quote:

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Originally posted by enpart:
Hi,
I’ve spent the last few weeks reading through The Way Ahead and the recently released Strategy for Growth, both of which tell us that if we don’t do something, and don’t do it quickly, the CinW will wither away and expire.

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I'm pretty sceptical of the 'look busy, Jesus is coming!' approach. Even more, of running round like headless chickens wondering what exactly to do. Surely the only thing we (CinW, CofE, whoever) need to do is to be faithful in prayer and pastoral care. In other words, what we are already (or should have been) doing.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Only recently we had some observations here aboard Ship that the Church in Wales is doing better in rural areas than the non-conformists are ... which must mean that the state of rural non-conformity in Wales must be even more desperate ...

I can't speak for rural Wales but I have noticed that in parts of rural Cheshire some village churches are doing quite well with refugees from town and suburban parishes where they've either moved the candles or introduced drum'n'bass ...

West Wales has a more scattered population so I don't see that as a solution ...
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Here's the link for those who may be interested

Review

Of course the whole thing has to be discussed by the Governing Body next month........
 

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Posted by enpart (# 17272) on :
 
I’m also not entirely convinced that closing churches helps in any way, but it does appear to be an integral part of the re-structuring – with the current number of churches there are not enough ministers to go around. The stress on ‘viability’ makes me wonder whether this is structural shrinkage designed chiefly to keep in step with financial shrinkage.

We’re not quite at the headless chicken stage yet – we have managed to introduce some gradual ‘innovations’ over the past year which raised interest and occasionally even attendance! We are certainly faithful in prayer, but pastoral care hasn’t been easy without a vicar for two years.

Chapel attendance seems to be steadily declining in our local area (which is very rural)
The Strategy proposals seem to be setting up a model of concentrating effort in one or two large churches in rural towns, and letting the outlying churches make their own decisions about closures or changes before they slip into unrecoverable debt – every church in our group of six, except one, has to use its reserves to meet the quota payment so it is only a matter of time before they run out – I think this may be what is behind ‘The Church in Wales cannot go on doing the same things in the same way; some things need to change and we are open to – and indeed encourage – that possibility’

I like the thought of just staying as we are and soaking up refugees but I don’t think it would happen – we are just too far away from the nearest towns, and there are a lot of other churches in between.

The Governing Body may tinker with it but most seem to think that it will be approved - they rejected the last one about ten years ago
 

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Posted by enpart (# 17272) on :
 
Thank you for posting the link Stephen

Extract from the review…..
‘The Church in Wales rightly has the Eucharist at the heart of its worshipping life. However, it is widely recognised that for the majority of people today Christianity has become a foreign language and what goes on in church strikes them as strange, even alien. ……….They should be able to offer a variety of styles of Christian community and worship. We do not assume that all those outside the church would prefer alternative forms of worship. On the contrary, we know that some young people in fact prefer more traditional styles. Nevertheless there is another large and significant culture outside the church at the moment for whom present church services mean almost nothing.’

That’s quite a call to arms for a small place of worship that has been holding traditional services for well over a thousand years (the church was founded in 490AD, the present building is the third on the site) It may be good strategy, but it 's a bit thin, and contradictory, on direction or practical application.

The Strategy document describes services as ‘book-bound’
One elderly member of the church asked me ‘What does it mean book-bound….do they mean the Bible?’
 

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Posted by tomsk (# 15370) on :
 
I gather that when the Church of Wales was disestablished, all pre-1662 endowments where confiscated. Is this making the church run out of money more quickly now?

It sounds like a dismantling of the parish system (I think it says that group ministries aren't working). As you say, enpart, people are very attached to their own church and won't readily go to another one. However, if you keep things as they are, won't the system collapse and there be nothing left for future generations. It sounds so difficult for churches like yours to pay for stipendiary clergy


 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
enpart

Closure may be inevitable for some churches, but experience shows that the number of churchgoers decreases overall when that happens. It's better if you can arrange for at least part of the building to remain in use as a church. The other day I walked past an inner city Anglican church, half of which had been converted into an NHS property. I know of another church that has knocked down an old extension and has built a new one that's used as an annex to the school across the road. Yet another has turned itself into a two storey property, with shops and a tiny chapel below, and church above. All traditional CofE buildings. Find out what your area needs and see if any funding is available to help you convert your church. There are church consultants who help Anglicans with this kind of thing.

In terms of the traditionalist v. evangelical thing, it always saddens me that church leaders find it so difficult to offer a vision that inspires everyone since, as you know, without a vision, the people perish. A divided house will fall.

But since the evangelicals are supposedly happier with change, I suppose you could try closing down their churches and send them to share a building with the traditionalists! At any rate, if it's harder to lose an evangelical than a traditionalist (which seems to be the case) then perhaps your efforts should be geared towards addressing the concerns of traditionalists rather than evangeilcals.

[ 17. August 2012, 22:45: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by enpart (# 17272) on :
 
It’s difficult to say if the dis-endowment is still having an effect 100 years later. A large amount of land was given to the University of Wales and the local authorities – our own church lost 120 acres of glebe-land - ironically land that helped to support the church and its Rector pre-disestablishment via tithes and other income.

The Representative Body, in whom all property was vested following disestablishment, has general funds of £513m (2010) and a net income of around £18m – the DBFs raise roughly a similar figure from ministry share.
The problem seems to stem from deficits on investments caused by the recession combined with an increase in retirees and a lack of new trainees, decreasing numbers of churchgoers, and increasing costs of maintenance of both property and ministry.

Personally I think the strategy is as good as the circumstances can allow – However, at grass-roots level the general consensus locally seems to be that we are being given a new strategy, and then being told to go and work out how to implement it…..a challenge that suits some, but not others – hence the mixed reactions of the ‘traditionalists’ who are naturally and perhaps rightly resistant to changes, and the over-zealous who are already talking about bringing in the kind of drum’n bass vibe that Gamaliel referred to earlier.

I’m very glad you said that that Svitlana, as already it is the traditionalists who are feeling the most upset by the proposed changes – I think the PCCs first job is to find a consensus of opinion and then seek a vision that will be seen as ‘viable’ in terms of any new Ministry team strategy, all without causing anyone to feel so upset that they would leave.

Our church is unfortunately (I never thought I would ever use that word in this context) an architectural gem that is listed up to the hilt, which means making any major physical changes to it almost impossible – it would be the ultimate irony if we had to close the church because the only thing it could be used for was a church!
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
The thing is - although this is very unscientific - my own impression is that here in Swansea at any rate, lay people tend to be -Low.....Much of the area was affected by the Parish Communion and that seems to the prevailing culture where the Eucharist is the main form of worship either in its traditional or modern form.That doesn't mean however that it's an A/C area - I would be inclined to definitely not ..... OTOH I get the feeling - no more than that - that there has been in increase in the clergy who are either Evangelicals or tend to that form of Anglicanism.......so you have the problem of where to put them
The other thing is - if you start closing churches it results in a highly charged response not just from the churchgoers but also from the community. The Church in Wales is disestablished but it certainly doesn't act it and people expect the church to be there if it's only there for them to stay away from...... Much of the opposition comes from people in the parish who don't go to church and quite often they're capable of organised opposition
You may have seen or come across the situation in Maerdy where one of the churches closed recently ........there were hopes of a deal with the authorities but with the review the people there seem to have given up hope.
If you have an accelerated programme of closures there are going to be more Maerdys. So far the C-i-W is fortunate to have a good relationship with the local press and TV - in fact I'm frequently amazed at how easy a ride bishops get here compared with politicians
In the Central Swansea benefice two churches have closed.In one case it had about 10 worshippers and they felt they couldn't carry on. The building was not closed, being used by the Cyrenians and also on occasion I think by the Coptic Church. The congregation then went to a neighbouring church within the benefice.On another occasion a different church building was closed and this was quite emotional as the church really was closed. However the worshippers decamped to the same neighbouring church
Tomsk - yes possibly, I don't know - but - there is a perception that the Church is rich and has got plenty of money but the fact is we did lose out at disestablishment....so I think Svitlana is by and large correct - if you have to close the church but the building is used that seems to cause at lot less of a hostile response
The other thing you have to remember is that Wales can be pretty tribal (!)and people have an attachment to the church they go to - the same is true of the chapels to be fair
Finally what model should the Church adopt? Should it be a business in which case you'll want to maximise your profits and if that means closing some churches to concentrate on larger ones, then tough
Or should it be more like a co-operative or public service where you only close if you really have to ; you might be of the opinion that richer churches should subsidise poorer ones - although even here you might still have to close eventually; and also one might want to bear in mind that some of these rural or former industrial areas have had in the past various services taken from them. The bank has closed, then the post office, then the library .......and then the church.Transport in Wales is not good and in many cases non-existent on a Sunday. I live on a good bus route - every 15 minutes during the day - in the evening it goes down to hourly. On Sunday there's a 30 minute service - the first bus is at 9.25 the last is at 18.20 - in other words, courtesy of First no evening service at all, and this in a city of 180000
So the report I think raises a lot of questions for which I have no answers.......
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
There was a church near where I live, two in fact, who were grouped as part of a pastoral charge. Their buildings were getting very old and the maintenance was becoming very expensive. They decided to sell both buildings and build a new church.

So they sold. The building proceeds remained in trust.

Then they moved into a local elementary school as an interim arrangement. They said they needed to find five other users for a new building, a daycare, adult education, other community groups. They didn't find enough. But they didn't want to build a new building anyway. They like the freedom of just renting. They use their building trust fund to sponsor charitable works. They aren't consumed by their expenses anymore. They'll never have their own building again.

Sometimes we have to think outside the box.
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Stephen:
The thing is - although this is very unscientific - my own impression is that here in Swansea at any rate, lay people tend to be -Low.....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Just as strategic planning can cut across what people really want, so can the lack of it create impossible dilemmas. I'm thinking of an inner-city area with this problem: three churches, within less than five minutes walk of each other. One, traditionally evangelical now carving out a new role as a self-styled 'progressive, inclusive' church; one, traditionally anglo-catholic, with a tiny congregation but a deeply appreciated ministry of 'presence' in a multi-ethnic (and largely muslim) community; and one, closed for many years and now being restored and re-opened as a consciously evangelical/charismatic preaching centre aimed at young professionals. Any sensible strategy would have combined the three approaches into one building. But the freehold, clerical rivalry and no doubt long historical memories combined to frustrate this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Just as strategic planning can cut across what people really want, so can the lack of it create impossible dilemmas. I'm thinking of an inner-city area with this problem: three churches, within less than five minutes walk of each other. One, traditionally evangelical now carving out a new role as a self-styled 'progressive, inclusive' church; one, traditionally anglo-catholic, with a tiny congregation but a deeply appreciated ministry of 'presence' in a multi-ethnic (and largely muslim) community; and one, closed for many years and now being restored and re-opened as a consciously evangelical/charismatic preaching centre aimed at young professionals. Any sensible strategy would have combined the three approaches into one building. But the freehold, clerical rivalry and no doubt long historical memories combined to frustrate this.

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But it sounds to me as if each of these churches has developed a specific ministry to the area, and is doing its thing quite well.

There would be a problem if they were all obviously failing, but they seem to have a vision.
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
As a Methodist, my first response was "Oh! They're creating circuits..."

Honestly, I think the only way forward in the rural areas (and many of the suburban and urban ones) will be that we work ecumenically. But many of us (me included) will need to get over ourselves a bit for that to happen. I was a bit disappointed to see that the ecumenical dimension in the report was so minimal.

[ 18. August 2012, 13:18: Message edited by: seasick ]
 

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Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Except that tiny congregations have to cope with budgets beyond their capacity, when sharing a building would make much more sense.

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If th4e budgets be beyond their capacity, and I do not know if this be the case with these three congregations, then they would need to look at their situations. Amalgamation or building-sharing might be among them but, depending on the geography of the place, might not be.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Ender's Shadow

Yes, that's what some churches do. But when they do that, they see themselves as separate congregations, don't they? In the circles I've mixed in, that seems to be frowned on. Before my Methodist church closed we considered sharing a building with another church in the area, but our minister seemed to think it was improper for two churches to be meeting separately in the same church at the same time. The Anglicans were (and are) sharing a building with the URC but worshipping separately, and this seemed to be viewed as a cause for regret. At the moment, they're working towards complete union, with the implication that this is the ideal.

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quote:

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empart:
As for selling it and becoming nomadic, lovely idea but just one snag – all church buildings in Wales are owned by the Representative Body, not the people who use, run, maintain, and worship in them. If it was sold we wouldn’t get the proceeds.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
There is a belief hard coded into denominational leaders that there is no justification for separate styles of worship / patterns of belief because 'we are all Christians'. In doing so they reject the evidence of the dynamism of separate traditions, and actually attempt to impose a unity that even Rome doesn't; Rome after all accepts the role of the uniate churches in the same area etc. The problem of course is that such diversity may also become a justification for maintaining traditions that are actually unhelpful; unfortunately it is unusual to see such traditions confronted directly - instead things are left to run their course.

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quote:

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Originally posted by enpart:
On the mixed services topic - walking out of church today my eye was caught by the 'This is a Covenanted Church' poster that has been there (largely ignored) for years. We have a good relationship with our local Methodist chapel and often join together in events ,fund-raising activities, concerts etc - but we have never shared services together.....now I'm wondering if sharing a few special services occasionally might help us both out....somehow working together as covenanted churches in a way that helps us both to keep our own buildings running, and our own identities (?)

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@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Garasu:
Originally posted by Enders Shadow:

quote:

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@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...

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Hey! No horse in the Methodist race, but is there any evidence that they're less effective at attracting converts than you lot?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Garasu:
Originally posted by Enders Shadow:

quote:

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@Seasick: The idea of the CofE moving to something similar to the Methodist circuit system fills me with horror; AFAICS the effect of this is to ensure a levelling down of the expectations of congregations, a wide variety of theologies expressed from the pulpit and a total lack of dynamism, because noone can be certain about what the next service in their church will be like. Would you want to risk taking a non-Christian to a service when you really have no idea what's going to be said from the pulpit? That that test gives the wrong answer demolishes any attraction to 'circuits'...

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Hey! No horse in the Methodist race, but is there any evidence that they're less effective at attracting converts than you lot?

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quote:

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Originally posted by enpart:
[snip] We have given nearly £10,000 in ministry share during that period.

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quote:

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We are in a grouped benefice already but if the proposals are implemented we will become one of 20 -25 churches in a ‘Ministry Area’ who will share 3 stipendiary ministers and an assortment of NSMs and Lay readers.

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Well if you all give £10k a year, that totals £200k (if 20 churches), so 4 times the parish share giving of my (CofE) church which has a single minister. Perhaps the diocese is being a bit stingy by only giving three, but there are plenty of churches in my CofE diocese that have larger parish shares and a single minister. (One local, slightly larger church gives £70k Parish Share for a single minister)

Tim
 

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Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :
 
There is another way to approach this, of course, which can be alluded to with the question - Do we know how far Orthodox Christians in the UK travel each Sunday to be present at the Liturgy? It's often a very, very long way.

All very well you say, but how do they show forth the reality of the Risen Lord in their local community? To tell you the truth, I don't know. But it won't be with needlework displays and flower festivals. Perhaps it will be seen in their obvious commitment to the Christian faith - there is no more powerful mission tool for encouraging discipleship than to glimpse a disciple.
 

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Posted by enpart (# 17272) on :
 
Tim – wow, there are only five churches in the whole of our Diocese that give over 100k in ministry share, and they are in major towns………maybe the dis-endowment of the CinW is still having an effect
 

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Posted by enpart (# 17272) on :
 
Zacchaeus – we are taking steps to develop the tourist/historic church angle a bit although we’re not quite at the stage yet where the door can be left open at all times.
Open days have worked well and brought in visitors, some of whom have returned and attended a few services.

A nearby church had a bad experience which has made a lot of people in our church very wary of the open door policy – they had a bunch of teenage girls rampage through the church and broke a lot of things so now their door is locked unless anyone is in the church to keep an eye on things.
Personally I would like to take the chance but some of the senior members are absolutely dead against it at the moment – we may get there eventually.

I’m trying to get permission from the council to put a new bigger sign up on the main road….our old one is very pretty, but doesn’t say much except ‘There’s a church at the end of this lane’…..given the current sense of crisis I think we need a bit more than that

 

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Posted by tomsk (# 15370) on :
 
enpart said: 'Tim – wow, there are only five churches in the whole of our Diocese that give over 100k in ministry share, and they are in major towns………maybe the dis-endowment of the CinW is still having an effect '

I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals £50K. If a group of churches pay £5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by tomsk:

I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals £50K. If a group of churches pay £5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

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Originally posted by tomsk:

I think annual the cost of a clergyman totals £50K. If a group of churches pay £5K annual parish share, it would take ten of them to fund a priest, so spreading 3 over 25 churches sounds about right. That would obviously be a bit thinly spread, so there's a pressing need to develop more lay ministry. Trouble is, I guess raising the parish share and looking after the building is a burden already.

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Unfortunately, studies show that a priest becomes less effective the more churches s/he has to look after. I think it would require far more than 'developing lay ministry' to turn this into something positive. It would require a whole new theology of church, not just getting lay people to take on a few more jobs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ramarius:
From Chambers' research I think we can learn that for communities which have suffered tremendous upheavals, before they address the question "is the message true?" they must first have a positive answer to the question "does the messenger care?"

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Cute sociology, naff theology; this is the route that has led the church to establish any number of social work agencies and never actually preach the gospel. There is no evidence that the early church used it as a model*: the pattern we see there is people just 'gossiping the gospel' because their relationship with God is so central to their lives. To be honest, if a church attendance falls because of sociological factors, then that's overwhelming evidence that that church was mainly a social club... OK so I'm overstating the case for effect, but I think there's some validity there; for me, given that being a Christian is about one's own relationship with God and church attendance falls out of that, if their attendance is so loosely rooted, then there probably wasn't any reality to their faith.

* The fatuous suggestion that they healed so we should build hospitals should be disdained for the bad joke that it is.
 

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Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :
 
@Enders Shadow. Good challenge. In terms of the impact of social change on church attendance - maybe I need to clarify this. What you had in Port Talbot (for example) was a community knit together by a number of interweaves strands. The unifying effect of working in the same industry over a number of generations was a very strong strand here. Closing the steel works led to large numbers of people leaving the area which changed the nature of the community by breaking up longstanding relationships and families. Perhaps what I needed to draw out more clearly was the multiplicity of small congregations that characterised the church scene. Take a few strong families away and the congregation starts to become less viable.

On the social impact vis a vis Gospel preaching you're right there's a risk that the church ends up looking no different from any number of other social regeneration schemes. On the other hand, so long as the Gospel continues to be preached, I'd say that community regeneration is part and parcel of the transformational message of the kingdom. Long term unemployment has debilitating effects on personal motivation, health, levels of crime, and ambition and aspiration. Because the Gospel provides a cosmic vision if hope, it's the most powerful message anywhere to lift a community out of this cycle of introversion and despair.

I've drawn out Chambers' interests as a sociologist since that's where he's coming from. But I'm also left with the impression that the churches he mentions are finding expression of their evangelical witness rather than substituting community service for Gospel witness.

Any views from the Valleys welcome

[ 25. August 2012, 10:58: Message edited by: Ramarius ]
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
I've read Paul Chambers and found him interesting. I'm not Welsh, but I have studied in South Wales, and the number of abandoned churches on one of the main roads in the town where I lived was really surprising.

As for bringing sociological reflections to bear on religious belief and practice, I think it's important, because the gospel isn't preached or lived in a vacuum. Faith shouldn't be divorced from the other pressing social issues in people's lives. When that happens, it's only a matter of time before people begin to treat it as something fairly irrelevant. Yes, it may be the case that many people's faith is weak - maybe they're going to church because that's the done thing for respectable people in their culture - but theoretically, church is an environment where people can be spiritually fed. Spiritually weak people and social climbers need to feed their souls, just like anyone else!

It's also true that many people are believers without going to church. There may be sociological reasons why church is unappealing to them, even if they want to follow Jesus. Churches need to be aware of this.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Here's a view from the Valleys, or at least someone who grew up in a Valley.

Ender's Shadow is talking bollocks again.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
The 'social gospel' and so on has been blamed for the decline of Christianity and church/chapel going in the Welsh Valleys.

I would say that the effects of the Welsh Revival of 1904/05 cut both ways - provoking something of a reaction against a kind of other-worldly pietism. I grew up in the Valleys and there were plenty of people around whose forebears had been 'put-off' or repelled by the Revival as well as plenty whose forebears had been converted and transformed by it.

The same sun that melts the wax hardens the clay.

That said, there was something very petty and pietistic about aspects of the Revival and of Welsh non-conformity in general. They took a very dim view of sports on Sundays and so on, even though these very sports were keeping people out of the pubs and giving them wholesome things to do.

A lot of the 'energy' generated (or channelled) by the Revival was channelled (or dissipated depending on your point of view) into Nationalism, social action and trades-union or Labour Party politics.

There was also a rather sinister side to it all, particularly in North Wales, where Anglicans were even cold-shouldered and forced to move from their homes in some areas. It wasn't always pretty, wasn't all the sweetness and light of popular Revivalist mythology.

Ultimately, there's only so long you can spend singing revivalist hymns at the top of your lungs. It's no wonder the revival movements ran their course. Evan Roberts was virtually a nervous wreck after 18 months. You can't keep up that level of intensity for prolonged periods and, I would argue, neither are we intended to.

There are lots of reasons for the decline of church attendance in Wales and some of the 'blame' must be assigned to the churches and chapels themselves - they were a victim of their own pietistic success and a victim of their own pietistic inability to channel it all more positively, I submit.
 

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Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :
 
From the perspective of one living and (attempting) preaching in The Valleys, I would suggest that a large part of the 'problem' is what I would describe as a "So What?" attitude. Certainly around where I live, churches have become very set in their ways and apt to drive out the younger element because they have the temerity to suggest that there is a need for change. You have probably heard the joke about how many elderly Baptist Deacons it takes to change a light bulb ...

What we find is that the general reaction to preaching Christ crucified is, "So what?" People, or certainly the younger age groups, are simply not interested in church - as far as they are concerned, it has nothing for them. I am sure that many people will want to jump on me for this remark, but there does seem to be an attitude of entitlement - the idea that there has to be something in it for me before I will take any interest in it. Is this, I wonder, because much of our advertising today seems to be based on the premise of desert? By which I mean, "You deserve a perfect life, it's not your fault that you don't have one."

People any much younger than myself (somewhat north of 50) are not interested in what the church has to offer. In fairness, the lack of interest is largely based upon ignorance - they have never taken the trouble to find out what the church does have to offer, but "everybody knows" there's nothing in the church that I want.

Curiously enough, given that the common theory is that what young people want is 'lively' worship, with drums and bass etc, it was the Pentecostal denominations that were the first to disappear from this area. The nearest Elim chapel is now in Caerffili (10 miles away), whilst the nearest AoG is in Crumlin (7 miles). I have no idea where the nearest Apostolic is to be found. All three had their representatives in Bargoed when I arrived here in 1983. All have gone. The Methodists had to abandon both their Central Hall and their Lesser Hall when they became too few to maintain the buildings. The English Baptists have had to hand their building over to the local council to use as a library and now lease back a small part of it for their use. Even the Roman Catholics have declined - where they used to hold three Masses on a Sunday, now they have one. Of all denominations that were in Bargoed in 1983, only the Anglicans are still looking (relatively) healthy, and I wouldn't put too much money on us.

Church has become something that kindles no interest ...

Clearly preaching is not hitting the spot; if we are not to vanish from the scene competely, we had better discover what does and that right early!

E.T.A. Well, you asked for a view from the Valleys - you have only yourselves to blame.

[ 27. August 2012, 18:56: Message edited by: Darllenwr ]
 

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Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ultimately, there's only so long you can spend singing revivalist hymns at the top of your lungs. It's no wonder the revival movements ran their course.

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Having spent 4 hours in a black church on Saturday where they were very noisily singing the songs of decades ago, I can assure you it can be maintained... not sure it's healthy - but it CAN be done!
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, Ender's Shadow, you can sustain it for a while, but ultimately you'll need to supplement it (I'm not suggesting they replace it) with something else.

The black-led churches don't JUST sing songs - they are involved with all sorts of community initiatives.

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned so far is the influence of alternatives to church. I once read a fascinating study about religion in Huddersfield. The chapels had been very, very strong from the 18th century through until around 1920 - but from about 1922 the decline was rapid. The study put this down to the emergence of the cinema and other forms of entertainment - prior to that it was all lantern-slides, amateur dramatics and sporting activities either closely or loosely connected with the churches and chapels.

Huddersfield and its surrounding Pennine Valleys are very, very similar to South Wales both culturally and demographically - although more ethnically diverse these days I would suggest.

There was the added element in Huddersfield that the whole town was owned and run by a small coterie of wealthy industrialists. The only 'say' that people had, in comparison to nearby Leeds where there was a more fluid and diverse economy and infrastructure, was which church or chapel to attend.

As things 'loosened up' in terms of the infrastructure, the ability to have a 'say' in how things were done and run, then church and chapel attendance also declined.

Interesting ...
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
It might be worth thinking for a moment about the parish share/quota whatever.......there seems to be about 3 grades of parishes and which one you're in depends on all sorts of circumstances
The following link gives details of how things are worked out in St.Alban's diocese. Yes I know it's English but I would've thought that the same principles would apply across the border and in most dioceses

How Parish Share is calculated

It seems however you do the sums you're looking for a contribution of £6-£7 per individual - and that's just the parish share - you haven't begun to think about saving money for a rainy day such as building repairs or indeed the charitable work of the church
So enpart's example of a parish share of £10K may seem small but it could still be a significant contribution for the members
Disestablishment has been mentioned - but I think it's not just that that's important but the reason behind it. Many people had turned from the church to the chapel which had the result I think of weakening the Anglican church as far as numbers are concerned so we're not starting from as strong a base as the Church of England. Yes later events have put the chapels in a parlous position to the extent that the Church in Wales is now the largest single denomination - or at least it was - last time I looked the RCs seem to be catching up if they haven't overtaken us - but that doesn't mean to say that the CiW is in a strong position. I have been amused in the past by Welsh bishops taking a stance on devolution saying that the CiW has never looked back, but that was definitely not the view of the Welsh bishops of the 1920s who if anything were terrified of the prospect
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Oh - forgot something. One other thing in the report recommends making Llandaff the archiepiscopal see. That is quite likely to strain charity considerably when the Governing Body meets I would suggest!!
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
They'll get over it. It's the only sensible option - you can't have the ApB of Wales based in St Asaph or Bangor; even Swansea would be hard work. Monmouth was just about do-able, last time, and Cardiff is by far the easiest now.

What about the recommendation to sell off parsonages and raise cleric's stipends so they can buy them back?

My reactions to this one were:
Why on earth? What good would it do?
Once most vicarages (4-5 beds, 2 bathrooms, 2 reception rooms, study) hit the market, no cleric on roughly £20K will afford them. Clerics will only be able to discern a calling to the area of town where they can afford a house.
No CofE clerics will come to Wales because they won't have saved enough to buy a house.
And raise cleric's stipends? All of them? With what money?
 

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Posted by enpart (# 17272) on :
 
Maybe from an increase in the block grant from the RB using money raised from the sale of all those closed church buildings (?)!

The parish share will be increased across the board - the review presents this as a plus-point for churches because even though there will be an initial raise, it will level off (at some point) and become stable at a fixed amount for a long period.

This is a bit speculative as it presumes that the renewal strategy will work - it's also definitely not a plus-point for those churches who will not be able to meet the initial raise.....bringing their 'financial viability' immediately into question.

I have a box of old letters in the church that were written by the incumbent rector at the time of disestablishment - he was definitely not a happy man!
 

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Posted by Below the Lansker (# 17297) on :
 
How much realistically would the CinW expect to be able to make on the sale of redundant buildings? I know the property market is depressed at the moment, but large double-decker town chapels that have been put onto the market here (ideal for subdivision into flats) take years to find buyers. I can't see mediaeval village churches, with their odd shape and damp-prone stonework, being any easier to dispose of.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Below the Landsker ... it's a long time since I heard that expression. Tidy!

Welcome aboard, West Walian friend ...


 

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Posted by Below the Lansker (# 17297) on :
 
I was going to say 'diolch', but I've seen spats and hostly interventions before on the use of languages other than English, so I'd better stick to 'Cheers, butt!'.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, I do lapse into Wenglish at times and no-one's told me off. Mind you, I do generally provide an interpretation whenever I do talk tidy now isn't it?
 

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Posted by Below the Lansker (# 17297) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Only recently we had some observations here aboard Ship that the Church in Wales is doing better in rural areas than the non-conformists are ... which must mean that the state of rural non-conformity in Wales must be even more desperate ...

I can't speak for rural Wales but I have noticed that in parts of rural Cheshire some village churches are doing quite well with refugees from town and suburban parishes where they've either moved the candles or introduced drum'n'bass ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
I was going to say 'diolch', but I've seen spats and hostly interventions before on the use of languages other than English, so I'd better stick to 'Cheers, butt!'.

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As long as you give a translation I don't think they mind too much but if you put things only in Welsh you'll probably get called on it......
Besides I thought people below the Landsker didn't speak Welsh......

I know only of two churches in Haverfordwest - St.Mary's and St.Martin's ( the High one) .......don't know if it's one of those - but what's the third one ?
 

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Posted by Below the Lansker (# 17297) on :
 
St Thomas a Becket - at the top of town, near the Green. There is also St. David's Prendergast, on the way up to the hospital, but it has historically been considered a village parish outside the town, so has its own incumbent. The three town parishes have the same ministerial team, I believe.

It's St Thomas a Becket which is closing, by the way.

[ 31. August 2012, 13:32: Message edited by: Below the Lansker ]
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Ok , I know this is a tangent but people unfamiliar with south and west Wales might not be aware of,so perhaps an explanation should be given - Wikipaedia is your friend!

Landsker Line

Also - what the article doesn't mention - is former Scandinavian/Viking influence especially off the south Pembrokeshire coast, eg the islands of Skokholm and Skomer which sound pure Danish to me. Also further east - take Swansea for instance. Nothing to do with swans or the sea but everything to do a Viking adventurer - Svein's 'eye' or harbour hence Swansea. In Welsh it's 'Abertawe' meaning the place where the river Tawe flows into sea
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Below the Lansker:
St Thomas a Becket - at the top of town, near the Green. There is also St. David's Prendergast, on the way up to the hospital, but it has historically been considered a village parish outside the town, so has its own incumbent. The three town parishes have the same ministerial team, I believe.

It's St Thomas a Becket which is closing, by the way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ondergard:

By the way, a POI for Lansker... we aren't called Wesleyan Methodists, and haven't been since 1932, when Methodist Union happened. I know it might seem trivial to you, but it wouldn't be if I started to call the Church in Wales the Church of England in Wales, would it?

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I presume that Lansker referred to 'Wesleyan Methodists' as a way of distinguishing them from the Calvinistic Methodists, who were very significant in Wales at one time.

Are the 'Wesleyan Methodists' now more numerous in Wales than the Calvinistic variety?

[ 02. September 2012, 23:34: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Calvinistic Methodists are now known as the Presbyterian Church of Wales (PCW) but in conversation they're often IME simply referred to as Methodists so often you need to do some unpicking to find out what's meant. Pace Ondergard, I do often find myself using the W word in those situations in the absence of a better one. "Proper" always seems like it might be offensive!
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Especially in Welsh speaking areas I think Seasick

Not in more English speaking areas - in fact if someone said 'Methodist' to me here I'd assume they meant 'Wesleyan' and not Calvinistic but to one of more former colleagues at work - admittedly in a Welsh speaking area - Methodist meant Calvinistic Methodist = PCW

I can assure Ondergard that no disrespect was meant to the Methodist Church at least as far as I was concerned and - I suspect - Below the Lansker

The other thing in Wales to be aware of is the United Reformed Church, in England a union of Presbyterians and Congregationalists. In Wales, the Anglophone Congregationalists have joined the URC, the PCW hasn't and Welsh Comgregationalism - 'Annibynwyr' in Welsh - is still a different denomination

With regard to Svitlana's question, I'm not sure. Certainly the Methodist churches in Swansea seem to be doing OK - Mumbles Methodist Church for instance is open daily, it's had renovation work I think and it also runs a cafe, so they seem to be doing OK, AFAICT.
 

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Posted by Below the Lansker (# 17297) on :
 
With regard to the use of Wesleyan Methodist, it was intended as a way of distinguishing you from Welsh Presbyterians. It's obviously not an issue in England, but using the word Methodist here (especially with people from a Welsh-speaking background) will often bring the rejoinder 'which ones do you mean?'. However, apologies if it raised any hackles.

Calvinistic Methodism was especially strong in the Welsh-speaking North and North-western areas, stretching down as far as South Cardiganshire. They have always been relatively weak in Pembrokeshire, due largely to a number of early fratricidal disagreements between Methodist preachers and to the fact that Baptists and Congregationalists had already established a network of congregations (both Welsh and English speaking) by the end of the 18th century. Even in their Welsh-speaking heartlands, they have undergone precipitous decine. Methodism in English-speaking Pembrokeshire tended to take the form of Wesleyan or (more rarely) Primitive Methodism. There are some Calvinistic Methodist chapels in English-speaking southern Pembrokeshire, but they are few and far between.

As for the number of houses of worship in relation to the population, yes it probably is true that there are far more buildings than we need. Even when some of them were built 'in the good old days when the chapels were full', it is clear from looking at the population returns and the capacity of some of the buildings that they would only have ever been full for special occasions.
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Well for those who are interested the GB are meeting next week


Governing Body Meeting

I shall be safe and sound in the north of England..... ...

Weapons .......

Well how about.....custard pies, jelly, fresh cream gateau......or will people be content with guided missals......

[ 05. September 2012, 22:05: Message edited by: Stephen ]
 

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