will be excluded.
To look at the two examples you gave, I asked myself the question about where the balance lies at our church.
On the first, the things that matter are the limitations of the building we have, the large numbers of people there (spread evenly across all generations) and the short time between services. That makes it logistically difficult to have a quiet time before a service, but the main thing is our focus on intentionally noticing people and leaving no cracks to fall through - insisting on quiet before the service would impact on this focus and exclude more people than it would specifically include.
On the second, my church doesn't run a Sunday evening service for a number of reasons. The main is that research in Australia points towards Sunday evening services in churches of less than 3,000 people being attended almost exclusively by a subset of those who also attended a service in the morning. If there was more missional opportunity then it might become more of a priority, but until that materialises there won't be any chance of asking the congregation to double the amount of time they spend serving at church just so the same bunch of people can come to two services each Sunday. We've had a Saturday evening one in the past, but that has been discontinued because it was taking a huge amount of volunteer/staff manpower to run for a group who weren't taking any ownership and was identified as having less missional potential than a number of other ministry initiatives.
I realise that there are people like you out there who can't make it to a Sunday morning due to work, sporting commitments and so on. However, we have to take a wider view and consider that the areas we ask people to serve need to be areas with the greatest missional opportunity, the areas with the greatest needs in the local community and the areas which are least-duplicated by our local sister churches. The last thing we want to be is a church which consumes our volunteers so much they are burnt out and left without any time or energy to go out and be Christ's witnesses in their world.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
One of the reasons we built an addition to our original building was to make it more accessible to the elderly and physically challenged. Our anything-goes dress code, which encompasses everything from traditional Sunday-go-to-church-wear to motorcycle jackets and farmer overalls, I think puts people at ease, particularly people who aren't doing well financially and who feel self-conscious about appearance. And, despite a lot of small-town thinking in other areas, our church actually is inclusive and welcoming to LGBT folks, "outsiders" and others who sometimes feel unwelcome in rural church settings.
That's the good news.
The bad news is that, like other Shippies' churches, apparently, our church's lack of care during the worship service -- everything from appointed helpers not bothering to show up and someone having to be recruited from the pew to acolyte or present-and-serve or whatever, to badly read lessons to badly executed music to a general hippie vibe -- puts off people who want their experience of worship to be reverent and orderly, instead of a cluster-canoodle.
We're headed to a holiday meetup with our kids and granddaughter up north. During that time I may get an hour to steal away and attend church. I know I'm not going to the local ELCA congregation, because when DP and I visited last year it had the same chaotic energy, and without even a standard small-c catholic liturgy to provide minimal structure. They're apparently crypto-Evos who've dropped nearly every bit of standard liturgy from their service. To add to that, practically no one said hello or made any other effort to engage with us, and even the pastor seemed to be looking past us as we introduced ourselves. DP and I definitely didn't feel welcome there. The ELCA congo up the highway in the next village was entirely different; by-the-book, un-hip, with only minimal programming other than Sunday service, but with a very friendly congregation and pastor. It's worth it to us to spend an extra 20 minutes in the morning driving to this church when we're staying in the area.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
We're an "Inclusive" church and so I reckon that people who were nasty to some people would not be welcomed. We've also got plenty of space for people on their wheelchairs, and they can get communion brought to them, also for people who are sitting down and unable to get standing for communion.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
This is my congregation's welcoming statement
At Trinity Lutheran Church we are:
Called: People of every nationality, language, education, ability, gender identity, race, sexual orientation, marital status and income.
Gathered: To worship, learn, and nurture.
Sent: All people, servants together, out into the world as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
As your heart beats within you, you are welcome.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
Gramps, your church sounds wonderful.
I live in a small South African farming village with large informal settlements all around. There are many Xhosa and Sotho people who find work on the farms here and refugees from Zimbabwe, the Congo and Angola.
The Dutch Reformed Church (NGK) is the most affluent and conservative church in the community and is attended by many farming families from outlying farms. Black people may only attend funerals of their employers when they sit at the back. It is Afrikaans-speaking.
The small Anglican church is multiracial but homophobic and refuses to allow the openly gay son of a member to attend. Only English is spoken although many of those who attend are from slave descent and speak Afrikaans.
The evangelical church is all-white and will not allow members to take communion unless the elders are satisfied that they are in good standing with the Lord. They collect funds for evangelical churches in America. Anyone who has attended a Roman Catholic service and wants to go to the evangelical church has to sign a statement renouncing Rome and the papacy.
The Catholic church was allowed into the village only in the 1950s and could only be built in what was then a 'black location' facing away from the village because of fear of the 'Roman peril' or 'Romesgevaar'. There are very few priests in this area, so most Sundays there are communion services, attended by many locals and refugees including homesick Voudoun practitioners who have no Voudoun place of worship. Services or Masses are conducted in 11 Nguni languages as well as French and Portuguese.
The largest churches are in the informal settlements and are Ethiopian/Zionist African Independent Churches at which everyone is welcome, spirit-led by women prophets. A growing number of white people attend these services although the occasional ritual sacrifice of poultry or cattle tend to make them squeamish.
I attend the Roman Catholic Church here but also attend Aids funerals and do community work with the African Independent Churches. The last are probably the most welcoming.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I'm colourblind. Therefore I think all liturgical churches exclude me; they are institutionally insensitive to my needs and entirely irrelevant to my way of worshipping because of all the different colours for the seasons - I can't tell if its Lent or Christmas.
They need to stop using colours so I can worship properly and feel welcome....
...either that or I have to get over myself and remind myself that I can be too sensitive and see offence and exclusion where there is none. And also remind myself that worship is not about me.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I'm colourblind. Therefore I think all liturgical churches exclude me; they are institutionally insensitive to my needs and entirely irrelevant to my way of worshipping because of all the different colours for the seasons - I can't tell if its Lent or Christmas.
They need to stop using colours so I can worship properly and feel welcome....
...either that or I have to get over myself and remind myself that I can be too sensitive and see offence and exclusion where there is none. And also remind myself that worship is not about me.
I don't agree.
If you were in my class I would make reasonable adjustments for your colourblindness. I would make sure other teachers and TAs understood that your whacky colouring-in of maps wasn't due to you not listening. I would use pattern instead of colour to help you. I'd check if you could see the board and that I wasn't using combinations which blend into each other for you.
The same with childen/adults on tha ASD spectrum - many things can be done (and are in some Churches) to improve accessibility for them.
Why can't we accommodate individuals in corporate activities? It takes sensitivity to the possible problems people may have - and some effort of course.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
This is my congregation's welcoming statement
At Trinity Lutheran Church we are:
Called: People of every nationality, language, education, ability, gender identity, race, sexual orientation, marital status and income.
Gathered: To worship, learn, and nurture.
Sent: All people, servants together, out into the world as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
As your heart beats within you, you are welcome.
Yes but have you got the folding table ready for the person who uses the Braille Hymnbook? How do you cope with the children who run around during worship? More importantly how does the most uptight person in the congregation, because that is who the parents will pick up the signals from? How do you cope with the guy who nicked an old ladies purse last week? Or the drunk who can't control his bladder during a service? What about the convicted paedophile?
I am not making these up, I have faced these situations within congregations I have worshipped with.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
WOW! I wish we did! Well we do actually. We have first and second class services.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Yes, Paedophiles are a tough one. When my boys were young, there was one at our church (now dead) - he was welcomed just the same as everyone else, but individual parents were quietly taken aside and informed of the situation. (Of course, he was never given free access to where children might be on their own.) Probably the best way to deal with it. I certainly appreciated being told.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I'm colourblind. Therefore I think all liturgical churches exclude me; they are institutionally insensitive to my needs and entirely irrelevant to my way of worshipping because of all the different colours for the seasons - I can't tell if its Lent or Christmas.
They need to stop using colours so I can worship properly and feel welcome....
...either that or I have to get over myself and remind myself that I can be too sensitive and see offence and exclusion where there is none. And also remind myself that worship is not about me.
I don't agree.
If you were in my class I would make reasonable adjustments for your colourblindness. I would make sure other teachers and TAs understood that your whacky colouring-in of maps wasn't due to you not listening. I would use pattern instead of colour to help you. I'd check if you could see the board and that I wasn't using combinations which blend into each other for you.
The same with childen/adults on tha ASD spectrum - many things can be done (and are in some Churches) to improve accessibility for them.
Why can't we accommodate individuals in corporate activities? It takes sensitivity to the possible problems people may have - and some effort of course.
First of all, although I am colour blind - I've never yet passed any of those dot test things in circles - I was being a little facetious and was suggesting that sometimes the 'minority' can be just a little precious about it's 'special needs'. To expect that the majority must bend over backwards to change everything just to suit them is neither realistic nor respectful of the needs of the majority.
we're not talking about ramps for wheelchairs or the provision of signing or perhaps using an inclusive language Bible here, of course; we're saying 'don't have a picture of a married couple in your brochure because it'll upset a single, don't have a picture of a young man because it'll upset the old women, don't have a picture of a child because it'll upset a childless couple, and don't have mixed-sex people in your picture wearing wedding rings because it'll upset a gay couple who can't have a marriage ceremony!
This is just nonsense - hence the stuff about colour blindness.
And to address your 'serious' solution to colour blindness in a classroom (why have we shifted the venue?), that's fine. Making allowances on a personal level for the colour blind person to get the colours wrong in a map is one thing, but changing everything so the rest of the children can't use regular colours for the maps is totally unrealistic. In churches therefore, what do you suggest for colour blind worshippers in the seasons?
Polka dot patterns for lent, tartan for Christmas and black and white stripes for Advent?
If the season of Pentecost demands red altar coverings and vestments, then fine, the colour blind person will just have to get used to it - it will hardly stop him from praying to God now, will it!? Just tell him it's red and announce the next hymn!
It all smacks of overreaction and pandering to rather spineless thinking that makes people demand that the world and the church owes them a living and should change everything just for them.
In important disability access issues - which are governed by law - that's fine and should be applauded and supported where reasonable; but to avoid offending aquaphobics and non-swimmers by never reading the stilling of the storm or Peter walking on the water is going too far!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I think that we all have our own biases, largely unconscious ones.
One fairly lower-middle class/upper-working class I know contained many highly educated people, in fact it contained many teachers. If a woman or man in smartish dress came in, especially if they came with children they'd get attention.
Once during choir practice a man came into the church, acting socially awkward and showing, well, less intelligence than the first example. The lads in the choir turned and stared at him, and he was given the cold shoulder by the older ones.
A Quaker Meeting I attended was pretty welcoming to young women, or women with children. Men got less attention (by which I mean, people going up to them to talk to them after Meeting).
In the NGO world I know most workers and volunteers are female, and therefore most promotional materials made show women, thus, in my view, strengthening the view that such work is for women.
In each case I believe that people were identifying with people like them, and wanted to make the place welcoming to people like them, in order to meet some need about welcoming themselves. They want to feel welcome themselves, and therefore welcome people similar to them.
While the cathedral I worked in contained plenty people who wore suits/best frocks to the services, and that includes the sidespeople, I honestly believe that people were generally welcoming to most people, including homeless people.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I said faced, I do not mean necessarily faced well but these are the cases that have brought home to me the real cost of being a genuinely welcoming congregation. The failures as much as anything are what prompted this blog post.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
In our church a paedophile would only be allowed to worship if the social worker referred him to us, if we agreed to have him, if he agreed to sign an undertaking, if he agreed to sit in a certain place with an assigned escort and never to go alone to any part of the building and certainly nowhere near the children.
If he didn't agree to this he would not be welcome in the church.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This is ALL good stuff. Chorister ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) it would be CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT not to be open about this.
We had a brilliantly chaotic Friday night Triangle session. We've been out of the way, across the road in a rented building and our easily 80 patrons are out of sight and mind of the mainstream. But we had a fire. So we moved all the guys in to the church, sealed the doors further in to where the kids were: Friday night youth stuff.
This caused multiple outrage and offense, for which I'm glad, as surreptitious drinking and dope smoking was going on outside. Heyyyyyy, welcome to the world. Not that ANY child was exposed to such a subversive sight. One dad was outraged to be interrogated by us for trying an inner door, that we should DARE to assume he was a homeless mentally ill addict ... and try to protect his kid ... you've got to laff.
We will still be criticized, judged and condemned as irresponsible do-gooders I'm sure. Ah! Blessed are the persecuted.
We got it wrong with an Asperger's woman too, I was told to clear the building by the boss (me missus) and our muscle helped in that. She didn't like that. Him. Sorry. Tough. We'll get it better. I was ever-so apologetic. Outside. Get ALL the muscle you can. EVERYONE feels more secure that way. ESPECIALLY the BPDs.
One guy was busted 50 yards down the street by six cops in two unmarked cars. Taken away in a paddy wagon. He's a sweet guy. Loves us. Loves to be unconditionally welcomed in our sanctuary. We'll be there when he comes out. Thank GOD for the police! Even though a couple of them were well up for it, especially when he started kicking the cage door ... I shook hands all round.
A couple of the helpers - INCLUDING the muscle! - were horrified at the police ... I'll be having words about the social ecology.
One 21 year old was sobbing because his 16 year old girlfriend had been banged up for 24 hours in police cells for stealing two Snickers bars. Of course it seems excessive, but like EVERYTHING to do with those we will always have with us, it's the tip of the iceberg.
The Kingdom HAS come.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
OK, hypothetical situation (cough): if you have welcomed in someone on the sex offenders register and put in place an agreement along the lines described by Mudfrog, how do you deal with confidentiality?
So if the sex offender then breaks the agreement and makes contact with young families and children, and is unwilling to comply with the terms of the agreement, how do you then deal with them, bearing in mind that everyone who knows is bound by confidentiality?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Confidentiality can never be absolute. If a child is at risk then the safety of the child comes above confidentiality.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What Boogie says. 110% And I'd NEVER consent in the first place.
[ 24. June 2012, 12:36: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mary LA:
I live in a small South African farming village with large informal settlements all around.
If anyone needs to be a Mystery Worshipper, you do. I invite you to apply.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
At Trinity Lutheran Church we are:
Called: People of every nationality, language, education, ability, gender identity, race, sexual orientation, marital status and income.
Gathered: To worship, learn, and nurture.
Sent: All people, servants together, out into the world as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
As your heart beats within you, you are welcome.
Nice sounding but as an outsider I can tell you it isn't functionally true. You may gladly hand a bulletin to anyone on that list, but you sure aren't offering the materials in 100 languages, right?
Better to know "our materials and services are in English" (or English and German) than seem to invite people who will not really be able to participate, will not be able to chat with other worshipers afterwards.
We may want to be open to all, but functionally none of us can be. And socially is another issue. The church in which I'm on this committee has a severely handicapped man due to a traffic accident years ago, he's in a wheelchair, he can't speak, can't use more than one arm, his sister brings him, struggles to get him in and out of the van alone. I am the only person in a church of 150 who has ever said to her and him "let's go get lunch (there's a deli down the street)." No one helps her get him into the van after church. No one sits with her and him at coffee to chat beyond a brief "hello."
Please don't tell me this church welcomes him. Greeting someone at the door with a smile and serving communion where his chair sits is being minimally human. Welcome would include healthy adults noticing that this woman could use some company and some physical help with her brother, and doing something about it instead of saying to each other "isn't it too bad about him, isn't she a saint" and then go get lunch together at the same deli they had refused to join us in.
No, it's not that they see I have taken care I the situation, I'm an old gray haired lady who can't help lift him into the van, and I don't go to church more than once a month, the other weeks no one talks to them.
Welcome means including people into your interactive community, not just into your church building. The church is us, not the building.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
OK, hypothetical situation (cough): if you have welcomed in someone on the sex offenders register and put in place an agreement along the lines described by Mudfrog, how do you deal with confidentiality?
So if the sex offender then breaks the agreement and makes contact with young families and children, and is unwilling to comply with the terms of the agreement, how do you then deal with them, bearing in mind that everyone who knows is bound by confidentiality?
You talk to their social worker/parole officer/police. Someone outside the church needs to also be involved, who can take more serious action.
And you talk to the person and explain that their behaviour is not compatible with a continued role in the church.
The answer with paedophiles - and anyone else with relevant criminal convictions - is that you welcome them in, but put boundaries that they are not to break.
In many respects, it should be the same as with anyone else, that they should be enabled to avoid areas that are an issue for them.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
In our recent dealings with a pedophile, a person who'd been brain damaged in an accident and had a whole constellation of mental and behavioral problems, we gave him some fairly strict rules of engagement: He was free to worship with us during scheduled services and stick around for fellowship hour but was not to approach children for any reason, nor to proposition women in the congregation/try to become involved with them (another one of this individual's many behavioral issues). He was also told no loitering in the church building. We told him that if he couldn't follow these rules he was no longer welcome in our building, although our pastor would continue to offer spiritual counsel to him if desired.
We also briefed the congregation (with the
individual's knowledge and consent, although he chose not to attend the meeting)about the individual and the rules we'd established.
The individual couldn't keep his end of the bargain -- long story short, he propositioned the adult daughter of one of our members -- and we sent him his walking papers.
Shortly thereafter the local parole officer sent us ANOTHER pedophile -- unlike the severely damaged first individual, who'd actually sexually abused children, this guy was a blend-into-the-crowd fellow busted for statuatory rape for having a sexual relationship with an older-but-still-minor teen. This time we didn't call a congregational meeting, but the pastor gave the man a similar list of rules -- no socialization with minors; leave adult women alone; don't loiter in the church building. Once again the individual failed to comply -- a church member caught him sneaking around with her teenaged granddaughter -- so he wound up back in jail, and in the event he gets sprung he is no longer welcome in our church.
It's a hard line to draw, trying to be welcoming ot all while trying to keep people safe.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
It's a hard line to draw, trying to be welcoming ot all while trying to keep people safe.
Hard to draw the line. Important to kn ow the line must be drawn instead of be blind to that need. The comments on another thread about homeless and bathrooms was eye-opening to me.
In USA how does a homeless person get a social worker, or is that a UK thing? I have a homeless friend (1000 miles away), gets pretty much rejected by churches she walks into asking for help. A social worker who could vouch "she's OK, just one of those decent people who lost it all in bankruptcy" could be a huge help! If any homeless person can get a social worker that would help churches be able to adopt one or two at a time without undue risk.
But I really meant this thread to focus on non-homeless -- what "upstanding citizens" are we unconsciously not including, for good reasons or for simple unawareness. I mentioned deaf people at coffee today and a man looked thoughtful, he said we need a list of what churches in the area have signing at their services so if a deaf person comes we can tell them where they might be better able to participate.
I've been in churches so family oriented when I asked "what is the place or role of the single adult in this church" the answer was "none." That's more honest and helpful than pretending "we welcome all" when activities are divided by demographic category and there are none for "over 30 without kids."
No church can do it all. We each need to know what we can do well and what we can't.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sex offenders register does not necessarily mean actual paedophilia, there are a range of other offences that would place someone on the register.
Knowledge does not necessarily mean in a position to enforce anything either.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I mentioned deaf people at coffee today and a man looked thoughtful, he said we need a list of what churches in the area have signing at their services so if a deaf person comes we can tell them where they might be better able to participate.
[/QB]
And actually the percentage of deaf people who use sign language is really quite small.
Many people who go deaf later life will instead need a decent loop system for their hearing aid, or to be able to lip read any speakers. This will have implications for lighting and positions of readers etc if a church is to be inclusive. So to assume that any deaf person needs directing to a church with sign language is not welcoming either.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
And actually the percentage of deaf people who use sign language is really quite small.
Many people who go deaf later life will instead need a decent loop system for their hearing aid, or to be able to lip read any speakers. This will have implications for lighting and positions of readers etc if a church is to be inclusive. So to assume that any deaf person needs directing to a church with sign language is not welcoming either.
We have one. She does have implants, but reads lips and uses sign language. The worship committee as one of their "let's try something different and see what happens" ideas, thought that having an interpreter might add some interesting visuals and movement to the service. She had been coming to church and sitting in the front to hear better and be able to lip read.
(I have no idea why she didn't use one of our speaker things we have. Our little church is wired for mikes to help those who can't project, and we have these speaker things for those who can't hear well. And large print materials for those who can't see well.)
She did enjoy the interpreter, and the worship committee did ask to keep the interpreter, and we have. She said that it was relaxing to not have to keep lip reading everything. The altar party has learned how to move around the interpreter, and she (the interpreter) has learned how to move around us.
We've had issues come up and have to be addressed. We have removed pews so that wheelchairs can come into the church and had to think about what the best way to do that is. We've discussed the growing amount of ADHD children and how to deal with their needs (which is a work in progress as I watched the ADD teens wander in and out of service today...). We also need to work on how to deal with autistic children in Sunday School. He can apparently deal with church, but Dad is uncomfortable with sending him, but wants to try it, maybe... And we have a new child starting Sunday School who is allergic to almost everything that will have to be dealt with (Ice cream on special Sundays??).
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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rhflan
Shipmate
# 17092
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Posted
When a church uses a building with at least six very large entrances, but *only* unlocks the one that requires you to climb numerous steep steps to get inside, they are obviously excluding those who cannot walk (and probably those who also struggle with walking).
You also exclude all non-regulars when you shut and lock the only door that you keep open 15 minutes before mass is set to start.
(my wife and I experienced this maybe a month ago when attempting to try a different church)
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www.twitter.com/rhflan
Posts: 135 | Registered: May 2012
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
...
In USA how does a homeless person get a social worker, or is that a UK thing? I have a homeless friend (1000 miles away), gets pretty much rejected by churches she walks into asking for help. A social worker who could vouch "she's OK, just one of those decent people who lost it all in bankruptcy" could be a huge help! If any homeless person can get a social worker that would help churches be able to adopt one or two at a time without undue risk.
...
The UK and Australia have a social welfare setup which is supposed to prevent their citizens from being without some financial support. Social workers in Australia act through the government system and private agencies dealing with various problems such as homelessness. I'm not sure how effective they can be but their availability and the welfare setup seem better than nothing.
Mary LA: I'm interested in what you say. I thought the end of apartheid had heralded the end of racialism in the Much Deformed Church, especially after some of its members, like the late, saintly Bayers Naude did so much to change things.
My own recent experience with "welcome" is with an inner city Anglican Franciscan mission, which, sadly, under current leadership seems to have gone badly wrong.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
My previous parish in Ottawa had a notorious, though repentant, paedophile (one, who had made the national papers for his crimes) who started attending after he had served a hefty period of time in prison. He was welcome to communion and direct the choir, but whenever was on the parish campus was shadowed by a member of the staff. He understood the restrictions and always cooperated. He became a valued member of the parish and AFAIK was always treated with love and respect within the parish.
Unfortunately, other more conservative Christians slandered our parish as one that allowed sin to flourish and where anything goes. A few articles on the Stand Firm and David Virtue sites blasted our priest - saying that it proved that once you allowed LGBT people into the church, paedophiles were next. But, to his credit, our priest never backed down.
It was the attitude of other Christians that was the most disappointing.
My current parish despite being in one of New York City's most affluent neighbourhoods, has a couple fairly regular homeless attendees.
[ 24. June 2012, 22:34: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Sex offenders register does not necessarily mean actual paedophilia, there are a range of other offences that would place someone on the register.
Knowledge does not necessarily mean in a position to enforce anything either.
And in some cases, the law has been expanded to the point where it loses its meaning. There have been cases in the U.S. where people have been convicted and put on the Sex Offender Registry for life for sending sexually explicit Instant Messages or texts to a single underage kid who, it was acknowledged by the court, misrepresented their age. Other times it may be a case of 18 year guy caught having consensual sex with a 15 year old high school girlfriend and convicted of statutory rape. Both cases of bad judgment yes, but not much of a threat to society. I'm all for protecting kids from true paedophiles but think Sex Offender Registries are unconstitutional and a perversion of the concept of serving time.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Re Belle Ringer's question about social workers: Rules about social services vary from state to state, but generally speaking if you apply for social services you get assigned an agency social worker who follows the case and supposedly coordinates services. Which doesn't necessarily mean a lot of assistance, since these public employees are notoriously overworked and underpaid (some of us suspect by design, by politicians who underfund social services, then turn around and say, "See? The 'welfare state' doesn't work!" and then try to defund/privatize the entire program). Oftentimes clients won't receive help in a specific area unless they specifically ask for it -- in other words, they have to know how to work the system -- which is often a lot to expect of someone reeling from a sudden, unforeseen life reversal, or someone who is cognitively impaired for one reason or another. (This is also true of people who try to advocate on the behalf of a needy person. When I was trying to get Medicaid for a disabled elderly relative, I found that I never got unsolicited, proactive information from her social worker; I always had to ask the right question, or ask a question the right way, to learn anything useful. It was like the bridge scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, without anything funny about it.
If the individual in question has another life issue other than poverty -- if s/he's an elder or handicapped, for instance -- then s/he might get more individualized care and attention from social workers in agencies that deal primarily with that issue.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I think one perennial inclusivity issue, at least in our church, is meeting young parents' needs while also accomodating the rest of the congregation. At our church the emphasis is often tipped in the young parents' direction (simple wham-bam worship that keeps the kiddos from being bored; group-participation-with-hand-motions kid camp songs every single Sunday). I know I'm going to hell for saying anything negative about children participating in church; but there are some Sundays when I have been so sorrowful or anxious about major issues in my or my partner's or our children's lives...I wanted to experience reflective, thoughtful worship that addressed the concerns of those of us in the middle part of life, and instead I was being asked to clap and gyrate to some silly ditty...one Sunday I found myself in tears, and they were tears of frustration.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Cryptic
Shipmate
# 16917
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Posted
Our parish has an inclusive policy - all are welcome - and I think that we do a pretty good job of it, not perfect, but pretty good. We do have a wide cross-section of people in our congregation. I came from a parish that I left because along with my family, I was made to feel completely unwelcome, I'm in a good position to say they do it well (although there was a parishioner that said to me once that we needed more "PLU" in a certain fellowship group. I questioned what "PLU" was? It meant "People Like Us". ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) I resisted the urge to smack said parishioner in the gob.)
There are some folk that will feel unwelcome because of the type of parish we are, and what we do, that shouldn't really be seen as unwelcoming - just that you can't be all things to all people. It will be seen by some as unwelcoming, but it really isn't.
The sex offender issue is a tricky one. Our diocese has clear and strict guidelines for these situations, basically the parish has to set the rules of engagement in writing, and once the conditions are accepted the offender is welcome to attend church. The parish needs to regularly review and monitor the situation, it cannot be completely confidential, but is handled with discretion on a need-to-know basis to avoid a parish lynch mob. Any deviation from the agreement on the part of the offender can lead to reporting to police, parole officer etc. Some parishes hound these people out, which is a nasty way to handle it as you are effectively telling the offender that they are beyond redemption (or at least, "this parish is not interested in trying to help you find redemption"), and in a more practical sense it just pushes the problem on to another parish.
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Illegitimi non carborundum
Posts: 225 | From: Sydney | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Our bulletin says much as was quoted earlier up the thread, welcoming all.
We seek to share God's unconditional love and acceptance of all people, regardless of age, gender, race, marital or family status, sexual orientation, disability or wealth.
I think we do a reasonable job of this although I'm sure there's always room for improvement. We are an inner city parish, run along fairly similar churchmanship to Cryptic's church which is based in the city. We are in a very mixed parish where there is a very high number who class themselves as artist, according to census returns. Lots of greens, anarchist, goths and fairly left side of politics. And lots of young couples moving up the social ladder as well as families with young children. It's an older area of Sydney with old houses that once were rented cheaply, but no longer. There is also a large number of people with mental illnesses who once would have been cared for but are now in group houses or similar. I've seen people sleeping in our grounds even in winter and there are often such people at the services, particularly midweek Eucharist. Some will come to that, won't come in but welcome a cup of tea and snack. All such are welcomed at the Eucharist and if they ask for prayer at the end, receive prayer treating them and their request with dignity and compassion and the prayer is fresh each week, no matter how many times the request may have been made.
One of the dirtiest, smelliest men I've seen for a while elegantly kissed my hand during the Peace last Christmas Day, although I haven't seen him around since then. We ran for some time a programme offering meals, a place to meet, legal and medical aid, help with housing etc. Unfortunately this no longer operates.
I've had pedophiles in my home at meals and studies in the past. This is undoubtedly one of the hardest areas to show inclusion but I think Cryptic has described it fairly well. I've also regularly had AIDS sufferers at home for meals, especially lunch on Sundays. That was awkward too in terms of who knew what, as some were against it. That was when I attended another church some time ago.
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Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I think one perennial inclusivity issue, at least in our church, is meeting young parents' needs while also accomodating the rest of the congregation...I know I'm going to hell for saying anything negative about children participating in church; but there are some Sundays when ...I wanted to experience reflective, thoughtful worship that addressed the concerns of those of us in the middle part of life, and instead I was being asked to clap and gyrate to some silly ditty...
One of my teeth gritting battles (with a smile!) is the seeming desire of some to center the church on children. I don't see Jesus spending his days focused on children INSTEAD of on adults. Most of his teaching seems (to me) to address adult concerns in adult language.
The focus on kids too often marginalizes the oldsters. The 2010 census says only 21% of households contain married parents with children, only 1/3rd of households of any kind have children, 44% of adults are unmarried, less than half of households have a married couple (most of those with no kids). The average American spends the majority of his or her life unmarried.
This is not the 50s, we need to build church programs around today's demographics, not 1950s demographics. Don't ignore kids, but built strong programs for the vast majority of households - the childfree households - too!
Wish me luck making a dent in church perception.
[ 25. June 2012, 05:08: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
from Sir Pellinore: Mary LA: I'm interested in what you say. I thought the end of apartheid had heralded the end of racialism in the Much Deformed Church, especially after some of its members, like the late, saintly Bayers Naude did so much to change things.
I'm talking about rural small-town churches Sir P -- many of the more urban Dutch Reformed Churches are more integrated,and the old division between the parent (white) church and sister or daughter churches for coloured members has fallen away. Nobody in the local DRC would have heard of Beyers Naude or Allan Boesak.
It sounds crude to describe churches stratified along racial lines but this is still the reality -- that is why mission statements for churches (like Gramps) that announce upfront that they have an inclusive welcoming policy are important, because anyone going into a church for the first time knows that they can attend as an interracial family, ask for prayers for a lesbian partner or talk about suffering with epilepsy without meeting with embarrassment or disapproval.
Most racially inclusive churches here have a high percentage of members with Aids or TB, so communion is taken to them and seating arrangements are made for those who need to sit throughout the services or use wheelchairs. Because of the prevalence of sexual violence, there are men's groups (both church-based and secular) such as the One Man Can Campaign and Men Against Violence workshops held in most churches after the service on Sundays. There are also intensive youth and church-based educational workshops and talks given during services about addiction, since a crude form of crystal meths called 'tik' is widely used out in the countryside.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Years ago my family once attended a church in a rich neighbourhood near Boston where the sidesmen would quietly say to some people, 'We think you might feel more comfortable worshipping elsewhere.'
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
My parish is hardcore conservative in its theology and ltirugical practice but it has always had a very large contingent of recovering alcoholics and folks with special needs/eccentricities. That said, we tend to be fairly accomodating provided you fit. The trouble for folks from outside is what defines who fits - nobody really knows.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Years ago my family once attended a church in a rich neighbourhood near Boston where the sidesmen would quietly say to some people, 'We think you might feel more comfortable worshipping elsewhere.'
Jesus. Christ. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Years ago my family once attended a church in a rich neighbourhood near Boston where the sidesmen would quietly say to some people, 'We think you might feel more comfortable worshipping elsewhere.'
I understand that it's a HORRIBLE story; and yet it may have been a kindness (if he spoke the church feeling and not just his own). I once tried a church where a woman was genuinely caring and helpful and correct when she said that.
What she actually said was "you are welcome but there is nothing here for you." I stayed 6 months, concluded she was right, and left. It was a family church. I wasn't notified of family camping trip, family movie night, family Christmas party, they were for families and only families were notified. The family might invite their church member grandma (who like me didn't get the notice) but I wasn't anyone's grandma so no one invited me. The sole womens group was permanently about marriage (making marriages better).
I actually appreciate the advice "there's nothing here for you" because it signaled to me it wasn't that I was doing something wrong, it just wasn't a church designed to integrate the unfamilied. Their mission was families. I should have listened and saved myself 6 months of being sidelined.
A different group, a parachurch group I regularly enjoyed overseas, I looked up after I moved home. They spoke with me on telephone, cheerfully suggested I bring foreign language versions of some praise choruses for them to enjoy, but the promised info about meeting time and place didn't arrive in the mail. Another phone call and cheerful conversation, but the promised info didn't arrive. A third cheerful conversation -- I finally got the message from yet again no mailed info that where I had lived FGBMFI was half female ("men" is an inclusive word, right?), but at home it was males only ("men" is an exclusive word, right? Where's that language thread!).
I wish they had told me "your kind not wanted here" instead of wasting my time letting me think I was welcome/wanted.
Even if the reasons for rejection are all wrong, as probably in your story, I'd rather be told so I can move on faster instead of slower.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I have to say I'm really impressed with the concerns being expressed on this thread. It sounds like there are some great churches out there doing good work spreading God's message of reconciliation - which has to be more than just a message.
We should be careful, though, to distinguish whether a church is being welcoming/inclusive or not and whether individuals are removing themselves from it. For example, if you welcome the homeless into your church and some long-time members make a bee-line from the door, I don't think it's fair to say that you've become unwelcoming to those older members. Similarly, if you welcome LGBT persons fully, and some people in the congregation walk because of it, I don't think you've become unwelcoming to anyone; some people are unwilling to be a part of the church's welcome to others.
The church I belong to (where I first became an Episcopalian) always impressed me with how it held together a lot of diversity of every kind - economic, political, theological, racial, sexual, nationality, churchmanship, etc. - largely by using the Book of Common Prayer. We prayed by the book and shared Communion together, and that emphasis on the Sacrament took emphasis off having to agree on things. That didn't mean there was no tension, but I think there could have been a lot more.
I'm going to hold off talking about where I work, since people here know who I am and where I work. Suffice it to say I think we do a really good job of accommodating all kinds of needs. The one I'll highlight, since it's been raised on this thread, is children. We have Godly Play downstairs during the Liturgy of the Word (you know, the part that bores the kids), and then during the offertory, the children come up to join us. They actually lead the procession of the gifts to the altar and then take their places with their families. I think it's important for the kids to get a feel for the "grown-up" worship rather than having the worship service played to the kids. Don't kids naturally want to become "grown-ups"?
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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