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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Do witches exist?
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Reading this article highlighting the lives of modern self-identified witches in contrast to those hanged for it 400 years ago, it makes me wonder at how the two match up. The witch hunts of Early Modern Europe and North America are almost universally considered by historians to be based in superstition and prejudice, particularly against single women, and those convicted of witchcraft were innocent of any actual supernatural behaviour. Modern witches on the other hand embrace the idea that their spells and rituals have supernatural effects.
My questions are:
Are these two ways of thinking compatible with each other, and are either compatible with Christian thinking?
Was there any actual supernatural behaviour carried out by people who were convicted of witchcraft? Do modern witches genuinely have supernatural abilities?
What is the Christian perspective on those convicted and executed for witchcraft? Was it a just punishment for any genuine witches amongst those convicted considering the Biblical perspective?
Do modern witches line up with the Biblical concept of a witch?
What should be the Christian attitude towards modern witchcraft - is it another pagan religion like all non-Christian religions, or is it a specific sin of its own? Does it include mediums, astrology etc?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Reading this article
quote:
It's not all blood and gore.
But some blood and gore? I wish he would have elaborated. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
(BTW your name reminds me of my dear departed cat - may she RIP.)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Some of my best friends are witches. Well, OK, just the one.
I tend to think of her religion the same way as I would that of any non-Christian friend -- respect her beliefs, be aware of differences, share what we can and try not to argue over what we disagree on. I don't think being a "witch," or a neo-pagan, or whatever, is in any special category.
C.S. Lewis had an interesting point to make about medieval persecution of witches and our modern perspective that this was a terrible thing to do. He said the change in attitude came about not because our morality changed but because we no longer "believed in" witches. If we really believed there were people who had sold their souls to the devil in return for the power to curse their neighbours, we'd probably still think it was OK to persecute them. I don't know if I'd go that far but I'm not sure most Christians today believe in that kind of witchcraft, and those who do are perhaps right to feel that it is dangerous.
But I think that's quite a different thing from what modern people, like my friend, who call themselves witches, mean. My friend hasn't made a deal with the devil; she doesn't even believe in Satan, because he's a character from Christian belief, and she's not a Christian. She is essentially someone who tries to make her spiritual life meaningful by incorporating modern reimaginings of ancient pagan rituals into her life. She doesn't use the term "magick" (with a K!!!) much, but when she does, I get the impression it's not much different from what I mean when I say "prayer" -- in her case perhaps with a ritual added like lighting a candle (but then some Christians would add that ritual to their prayers too).
The question of whether her "magick" has any efficacy seems to me to be exactly the same sort of question as whether a Hindu friend's prayer to Ganesh is in any way effective -- an interesting question, but one that has little to do with the Bible's proscriptions against witchcraft.
[ 18. August 2012, 11:49: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I think its quite hard for us to get our head around it in our western society at this particular point in history, but in cultures where traditions of 'witchcraft' and cursing etc still exist, it is truly very destructive to society and dreadful poison to communities. Whether it is real or not is pretty much beside the point if you ask me (and I don't think all cultures think of it in supernatural terms anyway) - the fact is that the perception of it is there and it is therefore destructive.
To a degree we still have it when we ask' why me?' or 'what did I do to deserve this?'. In one sense we are looking for a reason as to why bad things happen to us. The leap to my dastardly nemesis must be a curse happy witch is an easy one to make and likely has a certain psychological satisfaction in the short term. It doesn't necessarily have to be understood in supernatural terms either - it can simply be based on the influence someone has over you, and this is the mistake that a lot of anthropologists make when looking at this area: they assume that the ill educated natives believe everything is a sprite or evil demon come to curse them and make life a misery. The very real evil influence of a person on a community doesn't need any supernatural help. People can be really poisonous when they want to be.
In Europe and in the States something somewhat different was happening. In a time of enormous flux you could argue that the tension was literally beat out on someone. Again, it doesn't matter whether it was real or not (even at some point in the past before it got to a wheels within wheels stage), the social destruction was all too real.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Good points, Fletcher Christian -- I was looking at it from a wholly Western perspective. Of course the term "witch" can mean quite different in different culture.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
I was raised a Christian and became a witch and could identify with a lot of what the priestess in the article said. (Later I became a Christian again, but it was very different to my childhood beliefs).
When someone raised as a Christian becomes a witch, the church has failed and needs to take a look at itself. If a church doesn't teach the real supernatural power of God and prayer, then people will turn to magic. If it doesn't honour God as creator, then people will turn to nature worship. Children have a living spirituality that needs to be fed with more than the bible story worksheets that they get in Sunday School. Sadly it's often the more sensitive and creative children that leave the church for paganism.
Medieval witchcraft, where it was real and not scapegoating, was probably more similar to African witchcraft than modern Wicca. It was about using supernatural power for selfish ends in a way that harms communities. In many places today communities live in fear of witchdoctors. is it a slipperly spiritual slope from 'white' magic to cursing? I believe so, but I know many Wiccans would find that statement personally offensive, and I don't say every individual Wiccan is going to head down that slope.
I was reading about the medieval witch trials the other day, and witches were only charged with 'causing harm' by witchcraft, not witchcraft itself. Later, when it became defined as heresy, they were lumped in with other heretics for execution. Is it acceptable, just or biblical to execute heretics? No.
I have friends who are pagans and my attitude is the same as towards everyone else - to try to treat them as my neighbour and respectfully exchange views if religion comes up. I think Wicca is misguided, but then I think much of 'secular' culture is harmful and misguided too. The moment you lable one group of sinners as worse and more hellbound than any other you have become worse than they are, and this has always been true.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
Medieval witchcraft, where it was real and not scapegoating, was probably more similar to African witchcraft than modern Wicca. It was about using supernatural power for selfish ends in a way that harms communities. In many places today communities live in fear of witchdoctors. is it a slipperly spiritual slope from 'white' magic to cursing? I believe so, but I know many Wiccans would find that statement personally offensive, and I don't say every individual Wiccan is going to head down that slope.
I'm not sure any Wiccan is going down that slope - it's pretty incompatible with Wiccan beliefs, particularly the Wiccan Rede. Now, I know some Heathens who would defend their right to use curses and hexes against those who have harmed them, but not Wiccans.
From what I know, I'd largely agree with what Trudy says. I'd also add that I'm inclined towards the belief that C. S. Lewis expressed (in the Last Battle among other places) that service rendered in the right spirit, even if the target is believed to be someone other than God, is counted as rendered to God. Any belief that results in good intent and right action has something of God in it.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My village burned a witch in 1596. What is interesting about her is that she had taken a neighbour to court several years earlier (unsuccessfully!). She was clearly a difficult woman, and probably was threatening the rest of the village with her alleged "supernatural" powers, while it was still safe to do so. Then the North Berwick witch trials happened, and suddenly what had probably been anti-social behaviour was a capital offence.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Belief in witches was alive and kicking in the fen village of my youth in the 1960's and 1970's. Every village had a "wise woman" who was the layer out of the dead, unofficial midwife and who it was not considered good to cross.
Most of them looked pretty bad anyway! (They were called will-jills, I seem to remember - women who looked and dressed like men).
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The more you say about the Fens, Exclamation Mark, the more pleased I am that I didn't grow up there ...
I quite like Elgood's Black Dog but haven't been that impressed with the rest of their beers. Certainly not enough to want to move there ...
I've always had an appalled fascination as I've driven below the Wash on the way to Norfolk or Suffolk ... part of me can't to get that section of the journey over with ...
Perhaps Graham Swift's 'Waterworld' has something to do with it ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
C.S. Lewis had an interesting point to make about medieval persecution of witches and our modern perspective that this was a terrible thing to do. He said the change in attitude came about not because our morality changed but because we no longer "believed in" witches. If we really believed there were people who had sold their souls to the devil in return for the power to curse their neighbours, we'd probably still think it was OK to persecute them.
As a counterpoint to the OP and the above post, there's this article.
quote:
The rainy season is over and the Niger Delta is lush and humid. This southern edge of West Africa, where Nigeria's wealth pumps out of oil and gas fields to bypass millions of its poorest people, is a restless place. In the small delta state of Akwa Ibom, the tension and the poverty has delivered an opportunity for a new and terrible phenomenon that is leading to the abuse and the murder of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children. And it is being done in the name of Christianity.
Almost everyone goes to church here. Driving through the town of Esit Eket, the rust-streaked signs, tarpaulins hung between trees and posters on boulders, advertise a church for every third or fourth house along the road. Such names as New Testament Assembly, Church of God Mission, Mount Zion Gospel, Glory of God, Brotherhood of the Cross, Redeemed, Apostalistic. Behind the smartly painted doors pastors make a living by 'deliverances' - exorcisms - for people beset by witchcraft, something seen to cause anything from divorce, disease, accidents or job losses. With so many churches it's a competitive market, but by local standards a lucrative one.
But an exploitative situation has now grown into something much more sinister as preachers are turning their attentions to children - naming them as witches. In a maddened state of terror, parents and whole villages turn on the child. They are burnt, poisoned, slashed, chained to trees, buried alive or simply beaten and chased off into the bush.
Some parents scrape together sums needed to pay for a deliverance - sometimes as much as three or four months' salary for the average working man - although the pastor will explain that the witch might return and a second deliverance will be needed. Even if the parent wants to keep the child, their neighbours may attack it in the street.
This is not just a few cases. This is becoming commonplace. In Esit Eket, up a nameless, puddled-and-potholed path is a concrete shack stuffed to its fetid rafters with roughly made bunk beds. Here, three to a bed like battery chickens, sleep victims of the besuited Christian pastors and their hours-long, late-night services. Ostracised and abandoned, these are the children a whole community believes fervently are witches.
If you believe witchcraft is a real thing, as TS has pointed out, this kind of situation is at least plausibly justifiable.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I would very much recommend Tanya Luhrmann's Persuasions of the Witch's Craft - an anthropological study of modern (c 1980s) magic users.
It's an excellent window into the various strands of paganism.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
But an exploitative situation has now grown into something much more sinister as preachers are turning their attentions to children - naming them as witches. In a maddened state of terror, parents and whole villages turn on the child. They are burnt, poisoned, slashed, chained to trees, buried alive or simply beaten and chased off into the bush.
Some parents scrape together sums needed to pay for a deliverance - sometimes as much as three or four months' salary for the average working man - although the pastor will explain that the witch might return and a second deliverance will be needed. Even if the parent wants to keep the child, their neighbours may attack it in the street.
This is not just a few cases. This is becoming commonplace. In Esit Eket, up a nameless, puddled-and-potholed path is a concrete shack stuffed to its fetid rafters with roughly made bunk beds. Here, three to a bed like battery chickens, sleep victims of the besuited Christian pastors and their hours-long, late-night services. Ostracised and abandoned, these are the children a whole community believes fervently are witches.
If you believe witchcraft is a real thing, as TS has pointed out, this kind of situation is at least plausibly justifiable.
Didn't Jesus have something to say about doing this kind of damage to children? Something about millstones and seas? What, simony wasn't enough for these "pastors"? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
If the problem with "witches" is that they damage a community, then these "pastors" are the bone fide witches. Satan would probably sell his soul to them if they would teach him a thing or two.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Was there any actual supernatural behaviour carried out by people who were convicted of witchcraft? Do modern witches genuinely have supernatural abilities?
The New Church has very definite teachings about witchcraft.
The short answer, according to the New Church, is that, yes, witchcraft is real. Genuine witches and wizards have supernatural abilities. However, the conditions that enable magic to happen are not prevalent in the modern world, making true witchcraft nearly impossible.
The way that witchcraft actually works is through the ability of a witch or wizard to manipulate the life that normally flows from God and heaven through the spiritual world into the physical world. All things exist by virtue of this influx, and someone who is able to manipulate this power can work magic.
In ancient times there were two conditions that made it possible for people to really do this:
- 1. The first is that there were people in the spiritual world who were both very good and very simple, who could become conduits for skilled magicians. Believing that they were attaching themselves to something positive and good they could be manipulated into sending energy that could be used in negative ways.
- 2. The second is that among ancient peoples there was the almost universal use of complex symbolism, which many ancient peoples understood and used in their worship. Through these symbols, and through occult practices, they made contact with spirits, both good and bad, and were able to direct them in a way that resulted in magic.
Because of these two conditions witches and wizards could clandestinely kill people, move objects, change things into different things, gain control of people, set fires, and do other similar things.
Fortunately, these things are almost impossible nowadays for two similar reasons:
- 1. Since the Lord's Advent the simple good spirits who would allow themselves to be conduits for evil no longer exist. The demarcation between good and evil is more sharply defined, and so it is much more difficult for the evil to masquerade as good in order to access the power of heaven.
- 2. The other reason magic is much rarer is that the knowledge of how to do it has almost completely died out. No one in the educated world has that knowledge, or believes in it, and people in older cultures that still believe in it have only a limited understanding of it.
In order for magic to work a practitioner has to have communication with the spiritual world, be able to contact spirits with access to heaven, and know how to manipulate them. This is almost impossible because it requires a person to be both sincerely devout and also wicked.
What is easily possible is for a person, through occult practices, to come into contact with spirits, something forbidden in the Bible because it is spiritually dangerous.
Modern witches have no power like what I have described. But their beliefs share many of the ideas that were prevalent among ancient peoples who practiced genuine magic.
Fundamentally, though, magic is necessarily evil. There is no such thing as good magic. The good equivalent are the miracles described in the Bible, which happen in a similar but fundamentally different way.
Anyway, that is the view that my denomination takes on this topic.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476
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Posted
On the practice of witchcraft in Africa, a Ugandan friend once told me that boys there are circumcised (and girls have their ears pierced) because once their bodies have been "cut" they are no longer suitable for use in witchcraft. She added that a second cousin of hers (aged around 8) had been abducted once, but as soon as his abductors confirmed that he was circumcised, they let him go.
I was reminded of this story when I came across the following article:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/ugandan-survivor-finds-hope-in-australia-20120511-1yies.html
quote:
Five-year-old George is a survivor of child sacrifice. He was aged just two, playing football with his brothers, when his neighbour offered to take him into town for sweets.
But instead, John Otebati, a witch doctor, took him to a nearby banana plantation and castrated him with a knife.
In Uganda children live in fear of child sacrifice, driven by unscrupulous witch doctors and their accomplices or fraudulent traditional healers who claim they can bring power, prosperity and money.
Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Some years ago I read an article that said some of the women who were accused of witchcraft in Salem may have ingested a rye mold, Ergot that had some of the same properties as LSD. The women were tripping.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re ergot poisoning:
The speculation I heard was that the *accusers* may have been the ones tripping, and their hallucinations prompted the accusations.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've always had an appalled fascination as I've driven below the Wash on the way to Norfolk or Suffolk ... part of me can't to get that section of the journey over with ...
The Black Dog legend spreads as far south as cambridge. The Fens is a strange flat eerie place even now - you can only imagine what it might've been like before/during the clearance. Even today its very disorienting and at its worse when the mists come down.
Mind you, the rumours of witches and covens are still strong between wood and water. OK a lot of it is an excuse (in a very rural area) for a bit of alfresco sex and nudity, but soeme of the participants undoubtedly belief that there's a spiritual act to what they're doing and it isn't all nice. There are the usual pagans - in Tintagel, Braunton, Glastonbury - but also an undercurrent of malevolence too.
In 11 years, on a couple of occasions I came across solid evidence of "something" having gone on - once in a barn.
As to the efficacy of the ceremonies, well they'd hardly get involved if they got nothin out of it, would they?
One of my predecessors was very well known (sensible) man in the sphere of dealing with this stuff and he found plenty to do.
There was a national news story about 15 years ago concernng Rushden Northants where a coven met at a local adult education centre. It all came out when blackmail began in the coven nd the police got involved.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
when the mists come down.
alfresco sex and nudity
Given England's climate, anyone engaging in outdoor nudity and bonking has to be possessed of strange superhuman occultic powers.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
I don't know about other countries, but Canada still has a law against the fraudulent practice of witchcraft. But as the language implies, you have to be doing it for money in order to be prosecuted.
As the article says, the law is not generally enforced, as witnessed by the open marketing of psychic services in newspapers etc. I assume the practitioners get around the law by muttering the "entertainment only" caveat at the beginning of their sessions. As well, they probably keep their promises vague enough to avoid proof of deception. Presumably, this guy didn't take the neccessary precautions.
[ 19. August 2012, 16:09: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
when the mists come down.
alfresco sex and nudity
Given England's climate, anyone engaging in outdoor nudity and bonking has to be possessed of strange superhuman occultic powers.
We're made of tough stuff in the Fens. Must be the yellow bellies.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Hellish Nell was imprisoned for witchcraft during the Second World War; the Witchcraft Act was subsequently repealed.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
On the practice of witchcraft in Africa, a Ugandan friend once told me that boys there are circumcised (and girls have their ears pierced) because once their bodies have been "cut" they are no longer suitable for use in witchcraft.
I had never heard this. I lived for two years in a small village in West Africa where everyone believed in magic. All the girls had their ears pierced as infants. I don't know if it was for that reason.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Some communities in Uganda circumcise boys, some don't. There is a lot of difference between the many cultures there.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've always had an appalled fascination as I've driven below the Wash on the way to Norfolk or Suffolk ... part of me can't to get that section of the journey over with ...
It sounds as though you should read
this book, Gamaliel.
I'm intrigued by the suggestion that there were "wise women" laying out the dead into the 1970s - I know my grandfather was laid out by a neighbour in 1958, but I'd assumed that by the time I appeared it had died out.
Tangenially, Boscastle in Cornwall is home to the Museum of Witchcraft. When Boscastle was devastated in 2004 by a monstrous flash flood, the museum was filled with water and sewage to the ground floor roof, but the building survived, whilst the neighbouring Christian bookshop (with which apparently they had very cordial relations) was washed away. God does indeed, move in mysterious ways...
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
......If a church doesn't teach the real supernatural power of God and prayer, then people will turn to magic. If it doesn't honour God as creator, then people will turn to nature worship.......
You may well know of a few cases where this is true but it's not always so - some of us worked out that exchanging the frying pan for the fire is just plain daft.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Fundamentally, though, magic is necessarily evil. There is no such thing as good magic. The good equivalent are the miracles described in the Bible, which happen in a similar but fundamentally different way.
You realize how much this sounds like special pleading, right? Essentially it boils down to "my magic is good, your magic is bad".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Institutional Christianity has received some bad press in recent decades, a lot of it unfortunately justified, over its treatment of "witches" in the past.
It seems to have died down recently, but some of the inaccurate history flying around included:
1. That many millions of women died, whereas the figure is in the low hundreds of thousands (yes, that is also a horrific figure).
2. That witch-hunting was an activity of the church in the mediaeval period, whereas the main era of witch-hunts was the early modern age, and was carried out by secular courts.
3. That the Inquisitions were in the forefront of witch-hunts, whereas they actually displayed a sceptical attitude toward accusations of witchcraft.
The Salem witch trials of the 1690s have also received a lot of attention, for which Arthur Miller's The Crucible is partly responsible, but fewer than twenty of the accused were executed, a large proportion of whom were males; no-one was burned; and leading clerics later admitted that the whole episode was very dubious (which of course didn't do the victims any good!)
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Fundamentally, though, magic is necessarily evil. There is no such thing as good magic. The good equivalent are the miracles described in the Bible, which happen in a similar but fundamentally different way.
You realize how much this sounds like special pleading, right? Essentially it boils down to "my magic is good, your magic is bad".
Sure. I'm not sure that too many people will agree with my explanation of how magic works anyway. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
But if you follow the description I gave of the way that magic works it requires the diversion of power that originates in God to other purposes. Miracles, on the other hand, derive their power directly from God to fulfill His ultimate purposes.
Magic requires deception, so it can't be good. It also requires contacting spirits, which is also not good.
But yes, this may be seen as special pleading. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
But if you follow the description I gave of the way that magic works it requires the diversion of power that originates in God to other purposes. Miracles, on the other hand, derive their power directly from God to fulfill His ultimate purposes.
Magic requires deception, so it can't be good. It also requires contacting spirits, which is also not good.
"By the power of the Moon Fairies, you will be granted a promotion at work and a brand new car in the next year!!"
"By the power of Jesus, you will be granted a promotion at work and a brand new car in the next year!!"
Now, okay, so technically, yes, the second speaker is NOT diverting power away from God, and NOT contacting spirits, so he's on firmer ground than the first guy. But still, when it gets to the point that Jesus is promising corner offices and brand-new BMWs to people, he's essentially being reduced to the level of a sorcerer's errand boy.
And yes, I realize that Christianity in general is hardly synonymous with the Prosperity Gospel. But it's an extreme example to indicate how blurry these distinctions can become. If I can get the same healing from the Moon Fairies that I can get from Our Lady Of Lourdes, it kinda raises questions about just how special Our Lady Of Lourdes really was to begin with.
[ 20. August 2012, 00:21: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
Shamanistic Influences In Korean Pentecostal Christianity
Works as a case-study for the point I was making above.
(And no, I don't endorse everything about Rick Ross. Cult "deprogrammers" have some pretty dubious aspects in their own right.)
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
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Originally posted by Stetson:
"By the power of Jesus, you will be granted a promotion at work and a brand new car in the next year!!"
Now, okay, so technically, yes, the second speaker is NOT diverting power away from God, and NOT contacting spirits, so he's on firmer ground than the first guy.
I'm not sure that qualifies as magic. More like fraud.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Net Spinster
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# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Institutional Christianity has received some bad press in recent decades, a lot of it unfortunately justified, over its treatment of "witches" in the past.
...
The Salem witch trials of the 1690s have also received a lot of attention, for which Arthur Miller's The Crucible is partly responsible, but fewer than twenty of the accused were executed, a large proportion of whom were males; no-one was burned; and leading clerics later admitted that the whole episode was very dubious (which of course didn't do the victims any good!)
I'm not sure anyone who knows anything is saying much different about the Salem witch trials (and given the total population of Massachusetts was only about 57,000 and Salem only a few hundred, 19 was a large number). In addition one was pressed to death since he refused to plea and at least four died for various reasons in prison. Three others were convicted but not executed (I believe they still lost their property and their legal status) and dozens spent extended time in prison before the fervor of the witch hunt died out.
In modern times we do seem to have large numbers of witchcraft accusations and persecution (legal and mob) sometimes unto death of accused witches or exile into 'witch camps' in some countries.
For instance the situation in Ghana
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2011/0915/Ghana-aims-to-abolish-witches-camps
http://www.voanews.com/content/ghana-witch-camps-slow-to-close/940349.html
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
"By the power of the Moon Fairies, you will be granted a promotion at work and a brand new car in the next year!!"
"By the power of Jesus, you will be granted a promotion at work and a brand new car in the next year!!"
Now, okay, so technically, yes, the second speaker is NOT diverting power away from God, and NOT contacting spirits, so he's on firmer ground than the first guy.
That's also special pleading, of the "my spirits are totally different than his spirits" variety. An invisible, intangible entity exerting supernatural influence would seem to still fall under the definition of "spirit", even if named "Jesus".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Institutional Christianity has received some bad press in recent decades, a lot of it unfortunately justified, over its treatment of "witches" in the past.
It seems to have died down recently, but some of the inaccurate history flying around included:
1. That many millions of women died, whereas the figure is in the low hundreds of thousands (yes, that is also a horrific figure).
2. That witch-hunting was an activity of the church in the mediaeval period, whereas the main era of witch-hunts was the early modern age, and was carried out by secular courts.
3. That the Inquisitions were in the forefront of witch-hunts, whereas they actually displayed a sceptical attitude toward accusations of witchcraft.
The Salem witch trials of the 1690s have also received a lot of attention, for which Arthur Miller's The Crucible is partly responsible, but fewer than twenty of the accused were executed, a large proportion of whom were males; no-one was burned; and leading clerics later admitted that the whole episode was very dubious (which of course didn't do the victims any good!)
What exactly is your point here? It reads like someone complaining that Charles Manson is usually referred to as an infamous murderer, when all he was ever convicted of is that he got other people to commit murder for him.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Institutional Christianity has received some bad press in recent decades, a lot of it unfortunately justified, over its treatment of "witches" in the past.
It seems to have died down recently, but some of the inaccurate history flying around included:
1. That many millions of women died, whereas the figure is in the low hundreds of thousands (yes, that is also a horrific figure).
2. That witch-hunting was an activity of the church in the mediaeval period, whereas the main era of witch-hunts was the early modern age, and was carried out by secular courts.
3. That the Inquisitions were in the forefront of witch-hunts, whereas they actually displayed a sceptical attitude toward accusations of witchcraft.
The Salem witch trials of the 1690s have also received a lot of attention, for which Arthur Miller's The Crucible is partly responsible, but fewer than twenty of the accused were executed, a large proportion of whom were males; no-one was burned; and leading clerics later admitted that the whole episode was very dubious (which of course didn't do the victims any good!)
What exactly is your point here? It reads like someone complaining that Charles Manson is usually referred to as an infamous murderer, when all he was ever convicted of is that he got other people to commit murder for him.
My point, which I would have thought was obvious to the meanest intelligence, is that our very understandable revulsion against the persecution of "witches" does not justify embroidering the historical record with inaccuracies or exaggerations.
[ 20. August 2012, 02:13: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Not witchcraft per se, but a modern example of something I hadn't realised still happened.
My waters didn't break when I had my daughter, so she was born in the caul. The midwife's first comment was that the baby would have second sight. (This was before we even knew whether we'd had a boy or a girl.) The midwife took the caul, divided it into two and prepared the pieces, one as a lucky charm which she kept, one as a lucky charm for us to take home. I had no idea that NHS midwives did this!
At home, I threw our charm in the bin; I wasn't comfortable with the whole thing. Now I rather wish I'd kept it as a curiosity. Dicken's David Copperfield had a caul, so it would have had a certain literary interest!
Anyone else gone into a modern hospital, and had the staff prepare a lucky charm for them?? Or indeed come across a "charm" in a context they weren't expecting?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've always had an appalled fascination as I've driven below the Wash on the way to Norfolk or Suffolk ... part of me can't to get that section of the journey over with ...
It sounds as though you should read
this book, Gamaliel.
1. I'm intrigued by the suggestion that there were "wise women" laying out the dead into the 1970s - I know my grandfather was laid out by a neighbour in 1958, but I'd assumed that by the time I appeared it had died out.
2. Tangenially, Boscastle in Cornwall is home to the Museum of Witchcraft. When Boscastle was devastated in 2004 by a monstrous flash flood, the museum was filled with water and sewage to the ground floor roof, but the building survived, whilst the neighbouring Christian bookshop (with which apparently they had very cordial relations) was washed away. God does indeed, move in mysterious ways...
AG
1. Bizarre but true. The undertaker was the local carpenter and builder. It has to be said that this practice continued mainly with farm labourers and the like. The posh people used the services of the Funeral Firm in the local town.
2. I used to live a few miles away across the border and got bits of the village washed up on the local beach. Tbh Boscastle used to give a few people the creeps because of the witches house -- and it was some of the less charismatic, more robust members of the church (mainly older ones). It's not my experience either that the witch museum and bookshop were exactly bosum buddies -- sounds like a bit of talking it up to me into something it wasn't. But then again, it's not exactly reknowned as bastion of evangelical churchmanship around there either whatever your denominational taste ....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Not witchcraft per se, but a modern example of something I hadn't realised still happened.
My waters didn't break when I had my daughter, so she was born in the caul. The midwife's first comment was that the baby would have second sight. (This was before we even knew whether we'd had a boy or a girl.) The midwife took the caul, divided it into two and prepared the pieces, one as a lucky charm which she kept, one as a lucky charm for us to take home. I had no idea that NHS midwives did this!
At home, I threw our charm in the bin; I wasn't comfortable with the whole thing. Now I rather wish I'd kept it as a curiosity. Dicken's David Copperfield had a caul, so it would have had a certain literary interest!
Anyone else gone into a modern hospital, and had the staff prepare a lucky charm for them?? Or indeed come across a "charm" in a context they weren't expecting?
Yep that's the same belief as in the Fens. There is (or was - I haven't been there in years), one such caul in the cambriudge folk museum.
Not heard of it being done for years. Never heard of charms on the NHS and Mrs Mark and all 3 daughters work on it. Sounds if you had a pagan midwife!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I don't know if she was a pagan, but I know that she was a Radical Midwife, so perhaps the preparing of charms comes within the ambit of "traditional midwifery." Whatever, she was a brilliant midwife. I could have lived without the prediction of second sight for my daughter, though!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
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Posted
Quite a fascinating thread and I must say I found some of the posts, including those by fletcher christian; North East Quine and Exclamation Mark useful.
The late Joseph Campbell the mythologist said that he felt, under certain circumstances, Magic (read witchcraft) could work.
There are strong traditions of sorcery and witchcraft in many Non-western countries and a strong residue in much British folk belief.
Much has been said here about the "Christian" approach to witchcraft, both historic and current. I don't really wish to get involved in that, because I think the subject is best left untouched, unless it directly affects someone adversely, in which case, ruling out all other possibilities, the appropriate religious authorities need to be approached.
Real Magic, or Witchcraft, seems to work by invoking power or a Power for one's own ends, which I think is incredibly dangerous and definitely un-Christian.
It is interesting, in her book "Dangerous Persuaders" about cult and other psychological manipulation, Louise Samways, a psychologist and agnostic, does deal with some of the psychologically damaging effects on people who get involved with Magic. Quite sobering stuff.
http://www.louisesamways.com.au/
There is much interest in the occult these days. Some TV series, such as "Charmed", have evoked people's interest in witchcraft. My advice would definitely be caveat emptor. There are some roads best never walked.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
The folklore I've always heard related to cauls is that a person born with a caul can't die by drowning, which of course in a seafaring culture would make it a pretty prized thing (if you happened to believe in it).
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Much has been said here about the "Christian" approach to witchcraft, both historic and current. I don't really wish to get involved in that, because I think the subject is best left untouched, unless it directly affects someone adversely, in which case, ruling out all other possibilities, the appropriate religious authorities need to be approached.
Well that's just it, isn't it? If witches are actually out there curdling milk and blighting crops, doesn't that call for a response along "traditional" lines? It's like the old saying, you can't make a witch-free omlette without driving five nails into a nine year old's skull.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
There are strong traditions of sorcery and witchcraft in many Non-western countries and a strong residue in much British folk belief.
That's very true esp in remote rural areas. The efficacy (or not) of witchcraft would depend (if it's real) on tapping into the dark side outisde human explanation or if it's merely psychological on tapping into the dark side within people.
A lot of witchcraft beliefs in eastern england are tied (inextricably I think) to prevailing views of women. There was for example one fear that oif you allowed a woman who was "ill at ease" to milk cows, churn butter or wash her hair then curdled milk, rancied butter or madness would result.
Now I know we men don't understand it but women's periods, don't IME, cause these kind of problems.
Daft as such views may seem today they were accepted as true by people in their 70's/80's back in the 1970's - the result of a lifetime, if not many generations of lifetimes, of beliefs.
There's no doubt that to illiterate unworldly labourers, a woman with a basic knowledge of medicinal herbs growing in gardens and hedgerows, could seem a "charmed" person. Most country people still have an inkling of knowledge. My dad chews fverfew for migraine; has hops in his dried flower display to help sleep; inter plants marigolds, carrots and onion and never gets fly on them.
I once stopped the blood on a bad sickle cut on my arm by binding a dock leaf round it. I was a mile away from anyone else with no 1st aid kit (it was the 70's): a dock leaf and handkerchief stopped the blood and drew the edges together by the coolness of the leaves. A faint 4 inch scar on my arm is the reminder.
Imagine what the same would look like generations ago when they'd seen people bleed to death from similar accidents.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The folklore I've always heard related to cauls is that a person born with a caul can't die by drowning, which of course in a seafaring culture would make it a pretty prized thing (if you happened to believe in it).
Yep thats the fen belief (remember it was a pretty waterlogged area).
If i remember rightly the caul in cambridge Folk Museum had been back and forth across the Atlantic with several members of the family whpo were seafarers.
At the least it could be seen as sympathetic magick - a psychological boost.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
There was for example one fear that if you allowed a woman who was "ill at ease" to milk cows, churn butter or wash her hair then curdled milk, rancied butter or madness would result.
<thinking out loud> I grew up about 15 miles from Cleveland, Ohio in a place that was rapidly making the transition from farmland to suburb in the 1960s. One of my friends was a girl whose parents had one of the few remaining working farms. She absolutely refused to wash her hair when she was menstruating, but gave no reason other than saying she had always heard it was "bad for you" to do it. I wonder if something similar was at the root of her belief. </thinking out loud>
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
There was for example one fear that if you allowed a woman who was "ill at ease" to milk cows, churn butter or wash her hair then curdled milk, rancied butter or madness would result.
<thinking out loud> I grew up about 15 miles from Cleveland, Ohio in a place that was rapidly making the transition from farmland to suburb in the 1960s. One of my friends was a girl whose parents had one of the few remaining working farms. She absolutely refused to wash her hair when she was menstruating, but gave no reason other than saying she had always heard it was "bad for you" to do it. I wonder if something similar was at the root of her belief. </thinking out loud>
Sounds like it doesn't it? Perhaps the ancestors arrived in Ohio from Eastern England
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