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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: My country includes stupidity!
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Loquacious beachcomber
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# 8783
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Posted
So, here we go again; the separatists are banging at the door in Quebec, the entire country is doomed, OH NO! Yet again.
For those outside of Canada, Quebec is part way through a provincial election, with the Parti Quebecois running on a platform of Quebec leaving Canada to form their own poutine-eating nation.
Since that would take a puzzle piece out of the map of the nation, it could leave Canada's very continued existence in jeopardy. In theory.
The ruling Liberal Party in Quebec is facing rejection due to rampant suggestions of financial corruption, neither the first Liberal Party nor the first Quebec politicians to raise such concerns.
Now, I like Quebec, a number of my distant family offshoots had high profile roles in Montreal in a previous century, and I like Canada just as it is.
Last time this sort of thing happened, there were billboards in English Canada saying, "My Canada Includes Quebec!" Good sentiment, IMHO.
But - sometimes, do any of my fellow Canadians ever wish the Battle of the Plains of Abraham had never happened, Quebec had been included in the Louisianna Purchase, and a national crisis on unity wouldn't come knoking every 20 years or so?
Personally, I wish that Britain had been the one to complete the Louisianna purchase. We could have had the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho as part of the Canadian mosaic. After all, America already has a desert or two; why couldn't we have had the Great Northwestern Desert as part of Canada?
As well as Quebec, of course; my country includes stupidity, and therefore must embrace Quebec.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No one really cares out west. Too busy trying to become more the USA it seems.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Personally, I wish that Britain had been the one to complete the Louisianna purchase. We could have had the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho as part of the Canadian mosaic. After all, America already has a desert or two; why couldn't we have had the Great Northwestern Desert as part of Canada?
A couple of historical quibbles:
1) It is dubious at best that Napoleon would have been been willing to sell Louisiana to the British. The Brits and French don't buy land off each other, they kill each other and take it.
2) At the time of the purchase, those "American" deserts were part of New Spain.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Didn't the French sell Louisiana to fund a war against the British and their allies?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Personally, I wish that Britain had been the one to complete the Louisianna purchase. We could have had the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho as part of the Canadian mosaic. After all, America already has a desert or two; why couldn't we have had the Great Northwestern Desert as part of Canada?
A couple of historical quibbles:
1) It is dubious at best that Napoleon would have been been willing to sell Louisiana to the British. The Brits and French don't buy land off each other, they kill each other and take it.
2) At the time of the purchase, those "American" deserts were part of New Spain.
Ummm, Thomas Jefferson sent the Lewis and Clarke expedition out to map the western portion of the Louisianna Purchase; I believe that the title 'Great American Desert' came from their efforts. Spain had some western lands, sure; that is why Lewis and Clarke's arrival at the Pacific Ocean maybe stretched things a tiny bit. President Jefferson had apparently instructed Lewis and Clarke to send back a live sample of a mastadon, so the understanding of things western were maybe a bit blurred back then.
And yeah, I know the french were not about to sell lands to Britain; I just wish they had.
Maybe now that all the gold and copper mines there are all played out, America could sell several mostly empty states to Canada now? We could put in zipline mountain rides and theme parks.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Didn't the French sell Louisiana to fund a war against the British and their allies?
I believe that was more or less it, yes.
One odd thing, in the movie Rogue Trader, about that guy who brought down the British financial house Barings, it is stated, I assume truthfully, that Barings was the firm that handled the Louisiana Purchase, and they apparently even had a copy of the relevant document displayed proudly in their offices. But they were a British company, which seemed strange to me.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
So, here we go again; the separatists are banging at the door in Quebec, the entire country is doomed, OH NO! Yet again.
For those outside of Canada, Quebec is part way through a provincial election, with the Parti Quebecois running on a platform of Quebec leaving Canada to form their own poutine-eating nation.
Since that would take a puzzle piece out of the map of the nation, it could leave Canada's very continued existence in jeopardy. In theory.
The ruling Liberal Party in Quebec is facing rejection due to rampant suggestions of financial corruption, neither the first Liberal Party nor the first Quebec politicians to raise such concerns.
Now, I like Quebec, a number of my distant family offshoots had high profile roles in Montreal in a previous century, and I like Canada just as it is.
Last time this sort of thing happened, there were billboards in English Canada saying, "My Canada Includes Quebec!" Good sentiment, IMHO.
But - sometimes, do any of my fellow Canadians ever wish the Battle of the Plains of Abraham had never happened, Quebec had been included in the Louisianna Purchase, and a national crisis on unity wouldn't come knoking every 20 years or so?
Personally, I wish that Britain had been the one to complete the Louisianna purchase. We could have had the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho as part of the Canadian mosaic. After all, America already has a desert or two; why couldn't we have had the Great Northwestern Desert as part of Canada?
As well as Quebec, of course; my country includes stupidity, and therefore must embrace Quebec.
Quebec is the most left-wing province in Canada. If we didn't have Quebec, we would be more conservative like the wonderful paradise across the 49th parallel.
For that, I thank God for Quebec.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Last time this sort of thing happened, there were billboards in English Canada saying, "My Canada Includes Quebec!" Good sentiment, IMHO.
I believe that slogan was from the nationwide Charlottetown referendum, in 1992, not from a Quebec referendum. Charlottetown(for non-Canadians) involved making constitutional revisions that were supposedly amenable to Quebec's aspirations, in exchange for Quebec agreeing to finally sign the 1982 constitution.
The implication of the slogan, of course, was: If you don't support giving Quebec these powers, clearly you don't want Quebec in Canada. A pretty clear example of a false dilemna.
I voted for Charlottetown, but in retrospect, don't quite know why. Quebec still hasn't left Canada, and even if the PQ does hold another referendum, I find it unlikely that it will produce a Yes vote for a clear mandate to form their own nation. Worst case, a bare majority of Quebeckers vote for a vaguely worded statement about sovereignty something or other, and the feds play hardball in the subsequent negotiations, knowing that the PQ doesn't have any substantial backing for their position.
FEDS: Ahh, no, we're not gonna give you "sovereignity".
PQ: Oh yeah? Well, then we'll just have another referendum asking for total independence!
FEDS: Knock yourself out.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Anglican Brat wrote:
quote:
Quebec is the most left-wing province in Canada. If we didn't have Quebec, we would be more conservative like the wonderful paradise across the 49th parallel.
Some truth to that.
But let's not forget which province teamed up with Alberta to provide a huge chunk of the support for Mulroney's free-trade deal(the precursor to NAFTA) in '88. Jacques Parizeau and other PQ luminaries came out openly in favour of that.
Plus, what we're hearing from the PQ on immigration and "assimilation" issues sounds like the banter at a typical donut-shop in central Alberta. It's always funny to read the comments from English-Canadians on newspaper forums...
JOE IN RED DEER: I tell ya, Quebec really ticks me off most of the time, but I gotts hand it to 'em, they don't take any crap from these immigrants!
[ 21. August 2012, 19:27: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I have spent the past few months learning French. I wish to be appointed to (get a job with, in the vernacular) with the Public Service of Canada. For those without the secret decoder ring, there is a big sign on the Public Service that says "Learn French". Learn French, have career. Simples.
In order to practice my French, I read La Presse, one of the large Montreal French language newspapers daily.
Thus I can now read the PQ's diatribes and other separatist banter in the original. Yesterday there was an article expressing *shock* that Parizeau was an outright indepentiste, he was going to cut the cords with Canada, full stop. Any negotiations before than would just be an ultimatum.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Ya think, peoples?
Second, I noticed Bernard Landry (former PQ premier) saying that people who don't speak French should not be able to vote in Quebec. Language tests for voting? That is a well-known racist tactic. M. Landry sounded terrible. No English-speaking politician would be allowed to get away with that.
Two bright spots though. There is a reasonable chance Coalition Avenir Quebec may limit the PQ to a minority. Thus no separation debate. Nobody else in English Canada cares about any other issue. Second, the NDP is organizing a Quebec wing for the next provincial election. The NDP got in in the last Federal election by being social democratic and not separatist. Quebeckers loved that combination. It's great for the NDP too because it means we just have to be ourselves in French. Very honest and consistent. Easy to sell and repeatable.
For the past 40 years, Social Democrat = Separatist in Quebec. Most Quebeckers will vote for the former, they're up in the air about the latter. Given the chance to elect social democrats who are not separatists and they will go for it. The party scene in Quebec is in a great deal of flux.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
[FEDS: Ahh, no, we're not gonna give you "sovereignity".
PQ: Oh yeah? Well, then we'll just have another referendum asking for total independence!
Does the anopheles quadrimaculatus mosquito thrive in Quebec?
I ask because I just read that an important factor in prolonging the American Civil War was the lack of resistance to malaria among northern soldiers. They all got sick in the malaria infested southern states, whereas those native to the south were resistant, having survived childhood. The rough northern extent of the mosquitoes that carry malaria was the Mason-Dixon Line.
The same situation decimated British soldiers in the U.S. war of independence.
Not that the attempts of the Quebecois to escape the rest of Canada are likely to have similar results. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[ 21. August 2012, 20:05: Message edited by: Freddy ]
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Not that the attempts of the Quebecois to escape the rest of Canada are likely to have similar results.
The last significant separatist violence in Quebec was in 1970, when a band of terrorists kidnapped a Quebec cabinet minister and a British diplomat, strangling the latter with his own crucifix necklace. This was the climax of a campaign waged throughout the 1960s, which mostly involved the bombing of supposedly federalist buildings.
It all would have been pretty laughable if it hadn't involved the deaths of a few innocent people, ie. the cabinet minister and some guys unlucky enough to be in the vicinity of the bombs.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
[QB] [QUOTE] Last time this sort of thing happened, there were billboards in English Canada saying, "My Canada Includes Quebec!" Good sentiment, IMHO.
I believe that slogan was from the nationwide Charlottetown referendum, in 1992, not from a Quebec referendum.
Disagree. It was used widely beyond the brief time that the Charlottetown referendum was being considered. You just had to drive along Highway 401 toward Quebec to see that sign in multiple places, over the course of several sovereignty referendums. (Or whatever is the correct plural form of that insiduous treason)
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Is there a prize for worst coding error of the day?
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
"My Canada Includes Quebec" was a slogan during the "No" rally in 1995, especially for those making the journey to Montreal to attend.
Aside: Yes, that rally broke numerous Quebec electoral laws on fundraising, but so what? Busting Air Canada for having cheap "Unity" fares would have been a mark of pride for the accused.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Disagree. It was used widely beyond the brief time that the Charlottetown referendum was being considered. You just had to drive along Highway 401 toward Quebec to see that sign in multiple places, over the course of several sovereignty referendums. (Or whatever is the correct plural form of that insiduous treason)
I'm sure you're right about that. I stand corrected.
As an observation, though, the meaning would have been slightly different between the two contexts. During Charlottetown, the message was: "If you're someone in the rest of Canada who wants Quebec to stay, you should support the new constiutional proposals". But from what I can surmise from what you write, in the Quebec referendum it was "Hey Quebec, we really love you and want you to stay!" The latter usage doen't really commit the speaker to any particular constitutional arrangements.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Here is a clip of last night's "feisty" leader's debate; apparently, the point of a debate is to answer any question other than the one asked, and shout down the other speaker.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
"My Canada Includes Quebec" was a slogan during the "No" rally in 1995, especially for those making the journey to Montreal to attend.
Aside: Yes, that rally broke numerous Quebec electoral laws on fundraising, but so what? Busting Air Canada for having cheap "Unity" fares would have been a mark of pride for the accused.
Now that I'm doing a search, I can't find any internet references to MCIQ as a pro-Charlottetown slogan. Was I wrong about that?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Shire Dweller
Shipmate
# 16631
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Posted
Canadians. Again.
Q1: If you release the French into the wild, will you want your real flag back? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
From a British perspective, IMHO Canada has a lot of individual peculiarity because of its significant French minority.
Although geographically “nearer” than Australia the cultural connection of modern Britain with Canada seems much weaker than the connection with Australia. This seems to be because (i) less British people emigrated to Canada in the 20th century than to Australia and (ii) that Canada does not play Britain / England at sport so there is much less Canada-knowledge, for want of a better phrase.
Q2: Do 'English Canadians' feel any cultural connection with Britain? Or is it always more to the US? Or France I suppose? Or non of these?
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Right around the Wrekin
Posts: 77 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2011
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
We are as we were, British North Americans. Which explains the accent.
And take that Red Ensign away. I have a whole book at home on how the current flag came about. Starts about 1914 actually.
You can't avoid American sports. Or TV. Or newspapers.
Or Americans themselves during the summer months here.
There is still significant number of monarchists in English Canada, republicanism has never got any traction here. The Monarchy comes with the best recommendation possible: it's not American. It counterbalances all the American TV stations we get.
Canadian loyalty is and was always to British institutions, as far as we could replicate them here. For pop culture, there is the stuff from the south.
Quebeckers have even less attachment to France than English Canada does to Britain. Quebec left France's control before the French Revolution and so the French Revolution didn't touch Quebec. It is a very large gulf, larger than anything in the English world. Again, for all the bluster about politics, Quebeckers are at heart North Americans who happen to speak French, not the French in North America.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shire Dweller:
Although geographically “nearer” than Australia the cultural connection of modern Britain with Canada seems much weaker than the connection with Australia. This seems to be because (i) less British people emigrated to Canada in the 20th century than to Australia and (ii) that Canada does not play Britain / England at sport so there is much less Canada-knowledge, for want of a better phrase.
If you disconnected Canada at the 49th parallel of latitude and floated it out into the ocean somewhere, Canada would look more like Australia I suspect. It would have also curtailed American immigration to the Canadian west, which is somewhere around 20% for Oilberta in terms of origin of population.
The identification with Britain seemed to plummet sometime in the Trudeau years. We seemed to be interested in being less 'like' some other country, and more 'like' ourselves. Growing up, we sang God Save the Queen and O Canada, our passports said "A Canadian Citizen is a British Subject", our foreign affairs were called external so we could avoid calling anyone foreign. I suspect also that economic recession in the UK caused the easy travel and work over there too be tightened. We also saw the continuing waning of British economic clout, and disconnected further from what seemed to be a sinking ship of receding importance economically. We also seemed to be less worried about about Americans and being too close to them.
I like Quebec, I like the people enough to say to them 'please do what you will, but know we'd prefer to retain most of our current arrangements, and please don't do what Americans have done if you fully separate and make the border so damn difficult to cross. But please don't fully separate.'
I suspect that with enough time, immigration and demographics will change the possibilities that Que could have a referendum and win, thus the separatists have to have a go soon or give up.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Quebeckers have even less attachment to France than English Canada does to Britain. Quebec left France's control before the French Revolution and so the French Revolution didn't touch Quebec. It is a very large gulf, larger than anything in the English world. Again, for all the bluster about politics, Quebeckers are at heart North Americans who happen to speak French, not the French in North America.
Your history is right on the money. I often say, perhaps oversimpliftying, that Quebec prior to the Quiet Revolution was what France would have been like had they skipped the Revolution of 1789, but still developed basic democratic institutions. Even things like the Lower Canada Rebellion in the 1830s probably owed more inspiration to American democratic ideals than to anything coming from across the Atlantic.
That said, my impression is that today, Quebec is somewhat influenced by political and social thought in France. Friends of mine involved with the recent student protests say that they seem similar to similar movements in Europe, and, on the less enlightened end of the spectrum, the Quebec political class' foray into immigrant-baiting seems to mimic trends in France(especially with its rationale about secularism and women's equality).
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Shire Dweller:
Although geographically “nearer” than Australia the cultural connection of modern Britain with Canada seems much weaker than the connection with Australia. This seems to be because (i) less British people emigrated to Canada in the 20th century than to Australia and (ii) that Canada does not play Britain / England at sport so there is much less Canada-knowledge, for want of a better phrase.
If you disconnected Canada at the 49th parallel of latitude and floated it out into the ocean somewhere, Canada would look more like Australia I suspect. It would have also curtailed American immigration to the Canadian west, which is somewhere around 20% for Oilberta in terms of origin of population.
The identification with Britain seemed to plummet sometime in the Trudeau years. We seemed to be interested in being less 'like' some other country, and more 'like' ourselves. Growing up, we sang God Save the Queen and O Canada, our passports said "A Canadian Citizen is a British Subject", our foreign affairs were called external so we could avoid calling anyone foreign. I suspect also that economic recession in the UK caused the easy travel and work over there too be tightened. We also saw the continuing waning of British economic clout, and disconnected further from what seemed to be a sinking ship of receding importance economically. We also seemed to be less worried about about Americans and being too close to them.
I like Quebec, I like the people enough to say to them 'please do what you will, but know we'd prefer to retain most of our current arrangements, and please don't do what Americans have done if you fully separate and make the border so damn difficult to cross. But please don't fully separate.'
I suspect that with enough time, immigration and demographics will change the possibilities that Que could have a referendum and win, thus the separatists have to have a go soon or give up.
The last traditional-cohort immigration from the UK took placed in the 6-7 years after the end of WWII. There was a further bump in the 1970s and early 1980s according to Immigration stats and the Censu, but a former colleague of mine, commissioned to do a paper on this, found out that most of the UK-born or British-only-ethnic-origin folk were actually Barbadians or Jamaicans.
By the Trudeau years, the 1966 Immigration Act changes had kicked in (colour-blind points system) and there was a fairly substantial immigration from the "New Commonwealth," which had strong legal, linguistic, and political ties, but few ethnic ones.
But perhaps the key element is that the UK government, and British culture, had no real interest in Canada-- perhaps Oz got more attention. The only interest in Canada was from the Royal Family, which seemed to like its trips (I know some of those involved in the organization of royal tours, and have been given details), especially to the north. Charles, in particular, was quite taken by the diversity he encountered from the 1980s on, and liked what he saw.
As far as Québec goes, I am there frequently, and the allophones identify strongly with the place, but they do so as well with Canada. The separatists (sorry, sovereignists) however, have yet to get over their ethnocentric chip-on-the-shoulder notion of Québec identity. I think that, barring some bizarre and offensive tack by PM Harper (not impossible), the the PQ knows that it is demographically a losing game.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
But perhaps the key element is that the UK government, and British culture, had no real interest in Canada-- perhaps Oz got more attention. The only interest in Canada was from the Royal Family, which seemed to like its trips (I know some of those involved in the organization of royal tours, and have been given details), especially to the north.
It should be pointed out that, despite supposedly being less British than Australia, Canada in the modern era has never had a republican movement with anything like the popular support that the Australian one has. Even Quebec nationalists seem more concerend with battling English Canada and the federal government, rather than the Queen per se.
The PQ did recently run an ad featuring what was meant to be an unflattering visual reference to the Queen, but I think this had as much to do with Harper(who, despite being an alleged Americanizer, has been putting on the monarchial and Loyalist schtick lately), than with burning resentment against the institution itself.
Granted, in the unlikely event of Quebec declaring independence, they would likely abandon the monarchy, just as a matter of course.
The ad in question
Notice the picture of a cross when Ms. Marois talks about Quebec's "values", almost certainly meant as an anti-immigration dog-whistle, since Quebeckers are otherwise pretty irreligious.
What the ad doesn't mention is that if it weren't for the hated Conquest of 1759, the RCC in Quebec would have soon been answering to guys like Marat and Robespierre.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I worked at a French-owned manufacturing company one summer during university, and there was a French engineer there on exchange. He was interesting, and he pointed out the wide gulf between France French and Quebecois French. Metropolitan French is the bourgeois dialect of Paris, reinforced through the lycees (high schools), universities and grandes ecoles (special institutes).
Quebec French, educated, proper Quebec French is the dialect of the Royal Army officers and the priests with a Norman pronunciation, the language of the class that frankly did not survive the French Revolution in France.
It's also worth remembering that while Quebec has the Civil Code, it has happily used English criminal law since 1765 (the British got rid of French criminal law and nobody complained whatsoever), the law courts are run on British lines like the rest of Canada (the lawyers even wear gowns and tabs like every other lawyer in Canada), the entire Public Service is run on Canadian/British lines in the best Yes, Minister tradition and the National Assembly is a Westminster-style place.
Once you take out language and the Civil Code, the place starts to look very British/Canadian very quickly. And nobody in Quebec complains about this, Quebec has learned to absorb the best British/Canadian ideas and give them a French spin. The last revision of the Civil Code in 1994 was notable for its innovative sections that translated the Common Law idea of trusts (a concept that gives Civil Code lawyers the fits) into something Civil Code-compatible.
Not so sure about lack of British attention, part of my family came over from Leicester in 1912. It's just Canada never ran a "10-Pound Poms" scheme after the 1870's and we always competed directly with the United States for immigrants. British immigrants could and did settle in the US, or come to Canada and then move on to the US if they didn't like it here.
The lesser-known fact of the 10-pound Poms plans was that Australia didn't pay for return passage if you didn't like it in Australia and that passage ran at 120 pounds+, 1 pound = 4.5 dollars in those days so it was 500 dollars or so to get back to Britain if you didn't like Australia.
Further, Canadian immigration policies were never as restrictive as the White Australia policy was. White Australia, at its height in the 1930's restricted Australian immigration to UK subjects only, Oz didn't even allow other Eastern Europeans in. Canada had large-scale Eastern European immigration to the Prairies in the 1890's-1920's. Canada couldn't be as restrictive as Australia was because it would look terrible in Quebec. We limited ourselves to Asian head taxes.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
La Presse article on PQ's proposal for Quebec Citizenship
Based on a "French Language Test" and "knowledge of Quebec Culture". Applicable to Anglophone, First Nations and anybody who moves from another province of Canada.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Racist trash.
And completely contrary to Sections 3 and 6 of the Charter of Rights & Freedoms. These sections are NOT subject to the Notwithstanding Clause, if the Supreme Court strikes this abomination down, it is dead.
I would like to get a job in Montreal. Part of the attraction is living in Montreal. I like Quebec. I don't like gratuitous racist grandstanding like this.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I think Australians are rather fond of Canada, especially any time the Commonwealth Games are coming around, because we recognise the similarities as another country that is affected by both USA and UK influences resulting in a kind of hybrid.
But I would agree there are a lot of differences in precisely how those influences have played out.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
So Quebec becomes more like Europe
- intolerant
- in debt up to their eyeballs
- unable to deal with youth unemployment and student tuition fees
- protectionist
If they do the separatism thing, good luck to them. There is no Germany going to bail them out, that's for sure.
I think the ROC would do OK; the supposed conservative revolution in the ROC some people are talking about is really only about a 3 % swing to the right among people who vote. That could as easily go the other way in 2-6 years. Personally, I think Harper's attempts to make Canada permanently more conservative are doomed.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
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The latest polls have the NDP and the Tories dead even in numbers. The doom might come sooner than Stephen Harper wanted.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It's interesting to read the details since they get scant coverage down here in the United States. My understanding is in the past that previous separatist efforts failed in part because of the financial relationship with the rest of Canada.
Has the money from the Alberta Tar Sands changed this is any way?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
It should be pointed out that, despite supposedly being less British than Australia, Canada in the modern era has never had a republican movement with anything like the popular support that the Australian one has. Even Quebec nationalists seem more concerend with battling English Canada and the federal government, rather than the Queen per se.
I wonder if that is the result of Canada's proximity to the US and to the UK. Having a monarch as head of state is a big differentiator from the US, and it is relatively easy for the monarch to nip over from the UK.
For Australia, however, having a monarch means that your head of state lives on the other side of the world, and feels that much more remote. Also, we are less hung up about differentiating ourselves from the US: we can feel ethnically alone in the southern hemisphere (NZ, for this purpose, is almost a state of Australia) and so America is popular as our big English-speaking friend across the Pacific.
So perhaps these things help republicanism here to have more legs than in Canada.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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MSHB:
Very plauible observations. And historically, English Canada exists to a large extent because people were fleeing a republican revolution. Most Canadians today probably aren't thinking about that when they discuss the monarchy(and very few are now descended from Loyalists) but it still might be part of some sort of "collective memory".
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
For Australia, however, having a monarch means that your head of state lives on the other side of the world, and feels that much more remote.
Add to that the fact that the remoteness was deliberate, designed from THEIR end. I don't think it helped our relationship with the UK that we were founded as a distant dumping ground. It makes it slightly hard to want them when they specifically didn't want us.
Yes, that was all a terribly long time ago, but I think it helped shape the Australian psyche.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
One odd thing, in the movie Rogue Trader, about that guy who brought down the British financial house Barings, it is stated, I assume truthfully, that Barings was the firm that handled the Louisiana Purchase, and they apparently even had a copy of the relevant document displayed proudly in their offices. But they were a British company, which seemed strange to me.
I believe this is true. The French weren't prepared to accept payment by instalment. They wanted a lump sum in cash, so the US had to take out a mortgage to raise the capital. Through Barings. In London.
But hey, why should a simple thing like being at war (yet again) with our traditional enemy get in the way of making a profit?
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It's interesting to read the details since they get scant coverage down here in the United States. My understanding is in the past that previous separatist efforts failed in part because of the financial relationship with the rest of Canada.
Has the money from the Alberta Tar Sands changed this is any way?
I don't think that anybody in Québec outside a few specialists has noticed the Alberta Tar Sands and its financial implications in any way whatsoever.
As far as the monarchy is concerned, the Irish RC cohort did not have the same demographic imapct on Canada as it did in Oz but perhaps the overwhelming folk memory is that it is a point of differentiation from the US. That presidential model is that with which we are most familiar and for many years, the role model was not compelling. Even the words presidency and republic are not popular among republicans here, who will often talk about having an elected "governor-general." Even so, my political and academic acquaintances are puzzled by the lack of enthusiasm for having a politician as head of state-- I'm not.
That a super-super-majority (ten out of ten provinces) will be needed not only to remove the monarchy but to find a structure to replace it, is a simple fact which keeps most politicians shy of touching the topic.
Many of my former bureaucratic colleagues who worked the royal tour gig were astonished by the enthusiasm showed by non-UK and non-European origin Canadians. I attended a Vancouver event where over 2000 middle and high school kids (clear majority East and South Asian) cheered Charles to the rafters while a very learned colleague puzzled that the children of those oppressed by the Empire were so taken by him. I had to point out that they didn't see it that way--- they saw a leader who was not a politician who was interested in them and, by the way, their parents did not emigrate on the basis of imperial repression, but usually on the repression exerted by the successors of the empire. While he and I might recall the 1960s, their historical recollection was of the 1990s and their parents' stories of the 1980s.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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quote:
I don't think that anybody in Québec outside a few specialists has noticed the Alberta Tar Sands and its financial implications in any way whatsoever.
Well, the Tar Sands are shown, negatively, in that PQ ad I posted above.
Again, though, I think the current round of animosity toward the Alberta oil industry is probably connected, at least psychologically, to its association with Stephen Harper. Things might have been a bit "greener" under the Liberals, given that Harper has been more hostile to Kyoto than they were. But I'm sure the environmental damage wrought by the Tar Sands was in roughly the same ballpark as it is now. And with the same "Hey it pays the bills" attitude from the federal government.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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quote:
Even the words presidency and republic are not popular among republicans here, who will often talk about having an elected "governor-general."
Yeah, if you can't even utter the words "president" and "republic", and still have to cling to the security-blanket of "governor-general", you might as well just come out and embrace the monnarchy.
The proposal I once heard was to have the Order Of Canada elect one of their own as a Canadian head-of-state. To me, it just sounded like replacing one form of elitism with another.
I've decribed myself as a monarchist-by-default, because I think it would be a helluva lot of paperwork to abolish the Crown(the whole system of government would have to be reorganized, not to mention all the symbols and whatnot), and for very little payback in terms of actually tilting the balance of social power.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Shire Dweller
Shipmate
# 16631
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Posted
This is all very interesting from the point of a British observer.
Canadian Immigration compared to Australian Immigration and the connection with the UK
It's really interesting to hear your views on this. I agree with those who say that Canada's attitude to immigration (in not having 80 years or so of prioritising British people) in the 20th century has produced a different connection to the UK than Australia's.
The lack of a specific scheme to bring large numbers of British people to Canada meant that it was not really a 'destination of choice' for British people.
Contrasting that with Australia, there are many British people still with 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation relatives there due to the direct effects and then ongoing effects of the “10 Pound Pom”. I have relatives there.
The contrasting politics this seems to have produced is also interesting: Although Canada has (for British people) less connection than Australia, Canadian's are comparatively more pro-monarchy and even pro-British than Australians.
I suppose its that Canadians look to their British history as a positive mark of identity whereas (at least for Republicans) in Australia, their British history is much more neutral, even negative in terms of identity due to Australia repeatedly taking in immigrants who had not got on with Britain when they were there (eg Poor people, Irish people before 1922 and convicts up to about ?1850?)
Non-UK / Non-European origin Canadians view of the British Monarchy
Speculating, I think this could be a way of 2nd generation immigrants identifying specifically with what they see as Canada's culture in North America as opposed to US culture.
Sport as a connector between Canada or Australia and the UK
US Sports are clearly way more popular in Canada than British origin sports. Although from watching the 2010 Winter Olympic Ice Hockey, that seems a definitively Canadian sport rather than US sport where the Canadian team played as if Ice Hockey defines a part of real Canadian identity.
... But in terms of connection with the UK – Its Ice Hockey, and Canada seems to have a lot of Winter – Winter sports are not popular on the same scale in the UK as we don't get much winter. So the Sporting connection just doesn't seem to be there.
I personally think that playing sport against a country (with a mutual rivalry) is a key connector which is another reason why Australians and British/English people feel more 'knowledge' of each other. Eg. Excepting Football, the most important sporting rivalries for British (specifically English) people is with Australia. This is certainly mutually true in Cricket, Rugby Union, Rugby League and Cycling.
Anyway, Canadians should give up with that silly American football thing and take up a real man's game – Rugby Union. The French love it too you know...
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Right around the Wrekin
Posts: 77 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2011
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The latest polls have the NDP and the Tories dead even in numbers. The doom might come sooner than Stephen Harper wanted.
The Reform Party, of which Stephen Harper was a member, and the Conservative Party, of which he has been the only leader, have both done an efficient job at wiping out the old line Progressive Conservative and Liberal parties by first isolating them into regional party status, and then attacking them in their final region of strength.
I can foresee the Harper Conservatives concentrating in the 2015 election on a focus of wiping out the last of the Liberals, including their ghost remnant in the maritimes, and working to isolate the NDP into regional status in the province of Quebec, thereby probably ensuring that a leader like Justin Trudeau will not emerge to lead the Liberals from the ashes, phoenix style.
The battle for the soul of Quebec, when the Conservative Party tries to decimate the NDP, is probably one election removed from 2015, and will probably require a replacement for Stephen Harper at the head of the Conservative Party.
All of which is a ways removed from the provincial election to be held in Quebec in 3 weeks, wherein the provincial Liberals may well follow the federal Liberals into relative obscurity.
But who knows?
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Maybe, Loquacious Beachcomber, but maybe the NDP will pick up a few more ridings in Ontario and the Maritimes and form a government. The latest polls have showed that we would have an NDP minority propped up by the Liberals if the election were held today.
Canadian party politics is in considerable flux. We're having trouble finding a pulse from the Liberal Party of Canada.
On the monarchy, Richard Gywnne, who published a new definitive biography of Sir John A. Macdonald states that in 1867, "We're not American" was one of the few ideas that held Canada together. It still holds us together. We live right beside them, we see the good and the bad and so we try to define our own identity any way we can.
We'll steal the best ideas, like the Charter of Rights & Freedoms, and try to keep the others at bay. It's been that way forever. It's pure emotion, stubbornness and identity politics.
Besides Canada was formed in the shadow of the Union Army after the Civil War, there was the memory of 1812, Manifest Destiny, and the fact that we went to war in 1914 while the Americans stayed neutral. We've always had that fear of keeping the Americans at bay. On the other hand, Britain wanted to wash their hands of us after the US Civil War, we were too expensive to defend. The British Army withdrew in 1872, the Royal Navy left Halifax and Esquimalt (BC) in 1905. We never depended on Imperial defence to the extent Australia did with Singapore. But our embrace of an American alliance in 1940 didn't involve much American direct intervention here, so we kept our distance. Canada was not placed on Lend-Lease either.
On Australia, I love the place, it's like looking at a fun-house mirror reflection of Canada. I'd love to upgrade the Canadian constitution with a few Australian ideas, particularly the Referral Power which would solve a number of division of powers debates in Canada easily. Trade you the Charter of Rights & Freedoms for the Referral Power, eh?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Don't forget the Fenians, SPK; Canada's confederation movement leading to 1867 was partly fueled by fear of the Fenian as bogeyman.
We still use a bogeyman from time to time to hold us together; sometimes, the bogeyman of free trade, sometimes, the bogeyman of separatists, sometimes, it has even been the bogeyman of the CCF/NDP hordes waiting to kick down the doors and turn us all into mindless Marxists! Under Paul Martin's negative advertising, the bogeyman was roaming gangs of armed thugs running loose under a Conservative governemnt obsessed with owning nucular-powered battleships.
The fact that none of those things ever actually threatened our very existence as strongly as we may have come to believe does not mean the use of a bogeyman will not colour negative advertising in the future, so predicting the outcome of a federal election three years in the future based on today's opinion polls is a bit of a mug's game, IMO.
Who do you think will win Quebec's election 3 weeks from now?
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Good point about the Fenians, though I skipped over them for brevity. For non-Canadians, See here.
They really were Fathers of Confederation.
I think the PQ will win the Quebec election, though it will probably be a minority. I can live with a PQ minority, it won't be able to talk about Separation with its usual swagger. It would be a neutered PQ and be just another left-wing government. The rest of Canada would promptly go back to sleep.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
...It's pure emotion, stubbornness and identity politics.
And is all sounds like rather insulting snobbery to those of us down south.
[ 22. August 2012, 19:16: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Manifest Destiny and William Seward who thought we'd fall in to the "Magic Circle of the Union" like ripe fruit (hence the Ripe Fruit Doctrine) sounded just as bad up north.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Manifest Destiny and William Seward who thought we'd fall in to the "Magic Circle of the Union" like ripe fruit (hence the Ripe Fruit Doctrine) sounded just as bad up north.
Tiresome nationalism can be just another thing Americans and Canadians have in common, if one of the more regrettable ones.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
If you want to listen to tiresome nationalism to a manifest degree, try attending a nightime lighting ceremony at Mt. Rushmore.
"Well, of course, we amazing Americans totally invented the concept of freedom, and no other nation in history has ever experienced it..."
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Silver Faux, do you not know what "in common" means? Then why do you think you are informing me of how tiresome American nationalism can be?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
No one really cares out west. Too busy trying to become more the USA it seems.
I'll personally be waving a Doug and shouting "Free Cascadia!" this weekend with some fine soccer-loving folks from Vancouver, BC.
[ 23. August 2012, 00:35: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
...It's pure emotion, stubbornness and identity politics.
And is all sounds like rather insulting snobbery to those of us down south.
It is indeed unfortunate that our southern neighbours are unable to benefit by the joys of living in the True North, nor from the spiritual advantages of flourishing under the benign gaze of an anointed sovereign.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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