Ship of Fools: Angels and Archangels and ...

Thread: Angels and Archangels and ... Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

On Saturday we have the feast of the Archangels or Michael and all angels.

I love angels!

Remembering them, or observing them is a reminder to me that there are more things in heaven and earth... Than human beings.

However I have been wondering whether some Christians have other beings in their cosmology - or is it just humans , and angels - and gods, of course.

Then I wondered if the teaching of different ranks of angels rather suggests different beings - or does it. Not sure on that. But we don't say different ranks of humanity...

Rather Random thoughts, I know, so to focus in a little...

Is the doctrine of angels significant for you?

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

I love angels, and having "seen" them, it's wonderful to know they are around us. They looked after Jesus and where he was buried and spoke positively to those who came to do things on his body.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

The idea that we worship with angels is beautiful and powerful and deeply comforting.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

quote:
Therefore with Angels and Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify Thy glorious name, evermore praising Thee, and saying: Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts! Heaven and Earth are full of your Glory, Hosanna in the Highest! Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord, Hosanna in the Highest!

There is the Communion of Saints which most Christians acknowledge when they say or sing the Credo.

Angels are part of the Communion of Saints; messengers of God, indeed.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

Quite apart from the eucharist, I invoke the angels sometimes several times a week as I commend the souls of the dying into the care of God - "Go forth upon thy journey ...".

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

Many thanks for an interesting question, Percy B.

Angels (and their fallen brethren) seem to have been a creation of a different sort from Adamkind (from dust of the earth). Humanity comes from dust and returns to dust i.e. completely homogenous.

There is little, I think, in the canonical scriptures to suggest that angels have different orders; this concept comes more from writings such as the Book of Enoch and the formulations of the QBLH, together with their demonic Qlipphotic counterparts.

That the Angelic Creation could rebel suggests they have some kind of free-will and are not just God's *thought-slaves*, though perhaps their version of *free-will* is not of the same kind as that we understand humanity to possess. Maybe theirs is more of a YES/NO variety; they were created to perform certain tasks which the *fallen* still do, in a fashion that is in direct opposition to those who remain within the heavenly realms.

For instance, Chesed (the Fourth Sephirah), has the Virtue of Obedience yet also, when the pendulum swings too far, contains its Vice (by which is meant an unfortunate but still not necessarily utterly evil effect - think Yin-Yang) - Hypocrisy, Bigotry, Gluttony, Tyranny. One might think of the Obedience required of say, an army (or any other highly-disciplined organization in which this is the highest virtue) which can become corrupted so that Obedience obeys without question even the most inhumane of orders. These are the natural oppositions.

In the truly evil *demonic* reflection, we have the Smiters and Permitters of Destruction (active, rather than passive evil). The Archangel of Chesed is named as Chamael *Burner of God* of the order of the Seraphim; the demonic reflection is Astaroth of the order Gamchicoth *Devourers*.

<wanders off to lick some windows>

[ 28. September 2012, 23:31: Message edited by: Jahlove ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Angels are glorious indeed. They are of a different creation to us, but are with us in the Communion of Saints, with whom we join in our songs of never-ending praise to the Creator.

.I remember Michael especially as the leader of the army of Heaven, the one who inflicted the first wound on Lucifer, reminding Lucifer that he was not of unlimited divine power, and (as Michael was lower to him in the hierarchy) humiliating him as well.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Angels are glorious indeed. They are of a different creation to us, but are with us in the Communion of Saints, with whom we join in our songs of never-ending praise to the Creator.

.I remember Michael especially as the leader of the army of Heaven, the one who inflicted the first wound on Lucifer, reminding Lucifer that he was not of unlimited divine power, and (as Michael was lower to him in the hierarchy) humiliating him as well.

And with us too at the Eucharist as we join in singing with them.

If some are fallen then presumably, by classical theology, they need redemption.

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

yes - tho some would argue they are beyond God's love/redemption. Imo, since we are enjoined to pray for our enemies, surely this includes THE Enemy; that somehow even The Evil One can be *saved*.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

That's what I was intending to say Percy B, but can see an ambiguity in my post.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

In the Bible some see angels, or glimpse them. This suggests to me the closeness of another dimension, one which we glimpse from time to time.

I wonder then if seeing angels - and I mean more than kind people! Is perhaps more common than we may at first think. There are examples, are there not, of angels only being recognised after the event. Maybe some for us are never recognised.

Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :

I don't think you need to necessarily "see" angels to be convinced they exist. Nor do you need to be aware of their existence for them to carry out their work. Events like the Annunciation are unique and only happen because they need to.

Some of the traditional beliefs, like that in guardian angels, are spot on IMO.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I got to read a book by Carol Hathorne on angels at a book club. It's called Assist our Song and looks at the Bible accounts of angels and tales of angels in our lives now.

Are angels sweet kind beings that watch over us? All the Bible accounts suggest they are scary.

[ 29. September 2012, 09:17: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Angels are glorious indeed. They are of a different creation to us, but are with us in the Communion of Saints, with whom we join in our songs of never-ending praise to the Creator.

.I remember Michael especially as the leader of the army of Heaven, the one who inflicted the first wound on Lucifer, reminding Lucifer that he was not of unlimited divine power, and (as Michael was lower to him in the hierarchy) humiliating him as well.
And with us too at the Eucharist as we join in singing with them.

If some are fallen then presumably, by classical theology, they need redemption.

So thought Origen. Although the writer of John's Apocalypse seems to think differently: chains, lake of fire and all that.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Angels are glorious indeed. They are of a different creation to us, but are with us in the Communion of Saints, with whom we join in our songs of never-ending praise to the Creator.

.I remember Michael especially as the leader of the army of Heaven, the one who inflicted the first wound on Lucifer, reminding Lucifer that he was not of unlimited divine power, and (as Michael was lower to him in the hierarchy) humiliating him as well.
And with us too at the Eucharist as we join in singing with them.

If some are fallen then presumably, by classical theology, they need redemption.
So thought Origen. Although the writer of John's Apocalypse seems to think differently: chains, lake of fire and all that.

The Apocalypse is one view among many.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

Just want to note that many see angels as nothing more than the inhabitants of heaven, and that everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel. [Angel]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Just want to note that many see angels as nothing more than the inhabitants of heaven, and that everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.

Although that's not in the Bible

Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.

Possibly according to the New Church. Certainly not traditional Christian theology. Angels are a separate order of beings to humans there.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.
Possibly according to the New Church. Certainly not traditional Christian theology.

Yet it's a common Christian belief.

The Bible is actually pretty vague about what angels are. The word simply means "messenger."

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

Freddy, my dear chap, this happens every time angels come up. The idea that everyone becomes an angel is a belief in your church - absolutely fine, no question about it - but it is not "common Christian belief". Most Christians have never heard of the idea, I'm afraid.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Freddy, my dear chap, this happens every time angels come up. The idea that everyone becomes an angel is a belief in your church - absolutely fine, no question about it - but it is not "common Christian belief". Most Christians have never heard of the idea, I'm afraid.

I'm not interested in discussing it, I just wanted to note that many people do believe this. It is common in film and literature, and there are numerous websites dedicated to telling people it's not true. Why would they do this if it wasn't a common thought?

My point is just that the Bible is unspecific about angels and do not support many authoritative statements about them.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.
Possibly according to the New Church. Certainly not traditional Christian theology.
Yet it's a common Christian belief.

The Bible is actually pretty vague about what angels are. The word simply means "messenger."

So, God sends dead people to give messages to people?

Gabriel is a deceased man, the angels at the tomb were once people who lived 'who-knows-where?' on earth? Michael the archangel - was he a dead person once? 'Dead people' with wings are going to usher other dead people into hell? And all because angels are 'messengers' who once were living people?

Hmmm, I don't think you've thought this one through Freddy. Maybe you've watched "It's a wonderful Life" a few times too many! [Biased]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Gabriel is a deceased man, the angels at the tomb were once people who lived 'who-knows-where?' on earth? Michael the archangel - was he a dead person once? 'Dead people' with wings are going to usher other dead people into hell? And all because angels are 'messengers' who once were living people?

Yes, that's right. It will be nice to have a job in heaven!

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Hmmm, I don't think you've thought this one through Freddy. Maybe you've watched "It's a wonderful Life" a few times too many!

If it's good enough for Jimmy Stewart, it's good enough for me.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
If some are fallen then presumably, by classical theology, they need redemption.
So thought Origen. Although the writer of John's Apocalypse seems to think differently: chains, lake of fire and all that.

Perhaps that's how they're redeemed - not an orthodox point of view, just a whimsy. At any rate, it does the fallen (angels or whatever) no harm for us to pray for their redemption; and may do us some good.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
For instance, Chesed (the Fourth Sephirah), has the Virtue of Obedience

Who?

Where is this information from?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.
Possibly according to the New Church. Certainly not traditional Christian theology.
Yet it's a common Christian belief.

The Bible is actually pretty vague about what angels are. The word simply means "messenger."

Indeed - the angel/messenger who appeared to Mary at the annunciation could have been the First Century equivalent of a postman.

(Indeed, he could even have been Jesus's biological father!)

Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :

There are some even stranger beliefs about angels than Freddy's around. Visit any New Age bookstore.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

So much about the angels/archangels comes from pre-biblical mythology, and from minor deities. Even in ancient Israel, cherubim and seraphim didn't look like people. They did, however, look like their equivalents in other cultures (whether angelic beings, consorts of gods/goddesses, or gods/goddesses themselves).

None of that means angels are/aren't real, it just adds to the mix. It also makes a lot of sense to have angelic messengers in the ancient world, where heaven was a literal place just beyond the sky. God certainly wasn't going to come down here, so to get a message through, "he" sent angels.

Jacob's ladder is thought by many to have been a ziggurat; a ziggurat was a means of connecting heaven and earth, and gave divine beings a means of descending to earth and priests a means of ascending nearer to heaven. By using that imagery of himself, Jesus points to the fact that he is the connection point between heaven and earth.

IOW, in our current worldview, angels really are no longer necessary. I remain agnostic about whether they exist or not, because God doesn't create out of necessity.

Now, I don't know exactly how Swedenborgians understand the idea of people becoming angels, but I could see it working like this: Our current reality and what we think of as the "heavenly" reality have many points of contact, and sometimes people become aware of that contact. If people who have died are still on their spiritual journey, some will be serving God and others will be interested in causing problems whenever they can. People who experience them in our realm, then, might come up with ideas and terms like ghosts, poltergeists, angels, and demons to describe the phenomena they experience. (NB I'm not claiming to believe this - I'm agnostic about it all.)

But I don't think mocking Freddy's point ("ha ha, that just seems ridiculous to me, clearly you haven't thought it through") is really justified. Mudfrog, is it because you think of passing on a message from God as demeaning (being just the errand boy)? Or is it that you see it as too noble for a human being to do? It would help if you would explain why this strikes you as such a patently silly idea, because clearly it doesn't seem so to everyone.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Now, I don't know exactly how Swedenborgians understand the idea of people becoming angels, but I could see it working like this: Our current reality and what we think of as the "heavenly" reality have many points of contact, and sometimes people become aware of that contact. If people who have died are still on their spiritual journey, some will be serving God and others will be interested in causing problems whenever they can. People who experience them in our realm, then, might come up with ideas and terms like ghosts, poltergeists, angels, and demons to describe the phenomena they experience. (NB I'm not claiming to believe this - I'm agnostic about it all.)

Yes, it's something like that.

According to New Church teaching, what we call "death" is really nothing but moving from the phsical world to the spiritual world, like moving from one room to another. A person does not seem to themselves as in any way changed by this event, and they continue their lives as before. But if their true motivations center on love for other people and for God then their life becomes progressively happier. If not then they are confronted with the frustrations inherent in whatever their true interests are.

The former become angels in heaven, the latter become devils in hell. Both heaven and hell maintain a continual interaction with the human race, an interaction that is almost exclusively invisible and unnoticed by both people and angels. But occasionally there is an awareness for specific reasons, and we read about some of these events in the Bible.

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
But I don't think mocking Freddy's point ("ha ha, that just seems ridiculous to me, clearly you haven't thought it through") is really justified. Mudfrog, is it because you think of passing on a message from God as demeaning (being just the errand boy)? Or is it that you see it as too noble for a human being to do? It would help if you would explain why this strikes you as such a patently silly idea, because clearly it doesn't seem so to everyone.

Thank you. I'm always surprised that this idea seems so silly to some, when it is a perfectly common cultural idea. Many people believe that their dead loved ones are angels in heaven, that they look down on those they love, and that they are close to them. This idea is pervasive and normal in many kinds of literature.

It's true that this isn't specifically taught in the Bible, but the Bible is too vague about everything having to do with angels to make many hard and fast statements about them - other than that they are real.

Church tradition, on the other hand, has evolved many specific ideas. These ideas carry the weight of Scripture in some denominations, but Protestant denominations normally see only Biblical teachings as authoritative.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

The idea that angels are people who have died and gone to heaven is pretty common in pop culture I'd say. I see references to it all the time, from children's books and cartoons to movies (lie someone mentioned, Clarence the angel in It's a Wonderful Life, and the legend that is mentioned in it, that every time you hear a bell an angel gets his wings) to TV shows like Touched by an Angel. You can say it's wrong, you can say it's unbiblical, but you can't say the belief doesn't exist.

Personally I believe in angels as creations of God of a different type or order than us rather than as people who have died, but who knows, I could be wrong.

[ 01. October 2012, 01:11: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]

Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :

I think it is quite possible to point out that Freddy's ideas on angels are not conventionally Christian without mocking him, churchgeek.

There are traditional Christian teachings on angels which I would not wish to go into on this thread for the very same reason Freddy did not wish to discuss the Swedenborgian ones: it is so easy for a thread to deteriorate into ridicule.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I apologise to Freddy for mocking him.
It's easy to rattle of a post without being considerate.

My dismissal of the idea of dead people being angels had more to do with the messenger aspect than the fact that angels may or may not be departed saints.

What we will be in heaven is a tremendous mystery, of course, and we tread lightly - especially when dealing with bereavement.

But the idea that those who are dead are able to communicate with the living - whether as angels with a message from God or as 'themselves' appearing to their own relatives - just seems to be bot unsubstantiated from Scripture and inconsistent with logic and experience.

If it were indeed true that the departed saints were messengers, able to move freely from Glory to our mortal existence, I would expect a lot more messages, to be perfectly honest. I would also expect there to be a 'thinner divide' with a lot more coming and going and a greater appreciation by us here below of the reality of the life hereafter.

Anyway, I wonder how Freddy would deal with this passage:

quote:
Luke 16:19-31
New International Version (NIV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

It seems to me that there is no precedent, no possibility and no permission from God to allow such messages to come to us from the departed.

I see no justification for angelic beings - just a handful of whom, out of the thousands upon thousands of such beings, are said to be messengers - being the souls of the departed.

quote:
Luke 16:19-31
New International Version (NIV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I apologise to Freddy for mocking him.
It's easy to rattle of a post without being considerate.

That's fine. No offense taken. We have discussed this often in the past, so I was hesitant to bring it up and understand any irritation it might raise.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
My dismissal of the idea of dead people being angels had more to do with the messenger aspect than the fact that angels may or may not be departed saints.

That is so interesting. I would never have thought that this was an issue.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Anyway, I wonder how Freddy would deal with this passage:

I have always loved this Lazarus story. I agree that it does mean that God does not allow people to return to their kindred and give them warnings. There is a "great gulf" between their world and ours.

However, this does not mean that it never happens, as we see from a number of biblical accounts. Samuel is raised to speak to David, and Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus on the mount, speaking of His coming death.

Similarly, angels almost never appear to people either. Even in the Bible it happens in only a few striking accounts. Normally spiritual things are invisible and undetectable to people - so much so that many people doubt that they even exist.

It does happen that people sometimes do have vivid dreams of departed loved ones, dreams so vivid that they will insist that they really saw and spoke with them. Very commonly these dreams have a comforting component, reassuring those who have them about the well-being of their loved one.

At the same time, the message of the Lazarus account is still true. People in heaven are not normally sent as messengers to people in the world. This is not because it is not possible but because "if they don't believe Moses and the prophets they won't be convinced even if one rises from the dead." In other words, it wouldn't work. Faith based on being convinced through miracles is not a very strong kind of faith.

[ 01. October 2012, 11:52: Message edited by: Freddy ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

So when is an angel not an angel? And what is it if it isn't an angel? Is an angel a job (messenger) or a state of being, a created spirit?

What is it if it isn't 'messaging'?

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So when is an angel not an angel? And what is it if it isn't an angel? Is an angel a job (messenger) or a state of being, a created spirit?

Good questions. Obviously the word in Scripture is associated with bearing messages to people in the world. We have come to think of the word "angel" as describing a class of spiritual beings. I think that they are just people in heaven who are given that specific job for some specific reason. I could be wrong.

Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :

The traditional Christian teaching, as exemplified in the Bible, is that angels are, as you say Freddy "a class of spiritual being".

There was and possibly still is a New Age fascination with "angels"; "angelic visitation" and "channeling angels" a few years ago unconnected with any traditional religious context. What these entities and encounters were, if not hallucinatory, I have no idea. What the longterm effects I would not wish to postulate. That is possibly why I tend to leave discussions of angels, here or elsewhere, well and truly alone.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Yesterday we observed Holy Guardian Angels at church, and in a brief homily the priest encouraged us to be on the alert for angels - unusual messengers, he said, who may be challenging us.

It was a good thought and I thought I'd share it here. [Smile]

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

And yesterday we were studying the beginning of Luke, staring in chapter one there was plenty about the senior angel, Gabriel, who was listened to and obeyed to by people.
Not everyone in the group admitted they'd seen any angels.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
What these entities and encounters were, if not hallucinatory, I have no idea. What the longterm effects I would not wish to postulate. That is possibly why I tend to leave discussions of angels, here or elsewhere, well and truly alone.

By contrast, my denomination has detailed teachings about every aspect of this topic. I teach frequently about them, and the people I teach seem to accept every detail as reliable information.

So it is interesting to me to discuss this outside my denomination, where people do not have these ideas, and to read what people think and believe.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The idea that angels are people who have died and gone to heaven is pretty common in pop culture I'd say. I see references to it all the time, from children's books and cartoons to movies (lie someone mentioned, Clarence the angel in It's a Wonderful Life, and the legend that is mentioned in it, that every time you hear a bell an angel gets his wings) to TV shows like Touched by an Angel. You can say it's wrong, you can say it's unbiblical, but you can't say the belief doesn't exist.

Exactly, and because of its pervasiveness in pop culture, many, including many Christians, assume that it is the biblical or predominant Christian view. I particularly hear it voiced when a child dies.

What always interests me is the depiction of angels (including seraphim and cherubim) in popular culture. Nothing like the descriptions we have in the OT, though the NT does seem to suggest the possibility of angels being mistaken for people at least some of the time. But it was always noteworthy to me that the first thing angels tend to say is "Don't be afraid," from which I infer that there's something there to be afraid of.

Personally, I like C.S. Lewis's description in That Hideous Strength.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
What always interests me is the depiction of angels (including seraphim and cherubim) in popular culture. Nothing like the descriptions we have in the OT, though the NT does seem to suggest the possibility of angels being mistaken for people at least some of the time. But it was always noteworthy to me that the first thing angels tend to say is "Don't be afraid," from which I infer that there's something there to be afraid of.

It's actually in the OT that angels are frequently mistaken for ordinary people. For example:

quote:
Genesis 18 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground.

Genesis 19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.

Genesis 32:24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.

Joshua 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?” So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

Judges 6:11 Now the Angel of the Lord came and sat under the terebinth tree which was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon threshed wheat in the winepress, in order to hide it from the Midianites. 12 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him, and said to him, “The Lord is with you, you mighty man of valor!”
13 Gideon said to Him, “O my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the Lord has forsaken us and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.”

Judges 13:3 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “Indeed now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and bear a son…6 So the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A Man of God came to me, and His countenance was like the countenance of the Angel of God, very awesome; but I did not ask Him where He was from, and He did not tell me His name…(Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)

Paul comments on the incident in Genesis 18:

quote:
Hebrews 13:2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.

So Paul clearly thinks that angels can appear as normal people.

It is in the New Testament that angels so frequently tell people not to be afraid:

quote:
Matthew 28:5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.

Luke 1:30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Luke 2:10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people

Interestingly, Jesus says this even more frequently:

quote:
Matthew 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

Mark 6:50 for they all saw Him and were troubled. But immediately He talked with them and said to them, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.”

John 6:20 But Jesus said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.”

Matthew 14:27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.”

Acts 18:9 Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent;

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

I'm not sure that this means that there was anything to be afraid of, only that people are startled when they see unexpected things. Or when they think they've seen a ghost.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It's actually in the OT that angels are frequently mistaken for ordinary people. . . .

Paul comments on the incident in Genesis 18:

quote:
Hebrews 13:2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.
So Paul clearly thinks that angels can appear as normal people.

Thanks for the OT reminders -- I was thinking more of things like Isaiah's vision, but you're right about the other references. And the Pauling passage to which you refer is what I was thinking of when I said the NT implies that angels can appear as ordinary humans.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I was thinking more of things like Isaiah's vision,

Yes, that's right. In many places in the OT it is very obvious that angels are not people, but appear dramatically and do dramatic things.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Just to remind you that the Angel of the Lord - and one of the three angels who visited Abraham - are actually God himself. - not a dead person at all.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Just to remind you that the Angel of the Lord - and one of the three angels who visited Abraham - are actually God himself. - not a dead person at all.

One of the three, or all of the three?

Is the "Angel of the Lord" God Himself, or is He an angel that presents what God says? Why is He sometimes called simply "the Lord" and sometimes the "Angel of the Lord"?

Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
What these entities and encounters were, if not hallucinatory, I have no idea. What the longterm effects I would not wish to postulate. That is possibly why I tend to leave discussions of angels, here or elsewhere, well and truly alone.
By contrast, my denomination has detailed teachings about every aspect of this topic. I teach frequently about them, and the people I teach seem to accept every detail as reliable information.

So it is interesting to me to discuss this outside my denomination, where people do not have these ideas, and to read what people think and believe.

Interesting you left out the first part of my post.

Obviously you see this as a potential forum to spread your ideas.

Like all ideas which people attempt to spread via these threads I think it is a case of caveat emptor (buyer beware).

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Interesting you left out the first part of my post.

Which was:

quote:
The traditional Christian teaching, as exemplified in the Bible, is that angels are, as you say Freddy "a class of spiritual being".

There was and possibly still is a New Age fascination with "angels"; "angelic visitation" and "channeling angels" a few years ago unconnected with any traditional religious context.

I had no comment about that. It's perfectly true as far as I can see.

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Obviously you see this as a potential forum to spread your ideas.

I deny it.

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Like all ideas which people attempt to spread via these threads I think it is a case of caveat emptor (buyer beware).

Agreed. We all know what kind of people frequent these places. [Paranoid]

Posted by Sir Pellinore (# 12163) on :

Caution is not to be confuted with paranoia, Freddy.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Caution is not to be confuted with paranoia, Freddy.

Yes, it's hard to know how to respond to ideas and points of view that differ radically from our own.

While I do learn and change my views due to the impact of what I read here, my more common reaction is to become ever more entrenched in my possibly mistaken beliefs.

So I am impressed with the people here who do seem more open than I am to accepting the advice and beliefs of others.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
... everyone who dies and goes to heaven becomes an angel.

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
Possibly according to the New Church. Certainly not traditional Christian theology. Angels are a separate order of beings to humans there.

quote:
Originally posted by Mark in 12:25:

When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Perhaps not quite there, but intriguing nevertheless.

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

An Archangelic Prayer
A ninth century Irish prayer to the archangels. It includes several lesser known names among the archangels.

May Gabriel be with me on Sundays, and the power of the King of Heaven. May Gabriel be with me always that evil may not come to me, nor injury.

Michael on Monday I speak of, my mind is set on him,not with anyone do I compare him but with Jesus, Mary’s son.

If it be Tuesday, Raphael I mention, until the end comes, for my help. One of the seven whom I beseech, as long as I am on the field of the world.

May Uriel be with me on Wednesdays, the abbot with high nobility, against wound and against danger, against the sea of rough wind.

Sariel on Thursday I speak of, against the swift waves of the sea, against every evil that comes to us, against every disease that seizes us.

On the day of the second fast, Rumiel – a clear blessing – I have loved,I say only the truth, good the friend I have taken.

May Panchel be with me on Saturdays, as long as I am in the yellow-coloured world.

May sweet Mary , together with her friend, deliver me from strangers.

May the Trinity protect me!
May the Trinity defend me!
May the Trinity save me from every hurt, from every danger.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
[b]
May sweet Mary , together with her friend, deliver me from strangers.

Who's this 'friend' then?

Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :

Originally posted by Percy B
'I wonder then if seeing angels - and I mean more than kind people! Is perhaps more common than we may at first think. There are examples, are there not, of angels only being recognised after the event. Maybe some for us are never recognised.'

Fascinating thread – lots of interesting speculation but not much in the way of post-biblical encounters. Does anyone remember the terrible Woolworth's fire in Manchester (England) May 1979 (I think). At the inquest a woman described getting lost in the pitch-black corridors on the second floor (the electrics failed early on and the place filled up with toxic smoke) along with her mother; then finding a room with two other women in it and a window they couldn't open. They were losing consciousness when a man in a white suit came in, took her by the hand and led them all down to safety. She assumed it was a member of staff, kitchen possibly, because of his suit. One of the firemen asked where they'd come from and when she pointed to the door he insisted that it was impossible. The man had disappeared, and it turned out that no-one had seen him at all except this woman. At the time she was convinced he was an ordinary solid man. There was no-one of his description unaccounted for or amongst the dead. I think the report was in the Manchester Evening News, but not sure. I've tried to get the court records, but they're not on line yet. The coroner was the highly respected Leo Gorodkin. I also remember that the woman and her mother had met in Woolworth's cafe to plan a trip to Lourdes.

Originally posted by Gee D:
'Angels are glorious indeed. They are of a different creation to us, but are with us in the Communion of Saints, with whom we join in our songs of never-ending praise to the Creator.'

I remember our vicar, one wet winter's evensong, with a congregation of four, reminding us of that fact, and telling us that the church at that moment was full of angels. Made us feel much better. We sang out for the angels and left with smiles on our four elderly faces.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

That also makes sense, as many people do not see the angels with their flying wings, but just as normal looking human beings. Some do see the angels with their wings as we often have pictures of them, and children in church when they have to dress as angels wear wings too. (Also when we are attached to Sufism, we are told we have wings on us.)

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

I'm ambivalent about this angels. On the one hand, I used to sit in St. Michael's church in Munich and look up at the picture of the Archangel defeating Satan, and pray for help. I want to believe in them.

On the other hand, I have problems with the issue that angels sometimes help and sometimes don't. I remember a story about angels appearing in France during WWI and helping the British (I think) to victory against the odds. I know however of plenty stories of people being defeated in wars with no angelic help (say, with the attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, or on Poland in 1939). We all know plenty cases where help has not been given. I have problems with psalm 91 for that reason, as his angels were nowhere to be seen when Jesus died; in the gas chambers as well.

I know this addresses a much wider point of suffering and an interventionist God.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

I have an interest in angelology because I once wrote a dissertation on Gregory of Nazianzus's anthropology, which ended up being in no small part a discussion of his cosmology, in which angels play a large part.

For Gregory (and he's followed by various others, such as Maximus the Confessor), there is a triple creation: the noetic world (immaterial, creatures of mind), the material world (all creation approachable by the senses), and man (who is both noetic and material, whose very purpose is to unite the two).

So angels are creatures of the noetic world. They are purely nous (mind), not in any way embodied. They are close to God because they are like him in their nature, because God is also purely mind, not flesh. Interestingly, Gregory finds in this the source for their downfall -- the origin of their sin was their pride in being too like God, though they were always absolutely creation and therefore entirely inferior to the creator.

I found this account of angels to be rather helpful. The idea is that there is a whole realm of creation -- just as beautiful (and sinful) but in an entirely different way -- and that we have a claim in it as well because of our double creation as flesh and mind. And of course there is some communication and prayer and love between the two.

Yeah, I like angels [Smile]

Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel

On the other hand, I have problems with the issue that angels sometimes help and sometimes don't. I remember a story about angels appearing in France during WWI and helping the British (I think) to victory against the odds.

I believe the 'Angels of Mons' story was a flight of fancy by a reporter (from The Times, I think) who visualised angels with swords above the army. He didn't actually see them. Nobody saw them. But the story was misread and repeated until it became folklore.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
On the other hand, I have problems with the issue that angels sometimes help and sometimes don't.... I know this addresses a much wider point of suffering and an interventionist God.

Yes, you could ask the same question about God. Sometimes He helps and sometime He doesn't.

I think that something else entirely is going on with both God and angels. They both help continuously - exactly the same with every person, in every situation, all the time and everywhere.

The difference is that the nature of the help is that it is directed at our salvation and at our spiritual welfare. It affects our physical welfare only insofar as helping it would help our spiritual state.

Beyond that, angels and God do not interfere with the stable physical laws of nature, which are the bckground against which free choices are made. Nor do they contravene human freedom - which allows one person to harm another if they wish, and the consequences of human action to be negative ones.

This is why angels are virtually never evident to us, even though they are with us continuously. Only in the rarest of cases do they appear, when the situation demands it or allows for it.

Otherwise we would see that we live surrounded by angels and we would see God continually.

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