Ship of Fools: Murdering your own children

Thread: Murdering your own children Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

This may be a very short-lived thread as I'm sure there are no real answers.

In recent days and weeks we've been hearing stories about people committing suicide after murdering their children. It seems to me that a parent killing their own children in this way breaches one of the most accepted moral boundaries in humanity.

Other than repulsion, my feelings are in wondering how on earth someone gets into that situation. Is it that there is a sudden, murderous spate of mental illness? Is it that the parent has somehow managed to convince themselves that their situation is so dire that killing their own children is a lesser-evil than the alternatives? Is it to bring pain onto an ex-partner for a perceived wrong?

Possibly all of the above.

I was thinking of posting this in hell, but I'm too sad to rant. I'm not sure what else to say.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

[Frown]

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

I think for most of us, killing any child - let alone one's own is so unspeakably evil and beyond what we would contemplate as to be totally inexplicable. But the fact is this; the majority of child murders are committed by parents.

[Votive]

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

In the cases where suicide followed that connection is very telling. The narrowing down of options until only one seems to remain and the years of pain until continuing as you are is unbearable.

Posted by Gracie (# 3870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:

Other than repulsion, my feelings are in wondering how on earth someone gets into that situation. Is it that there is a sudden, murderous spate of mental illness? Is it that the parent has somehow managed to convince themselves that their situation is so dire that killing their own children is a lesser-evil than the alternatives? Is it to bring pain onto an ex-partner for a perceived wrong?

In my capacity as prison chaplain, I know several people who have tried and failed to commit suicide having managed to kill their children. According to those who have talked to me about it, in their perception at that time, it was the kindest thing for them to do.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracie:
In my capacity as prison chaplain, I know several people who have tried and failed to commit suicide having managed to kill their children. According to those who have talked to me about it, in their perception at that time, it was the kindest thing for them to do.

Fascinating. Do you mean that killing the children was the kindest thing they could do?

And would you say that this objectively has any merit at all (hard for me to imagine a situation where that can possibly be true) or just that the offender has ex post facto decided that it must be true - otherwise why would he have killed them?

Again, maybe there is no answer to this.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

Apparently in ancient Greece, children were the property of the parents and could be disposed of at will. Less likely to happen to boys, perhaps, but that would not be the only culture in which it was acceptable to expose new-born girls. How this might link to killing children whom one has presumably grown to love, I don't know.

Given that the parents of these particular children were separated, it sounds as if there could be an element of punishing the mother.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Fascinating. Do you mean that killing the children was the kindest thing they could do?

And would you say that this objectively has any merit at all (hard for me to imagine a situation where that can possibly be true) or just that the offender has ex post facto decided that it must be true - otherwise why would he have killed them?

Again, maybe there is no answer to this.

"Kindest thing to do" in their minds I think. It's easy to soberly wonder how anyone could think that, after all, as we sit in our armchairs, we think that it would have been better for the parent to just top themselves and somebody else will look after the children.

But we cannot know how everyone else's mind works.

Posted by Gracie (# 3870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Fascinating. Do you mean that killing the children was the kindest thing they could do?

I didn't say that it was objective the kindest thing they could do, that's why I wrote "in their perception at that time".

It would be hard to argue for any objective merit to such an act - the people involved don't do that after the event. It may be hard for most of to imagine the depths of despair that could lead to someone who dearly loves their children thinking that, but unfortunately that kind of despair can and does exist.

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

There's an interesting piece just here about familial murder, which I was reading earlier, initially focused more on the language used to describe such happenings. It preceded the case you're talking about, but is relevant nonetheless. It includes the following observation:

quote:
There are no statistics on it in the UK, because we do not care to count them. Research from the University of Manchester showed 39 such events between 1996 and 2005 - an average of about five a year, or one every 10 weeks.

There have been six in the past nine months which made the news, and perhaps a few more that didn't. That's one every six weeks, on average.

Also there is:

quote:
But it will keep happening and for as long as the economy is struggling there will be a rising number of them. A 10-year study in the US found that the rate of family annihilations increased in the same proportions as the rate of unemployment.

There's a link to the source of that statistic.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Years ago I read an article about suicide in Japan. It said that a mother who committed suicide and did not kill her children first was considered unloving.

Moo

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

In the context of severe depression, I think I can understand it very well.

In the context of wanting to punish a surviving parent, I cannot understand it at all.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I think I see three reasons for these horrible murders.

(1) The parent is so mentally ill as to be thinking outside reality. For example, Andrea Yates thought that the only way to save her children from Hell was to send them straight to Heaven while they were still young and innocent.

(2) Punish the spouse. Men who feel betrayed by their wives often favor this "reasoning." Another reason for this sort of man might be the possessiveness he feels about his family. He's telling her new man, "You can't have my wife or my children."

(3) Shortsightedness. Most suicidal people have trouble visualizing the future. They can't believe they will ever be happy again, find another love, get a job, etc. They also can't picture their children going on past the initial grief of losing their parents. So they kill them to keep them from that "suffering."

Whatever their reasoning, I find these things so hard to read about.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Suicidal depression changes the way you think and in your right mind you would not have those thoughts - but killing children too is something else.

The article passer linked to was suggesting it had to do with control and linked it to domestic violence, partly I would guess because some of the recently very public cases were. From the article,

quote:
Domestic violence has to stop being a private matter, and start being something we all discuss. Male and female victims need to know it's not their fault, they don't have to stay, and it's not just a silly row that got out of hand. It's bullying, and if you wouldn't let it happen to a friend or child you shouldn't let it happen to you. If the victims face it head on then so might the police.

which is a bit sweeping because we know so little about domestic violence that we've got new reporting requirements - also in response to recent cases.

Interestingly there's also an emphasis in that report in looking at male victims of domestic violence.

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

Children in families whose parents are going through a seperation or a divorce get very anxious about these incidents. (....i could rant but won't....)

And where in our society today, do people go when they start to imagine the unimaginable?

Do we have a way of saying Stop Me?

In theory we do, in practice, it's not quite so straightforward. Like the earlier poster,i would agree that sadly many who take this step do truly feel(at the time) it is for the best.

.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracie:
According to those who have talked to me about it, in their perception at that time, it was the kindest thing for them to do.

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
...or just that the offender has ex post facto decided that it must be true - otherwise why would he have killed them?

I expect it is often a post hoc rationalization.

Many of the news reports I read suggest explanation (2) of Twilight's list. Others seem more like (1), but those seem to be less common to me.

Posted by watervole (# 17174) on :

I have heard such situations described as suicide involving the children, or family suicide, in that the person concerned seeks to end suffering for the whole family. That may be a disordered perception but it may well be the subjective truth as from the perpetrators viewpoint.

Anyone who has been through a serious depression will know that perceptions are different in such a state.

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Years ago I read an article about suicide in Japan. It said that a mother who committed suicide and did not kill her children first was considered unloving.

Japan has a culture that views suicide much differently than others. A good, but triggering article giving an overview of the epidemic in that country is available here.

Not being from that culture I don't understand it, and again, not being from that culture, I don't know how to address it other than with the wordless cry from the heart.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Japan has a culture that views suicide much differently than others. A good, but triggering article giving an overview of the epidemic in that country is available here.

Not being from that culture I don't understand it, and again, not being from that culture, I don't know how to address it other than with the wordless cry from the heart.

That is an interesting article which made a lot of sense. I hadn't thought of the whole 'honour' angle. There certainly is amongst many people an idea that killing yourself is honourable, but I still think that is a bit of a leap to saying that killing your own children is also honourable.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

I think that if you start to believe that disgrace is the worst possible outcome for you or your family, and that honour is to be valued beyond all other ties between humans and beyond all rights of individuals, then it becomes logical.

(Logical based on totally twisted beliefs in my view).

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by Gracie:
According to those who have talked to me about it, in their perception at that time, it was the kindest thing for them to do.

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
...or just that the offender has ex post facto decided that it must be true - otherwise why would he have killed them?
I expect it is often a post hoc rationalization.

I doubt this very much. I'm not saying it doesn't happen occasionally, but I can very easily imagine a suicidally depressed person having such impaired judgement that they truly think it would be sparing their family some trauma. I have been depressed, but thankfully never to the point of seriously considering suicide. If I had ever had those thoughts then I think that considering the effect that suicide would have had on my family would have played a role in changing my mind. Other people reach unimaginable depths of despair and so I can understand (not condone, obviously) how they could take the logic one step further and take their family with them. Really, really tragic.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

During World War 2, Japanese commanding officers who lost battles frequently committed suicide to atone. Suicide was seen as erasing all guilt.

Moo

[ 02. October 2012, 21:13: Message edited by: Moo ]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I can sort of think of two "reasons" -- extending some human traits to an extreme. Would take someone more experienced than me to know if either of these are emotionally real in some lives.

1. There's no money, no food, my children are going to starve, better they die by my loving hands than they suffer like that for a prolonged time. Variation -- we are trapped in this hopeless mess of battering/drunken home, migrant jobless life with no education for the kids, there is no way out and no future but this misery, death is kinder for us all. Or, it would be cruel for me to kill myself only, leaving the kids to fend for themselves without what little protection I've been able to give.

2. A parent who identifies so closely with her children she feels like they are part of her, if seeking death for herself the lack of separation of identity "naturally" takes them into death with her.

Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I can sort of think of two "reasons" -- extending some human traits to an extreme. Would take someone more experienced than me to know if either of these are emotionally real in some lives.

1. There's no money, no food, my children are going to starve, better they die by my loving hands than they suffer like that for a prolonged time. Variation -- we are trapped in this hopeless mess of battering/drunken home, migrant jobless life with no education for the kids, there is no way out and no future but this misery, death is kinder for us all. Or, it would be cruel for me to kill myself only, leaving the kids to fend for themselves without what little protection I've been able to give.

I think that's the case in at least some cases.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
In the context of severe depression, I think I can understand it very well.

In the context of wanting to punish a surviving parent, I cannot understand it at all.

Me, too. Though the one I really can't get my head around is where eg, a dad (maybe a very young man) kills the baby or toddler because he's jealous of the attention the infant gets; or perhaps a new mum (not always young either) neglects the child to the point of death, because it's getting in the way of a new relationship, or was generally unwanted in the family circle.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Sometimes, the parent finds the world to be such a terrible place (whether objectively, due to wiring/chemical glitches, deep emotional pain, etc.) that they think the most loving thing they can do for the child is to release them from this world.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

The husband of my cousin murdered his wife and their daughter, He meant to kill himself too but after making the preparations he chickened out.

His stated motive was that he couldn't face telling them he was in financial ruin and felt that God had abandoned him.

[ 03. October 2012, 03:29: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Cases like Jonestown and Masada might come under this, too.

Posted by Makepiece (# 10454) on :

One thing I find very strange about the media coverage of these killings, which took place in the UK, is that they don't seem to try and attempt to answer the question 'what does this say about our society?'.

By way of contrast when similar killings take place in Turkey the BBC, with scientific precision, explains what us wrong with Turkish society: "But while it is true that most such killings are carried out in conservative Muslim communities, the practice is linked more to the customs of this region of Turkey, than to religious belief."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8501181.stm

I'm not saying that the BBC are wrong to criticise Turkish society but do we really understand more about their society than we do about our own? Is it time for the UK to take a long hard look at itself?

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I see U.S. reports of parents murdering their children and then (sometimes) themselves in a wide variety of circumstances.

1. Immature mothers with no coping skills frustrated beyond endurance by the demands of childrearing. In a rage over whatever's gone wrong, they kill the child almost by accident -- shaking, beating, etc.

My theory (unsupported because there are usually no survivors) is that, in the event, the parent is so horrified by what s/he's done, s/he then takes his/her own life.

2. Frustration with child behavior due to inappropriate expectations (often with a religious component): that is, the parent expects things of the kid that the kid simply cannot manage (I see this a lot in families with children who have cognitive impairments). With little support or guidance, and lots of isolation (families with these kids are often virtually shunned), some severe and/or wildly inapporpriate punishment is administered by the parent which results in injury or even death to the child. The guilt leads the parent to attempt suicide.

3. The old "disobedience means the child is defying God" and the "spare the rod & spoil the child" issues come up.

IMO, child abuse is virtually institutionally-ingrained in US culture. And often that abuse leads to child death, though far less often to parental suicide.

I am not a parent and have no plan to become one. One of my parents was violent and phsyically abusive (for reasons too complicated to go into here, but based on a medical condition), and the track record of kids raised with violence is fairly horrific. My parent did not experience remorse or regret, but was pretty adept at denial. My sibs and I were able to offer one another support, though.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust myself to do child-rearing.

[ 06. October 2012, 20:54: Message edited by: Porridge ]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I can fully understand it. Not that I would act on it, as my depression is pretty well under control at the moment, but it has not always been.

When I have been especially depressed I have considered suicide. Not often, but it has been known. I have also considered, when my kids were younger, that I could not let them grow up in such a fucked up world as I saw around me. I could not bear to see their innocence destroyed by reality. Bear in mind that to be considering suicide usually requires a slightly warped view of reality (yes, only slightly, which is a sobering thought itself).

For many depressives, suicide seems like the only way to escape the pain and anguish. Taking the children too can see like the only way to prevent them from experiencing this pain. It makes total sense.

Of course, other people have more practical and rational reasons. But these make sense to me.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

Some years ago a friend told me that when he was really suicidal he had planed to kill his baby son as well. When his next bout of depression came he killed himself, but not his son.

In his right mind he was a loving and gentle person, but his depression overwhelmed him, despite his telling me he had the best professional help available [Votive]

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