Ship of Fools: Am I Being Unchristan??

Thread: Am I Being Unchristan?? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

A question to the more learned of our Ship.

The guy I work for (a sole trader) three days a week has been diagnosed with Emphysema as well as another heart condition just yestreday. He had a double bypass and a heart valve replacement two years ago. He has been a heavy smoker and still likes a drop or two of red as well as a beer or three.

My problem with this is that I am unable to uphold him with prayer. Usually when I hear bad news I pray for that person and their family etc. With him I cannot bring myself to do so. Perhaps deep down its because he has already had one chance and now it seems he will get a second.

Whilst I do not dislike him and we get on rather well, he is not on the 'come to dinner/Chrissy card' list and is one of the 'coldest',unpersonable and ungrateful persons I have meet.

Any comments most appreciated.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

It may be that the situation calls for you to figure out what you can pray for with regard to him.

However, it would not hurt for you to try to also figure out why you cannot bring yourself to pray for him as you were able to before. That way, you can figure out for yourself whether or not you are being un-Christian. And if you determine that you are being un-Christian, maybe you could switch to praying for help for yourself. For myself, I find that the only kind of prayer that I can count on succeeding (at least to some degree) is prayer for help with my own attitude. Although, of course, YMMV.

In any case, I think your question is an important one for you to find an answer to - may you find an answer that helps you in your Christian journey. [Votive]

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
With him I cannot bring myself to do so. Perhaps deep down its because he has already had one chance and now it seems he will get a second.

I assume you mean that he had one chance to quit the smokes and tobacco, didn't take it, and now might get another chance.

However, it seems to me that you have two objections to him. The second being...

quote:
Whilst I do not dislike him and we get on rather well, he is not on the 'come to dinner/Chrissy card' list and is one of the 'coldest',unpersonable and ungrateful persons I have meet.

It seems to me that if, and I'm saying if, you would feel obligated to pray for him in the face of your first objections(the smokes, the booze), I don't think the fact that he's also cold and ungrateful should have anything to do with it.

Respectfully, it sounds like you might be on a bit of a fishing expedition, looking for an excuse not to pray for him. Sorta like "Uh yeah, he's the cause of his own health problems. And, if that doesn't convince you, uhh, he's cold and impersonal as well".

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Dennis the Menace:

quote:
Am I Being Unchristan??

In one sense, yes, since ideally we probably ought to pray for good outcomes (in God's terms) in the lives of all people. In another, no, because we all fall short of the glory of God but we are still Christians. So "falling short" doesn't negate our Christianity- it just tarnishes it a bit.

It sounds like you are mainly having trouble with yourself. In your shoes, every day I'd briefly pray for God's will to be done in your acquaintance's life. That way you can remain fairly neutral about your own feelings until you sort them out. Then I'd have a long chat with the Godhead about gentling your own heart. Why do you want this person to suffer? Can you or anyone earn God's grace by living right? How pleasant and sensible does a person have to be to earn your prayers? The fact that you recognize that this might be a problem in your spiritual life is a great step forward. [Overused]

Despite all this person's shortcomings, perhaps his situation has something to offer you.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

Dennis the Menace, there is much good perception and advice on this thread already so far, and I particularly like Lyda*Rose's words. In fact, if anything, what follows is just a rehashing of what she said.

As I read your post, I found myself able to relate in some ways to your situation. I certainly know what it feels like to pray for somebody for whom you are having genuine difficulty praying, although my circumstances were quite different. In my case, it took a long period of healing but I would like to share some quotations that particularly helped me as I tried very hard, often without success, to apply them to the situation.

The first is from one of the desert fathers:

quote:
If a man wants God to hear his prayer quickly, then before he prays for anything else - even his own soul - when he stands and stretches out his hands towards God, he must pray with all his heart for his enemies. Through this action God will hear everything that he asks.'
- Abba Zeno

I realise that you do not view this man as your enemy but I think that some of the feelings that act as barriers are perhaps the same. It takes a lot to get past those feelings and realise that our prayer is not related to our perception of others' worthiness. It can be even more difficult when we feel the way we do because of something the person has done and may still be doing because we cannot pacify ourselves with the thought that the offending action is in the past and there has since been a change of heart. Yet, whether or not this has happened, there is something about recognising the grace of God as something not subject to our passions that can be very difficult but very humbling at the same time. It took me nearly a year to reach the point of true forgiveness, and in that time I really struggled to apply the principle of Father Zeno's words. Sometimes I still slip, but overall I think that it is worth it. It gives us a better perspective of our own thoughts and feelings in the light of God's magnitude, and it can be very sobering.

The other two quotations that I focus on to try to keep me on track with various major and minor situations like this are below.

quote:
'Never confuse the person, formed in the image of God, with the evil that is in him: because evil is but a chance misfortune, an illness, a devilish attack. But the very essence of the person is the image of God, and this remains in him despite every disfigurement.'
- St John of Kronstadt

'Fire and water do not mix, neither can you mix judgement of others with the desire to repent. Even if a man commit a sin before you at the very moment of his death, pass no judgement because the judgement of God is hidden from men. It has happened that men have sinned immensely in the open but have done greater deeds in secret, so that those who would disparage them have been fooled, with smoke instead of sunlight in their eyes.'
- St John Climacus

Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :

Others have been relatively gentle, I'll sharpen it a bit: given that we are ALL fallen sinners who are only deserving of God's condemnation, any claim to be better than X and so not to pray for them seems to reflect a lack of awareness of how fallen I am. We ALL need God's grace, who am I to deny it to someone. This parable seems to speak to this:

quote:
23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Mt 18:23-35

Easy? Of course not. But that doesn't mean it's not what Jesus expects.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Can I make the following quick suggestions?

1. Force yourself to pray for him. It doesn't matter what you feel like.

2. Get away from the idea that it's a question of 'upholding him in prayer'. That's revspeak. Pray for what you think he really needs.

3. As everyone has pointed out, there's an issue in your spirit for you to address. God is a God of truth, not lies, evasions or politeness. He is also merciful, and wants nothing better for his children that their own good. He knows who you really are. You don't need to pretend to be the holy person you feel you ought to be, or that you'd like church members to think you are. In your own prayer, be honest. Spell out to God how you feel about your employer, and ask him to help you, and show you what you need to see.

4. I don't know anything about your or his circumstances. But it may be you are the only person he knows who might pray for him. And that is something you can do, even though you might not feel like it, and even though as a boss, you might find him a boorish slob. After all, reluctant though this thought might be, he is your neighbour.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

There was recently an ad campaign around here, where posters and bus-stop ads popped up with photographs of individuals and the words, "Obnoxious people deserve to die" or "Cat lovers deserve to die." After a couple of weeks, they were replaced with identical posters with the added text, "...if they smoke" and some smaller text about our societal prejudice that if smokers get cancer, they deserve it.

That's actually a very human response - in part, because when something horrible happens to another person, it disrupts our basic faith in the world, and finding a reason why the horrible thing happened to the other person restores our sense that the world does make sense. If Mr. Boss got cancer because he smoked, then if I don't smoke, I (probably) won't get cancer. It distances us from the possibility of a tragedy befalling us, and gives us a sense of control over our own lives.

Turns out many smokers don't get cancer, or heart disease, or whatever, and not all sufferers of lung cancer were smokers. Life isn't fair.

But even more important - why should someone who smokes, even knowing it's bad for them, deserve to suffer cancer or heart disease? Most of us ignore health risks all the time. Why single out anyone or any group to bear the blame for the results of risky behavior?

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

I'm not sure what 'Unchristian' means since Christians are capable of the same range of behaviour and attitudes as other people. Maybe you mean 'Am I being Christlike?'

I don't really understand either of your blocks to prayer in rational terms, but they both seem to come down to being undeserving of prayer - he can be seen to have caused his own illness through smoking, and he is not a personality you find attractive (though you still get on well with him?).

Does Christ ration out his love and care to us on the basis of how much we deserve them? I would say definitely not, in fact his whole earthly ministry was aimed at those who were considered sinners - through choice - by the respectable religious people in his society.

He also had quite a lot to say about not judging others more harshly than ourselves.

We are called to love our neighbours - those who God puts us nearest to - not the most deserving people we know, or the nicest people we know etc. But this can be quite tough as you are discovering.

The best prayer I've found in circumstances like this goes something like 'I know I should want to pray for him but I don't want to pray for him, but I'm praying for him anyway'.

And whoever advised you against 'upholding in prayer' is right. It's not up to you to uphold him. God can use the puniest and most reluctant prayer, he's not totting it all up on a prayer-ometer and deciding who gets help on the basis of how much 'good quality' prayer they're getting.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Not praying for someone is normal. Praying for someone is special and exceptional. Pray for those you can pray for, push your limits a little, and those you cannot pray for leave to God.

If he specifically asks you to pray for him, then do so, but I don't think this is the issue here. Don't sweat it.

Is it unchristian? No. Unchristian is praying for him to die early because of his mistakes. Unchristian is condemning him because he still smokes and drinks.

Seriously, what is it with this guilt thing?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Not praying for someone is normal. Praying for someone is special and exceptional. Pray for those you can pray for, push your limits a little, and those you cannot pray for leave to God.

If he specifically asks you to pray for him, then do so, but I don't think this is the issue here. Don't sweat it.

Is it unchristian? No. Unchristian is praying for him to die early because of his mistakes. Unchristian is condemning him because he still smokes and drinks.

Seriously, what is it with this guilt thing?

I'm a long way from being learned but here goes.

That guilt thing is normal too. The legalism and command aspects of our faith and to some extent social conditioning make us feel guilt while the Grace aspect of faith is there to remove it.

Dennis the Menace: It looks like your employer is so work-directed that it may never have occurred to him to relate to people, especially those working for him. I'd suggest he needs better relationships, especially now. Could you possibly pray for yourself, to relate better to him? That might provide a bridge to take you from where you are to a state in which you can pray for him and his family.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Saint Clive pointed out that prayer is not the same as feeling prayerful. It is great if you can feel some kind of fellowship with this guy, but not feeling that is no impediment to asking God to help and heal him.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I imagine Dennis the Menace knows the anti-prayerful attitude he describes is unchristian or he wouldn't have opened this thread.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

The idea that it's somehow wrong to pray if one's feelings don't align with what one is praying seems to me more Kantian than Christian. Feelings are often irrational and unreliable things.

Bottom line: No one -- NO ONE, not even you, not even the greatest saint in all Christendom, deserves God's grace. And no one can out-sin God's grace.

Even if your prayer for this person is to simply "offer him up" without further elaboration because you can't find any charitable words, that is, IMHO, the Christian thing to do.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis the Menace:
Usually when I hear bad news I pray for that person and their family etc. With him I cannot bring myself to do so. Perhaps deep down its because he has already had one chance and now it seems he will get a second.

1. Ask God what if anything God wants you to pray for him. Often God's goals/interests are a bit different than what we initially see. For example maybe God wants you to pray for him to know he is loved (by God), not for more length of physical years.

Or sometimes when I'm blocked about someone, there's a different person or problem I really need to be praying for. We all have limited time and need to put it where God wants us to focus.

2. Ask God to help you see what in you is causing a negative attitude about praying for him. A lot of the work God does through prayer is in the one praying. [Smile]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Can I make the following quick suggestions?

1. Force yourself to pray for him. It doesn't matter what you feel like.

I want to echo what Enoch and Lutheranchik have said. When you say "I can't bring myself to pray for him" I'm pretty sure you don't mean some thought police is holding a gun to your head preventing you. So what you really mean is "I don't feel like praying for him" or "I can't summon up warm or sympathetic feelings for him". And we have been led to believe that that's what "love" is-- having some warm, mushy feelings for someone. We've been led to believe that praying for someone we find annoying, cold, or irritating is "hypocritical". And so we hold off praying until we "feel" like it, thinking that's doing the "loving" thing.

It's not. When Scripture talks about "love" it almost always is talking about actions, not feelings. We are commanded to love-- then given examples like the Good Samaritan where we aren't told a whole lot about his feelings. We are told what he did-- he saw, he stopped, he provided aid. That is the definition of "love". I suspect the Samaritan found the injured Jew on the side of the road just as annoying, irritating, and cold as you find your co-worker. I suspect he didn't "feel" like helping. But he did-- and Jesus called that "love".

So just do it. Do it being honest about your feelings (the Psalms are a good example). Tell God you find this guy cold and irritating. Tell God he doesn't deserve a 3rd chance. But pray for him anyway, even if it means praying "God, please help this cold-hearted, undeserving son-of-a-b****".

Sometimes feelings follow actions, so in time your heart may change. Or not. It doesn't really matter. Just love. Pray.

[ 08. September 2012, 15:34: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I imagine Dennis the Menace knows the anti-prayerful attitude he describes is unchristian or he wouldn't have opened this thread.

I disagree. I think he feels uncomfortable with it, and wants help to understand what he should do. Just because it is uncomfortable, doesn't mean it is wrong.

Posted by WhateverTheySay (# 16598) on :

There are a number of people who I know that I could not pray for, even if something happened to them. Frustration with somebody's lifestyle choices can definitely make it difficult for us to pray for that person. It is exactly that that causes my difficulty in praying for certain people.

But I feel that it is better not to pray for somebody than to pray that the person concerned will come to harm.

Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

If he specifically asks you to pray for him, then do so, but I don't think this is the issue here. Don't sweat it.

Dennis the Menace: It looks like your employer is so work-directed that it may never have occurred to him to relate to people, especially those working for him. I'd suggest he needs better relationships, especially now. Could you possibly pray for yourself, to relate better to him? That might provide a bridge to take you from where you are to a state in which you can pray for him and his family. [/QB]

I doubt he would as me to pray for him as he has nothing to do with the church.

You have hit the nail right on the head. For a person in his position he doesn't realte to people or the public very well. As far as the family goes he is estranged from his wife (but sees her on a regular basis!!)has one son and two fostered sons. All of which, the natural one to a lesser extent, 'use' him and I think feel this the source of some of his problems.

Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WhateverTheySay:
There are a number of people who I know that I could not pray for, even if something happened to them. Frustration with somebody's lifestyle choices can definitely make it difficult for us to pray for that person. It is exactly that that causes my difficulty in praying for certain people.

But I feel that it is better not to pray for somebody than to pray that the person concerned will come to harm.

I don't mean him any harm and certainly would not pray in that way. Quite the opposite, if anything happens to him I will be either out of a job or 'promoted' to running the business fulltime.

Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I imagine Dennis the Menace knows the anti-prayerful attitude he describes is unchristian or he wouldn't have opened this thread.
I disagree. I think he feels uncomfortable with it, and wants help to understand what he should do. Just because it is uncomfortable, doesn't mean it is wrong.

Yes, that's how I feel and thanks for your thoughts, SC.

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

Hate someone? Pray for them for 2 weeks - pray that they will be blessed with everything you'd want for yourself. If you don't feel better/different after 2 weeks, do it for another 2 weeks. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
Am I Being Unchristan?

I can't tell you without being un-Christian.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Hate someone? Pray for them for 2 weeks - pray that they will be blessed with everything you'd want for yourself. If you don't feel better/different after 2 weeks, do it for another 2 weeks. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Excellent advice. Prayer is not only for the person being prayed for, but it has a tendency to change the prayer as well. Not to mention I'm very glad God doesn't view us in the same light we often view others, because truth be told we all have issues, problems, etc. that are of our own creation.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Dennis, I'm going to suggest that you do with God exactly what you just did with the Ship--open a thread about it. Can't pray, don't want to pray, uncomfortable with praying, not sure which or all of the above is true? Say that to God. Pissed off at the guy, at his son, at all of them? Say that too. Want to ignore the whole mess? Say that too.

A lot of my prayers lately start out with me glumping down on to the carpet in my dark little corner, putting on my crabby face, and saying, "Okay, Lord. I'm here." (with the clear subtext of "Wotcha gonna do about it, hey?") The response I get varies (laughter is one of them). But just showing up is something.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

Lamb chopped's prayer sounds like roughly 50% of the psalms...

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis the Menace:
For a person in his position he doesn't realte to people or the public very well. As far as the family goes he is estranged from his wife (but sees her on a regular basis!!)has one son and two fostered sons. All of which, the natural one to a lesser extent, 'use' him and I think feel this the source of some of his problems.

You could pray for that, too (along with his health issues). It sounds like he is probably not a very happy person.

I think that if you just tell God what you've been saying here--"God, I don't like this person at all, and I feel nothing positive about him, but please do something for his bad situation"--then that is a start. You could also talk to God about your feelings about this person--maybe ask Him to help you pray for him. Maybe, too, he has pain and fear that he doesn't want to let people see. At worst you could pray for "that hurting person, whom I know as X."

Perhaps, too, thinking about what he might have been like over the course of his life, and that who knows how he got to be the person he is today, and praying for whoever the real person is behind those eyes (that God sees and that we don't) might help.

Hopefully something in here is helpful. Hugs! [Smile]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Echoing some of what is now being posted, but perhaps pushing it even a little further... a lot of prayer is what they call 'mindfulness' these days I think. Becoming aware of your thoughts and feelings. Whomever God may be is supposed to be aware omnisciently of what's going on more crisply and more clearly than you including what's inside of you, i.e., what you think and feel and are motivated to do or not. That means you're working more on yourself with prayer, and not working on God**.

**Well for the most part. My personal working on God involves a lot of inner turmoil, uncharitable thoughts and not very nice language.

Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

Thanks to everyone for their replies, they are much appreciated. Things are now in a much better perspective. The sermon yesterday was on 'neighbours' although it was directed at our religious neighbours, the same priciples applied and I am now able to deal with this situation.

Thanks again.

DtM

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Dennis, would it help to consider the question of why this man smoked?

I have never smoked, but AIUI nicotine is tranquilizing. If he smoked to ease stress, this was unwise self-medication, but it is entirely understandable.

Just a thought.

Moo

Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Dennis, would it help to consider the question of why this man smoked?

I have never smoked, but AIUI nicotine is tranquilizing. If he smoked to ease stress, this was unwise self-medication, but it is entirely understandable.

Just a thought.

Moo

He has not smoked since I have known him, almost 7 years. Seems he did so some years ago.

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