|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Anglican and Catholic Cathedral
|
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
|
Posted
This was reported in the paper today regarding the two earthquake damaged Cathedrals in Christchurch.
In the past I have been a Regular* at the Anglican Cathedral but have lost touch with what is going on there now. This article surprised me, and I am still thinking about the ramifications.
At present there is a case before the High Court as to whether the Anglican Church can demolish the Cathedral, but vey little (that I have read) has been said about the Catholic Cathedral- which is architecturally a building of greater international significance.
So, I was wondering what Shipmates think of the idea of a shared Cathedral.
* It's not a parish so people who attend often are called Regulars), rather than parishioners.
--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
|
Posted
It's one of those putting the cart before the horse things like shared communion. Such things should be a sign of unity achieved not unity desired. I have visited a lot of Catholic Cathedrals, especially in Europe, and Anglican and Lutheran ones which were formerly Catholic. It strikes me that they show very different conceptions about how we should use Sacred Space. Particularly the use of silence and images.
The key stumbling blocks really, in a physical sense seem to me to be the presence of crucifixes and the Reserved Sacrament. Crosses proliferate in Protestant Cathedrals but seldom with the Corpus of our Lord on them and in Catholic ones seldom without it. These things matter. Also where the sacrament is reserved one would need two tabernacles, one for Anglicans and one for Catholics, because we believe different things about the Sacrament and the validity or otherwise of consecration and those charged with the consecrating. This would highlight division and not unity.
Having said all this if the new model for Catholic Cathedrals is the warehouse like Clifton Cathedral in Bristol then it could be shared by anyone.
--------------------
My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
If given the green light, it would bring the Catholics and Anglicans together under the same cathedral roof for the first time in the world since the churches split in the 16th century.
Except it wouldn't. The cathedral in the German city of Bautzen has been shared between Catholics and Protestants since the mid-16th century, an arrangement which apparently isn't that unusual in Germany. I vaguely remember visiting one such church where the building was literally split in half, so was only a 'shared space' in a limited sense.
[ 09. September 2012, 07:20: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
Sorry....I misread the article as saying that it
would be the first time that Catholics and Protestants had shared a cathedral, rather than Catholics and Anglicans. My mistake.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
Notwithstanding the examples of simultanea to wich Yerevan alludes, I should think this idea has a vanishingly small chance of getting off the ground. I simply can't see the Catholic Church swallowing it. The implicit recognition of Anglican claims that it would involve might be swallowed by Catholics in Wellington, or even in NZ more widely but it hasn't a snowball's chance in Hell of meeting with the approval of the Holy See.
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Maybe I'm just a tiresome old sectarian, but I would prefer the Anglicans rebuild their own cathedral anyway.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
There are plenty of churches shared by Anglican and Roman Catholic congregations, and there are buildings that have been constructed with the intent of serving both communities. When I was at university the Chaplaincy centre had separate Anglican and Roman Catholic chapels but with a very clear architectural sharing of space and community. Perhaps a creative architect could design a building with a great deal of shared space, but with distinct sanctuaries that would be identifiably Anglican or Roman Catholic that would be the Cathedral as far as the writ of the Bishop was concerned. Managing the shared space would take some generosity of spirit and good will, but I would hope even the church could manage that.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
... The key stumbling blocks really, in a physical sense seem to me to be the presence of crucifixes and the Reserved Sacrament. Crosses proliferate in Protestant Cathedrals but seldom with the Corpus of our Lord on them and in Catholic ones seldom without it. These things matter. Also where the sacrament is reserved one would need two tabernacles, one for Anglicans and one for Catholics, because we believe different things about the Sacrament and the validity or otherwise of consecration and those charged with the consecrating. This would highlight division and not unity.
Fortunately, it is quite inaccurate to say that "Protestant" cathedrals, except for the one on Sydney, NSW, and perhaps several in Ireland do not have or are opposed to crucifixes. Many Anglican cathedrals have crucifixes somewhere in the building, most notably above the behind the pulpit or at a devotional side altar. In addition, all "Protestant" cathedrals of the Church of Sweden and Finland have crucifixes in them.
Roman Catholic canons and rubrics direct the Blessed Sacrament to be reserved in a side chapel or special place away from the main altar of any cathedral. Reservation away from the main altar has been a constant practice for many centuries. That said, two reservation places in one cathedral would not be appropriate for Roman Catholics. Anglicans have more flexible rules that could include reservation in a chapel or devotional spot or even a sacristy separate and apart from the main church.
These issues present problems which are
not insoluble.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Shared spaces between Anglicans and Catholics tend to be the result of secular necessity rather than ecumenism. This is certainly the case with German and French Simultankirche and most shared spaces in settings like universities.
With the Anglican Communion in the process of going kablooey (though not in NZ so far as I know), I think maintaining a distinct Anglican identity is far more important than feel good ecumenical gestures.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
The idea of a shared worship space is probably too tricky to get around, but as an alternative, perhaps they should look into shared programming space with a separate cathedral on either end.
There is a lot one could do with a common fellowship hall in the middle, and even liturgical actions such as the blessing of palms could take place there.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
|
Posted
Christ the Cornerstone in Milton Keynes is an ecumenical church in the city centre.
As far as I am aware the congregations worship separately but in the same space.
Seems to work well.
--------------------
"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
|
Posted
quote:
Shared spaces between Anglicans and Catholics tend to be the result of secular necessity rather than ecumenism.
Sometimes 'secular necessity' or force majeure is the only practical way of over coming a log jam, or getting out of the trees to see the wood.
It's amazing what things that 'really matter' turn out not to actually matter so much, or even at all, once people have had the chance to experience life outside their bubbles, and yet still find that the things that really do matter remain, or are even seen and understood more clearly.
In rural areas of NZ there has long been a practice of 'joining together' or at least sharing the facilities as small town populations have had to get to grips with giving up church buildings that were built in optimistic expectations of great things, only to find they were never even nearly filled and now with not nearly enough bodies to keep the roof on.
So, Christchurch and it's cathedrals?---never say never.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
Also where the sacrament is reserved one would need two tabernacles, one for Anglicans and one for Catholics, because we believe different things about the Sacrament and the validity or otherwise of consecration and those charged with the consecrating. This would highlight division and not unity.
This statement is only partly correct, which also necessitates that there is more to be said.
There is a significant proportion of Anglicans who hold firmly to the Real Presence in the Sacrament, uniting them with their RC brethren. Hence why there has been the agreed ARCIC statements on the sacraments.
Of course, there are also other Anglicans who would flatly deny the Real Presence, holding to the Protestant notion of it being a memorial in line with Cranmerian theology post 1549.
The joys and problems with via media .
As an Anglican who has worshipped in Catholic churches and been welcomed to participate in the Sacrmament (even assisting in the liturgy), as well as enjoying the full and active participation of RC clergy at Anglican eucharists and other services, I have no qualms about having a joint worship space, kneeling to the sacrament in whic hever place, and celebrating that we have more in common than we do in difference.
Talking with RC priests and religious, both here in Oz and elsewhere, they are more often than not supportive of biblical imperatives than those which are 'abberations' (the word used by the superior of one order here in Austrralia) of original intent now being nuanced by the Holy See.
"Father, may they be one as you and I are one."
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
There has been for over 40 years a joint Anglican/RC church in Winnipeg. Different altars -- they wheel them in and out as required -- but otherwise the same worship space.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
The Winnipeg case (S Chad's, I think?) was authorized personally by Paul VI on Cardinal Flahiff's request. I think it was intended to be a pilot, in those far-off days.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
There has been for over 40 years a joint Anglican/RC church in Winnipeg. Different altars -- they wheel them in and out as required -- but otherwise the same worship space.
John
Different altars?? WTF?
This church evidently even has a joint tabernacle. (as incidentally do many hospital chapels).
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
There has been for over 40 years a joint Anglican/RC church in Winnipeg. Different altars -- they wheel them in and out as required -- but otherwise the same worship space.
John
Different altars?? WTF?
Augustine is right that the (Anglican) parish is St. Chad's.
Separate altars because the RCs cannot allow the Anglicans to celebrate the eucharist on the altar stone in their altar. So each lot has a wooden altar (on wheels, perhaps) and they get wheeled in and out as appropriate (how like the cathedral in Sydney, come to think of it, though probably the Anglicans and RCs in the Assiniboina Christian Centre, as they call it, have more in common than either would with the good folk who follow Peter Jensen).
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Separate altars because the RCs cannot allow the Anglicans to celebrate the eucharist on the altar stone in their altar.
Is that 'cannot' as in 'forbidden by canon law', or 'these particular RCs think it inappropriate'? There are, as links above have shown, several instances of Catholics and Anglicans sharing churches, including altars, with no problems. And Anglicans, especially in continental Europe, have been allowed to celebrate at Catholic altars. Didn't +Rowan do so in Rome?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
Never gonna happen.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
What's never gonna happen? If you mean what I refer to above, in many places it already is happening. And will continue.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Separate altars because the RCs cannot allow the Anglicans to celebrate the eucharist on the altar stone in their altar.
Is that 'cannot' as in 'forbidden by canon law', or 'these particular RCs think it inappropriate'? There are, as links above have shown, several instances of Catholics and Anglicans sharing churches, including altars, with no problems. And Anglicans, especially in continental Europe, have been allowed to celebrate at Catholic altars. Didn't +Rowan do so in Rome?
Cannot, because (at the time) it was said canon law forbade it.
I've known anglicans to celebrate at RC altars many times, but these were altars that did not incorporate an altar stone with its relics.
Clearly I have no idea about other experiences.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What's never gonna happen? If you mean what I refer to above, in many places it already is happening. And will continue.
There will not be a shared cathedral in Christchurch. Or anywhere else for that matter.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
But as someone else has already pointed out there has been a shared cathedral in Bautzen in Germany for centuries.
At the time of the Reformation the Catholics managed to hold on to the choir of the church and the Lutherans got the nave.
For a long time now when there were big ceremonies the Catholics would use the whole of the church and the separation walls and then fences between the two parts have gradually come down. The last time I was there about ten years ago there was virtually no separation in the building,though admittedly the choir is still under the control of Catholioc authorities and the nave under control of Lutheran authorities.
The building is rarely used for Catholic episcopal functions nowadays as there are proper Catholic dioceses with episcopal seats in Dresden and Goerlitz.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
CL
Shipmate
# 16145
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
But as someone else has already pointed out there has been a shared cathedral in Bautzen in Germany for centuries.
At the time of the Reformation the Catholics managed to hold on to the choir of the church and the Lutherans got the nave.
For a long time now when there were big ceremonies the Catholics would use the whole of the church and the separation walls and then fences between the two parts have gradually come down. The last time I was there about ten years ago there was virtually no separation in the building,though admittedly the choir is still under the control of Catholioc authorities and the nave under control of Lutheran authorities.
The building is rarely used for Catholic episcopal functions nowadays as there are proper Catholic dioceses with episcopal seats in Dresden and Goerlitz.
Germany is an exception due the particularly messy peace settlements from the Schmalkaldic War through to the Treaty of Westphalia, designed with uneven success to end religious strife in the Empire. There is no warrant for such things nowadays.
--------------------
"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Separate altars because the RCs cannot allow the Anglicans to celebrate the eucharist on the altar stone in their altar.
Is that 'cannot' as in 'forbidden by canon law', or 'these particular RCs think it inappropriate'? There are, as links above have shown, several instances of Catholics and Anglicans sharing churches, including altars, with no problems. And Anglicans, especially in continental Europe, have been allowed to celebrate at Catholic altars. Didn't +Rowan do so in Rome?
Yes, on Sunday, 26 November 2006, Archbishop Rowan Williams celebrated a "Festival Mass" of Christ the King, with full choir, ministers, vestments, lights and incense on the consecrated altar of the Dominican Basilica of Santa Sabina, Rome. For this Mass Archbishop Rowan had the explicit invitation and permission of Pope Benedict XVI, no question. There are plenty of photographs of the Mass which were taken at the time. Archbishop Rowan was also given Roman permission for the honor of carrying his crozier, as well as the usual mitre and pontifical vestments.
At this Mass, representing the Holy See was Cardinal Kasper's deputy, Bishop Brian Farrell, LC, vested in choir dress. Canadian Fr Donald Bolen, an official at the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity with responsibility for the Reformed churches, proclaimed the Gospel at the Mass after having received the Archbishop Rowan's blessing.
Photos of +Rowan in full swing with the thurible at the altar and with his staff at the throne during Mass in Santa Sabina, Rome.
As my father used to say, "Always go to the top if you want to bend the lower level rules."
*
[ 14. September 2012, 05:31: Message edited by: Mr. Rob ]
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
How curious that +++BXVI allowed ++Rowan- whose orders he does not, we take it, recognise- to wear his mitre in a Roman basilica, while ++ Rowan would not allow ++ KJ Schori,- whose orders he does, we take it, recognise- to wear her mitre in a CofE Cathedral.
I hope that the irony was not lost on ++Rowan, beneath whose many wonderful qualities there is, alas, sometimes a spine of jelly.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Well, if one was legalistic (moi???) one might argue that the Pope generously loaned the basilica to +Rowan for the occasion, and that therefore it became a de facto Anglican church for the duration of the liturgy. +BXVI would then have no jurisdiction over what people wore or did at that event.
Whereas +KJS was preaching at an Anglican service in an Anglican cathedral and so was under the jurisdiction of the Church of England. Which does not recognise female episcopal orders; hence +Rowan was not being hypocritical.
Doesn't make it right though. But maybe he guessed an outcry would follow if a woman bishop was seen to function as such in a C of E cathedral. Of course, if he had a spine he could confront such an outcry with a good conscience. Maybe he will undergo a reverse spineoctomy when he goes to Cambridge.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
St Albans Abbey in the UK belongs to the City rather than to the Church. In addition to usual Church of England clergy and services, there is an Ecumenical chaplaincy. This includes Roman and Orthodox Catholics, Free Church and Lutherans (German language services). All of these groups hold services at different times of the month, but I’ve no idea how they’ve worked out the practicalities. Sundays, High Days and Holidays and the rest of the week belong to the Anglicans.
It’s doable – as St Albans proves. But getting to the point where everyone was willing to share will probably take a lot of discussion, prayer and compromises on all sides. IMO, it would be a fantastic witness, but I appreciate that not everyone will see it that way.
Tubbs
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
