Thread: Malicious glee in others' misfortune Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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I have come across this rarely, but it seems to be a genuine human pattern. That someone else is dealing with misfortune (e.g., illness, relationship trouble, bankruptcy, legal troubles etc.), and someone else seems to actually enjoy hearing about it. It seems, from my observation, to be more frequent in situations where the person was perhaps doing better or was more successful than average. There is more than just gossip to this, it is the pleasure taken, subtly, but enjoyed.
Do you think this a common human experience and tendency. Is this a clear demonstration of the subtleness of evil? I think it is. The situation I came across was for a high achieving person to be dealing within something that derailed their current life trajectory and the clear sense that several others liked the fact.
Posted by REALLYMAD (# 17317) on
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The very coda by which TV soap operas survive long term and remain popular.
A daily infusion of constant misery and turmoil, produced for your viewing pleasure. What better way to make you feel better about your own personal baggage than to watch other people suffer more than you? Even if they're fictional.
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I have come across this rarely, but it seems to be a genuine human pattern. That someone else is dealing with misfortune (e.g., illness, relationship trouble, bankruptcy, legal troubles etc.), and someone else seems to actually enjoy hearing about it...
Do you think this a common human experience and tendency?
It's apparently common enough for the Germans...
--Tom Clune
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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I suppose a good deal of the anger directed at Andrew Mitchell is of this nature. Not all perhaps, but a fair slice of it.
Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on
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I was thinking the same thing as tclune, then did just enough research* to determine Merriam-Webster now accepts it as a properly borrowed word into English.
*I googled it. What do you want? This is my lunch hour...
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Very common. Go to any football match.
"You're not singing any more."
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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quote:
It seems, from my observation, to be more frequent in situations where the person was perhaps doing better or was more successful than average.
Well, everyone likes to see the high and mighty taken down a peg or two, no?
You know the Parable of the Vineyard. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. I know it's probably some metaphor about the Kingdom being open to everyone, regardless of time served, but as a straight-out story, it has an element of chuckling at the early hirees who were expecting a big payout at the end.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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What I often notice is the (mis)application in the Western world of the concept of karma to this situation. Karma, in the eastern tradition, as I understand it, is essentially the idea that your actions have consequences. But we like fast and devastating justice, so we often act as if the misfortune is deserved and is actually supernatural punishment for recent bad acts- thus the now quite common western saying, "karma's a bitch."
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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Is it about a 'relief' of jealousy? The higher the feeling of jealousy the more enjoyable the removal of the reason for that uncomfortable feeling?
Maybe.
I know I have felt it ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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What boogie said. Sorry.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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So you're telling me yes? And the Germans are honester about about it because they invented a word for it, we're really not very nice by nature and ready to be mean in our thoughts and feelings. Is it by nature or practice/learning?
Maybe this is one of the core negative things about human beings. Capacity for enjoyment of others' suffering. As I'm feeling the effing bastard just thinking about it, then I layer on the malfeasance by comforting myself that everyone does it.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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quote:
Maybe this is one of the core negative things about human beings. Capacity for enjoyment of others' suffering.
Possibly so. But I'd say that another core negative thing about human beings is the tendency to advertise one's own success.
It can be something as simple and seemingly innocuous as getting a new job at a signficantly higher salary, and subsequently starting to buy more expensive clothes. Assuming your workplace doesn't require wearing clothes above a certain price, the only reason for purchasing the new wardrobe is to let everyone know what income bracket you're in.
Or, in a debate at a party, you feel compelled to mention, in an authoritative tone, that you have a Ph.D in the topic under discussion. Your arguments should stand or fall on their own merits, but hey, it's always nice to let everyone know how well educated you are.
People who do stuff like this(and that probably includes most of us from time to time) are pretty much courting resentment, and shouldn't complain too much when others get a chuckle out of our inevitable downfall.
[ 28. September 2012, 19:28: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
[QB] quote:
Maybe this is one of the core negative things about human beings. Capacity for enjoyment of others' suffering.
Possibly so. But I'd say that another core negative thing about human beings is the tendency to advertise one's own success.
"Pretend" seems more accurate than "advertise".
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Do you think this a common human experience and tendency. Is this a clear demonstration of the subtleness of evil? I think it is.
It seems that it only happens if the person has been idolized by others or has been strutting before the bad situation comes along.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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No, if someone has been jealous of the once-successful now-suffering person, that someone will still experience schadenfreude, no matter how virtuous and unassuming the sufferer has been.
I do think this is very widespread, and a sign of the corruption of our human nature. But I don't think we can get away with excusing ourselves by saying "everybody does it."
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
It can be something as simple and seemingly innocuous as getting a new job at a signficantly higher salary, and subsequently starting to buy more expensive clothes. Assuming your workplace doesn't require wearing clothes above a certain price, the only reason for purchasing the new wardrobe is to let everyone know what income bracket you're in.
But maybe you buy these expensive clothes because you have always wanted them and can finally afford them.
Moo
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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And I'd probably take someone's opinions more seriously if I knew they had a PhD in the topic being discussed.
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very common. Go to any football match.
"You're not singing any more."
*you'll never walk again*
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
And I'd probably take someone's opinions more seriously if I knew they had a PhD in the topic being discussed.
You can get a PhD in schadenfreude? Where do I enrol?
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
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Here
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
And I'd probably take someone's opinions more seriously if I knew they had a PhD in the topic being discussed.
You can get a PhD in schadenfreude? Where do I enrol?
Heck, where do I apply for a faculty position? Finally, a job I am uniquely qualified for!
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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I never understood the appeal of slapstick comedy either. Why is it supposedly funny to see someone else get hurt? But many a comedian has gotten laughs by "slipping on a banana peal" and "falling" in stage.
Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on
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Like the shows where viewers send in their 'hilarious' home videos - mostly of people falling over and getting hurt.
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
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hmm, slapstick can work - just depends on context and timing. Simply using the *banana skin* by itself doesn't make an audience laugh these days.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I never understood the appeal of slapstick comedy either. Why is it supposedly funny to see someone else get hurt? But many a comedian has gotten laughs by "slipping on a banana peal" and "falling" in stage.
And yet, it works. My ex came from a family that used to sit around telling "mom" stories about things mom did to the kids when they were little. We would all sit around and laugh and laugh. There was just something about the environment that it actually took years before I sat back and realized they were really describing emotional abuse. To this day I'm amazed I didn't see it. And neither, apparently, did they-- until we stopped laughing.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I never understood the appeal of slapstick comedy either. Why is it supposedly funny to see someone else get hurt? But many a comedian has gotten laughs by "slipping on a banana peal" and "falling" in stage.
And yet, it works. My ex came from a family that used to sit around telling "mom" stories about things mom did to the kids when they were little. We would all sit around and laugh and laugh. There was just something about the environment that it actually took years before I sat back and realized they were really describing emotional abuse. To this day I'm amazed I didn't see it. And neither, apparently, did they-- until we stopped laughing.
Without knowing the situation could it be that what was going on there was a coping mechanism? By laughing about what had happened to them (I'm assuming that they were laughing about what Mom did to them??) they are refusing to let their experiences hurt them. If they were laughing at the emotional abuse of other children, it would be disturbing.
Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on
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In the novel Hannibal, when Clarice is about to meet the horrific Mason Verger for the first time, Thomas Harris writes:
"There is a common emotion we all recognise and have yet to name - the happy anticipation of being able to feel contempt. Starling saw it in Margot Verger's face."
Not exactly the same, but related I think.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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Proverbs 17:5 "Whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished".
My grand-children and I are in big trouble, because we just about wet ourselves watching people hurt themselves on home video shows.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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Yeah but "hurt themselves," on home videos usually doesn't result in serious injury, or at least I hope that's what fans are telling themselves. (I can't watch.)
The soap opera people are usually getting caught cheating and all the people on the "Twilight Zone," seemed to be getting their just desserts.
The really bad kind of pleasure in other's misfortune is the kind that comes from either disliking, or being jealous of, that person and I think it's really pretty nasty.
One of the reasons I left my last church was a sermon the pastor preached that just dripped with that kind of glee. It started with a diatribe against "permissive parenting," and blamed poor old Dr. Spock for it all, ignoring the fact that Spock's books never specifically said "Don not spank," but just tried to get the WWII generation to quit wailing on their kids for the slightest infraction. Then, to prove his point about what a bad parent Dr. Spock was, the pastor told us with obvious satisfaction, that Dr Spock's own son committed suicide.
[OT. In reality it was his grandson and the young man, who had schizophrenia, had jumped off a building. I'm sure my ex-pastor believes that schizophrenia is the result of bad parenting, too, so the sermon would have been even worse if he had been better informed so I'm grateful for that.]
Schadenfreude may be natural to humans but it's ugly.
Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
One of the reasons I left my last church was a sermon the pastor preached that just dripped with that kind of glee. It started with a diatribe against "permissive parenting," and blamed poor old Dr. Spock for it all, ignoring the fact that Spock's books never specifically said "Don not spank," but just tried to get the WWII generation to quit wailing on their kids for the slightest infraction. Then, to prove his point about what a bad parent Dr. Spock was, the pastor told us with obvious satisfaction, that Dr Spock's own son committed suicide.
[OT. In reality it was his grandson and the young man, who had schizophrenia, had jumped off a building. I'm sure my ex-pastor believes that schizophrenia is the result of bad parenting, too, so the sermon would have been even worse if he had been better informed so I'm grateful for that.]
Schadenfreude may be natural to humans but it's ugly.
Schadenfreude knows no bounds. We all suffer the temptation of wanting to feel superior and immune, myself included. Christians aren't immune as evidenced in the glee some take in claiming those who suffer illness, loss of a loved one, financial ruin, etc, are suffering because of sin in their life, often without a hint of what that supposed sin is. There's no excuse for that glee even when sin is in some way involved.
Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Yeah but "hurt themselves," on home videos usually doesn't result in serious injury, or at least I hope that's what fans are telling themselves. (I can't watch.)
Interesting. Sometimes the pratfalls do look quite nasty, and I've watched with a self-righteous glow of amazement at the things people can laugh at. Is that double-schadenfreude?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I never understood the appeal of slapstick comedy either. Why is it supposedly funny to see someone else get hurt? But many a comedian has gotten laughs by "slipping on a banana peal" and "falling" in stage.
And yet, it works. My ex came from a family that used to sit around telling "mom" stories about things mom did to the kids when they were little. We would all sit around and laugh and laugh. There was just something about the environment that it actually took years before I sat back and realized they were really describing emotional abuse. To this day I'm amazed I didn't see it. And neither, apparently, did they-- until we stopped laughing.
Without knowing the situation could it be that what was going on there was a coping mechanism? By laughing about what had happened to them (I'm assuming that they were laughing about what Mom did to them??) they are refusing to let their experiences hurt them. If they were laughing at the emotional abuse of other children, it would be disturbing.
No, clearly it was a coping mechanism-- in the form of denial (especially since mom was sitting there yucking it up right along with them). It honestly never occurred to my ex that the behavior was abusive until I asked "what if someone did that to our kid?". But honestly, it took awhile for me to see it too. There's just something about that slapstick ha-ha-ha response that papers over the pain in a way that's oddly deceptive. As you suggest, that probably has a useful function for awhile-- helping you set aside the pain until you're ready to face it. But it also can cause you to replay the patterns if you don't face them at some point.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Proverbs 17:5 "Whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished".
But be careful not to take joy in that divine retribution! Schadenfreude whiplash.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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Further on the Germans and schadenfreude, there is German wikipedia article about the "inner pigdog", which I think probably equates to "inner bastard (or asshole)". We've all heard of the "inner child". Maybe we all need to embrace our "inner asshole" as well?
Links: Statue of "inneren Schweinehund in Bonn, and German wikipedia page (in German).
My partial and poor translation to self suggests that the use of the term is different, it refers to lack of self discipline and willingness to stand up for principles and commitments. But I like the idea of transmuting it to the bastard nature that resides within each of us.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There was just something about the environment that it actually took years before I sat back and realized they were really describing emotional abuse.
A coping mechanism?
clearly it was a coping mechanism-- in the form of denial (especially since mom was sitting there yucking it up right along with them). ...As you suggest, that probably has a useful function for awhile-- helping you set aside the pain until you're ready to face it. But it also can cause you to replay the patterns if you don't face them at some point.
I think (but I'm no psychologist) there may be more to it -- not just coping but -- can I loosely call it brainwashing, cultural training what not to "see"?
I use to have tapes of some really amusing sermons -- until one day I heard what was really being said: It was all viciously anti-woman, but said with a chuckle instead of a snarl so you didn't "hear" the anti-woman message consciously, only unconsciously.
I think the reason I didn't "hear" it (you know, women drivers, women can't do anything right, those jokes), was because the 50s in USA was a very anti-woman time, most jobs and careers were closed to women, the university I attended in the 60s required female applicants to have higher grades and SATs than males, women were supposed to get married and stay home (unless they were "lower class"), business deals were commonly done in clubs that barred women, a raped woman was grilled in court about her sexual life and if she'd ever had any she had consented to the rapist. Very anti-female culture. Women were openly paid less because they were "of course" worth less.
In that negative environment, saying negative things about women was only "telling the truth," the only difference between serious telling and humorous telling was how it was said.
Because it was "truth" you grew up with you didn't distance yourself, take a good look at just what was being said, ask if your whole culture was wrong, is this playful or destructive? You were taught from an early age that it was amusing. All your life if you dared protest or question you were accused of "lacking a sense of humor."
We all have a strong need to be accepted, so we slide into the culture instead of being alert to it's ills. Family culture, larger social culture. Especially as children there is no escape. Slaves too, even today we hear about blacks having internalized the cultural insistence of that era they aren't as good as whites.
More than denial/coping, the blindness is from the cultural training what to not see, and that can be really hard to shake, break out of, especially if the rest of the family is still enforcing it.
Just a thought.
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Further on the Germans and schadenfreude, there is German wikipedia article about the "inner pigdog", which I think probably equates to "inner bastard (or asshole)". We've all heard of the "inner child". Maybe we all need to embrace our "inner asshole" as well?
Links: Statue of "inneren Schweinehund in Bonn, and German wikipedia page (in German).
My partial and poor translation to self suggests that the use of the term is different, it refers to lack of self discipline and willingness to stand up for principles and commitments. But I like the idea of transmuting it to the bastard nature that resides within each of us.
In various mythologies, hybrids with the body of an animal and the head of a human denoted the strength of the animal with the mind of man and were generally thinking, sometimes even noble, creatures (e.g. centaurs). Those with the bodies of humans and the heads of animals (e.g. the Minotaur), the reverse.
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