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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: To tattoo...or not to tattoo?
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Midlands Chaucer
Apprentice
# 8986
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Posted
Just interested in your thoughts...perhaps this topic has been raised/discussed before?
I have come across christian websites of a more conservative, even possibly fundamentalist character, which condemn tattoos and the practice of tattooing. The reason given is informed by their interpretation of the principle of 'sola scriptura'; ie, the prohibition mentioned in the OT book of Leviticus.
In response to this:
1.) This prohibition is nowhere repeated in any book of the New Testament.
2.) The OT prohibition formed part of the Jewish ceremonial law. Its raison d'etre was the cultural and religious meanings associated with tattooing in the social and historcial context of the nations surrounding the Jewish people. Tattooing, at this time, was associated with false worship and idolatry, and the prohibition emphasised that the Hebrews were a separate people, specially consecrated to God.
3.) The prohibition had specific application to a specific people, ie, the Hebrew nation under the leadership of Moses. It was an element of the Old Covenant.
4.) As christians live under the terms of the New Covenant, salient aspects of the Jewish ceremonial law do not apply. Just as circumcision is not obligatory for a christian believer, neither is a prohibiiton against tattooing binding upon a christian.
5.) Christianity focuses not just on behaviour and actions but on the motivations for action. If a person gets tattoos with a wrong motive, ie, they have tattoos of anti-christian symbols, then it would be wrong. On the other hand, a christian may get a tattoo of a christian symbol, ie, a cross, which may witness to their faith.
6.) In the context of the Hebrew nation under Moses, a nation which was on the move out of Egypt, tattooing was a dangerous and unhygienic practice. People getting tattooed were at risk of getting diseases. This contrasts with the scenario in 21st Century UK today, where reputable tattoo shops are registered with the environmental health authority and tattooing is undertaken under sanitary and sterlised conditions.
Tattoos cannot be condemned, or prohibited, upon the basis of an isolated bible text (ie, Leviticus), which was based on a provisional and limited cultural and religious context, anyway. The only prohibition would be against any practice involving mutilation of the body, and whilst this would apply to the the practice of scarification, it does not apply to tattooing.
Tattoos seem to be a matter of personal taste. Not everyone wants the full-sleeve David Beckham style tattoos. But the Bible does not legislate on matters of taste. And we may deem it to be an aspect of human freedom that God allows people to have 'bad taste', however 'bad taste' may be defined!
Posts: 47 | From: Stratford-upon-Avon | Registered: Jan 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I think it was discussed recently. The only religious issue I see is vanity (and it has plenty of company there). But in practical terms, probably not a good idea.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Screw the party-poopers who are cafeteria purity law abiders. When they live as strictly as Orthodox Jews, I'll start to take them seriously. My worry is that thirty years down the line, there will be a bunch of people sporting nasty, fuzzy blobs on various parts of their bodies. I've seen some thirty year old tattoos and they're often not pretty. They offend my own aesthetic purity laws, in fact. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
But to each their own. I love many fresh designs, especially ones that take into account how they fit in with the contours of the body. And I can see that tattooing a design to symbolize something of significance in one's life, including the religious, could be very meaningful.
I only hope they won't turn into ugly blobs. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Us older wrinkling up people probably should be careful. And please avoid those small-of-the-back people are calling "tramp stamps" and "pimp tags", barbed wire design around an arm, and Chinese characters. You're not expressing individuality with any of these, you're turning into a clone. I think God hates clones. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
For reasons of personal taste I only get medically necessary tattoos and piercings. However the thread did make me contemplate the idea of that would be designed to be best seen a decade or two later.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
I have the impression that some people like to have rules to live by. They see the Bible as The Book of Rules* for justifying their own opinions and for some to try and control others. Tattoos are just one example of this.
I would guess that
a) this perspective is over-represented in Christian websites compared to Christianity in general, and
b) a search on "Christianity and tattoos" is going to bring up those websites. It is harder to search for "Christian websites that do not find tattoos an important issue".
* apologies to Jethro Tull - Wind Up
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
For reasons of personal taste I only get medically necessary tattoos and piercings.
Genuinely intrigued... what would these be?
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
As one of the Ship's probably more vocal gays, I would note, somewhat mischievously, that we all have bits of Leviticus we wish weren't there. And oddly enough, we all employ similar methods to the OP in order to reason them away.
Apart from that, I would also join with others who've noted the aesthetic concerns that come with ageing. Gravity is the cruellest force of nature.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
I don't know about medical piercings, but medical tattoos are used to mark the coordinates that assist radiographers in focusing on the precise area to be irradiated.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
Medical tattoos can also be like a "diabetic" bracelet, but inked instead of a piece of jewelry.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
As to medical piercings: sometimes a patient needs a gastric feeding tube or a permanent site for blood work such as plasmapheresis. I suppose a colostomy might also fit the description, although that would (we hope) be more temporary.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Why might you want a tattoo? What's the reason?
If it's to make a statement it's one thing, if it's to fit in - it's another.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
those small-of-the-back people are calling "tramp stamps" and "pimp tags"
In German they are called "arse antlers" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Mine were carefully chosen. The first is a celtic beast, for my celtic ancestors; the second is a phoenix in flames, with the word 'Resurrexit' to mark a particular Easter one year; the third is a messianic symbol (star & fish) with the words 'Jesus the Messiah' in Aramaic.
All were done after a lot of pondering on my part, and only the third one, on my forearm, is generally visible.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
Now there's an interesting thought. Do the same rules that forbid a Christian from displaying a cross as a piece of jewellery also forbid them from displaying an overtly Christian tattoo?
(this is purely of academic interest to me, since my employer doesn't care what jewellery I wear and I am not proposing ever to have a tattoo)
Mrs. S, ink-free apart from where the ballpoint leaked
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
In parts of Egypt, Coptic children are tattooed with a cross on their forehead out of a fear of forcible conversion and child abduction for that purpose.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
My understanding is that the Levitical proscription against tattoos has its roots not only in Hebrew squeamishness about "difference," about deviating from what was perceived as a normal state of being, but also as a reaction to tattoos used in neighboring cultures' religious cults and in the practice of slavery. In other words, free people shouldn't want to look like slaves stamped or pierced with some symbol of ownership; and God's set-apart people shouldn't want to look like tattooed devotees of the neighbors' pagan deities.
Since we're living in a different cultural context, those assumptions don't hold true for us. I've met very few Christians who think God will set them in the naughty chair for getting tattoos (hell, I know more than one pastor with serious tats), and the ones I have met are either wooden literalists or people who just don't like tattoos and use Scripture selectively to justify that prejudice.
(For the record, I am tatless, so I have no dog in this fight.)
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
My understanding is that the Levitical proscription against tattoos has its roots not only in Hebrew squeamishness about "difference," about deviating from what was perceived as a normal state of being, but also as a reaction to tattoos used in neighboring cultures' religious cults and in the practice of slavery. In other words, free people shouldn't want to look like slaves stamped or pierced with some symbol of ownership; and God's set-apart people shouldn't want to look like tattooed devotees of the neighbors' pagan deities.
Since we're living in a different cultural context, those assumptions don't hold true for us.
Right -- engraving gang signs on your body is a sign of freedom and Godliness now...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ancilla
Shipmate
# 11037
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Posted
I don’t think you can oppose tattoos on OT grounds without opening up the whole can of worms about circumcision etc. But I do think there’s a general debate to be had about how we improve / modify / customise our own bodies – from plastic surgery to hairstyles.
If our bodies belong to God, are tattoos a bit like graffiti, trying to stamp our own mark on something which doesn’t really belong to us? Or is it no different from how we express ourselves in clothing?
As AtheA says, Christians in some parts of N Africa have tattooed crosses (though I’ve only seen it on wrists - faces would be even more unhideable) so that they can’t deny their faith even under persecution. I think that’s a wonderful and brave thing. Maybe Christian tattoos like Pine Marten’s fall more into that category, though hopefully she’ll never be persecuted for it!
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formerly Wannabe Heretic
Vocational musings
Posts: 424 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
My understanding is that the Levitical proscription against tattoos has its roots not only in Hebrew squeamishness about "difference," about deviating from what was perceived as a normal state of being, but also as a reaction to tattoos used in neighboring cultures' religious cults and in the practice of slavery. In other words, free people shouldn't want to look like slaves stamped or pierced with some symbol of ownership; and God's set-apart people shouldn't want to look like tattooed devotees of the neighbors' pagan deities.
Since we're living in a different cultural context, those assumptions don't hold true for us.
Right -- engraving gang signs on your body is a sign of freedom and Godliness now...
--Tom Clune
Yeah, right, and the only tattoos you see fit to take note of are "gang sign" tatts. What a contrarian bit of wisdom.
And did LutheranChic say that any or all tatts were signs of "freedom and Godliness"? Not that I noticed. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
My understanding is that the Levitical proscription against tattoos has its roots not only in Hebrew squeamishness about "difference," about deviating from what was perceived as a normal state of being, but also as a reaction to tattoos used in neighboring cultures' religious cults and in the practice of slavery. In other words, free people shouldn't want to look like slaves stamped or pierced with some symbol of ownership; and God's set-apart people shouldn't want to look like tattooed devotees of the neighbors' pagan deities.
Since we're living in a different cultural context, those assumptions don't hold true for us.
Right -- engraving gang signs on your body is a sign of freedom and Godliness now...
--Tom Clune
Yeah, right, and the only tattoos you see fit to take note of are "gang sign" tatts. What a contrarian bit of wisdom.
And did LutheranChic say that any or all tatts were signs of "freedom and Godliness"? Not that I noticed.
And did LC say that any or all tatts in ancient times were signs of religious cults and slavery? Get a grip.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
You first. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
For reasons of personal taste I only get medically necessary tattoos and piercings.
Genuinely intrigued... what would these be?
So you think you're tough?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As one of the Ship's probably more vocal gays, I would note, somewhat mischievously, that we all have bits of Leviticus we wish weren't there. And oddly enough, we all employ similar methods to the OP in order to reason them away.
Just be glad you're not as confused as this guy.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
For reasons of personal taste I only get medically necessary tattoos and piercings.
Genuinely intrigued... what would these be?
I have some cross hairs on my chest as a Radiation target. I was briefly tempted to ask them to do some proper printing registration marks. I was told they're tattooed so they know the local exposure if they have to come back 20 years later for more.
Piercings I've had were for various ports that spliced into veins and arteries for various injections and extractions. They're all out now.
I've no urge to have more.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Josephine has a friend who has a degenerative bone disease on one side of her face. She has lip color tattooed in that area to make her mouth look more symmetrical.
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Us older wrinkling up people probably should be careful. And please avoid those small-of-the-back people are calling "tramp stamps" and "pimp tags", barbed wire design around an arm, and Chinese characters. You're not expressing individuality with any of these, you're turning into a clone. I think God hates clones.
I'm not sure how in our present culture anybody can possibly think they're "expressing individuality" by getting a tattoo. It's like expressing individuality by buying Nikes, because no two people walk to exactly the same places wearing them.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Us older wrinkling up people probably should be careful. And please avoid those small-of-the-back people are calling "tramp stamps" and "pimp tags", barbed wire design around an arm, and Chinese characters. You're not expressing individuality with any of these, you're turning into a clone. I think God hates clones.
Yes, and especially RESEARCH your Chinese/Japanese/Swedish/Whatever language characters you get to make sure they actually mean something and not "I am a shining chair leg" or something equally ridiculous. I've heard tell of this actually happening... idiots who just get some foreign language characters tattooed on their skin, not having any idea what they mean. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
Yes, and especially RESEARCH your Chinese/Japanese/Swedish/Whatever language characters you get to make sure they actually mean something and not "I am a shining chair leg" or something equally ridiculous. I've heard tell of this actually happening... idiots who just get some foreign language characters tattooed on their skin, not having any idea what they mean.
I heard a story about a woman who was knitting herself a sweater and decided she wanted to put some kind of design on it. She saw some Chinese characters on a restaurant menu. She thought they looked pretty, so she put them on her sweater. A Chinese man who saw her laughed so hard he could barely stand up. The characters meant, "This dish is especially cheap and tasty."
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We've been given Asian Western-inspired clothing that has the same problem in reverse. Slogans like "Eat the pink leprechaun" or whatever.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You also want to pick a tattoo artist who can spell.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Some years back there was a chap up north who self tattooed the word "fuck' on his forehead. Unfortunately he got it wrong as he used a mirror to copy the letters from.
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
When I got my 'Jesus the Messiah' done in Aramaic, I checked, checked, checked and then checked the spelling again to have it absolutely right.
But don't tattooists stencil the design on first, so that you can see it and approve, getting it moved or altered if necessary? My tattooists always did that. So if something is misspelled it's the fault of the tattoo-ee as much as the artist.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
But don't tattooists stencil the design on first, so that you can see it and approve, getting it moved or altered if necessary? My tattooists always did that. So if something is misspelled it's the fault of the tattoo-ee as much as the artist.
The licensed, ethical ones tend to do that, unless they are specifically instructed to 'freehand'.
Or so I'm told, as I'm one of the few people I know in Portland who don't have a tattoo. I couldn't decide on one when I was particularly young and stupid. Then I was contemplating a move to Japan to live and work where tattoos are still universally seen as something only criminals had. And even if it was in an inconspicuous spot, certain other Japanese traditions mean I would be nekkid with other folks from time to time.
Now that I'm older and stupider, I think I've decided what I would like to have inked, and where. I just keep finding other things to spend my money on, like dental work and down payments.
(Also, I should mention my mother has radiology targeting spots, and one of them is shaped like Mickey Mouse, per her request.)
[ 01. August 2012, 00:56: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
When I got my 'Jesus the Messiah' done in Aramaic, I checked, checked, checked and then checked the spelling again to have it absolutely right.
A friend's daughter came back from Prague with a tattoo in the 'girl spot'. She had wanted the words "Carpe Diem" written across her lumbar spine or thereabouts. Anyway, the tattoo artist was Czech and they didn't share much in the way of a common language. Since she couldn't see the results, she made the mistake of asking her dad if it had been spelled right.
Without missing a beat, he said, "Crappy Dime? What's that supposed to mean?"
It was his finest hour.
[ 01. August 2012, 02:33: Message edited by: Choirboy ]
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I am kinda ambivalent about the "girl spot" at the base of the spine, because I think a lot of young women aren't being properly informed about its biggest downside.
A woman with a tattoo in that spot can't have an epidural if she has a baby later (they won't inject into it). If you know about this and do it anyway, that's one thing. But I get the impression a lot of young women don't know.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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stevemack
Apprentice
# 17299
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Posted
These are the most important rule regarding to Christian websites. There are many prohibitions for tattoos and there are many interpretations also from the medical point of view for tattoos.
__________
miami tattoo supplies
Posts: 1 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Welcome, stevemack. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Seeing from your sig that this is an area of interest to you, what feedback have you gotten, both pro and con on the subject from Christians?
I'll be interested to see if you post on any other threads.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Who cares if tattoos are or are not unChristian? The really important thing to remember is that wearers must expect ridicule from speakers at Republican conventions. According to a former governer of Minnesota who addressed the Tampa crowd, getting a tattoo is Democrat. See, they think that it's really cool at first, but the more time passes, the uglier it becomes until one has to ask, "WHAT were they THINKING?"
I always associated tattoos with motorcycles and tough off-road vehicles waving confederate flags, driven by staunch "conservatives" underneath their countercultural veneer. But the speaker would never be so unpolitic as to alienate a segment of The Base, would he? Though I've found them a turn off, if the Republicans renounce them-- like Fagin, "I'm reviewin the situation."
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Don't.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
I'm not sure any website claiming Christians can't have a tattoo is Christian.
Its legalism. Something St Paul condemned. It goes in my book as heresy. I wonder what the same 'Christians' think about other bits of the law, like underwear made of mixed fabric or polygamy ?
Some people just love to tell others how to live their lives and order them about. I get loads of them on facebook wanting to be my 'friend' then launching into their 'ministry' of hatred against anyone who doesn't live up to their moral standard where they pick a bit of the law they can bash others with. Most of them don't have the faintest idea of what the whole Mosaic law actually demands.
I'm not that convinced God thinks law is a good idea. He didn't bother with it at all for thousands of years, and then only gave it to a small group of people. That was followed by a once and for all sacrifice to remove the penalty of sin for those who repented. Disappointing news I'm sure for the legalists out there who get a kick out of ordering others around. The Pharisees aren't dead, they just joined the church.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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