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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cabinet Minister and Policeman
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Major Disaster
Shipmate
# 13229
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Posted
It is quite possible that I do not understand the important questions in this news story which has been running for three days now.
The outrage, implicit and invoked, in the reports, is directed against the Government Chief Whip, and all sympathy seems to be with a humble policeman who was on duty, and was apparently verbally abused for doing his job.
But it seems to me that gates to prevent unauthorised access by vehicles, could be opened for a Cabinet Minister, who is going about his business, and is certainly authorised to pass out of the security of Downing Street into the public thoroughfare of Whitehall. I see no explanation as to the misunderstanding of why the policeman would not open the gate when asked to do so; 'policy' was the reason given, but whose policy is not explained. Why was the policeman at the gate at all, if he was not there to open and close it for authorised vehicles?. Why is a public servant (a policeman) of low rank, dictating to a Government Minister what the Minister must do because of a policy regarding the security gates, which was unknown to the Cabinet Minister? Is the image of the police so high in the public view, and a Government Minister so lowly, that "pleb" is a mortally offensive epithet (if it was used at all) and is cause to hound the minister to resign?
If the media, and the Opposition parties show no sense of proportion in such a trivial question, it is no wonder that there is a deep problem within our western society regarding the respect due to all persons, as human beings, whether they be Royal Princesses, members of the Government (titled Right Honourable!), football fans at Hillsborough, or humble newspaper sellers who get in the way of a policeman's anger at a demonstration. Public Servants can be proud in their service. But they serve; they should not dictate. Otherwise we can forgo the remnants of democratic forms, and respect, which have been left to us by increasingly restrictive legislation.
Forgive my rant. I had nowhere else to express my disgust.
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O Beata Solitudo! Sola Beatitudo!
Posts: 869 | From: Heart of Midlothian | Registered: Dec 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
The point is that the self-important arsehole showed exactly how much regard he has for other people he considers his inferiors - fuck all.
Useful to know.
Serving public servants do not have the authority to ignore their instructions just because someone tells them to. I suggest if you get pulled over for speeding you try your "you're there to serve, so do as I say, and let me drive as fast as I like, you pleb" logic there.
[ 25. September 2012, 11:43: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Well, the government minister, of whatever rank, is also a public servant. And whoever he is, I think Britain is still a society in which we are supposed to be equal before the law. We can all be subject to unknown "policy" from time to time. The minister could (and should) have just sucked it up and inquired about the "policy" later.
I think there's a great irony that in spite of all the content of the Leveson inquiry, the "official police account" has appeared in the press. There's a sneaking suspicion that the police will think it's just fine to supply information to the media in this case.
And when all is said and done, if every encounter between a disgruntled punter and a police officer that involved a few words being exchanged and then everyone getting on with their life made this much news, there wouldn't be any other news. Of course, it's good fodder for the press, the police and the opposition, but it's not as if he's supposed to have assaulted a police officer is it. He has apologised and there doesn't seem to be much more to it really.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
He has apologised and there doesn't seem to be much more to it really.
Yes there is. If someone called me a "pleb" then no apology would erase the fact that they're a shit of the highest order who thinks they're superior to me and can look on me with distain. They can fuck right off, and so can he.
[ 25. September 2012, 11:45: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
It doesn't seem like a resigning matter or a disciplinary matter, though it is revealing, as Karl LB says.
According to Wikipedia, Andrew Mitchell has an impressive record on overseas aid and development. He's a millionaire from a privileged background, but he seems to be someone committed to supporting good causes, including the population of Gaza.
If I was asked to get off my bike and use a pedestrian gate it would annoy me no end. Like many cyclists I'm a bit touchy at the frequent suggestion that I'm not entitled to use the roads like any other vehicle.
On the other hand, I don't think police are servants in the sense that they should defer to their betters. It's the policy that is arguably wrong, not the officer.
Move along, I'd say, nothing to see here.
Apart from the pleasing fact that some people are calling this Gategate.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
You could have posted your rant in Hell, but you didn't, so I'll reply to it in Purgatorial tones.
As Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell is responsible for party discipline, for which he set a lousy example with his rude outburst. Why couldn't he have made a polite request? Is he not routinely polite to those he considers of 'lower rank'? As a former army officer (though of short duration) he should know otherwise. As for the policeman, he was I'm sure carrying out his duties as instructed by his superior officers, which is the way they operate: they do not exist to be bossed around by members of the public, even if they are cabinet ministers.
You are plain, dead wrong in asserting that anyone should take insults from 'their betters' as a normal part of the job.
Anyhow, you're deliberately posting inflamattory crap here to avoid the approriate response which you would receive had you posted in The Other Place.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
If the media, and the Opposition parties show no sense of proportion in such a trivial question...
You think it's trivial that a senior Government minister is apparently incapable of keeping control of his temper after a hard day at the office?
Though I do agree that the media has made too much of it.
The Tories: Still Nasty After All These Years!
You're right, it isn't really news.
[ 25. September 2012, 12:00: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Can I add that as a cyclist it would piss the hell out of me if I wasn't treated as a vehicle, but if I started ripping the copper off a strip and swearing at him I'd be amazed if I wasn't giving my details down at the fuzz box toot sweet.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
He has apologised and there doesn't seem to be much more to it really.
Yes there is. If someone called me a "pleb" then no apology would erase the fact that they're a shit of the highest order who thinks they're superior to me and can look on me with distain. They can fuck right off, and so can he.
Yes, but very large quantities of people who think they can look down on other people (including the police) exist in all walks of life, so it's not surprising to find one in government (or indeed, in the police itself).
Plus which the only way of "knowing" that he used the word pleb (which of course he denies) is by seeing the official police account. Which is not supposed to be in the press. How it got to be in the press is by far the most interesting aspect of this otherwise boring saga.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can I add that as a cyclist it would piss the hell out of me if I wasn't treated as a vehicle, but if I started ripping the copper off a strip and swearing at him I'd be amazed if I wasn't giving my details down at the fuzz box toot sweet.
Ah, but you're not a cabinet minister, ex-army officer and Old Rugbeian. Doesn't that count for anything nowadays?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
That arrogant shits are commonplace is no excuse for being an arrogant shit, and knowing arrogant shits are in government can inform our actions with regard to them when they want our support at the ballot box.
Not that I'd be likely to vote Tory before Satan was spotted putting on his snow shoes to cover the ground to his snow plough before driving it to work.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
[and another thing!]
Isn't it ironic that it's usually tories who bang on about the breakdown of respect for authority and how in their day you did as teachers and police and the local vicar told you and doffed your cap to the squire, and let me tell, you, when I was a boy... /cont. P 96
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Plus which the only way of "knowing" that he used the word pleb (which of course he denies) is by seeing the official police account.
An account which would be viewed with the utmost suspicion if it related to the handling of a load of crusties at a demo, but appears to have been handed down on tablets of stone when there's a Tory involved.
Not that I think they're very likely to be lying, just musing on how easily we slip into assessing accounts based on how much we like/sympathise with people.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
It is much more likely that Mitchell used the word 'pleb' than that the police officer was making it up. It's not in the vocabulary of most ordinary Britons except those schooled in elitist establishments like Eton. (I don't know where Mitchell went to school but as an upper-middle-class Tory he will have absorbed the dialect)
Anyone can lose their temper with public servants of any kind, especially if they perceive them as being unnecessarily obstructive. It would have been understandable, though wrong, for the MP to have sworn at the officer. But to call them a 'pleb' is arrogant snobbery of the worst kind, and reveals exactly what the members of this government think of the rest of us.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can I add that as a cyclist it would piss the hell out of me if I wasn't treated as a vehicle, but if I started ripping the copper off a strip and swearing at him I'd be amazed if I wasn't giving my details down at the fuzz box toot sweet.
I wouldn't be amazed to get away with that (not that I've ever been involved in a dispute with a policeman). I think it's more likely that I would be invited to take a moment to consider if it was wise to continue to carry on in that fashion. If I did carry on doing that then I might expect a trip to the local station.
But as I said before, if the police arrested everyone who had a go at them, meaningful police work would grind to a halt.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Plus which the only way of "knowing" that he used the word pleb (which of course he denies) is by seeing the official police account.
An account which would be viewed with the utmost suspicion if it related to the handling of a load of crusties at a demo, but appears to have been handed down on tablets of stone when there's a Tory involved.
Not that I think they're very likely to be lying, just musing on how easily we slip into assessing accounts based on how much we like/sympathise with people.
Or how likely it seems. I could imagine a copper bigging it up a bit, especially if he needed to justify a public order arrest, but "pleb" seems an unusual insult to pull from out of ones arse.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can I add that as a cyclist it would piss the hell out of me if I wasn't treated as a vehicle, but if I started ripping the copper off a strip and swearing at him I'd be amazed if I wasn't giving my details down at the fuzz box toot sweet.
Ah, but you're not a cabinet minister, ex-army officer and Old Rugbeian. Doesn't that count for anything nowadays?
He may have gone to public school but he is no Gentleman.
Time for him to fall on his sword...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
You think it's trivial that a senior Government minister is apparently incapable of keeping control of his temper after a hard day at the office?
It's certainly a far more trivial matter than when a senior minister in the previous Labour government actually punched a member of the public in the face when provoked. I don't recall any demands that he should have resigned.
Lefty morality in a nutshell: common assault is perfectly OK, but calling someone a name that implies you look down on them is unforgivable. Unless you're looking down on them for being a toff, of course - that's perfectly fine as well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
No, I'm looking down on him for being an arrogant little shit. It's not about calling people names, or even about looking down on them - it's about thinking that one should get ones own way just because one is so very very much more important than anyone else.
[ 25. September 2012, 12:54: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
it's about thinking that one should get ones own way just because one is so very very much more important than anyone else.
If there's a single member of the cabinet who isn't more important to the country than you or I, then their job shouldn't exist.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Incidently, if you're referring to "two jabs Prescott" and the egg incident, would that be the one where no charges were brought because Prescott was deemed by the police to have acted in self defence and therefore there had not, in fact, been a common assault, or indeed an assault of any kind?
Well of course that's what they said. They can't have senior cabinet ministers being arrested like common plebs, can they?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
it's about thinking that one should get ones own way just because one is so very very much more important than anyone else.
If there's a single member of the cabinet who isn't more important to the country than you or I, then their job shouldn't exist.
Being "more important" does not mean one can insist on getting ones own way like a spoilt child. That's the issue here.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Incidently, if you're referring to "two jabs Prescott" and the egg incident, would that be the one where no charges were brought because Prescott was deemed by the police to have acted in self defence and therefore there had not, in fact, been a common assault, or indeed an assault of any kind?
Well of course that's what they said. They can't have senior cabinet ministers being arrested like common plebs, can they?
I assume that your recourse to a sort of low-level conspiracy theory here is an admission that the cases aren't really comparable.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Plus which the only way of "knowing" that he used the word pleb (which of course he denies) is by seeing the official police account.
An account which would be viewed with the utmost suspicion if it related to the handling of a load of crusties at a demo, but appears to have been handed down on tablets of stone when there's a Tory involved.
Not that I think they're very likely to be lying, just musing on how easily we slip into assessing accounts based on how much we like/sympathise with people.
Or how likely it seems. I could imagine a copper bigging it up a bit, especially if he needed to justify a public order arrest, but "pleb" seems an unusual insult to pull from out of ones arse.
Not really. It's not an unknown word - not even particularly uncommon. And it's certianly not only posh public schoolboys who would know it.
It is a very useful insult for the officer to drop into his written report as it highlights the class issue very well. The minister apparently left threatening the officer that he 'hadn't heard the last of this' so to protect his job, who's to say the officer didn't drop the insult into the report as a pre-emptive attack. It is not unknown for the police to write their statements (and rewrite them) to cast themselves in the best light, or cover themselves - as illuminated by inquiries such as Hillsborough.
It's the officer's word against the ministers' at the moment. I think it would be appalling if he's forced to resign on the say so of one man.
And even if Mitchell said what the officer said he did, it's hardly a sacking issue. Karl argues that Mitchell's Great Offence is that he thinks he should get his own way just because he is more important than anyone else. Well so what. Are you a member of the thought police now? Is arrogance a punishable offence?
Mitchell didn't do anything, he only thought something, and expressed this in a throwaway comment. If Mitchell actively tried to get the officer fired because he 'talked back to his betters' then you'd have a point. Instead Mitchell just walked away muttering and swearing. What a criminal! Firing's obviously too good for such an Oppressor of the People. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Being "more important" does not mean one can insist on getting ones own way like a spoilt child. That's the issue here.
Then you should have said that earlier, rather than going on about how it was so terrible that he'd called a policemen a pleb.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I assume that your recourse to a sort of low-level conspiracy theory here is an admission that the cases aren't really comparable.
Of course they're not comparable! One was a working class, salt-of-the-earth Labour minister, and so to be given the benefit of the doubt at all times, and the other is an overprivileged, thinks-he's-better-than-the-rest-of-us Tory toff who should therefore be pilloried at every available opportunity!
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Being "more important" does not mean one can insist on getting ones own way like a spoilt child. That's the issue here.
Then you should have said that earlier, rather than going on about how it was so terrible that he'd called a policemen a pleb.
Well, I'm glad you understand me now.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I assume that your recourse to a sort of low-level conspiracy theory here is an admission that the cases aren't really comparable.
Of course they're not comparable! One was a working class, salt-of-the-earth Labour minister, and so to be given the benefit of the doubt at all times, and the other is an overprivileged, thinks-he's-better-than-the-rest-of-us Tory toff who should therefore be pilloried at every available opportunity! [/QB]
That's not it, and you know it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Plus which the only way of "knowing" that he used the word pleb (which of course he denies) is by seeing the official police account.
An account which would be viewed with the utmost suspicion if it related to the handling of a load of crusties at a demo, but appears to have been handed down on tablets of stone when there's a Tory involved.
Not that I think they're very likely to be lying, just musing on how easily we slip into assessing accounts based on how much we like/sympathise with people.
Or how likely it seems. I could imagine a copper bigging it up a bit, especially if he needed to justify a public order arrest, but "pleb" seems an unusual insult to pull from out of ones arse.
Not really. It's not an unknown word - not even particularly uncommon. And it's certianly not only posh public schoolboys who would know it.
It is a very useful insult for the officer to drop into his written report as it highlights the class issue very well. The minister apparently left threatening the officer that he 'hadn't heard the last of this' so to protect his job, who's to say the officer didn't drop the insult into the report as a pre-emptive attack. It is not unknown for the police to write their statements (and rewrite them) to cast themselves in the best light, or cover themselves - as illuminated by inquiries such as Hillsborough.
It's the officer's word against the ministers' at the moment. I think it would be appalling if he's forced to resign on the say so of one man.
And even if Mitchell said what the officer said he did, it's hardly a sacking issue. Karl argues that Mitchell's Great Offence is that he thinks he should get his own way just because he is more important than anyone else. Well so what. Are you a member of the thought police now? Is arrogance a punishable offence?
Mitchell didn't do anything, he only thought something, and expressed this in a throwaway comment. If Mitchell actively tried to get the officer fired because he 'talked back to his betters' then you'd have a point. Instead Mitchell just walked away muttering and swearing. What a criminal! Firing's obviously too good for such an Oppressor of the People.
[tries to find where I said he should be fired]
Nope. I've merely said he's an arrogant tosser, and it's important we know he is, because he's in a position of authority.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Marvin: quote:
It's certainly a far more trivial matter than when a senior minister in the previous Labour government actually punched a member of the public in the face when provoked. I don't recall any demands that he should have resigned.
I don't remember posting any comment about 'Two Jabs' Prescott at the time, but I think both of them should have faced the Full Majesty of the Law - both Prescott and the guy who threw the egg at him. I also think there's a difference between overreacting to someone throwing an egg at you and overreacting to a police officer who is merely asking you to comply with the rules everyone else has to follow - which were presumably made with the aim of keeping the PM and other members of the government safe from terrorist attacks.
As Prescott was in the middle of campaigning for a General Election at the time of the 'Two Jabs' incident, the powers that be in the media may have thought that he'd lose his job anyway...
Karl - I haven't been to Downing Street recently so am open to correction here, but my understanding is that only official vehicles are allowed in Downing Street. So presumably, if you are on a bike and insist on being treated as a vehicle you wouldn't be allowed in at all.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Hawk: quote:
If Mitchell actively tried to get the officer fired because he 'talked back to his betters' then you'd have a point.
Well, in effect this is what's going to happen. He says he didn't use the word 'pleb'; the officer says he did. One of them must be wrong. What do you think will happen to the police officer if he can't prove his version of events?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
I am sure the chief whip is an unattractive character but the use of the word "pleb" just doesn't ring true. I have enormous admiration for the police and virtually none for our MPs but one can't help but wonder that someone given a uniform and the power to open and shut a gate will behave like a real little oik. Its the traffic warden scenario with golden balls attached to it. They will be giving them clip-boards next.
Still very good to see an MP brought low.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I remember at the Magistrates' 'back in the day', there was quite a bit of talk amongst us defence briefs about whether we should ever try to run 'the Prescott Defence'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
I am sure the chief whip is an unattractive character but the use of the word "pleb" just doesn't ring true. I have enormous admiration for the police and virtually none for our MPs but one can't help but wonder that someone given a uniform and the power to open and shut a gate will behave like a real little oik. Its the traffic warden scenario with golden balls attached to it. They will be giving them clip-boards next.
Still very good to see an MP brought low.
I like traffic wardens, meself. Had I my way, I'd designate a town to have no parking enforcement and every ignorant arse who goes on about them would have to go and live there for a couple of months.
Never had a problem with them myself, but that might be my habit of only parking where it's allowed.
[ 25. September 2012, 14:48: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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John D. Ward
Shipmate
# 1378
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Still very good to see an MP brought low.
The problem with this attitude is that it creates a climate in which no decent, respectable person would want to become an MP.
Posts: 208 | From: Swansea, Wales, U.K. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
<traffic wardens tangent>
They tried getting rid of traffic wardens in Aberystwyth. It didn't work. Even the AA thought it was a bad idea.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I was going to join in the opprobrium until I read, above, about his record in humanitarian aid.
He said he had a very stressful day but it seems he had been for a curry at one of the priciest London restaurants - I'd only be stressed if i had to pay the bill.
I am wondering whether there is an emerging mental health problem here - 'losing one's rag' like that could be the start of a manic episode.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
...I don't remember posting any comment about 'Two Jabs' Prescott at the time, but I think both of them should have faced the Full Majesty of the Law - both Prescott and the guy who threw the egg at him.
Awww, why do some people insist on trying to suck all the fun out of life? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
<traffic wardens tangent>
They tried getting rid of traffic wardens in Aberystwyth. It didn't work. Even the AA thought it was a bad idea.
<tangent continues>
But what did work was when the local paper started a weekly 'Streets of Shame' spread where photos of illegally parked vehicles (particularly those which had obstructed other traffic) were published, with dates, times, and reg plates clearly shown.
More than one local was heard to say that they were being much more careful about parking because "I don't mind a ticket so much, but I don't want to be on streets of shame".
Anyway the wardens are back now and it's all much better.
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm of two minds about this one.
I find it equally possible to believe that a policeman politely asked the Chief Whip to take his bicycle out a different way, and the Chief Whip responded objectionably, or an agressive and possibly pompous policeman blocked him, stood on procedure and officiously ordered him to do as he was told.
It seems to me that if it was the latter, it might have been prudent to comply, but it's unfair to condemn someone for not doing so.
This is not Germany. I don't go with the notion that because they are the police, and because, as we've seen this week, some of them are occasionally exposed to dangerous risks, they are entitled to respect as of right at all times, however rudely they treat us, just because they wear the uniform. Police are citizens too.
If they are given, because of their job, the right to order us around, they should do so politely and respectfully.
It's rather like the argument one has heard trotted out yet again this week that the death penalty should be re-introduced, but just for killing police-persons. There are two defensible arguments on hanging and only two. Either the death penalty is wrong, and nobody should be executed, or the death penalty is a permissible extreme penalty for taking life, any life. If so, my life, your life, are just as valuable and just as important as a blue uniformed life.
The police corporately, also haven't a very good record for total veracity, particular where force honour, as they see it, is involved. So I also don't accept the immediate leap to 'are you calling our officer a liar?'. It's upping the ante, and does not help getting at the truth.
So did the Chief Whip lose his cool with an officer who was just trying to do his job, or was the officer officious? At the moment we don't know. I suspect we won't find out. In which case, the sooner this story is politely laid to rest, the better.
And how many peoples' views are really made up by which party they normally vote for?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Another noteworthy facet: we know what Mitchell says he didn't say, but he's being very coy about what exactly he actually did say. I wonder why?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
The one thing the "minister" doesn't deny is that he swore at, or in front of, the policeman. In many other circumstances this would result in an arrest as it is a public order offence to swear in public.
In that respect the minister has been treated differently for this sort of behaviour than most of the public (think zero tolerance in town centres on friday nights).
Having said that I walked past Downing Street a couple of weeks ago and stopped to look. I found the policemen there officious in the extreme in preventing me taking pictures. A please and thank you doesn't go amiss in today's world, gentlemen: give soem people a uniform, a title and a gun and they think they rule the world with everyone else to be ordered about. If it was any of THOSE who confronted the Minsister, I can see why he might (might, I emphasise) respond in the way he admitted he did.
I was pretty annoyed by the police's attitude myself esp as it was rude and esp as they were a little differently behaved with the young girls who flocked round them for a photo. Not wishing to get banged up, I kept quiet (not easy for me) and walked away.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John D. Ward:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Still very good to see an MP brought low.
The problem with this attitude is that it creates a climate in which no decent, respectable person would want to become an MP.
But no decent respectable person would want to be an MP. I am sure the vanishingly small number of decent respectable MPs also wish they were doing something else. By the nature of the corrupt, decaying system the virtuous ones get nowhere. The whole thing is a stinking hulk reeking of cant.
You would really have to be in the World of the Bewildered not to realise that Parliament is full of sanctimonious humbugs, little shits and crooks.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He said he had a very stressful day but it seems he had been for a curry at one of the priciest London restaurants - I'd only be stressed if i had to pay the bill.
Ah, so it's all right then. I'll try it next time I'm arrested on a demo or kettled or something and just see how that works.
Why oh why, can't someone own up to the truth for once before they are made to make a "statement" (aka make an idiot of themselves and pretend we are one too).
Cabinet Ministers anyone? Lend me your brains, I'm building an idiot.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
There's nothing quite like left-wing self-righteous indignation. As has already been mentioned on this thread, how conveniently the great pugilist of the left has been forgotten - and not one who particularly liked to relate to his own "roots", hence his taste in personal transport.
There's nothing to this story except a human being losing his temper (which he shouldn't have done) after an apparently hard day at the office (OK, so perhaps it wasn't a hard day). I understand that the offended party has accepted his apology. What is it about "I accept your apology" that both the press and the opposition don't understand? If Mitchell has committed a crime, then why didn't the police arrest him? Nothing to do with the press or the flippin' Labour party.
As for the use of the word "pleb": how hypocritical of the left to make an issue of this. Could they perhaps please apologise for their indulgence in sneering inverted snobbery by constantly referring to the Tories as "toffs"?
[tangential rant]On the subject of cyclists being accepted on the roads as legitimate vehicles: what a good idea! Perhaps such cyclists might like to help their cause by acting like proper vehicles and start obeying the Highway Code! Well do I remember the junction where I, as a driver, was at the front of the queue, green light came on, and as I was pulling away, mad cyclist belted in front of my path from the other direction, which was a blind corner, having utterly ignored a red light, thinking of course, that being a mini-saviour of the planet he was immune from such cramping legalism. Of course, if kindly, innocent, vulnerable cyclist had been hit, guess whose fault it would have been? The nasty, evil, polluting, arrogant, impatient motorist, apparently!! And there are other examples I could give.[/tangential rant over]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
According to the Torygraph, one of the things Mitchell is reported as having said was 'You haven't heard the last of this!' The police constable in question (who I understand was female) put in her report that she wrote it up 'because Mr Mitchell's comments appeared to indicate that he was unhappy with my actions.'
Two tangents: The Sun (which leo alludes to) wasn't suggesting that it was curry Mr Mitchell had had too much of at 'London's most expensive curry-house'.
Also, here in Summerisle we were amused to see that the style in which police reports are written hasn't changed in 70 years.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The one thing the "minister" doesn't deny is that he swore at, or in front of, the policeman. In many other circumstances this would result in an arrest as it is a public order offence to swear in public.
In that respect the minister has been treated differently for this sort of behaviour than most of the public (think zero tolerance in town centres on friday nights).
Not quite: I think both sides accept that he was warned about his language and that he would be arrested if he persisted, which shut him up momentarily. That's pretty much the same for the Friday night clubber: you typically get three warnings to watch your language before you get your collar felt.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Never heard the word "pleb" before, and have no idea what it actually means or whether it is long e or short e in pronunciation. It sounds like a very bad word from the response. Or is it just because it was a fancy gov't guy saying it?
Since when is swearing or name calling illegal? It may be impolite, but if there's no threat, there's no offence made as far as I'm aware in Canada. Though the rules are often made up on the spot, say it it is a demonstration or crowd scene.
I have asked local police why they are angry and to change their language myself on two occasions of traffic stops, as as subset of officers they prone to use profanity themselves here. It is the traffic officers who are impolite, others are routinely very polite and pleasant in my experience.
And finally, how is it that the outburst was not captured on someone's camera or smarty phone. of course we all want to see the youtube video, being a word of voyeurs.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Of course, if kindly, innocent, vulnerable cyclist had been hit, guess whose fault it would have been? The nasty, evil, polluting, arrogant, impatient motorist, apparently!! And there are other examples I could give.[/tangential rant over]
Leaving aside the tendentious clap-trap, there are several European countries where this is indeed the case. If a motorist hits a cyclist, it's their fault.
Having been fetched off my bike a couple of times by nasty, evil, polluting, arrogant impatient motorists, the likelihood of ending up in A&E is quite high for the cyclist, and pretty much zero for the driver.
I am, of course, also a driver, and have managed in 20+ years of driving never to hit a cyclist.
Class war much, EE?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
[QUOTE]Not quite: I think both sides accept that he was warned about his language and that he would be arrested if he persisted, which shut him up momentarily. That's pretty much the same for the Friday night clubber: you typically get three warnings to watch your language before you get your collar felt.
It's a pity that doesn't apply unilaterally across the UK. In markland it was one "f" and you're nicked for the night.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Since when is swearing or name calling illegal?
It is in the UK - it's what's called a public order offence
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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