Ship of Fools: Swearing and parenting

Thread: Swearing and parenting Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=023927

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

I use quite bad language when I'm emotional, or when I choose to express a strong view.

But I don't swear in front of my children. And I would discourage them from using what I view as bad language if I heard it.

Clearly I'm a hypocrite. But which bit of my hypocrisy is the right bit and which bit the hypocritical bit?

Should I in fact not mind if my children use bad language, provided they observe certain social norms (e.g. not swearing in front of or at certain authority figures)?

Or am I simply demonstrating that in fact I realise swearing is wrong and I shouldn't do it?

And I'd be interested to know how the age boundaries work. I'd be very shocked to hear 5 year old children swearing, and not really shocked at all to hear teenagers swearing (although I'd discourage it in my own children).

[ 04. October 2012, 22:45: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

As my children got into their teenage years we discussed language and how we need to moderate what we say dependent on who is listening. And that isn't just about swearing but the kinds of words we use and whether what we say will make us sound stupid to the people we're talking to.

It is a bit more subtle than 'don't say that' and possibly is a bit direct, but that is how we do it in our family.

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

quote:
Should I in fact not mind if my children use bad language, provided they observe certain social norms (e.g. not swearing in front of or at certain authority figures)?

This.

No point in over-reacting to them swearing as you'll just build a barrier, because they'll do it when you aren't around anyway, in their own social circles. Almost rites of passage stuff. Younger teenagers have so much to deal with socially, at such a vulnerable stage in their lives, that any barrier that prevents them communicating with their parents should be avoided. It's always better that they tell you things, even if you don't like what they tell you or how.

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

An interesting question--I know my own swearing is rather contextual.

I work in a craft/manufacturing industry, and in that situation I can swear with the best of them (in that sometimes rather vivid Southern way). Yet, people who see me in a different social setting have no idea my mouth can be that foul.

The odd thing (to me) is that I don't have to think about making the switch from one to the other. It's just part of what is appropriate to the situation.

crossposted with lots of others making the same point!

I've never been a parent and I obviously won't be one at this point in my life, but I would expect swearing would be most naturally "taught" in a manner which made it plain that it was appropriate in some scenarios and inappropriate in others (not unlike discussing politics, perhaps).

Good luck with that--somehow I seem to have learned that sense of appropriateness, but I really have no idea how it was taught to me.

[ 03. October 2012, 18:07: Message edited by: Organ Builder ]

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I use quite bad language when I'm emotional, or when I choose to express a strong view.

But I don't swear in front of my children. And I would discourage them from using what I view as bad language if I heard it.

Clearly I'm a hypocrite.

If having aspirations for your children that exceed your accomplishments is hypocritical, may we all be hypocrites.

--Tom Clune

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

It all depends on the context. Swearing has it's place. On the one hand I don't want my son swearing at school or in front of grandma. On the other It's not correct to claim that one should never swear. As with so much of life it's a grey area and you just have to find the balance. How you communicate that balance to a child? That's the trick.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

Well I recently discovered I'm a moral consequentialist, hence have no problem discussing with my children what happens if they do the wrong thing. If you write in the way you speak, the teachers will think x. If you speak like that in front of Grandma, she'll think y. If you speak to those people the way you speak to your friends, they'll think z about you.

Or, as I've also explained, you can choose to be consistent in your manner and language and find that the majority of people will not be able to understand you. You limit yourself if you are not able to communicate with different kinds of people in different fora.

Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :

My approach is to try to use no foul or rude language around the children until they are old enough to understand appropriate context, then gradually start using words like fart and bum when they are 9, progressing to bollocks, crap, shit, sod and bugger when they are, say, 15 years old. I will not go further than that though, because I don't use any worse language myself, although my husband claims he once heard me say the Eff word but I strenuously deny it.

YMMV though, evidenced by the fact that we recently had a debate over appropriate use of the word "turd" which husband claims is highly offensive, and I see as inoccuous and merely descriptive.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

posted by long ranger:

quote:

And that isn't just about swearing but the kinds of words we use and whether what we say will make us sound stupid to the people we're talking to.

There's the nub: it's a class thing (for most people).

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
There's the nub: it's a class thing (for most people).

It is a group thing rather than a class thing, I'd say. I've known mild working class postmen who don't swear at all, I've known wealthy professionals who lob fucks into every sentence.

In fact, the only consistent group I know that limits the use of the coarsest Anglo-Saxons are Evangelical Christians (who represent various classes), but they tend to fill conversation with various other types of religious jargon. Indeed it was a bit of a shock when I was a teenager to hear a Christian leader who swore like a trooper.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I told my sons they could begin to swear when they heard me swear. My son swore aged 15 and I said 'Hey, what about our deal?' - he said 'Dad swore yesterday'

But that wasn't the deal!

I think youngsters need to know when it's appropriate to swear and when it's not.

Swearing is a very useful expletive tool in extreme circumstances - a safety valve. Used in everyday language it loses its effectiveness imo.

If I swear my friends/colleagues/family KNOW things are serious, because I hardly ever do.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

I told my kids,in effect, "There are no words that are bad in themselves, but there are words that can cause embarrassment or offense to some people, and good manners require that we try to avoid causing embarrassment or offense. So it's important to be mindful of how the language we choose is likely to affect others."

Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :

I was taught more-or-less what Timothy the Obscure taught his kids.

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
There's the nub: it's a class thing (for most people).
It is a group thing rather than a class thing, I'd say. I've known mild working class postmen who don't swear at all, I've known wealthy professionals who lob fucks into every sentence.

Odd. I would have said that it was both a class and gender thing, which means that of course upper class women swear all the time, upper class men swear a lot, and working class men don't swear at all (or at least not around me).

Of course, then you get into all the variations of what counts as swearing.*

*I was told, for example, that referring to my period in any way, shape, or form was both shameful and swearing; unfortunately this rule coexisted with a rule stating that I wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom between the hours of eight and three. These two rules could not coexist.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I never swear verbally. Some shipmates might find that a little odd, but it is just something.

Both of my kids have, as teenagers, used the F word to me. I let it ride - they are not the first or only people to use such language in my presence. I deal with the issues behind the language and the anger.

The problem is that they will hear and probably use such language at secondary school (at least), and so to pretend to be shocked or to assume that they won't is naive. I don't encourage it, but I accept that sometimes strong language is the only way for some people to express how they feel.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
As with so much of life it's a grey area and you just have to find the balance. How you communicate that balance to a child? That's the trick.

So one potential guideline might be to only tolerate any swearing at an age when you think a child can deal with grey areas and finding balance.

My experience is that most children and teenagers don't do balance very well. They tend to want black and white positions on things.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
As with so much of life it's a grey area and you just have to find the balance. How you communicate that balance to a child? That's the trick.
So one potential guideline might be to only tolerate any swearing at an age when you think a child can deal with grey areas and finding balance.

Good principle [Smile]

Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
My experience is that most children and teenagers don't do balance very well. They tend to want black and white positions on things.

Well, right. That's why you don't swear around them. Unfortunately teenagers will pick up the words anyway, and you have to figure out how you'll handle it.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

Oddly enough I find that easy enough. A proportionate disapproving response, moving on to talking through whatever the real issue comes quite naturally to me. Almost as naturally as does the hypocrisy of doing it myself.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

We make distinctions between vulgarity and blasphemy. Blasphemy is always off limits in my house, but vulgarity crops up quite a bit, mainly from the adults. The principle I'm trying to teach my kid is charity--that is, don't say it if it's going to cause upset to an innocent person (that wouldn't be Grandma, though, she swears like a trooper).

Posted by Morgan (# 15372) on :

I rarely swear, didn't swear in front of my child and have never heard her swear. I doubt she has a different practice elsewhere but if so obviously can pick time and place.

As a teacher (in loco parentis) in schools where swearing was the norm for most students, the policy was also to be aware of time and place.

Students left a swearing-free zone around anyone who might object (generally teachers, parents and school visitors). The policy for school trips was no hassle for reactional swearing of the stubbed toe variety but no conversational or abusive swearing at all outside the school grounds.

This seemed to work for all concerned.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

A lot of people seem to treat swearing as situational - ie they will do it in some contexts (social, work) but not in others (with children, in church). That tends to suggest that they can turn swearing on and off at will.

Why do people swear? Because they've hit their finger (soemtimes) to add a bit of colour to a conversation(more likely), to impress or to be a part of the "gang"?(most likely).

When you swear all the time, even in church or in a sermon if you preach, then there's little chance for a charge of hypocrisy. Otherwise, you're making a choice and if you desist out of social fears or out of not wanting to give a bad example to your children, then you are a hypocrite.

I worked as a labourer for far too long to be impressed by any swear words. I joined in for years but now, for me, the counter cultural act is not to swear and I don't.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
A lot of people seem to treat swearing as situational - ie they will do it in some contexts (social, work) but not in others (with children, in church). That tends to suggest that they can turn swearing on and off at will.

Why do people swear? Because they've hit their finger (soemtimes) to add a bit of colour to a conversation(more likely), to impress or to be a part of the "gang"?(most likely).

Frequently it is a dialect and a form of punctuation. I don't think many people are directly doing it to impress anyone, just conforming to the expectations within the social situation within which they are communicating.

quote:
When you swear all the time, even in church or in a sermon if you preach, then there's little chance for a charge of hypocrisy. Otherwise, you're making a choice and if you desist out of social fears or out of not wanting to give a bad example to your children, then you are a hypocrite.

I don't accept this. We all moderate our language depending on the situation. Observe the things people say to each other in a church and then observe the same conversation in a pub. The language is usually quite different.

quote:
I worked as a labourer for far too long to be impressed by any swear words. I joined in for years but now, for me, the counter cultural act is not to swear and I don't.

Or, as I said above, you are no longer trying to communicate in that group so your language has changed.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That tends to suggest that they can turn swearing on and off at will.

If we were machines then yes, but humans aren't like that.

I witnessed the slightly explosive behaviour my son used to exhibit on return from school. He had been on good behaviour all day, was now tired, and often had an outburst in the 30mins after getting home.

To have taken the line that he could hold it together at school, therefore he could carry on holding it together while at home wouldn't have been productive.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
[QUOTE]

1. Frequently it is a dialect and a form of punctuation. I don't think many people are directly doing it to impress anyone, just conforming to the expectations within the social situation within which they are communicating.

2. I don't accept this. We all moderate our language depending on the situation. Observe the things people say to each other in a church and then observe the same conversation in a pub. The language is usually quite different.

3. Or, as I said above, you are no longer trying to communicate in that group so your language has changed.

Thanks - a few thoughts ....

1. Conformity then ... I've an in built non conformist meter these days. I agree that people use swear words as punctuation but why? Have you ever tried asking them what the words mean and watching the embarassment??

2. Choice of language then ..... I presume you mean people are more likely to swear in the pub. Why does this have to be so? If swearing's ok there, why don't we have lessons in it for 5 year olds who, after all, will soon be in pubs hearing it anyway?

3. I'm still in that group from time to time: missed edit -- should read "I've worked" not "I worked". Doesn't seem to cause me any problems in communicating or result in social or work isolation anyway.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
[QUOTE]

1. If we were machines then yes, but humans aren't like that.

2. To have taken the line that he could hold it together at school, therefore he could carry on holding it together while at home wouldn't have been productive.

1. I agree to a certain extent. Yet we have to control other things (speed in cars, queueing in shops etc) why not our language as well.

Your response would cover the issue if people swore all the time - most don't - so it suggests that they can exrecise a degree of self regulation but on occasion and in certain contexts actively choose not to. Why not choose to break the mould and not swear? Why be part of the crowd?

2. Why not? What makes the two places so different when it comes to language and behaviour (and manners)? Presumably he doesn't have to hold together at home what he does at school so the situational aspects of swearing in that example don't really work.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Thanks - a few thoughts ....

1. Conformity then ... I've an in built non conformist meter these days. I agree that people use swear words as punctuation but why? Have you ever tried asking them what the words mean and watching the embarassment??

As with many forms of communication, the actual meaning of words is irrelevant and changes with context.

quote:
2. Choice of language then ..... I presume you mean people are more likely to swear in the pub. Why does this have to be so? If swearing's ok there, why don't we have lessons in it for 5 year olds who, after all, will soon be in pubs hearing it anyway?

Actually I wasn't just talking about swearing, but the kinds of language (including the sorts of words, the syntax and the jargon) changes on the context. Your point ignores the obvious fact that people usually change language with context.

quote:
3. I'm still in that group from time to time: missed edit -- should read "I've worked" not "I worked". Doesn't seem to cause me any problems in communicating or result in social or work isolation anyway.

Right. Well, I suspect your relationships are more strained than they might be, then.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
2. Why not?

Because it's not how humans can be expected to operate. "You've concentrated all day at work, why can't you concentrate on this now" wouldn't be a sensible concern. Likewise standards of behaviour change (deteriorate, if you like) when we relax. It is unrealistic to expect people to do x for another 4hrs after getting home on the basis that they have been able to do x for 8hrs during the day.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

One of the interesting things is that homophones are not regarded as swearing. A word can have exactly the same pronunciation as a vulgar one and be OK in polite society.

Take the term could not which is commonly in speech abreviated to couldn't. Locally it is further abreviated by dialect speakers and many others with the local accent to cun't, exactly the same pronunciation as when these same people are referring to part of the feminine anatomy. If they were to say, "I cun't do that," people would not even be aware that the C word had been uttered, because in context it hasn't.

Context is everything.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

I agree that people use swear words as punctuation but why?

Because that's how language works. Spoken more than written.

quote:

Have you ever tried asking them what the words mean and watching the embarassment??

What exactly do the words "have" and "the" mean in that sentence?

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I use quite bad language when I'm emotional, or when I choose to express a strong view.

But I don't swear in front of my children. And I would discourage them from using what I view as bad language if I heard it.

Clearly I'm a hypocrite.

You are not a hypocrite in the slightest. You are teaching them what - in your own opinion and practice - swearing is about. Namely, something that happens when emotions or circumstances overwhelm fairly strong inhibitions, thereby signifying precisely this situation through word usage. Simply put, when you say "Fuck this shit!" then you are of the opinion that something is going very wrong, and everybody who knows you will realize this instantly and react accordingly. Whereas this would not be the case for someone who uses "fuck" and "shit" almost as regularly as "the".

How can you teach your children to have the same verbal facility that you have? By building up strong inhibitions against foul language in them through regular boundary setting - and, less consciously, by providing the rare example of how such inhibitions may get broken, through your own outbursts (of which they will eventually see some). You are hence doing perfectly fine, if you intend your children to become like you in this regard. And hoping for your children to become like you is in general your good right as a parent.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Kids and swearing is like building a sandcastle at the high water line on the beach. You don't need to tell the sea where it can go; all you can do is try to not make it go in certain places, by vigorous piling of sand, and no guarantee you'll be successful.

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

I'm really not sure it's particularly hypocritical to use some forms of speech (whether swear words or something else) in front of some people and not in front of others, or in some situations and not in others. So, for example, to call swearing in your home hypocritical when you wouldn't swear when you're preaching isn't necessarily a contradiction: sermons are a particular type of speech, with their own particular ways of using words, their own particular language. I would never talk to my wife, for example, in the way I would preach to a congregation. Similarly, I would never preach using the same language I would when I was visiting one of the members of the church. I don't think that's hypocritical, as long as in each situation I'm not trying to pretend I'm something I'm not.

I think it's more to do with appropriateness. You may argue swearing is never appropriate; in theory I'd probably agree, though I have sworn from time to time (which may well be hypocritical [Hot and Hormonal]

). So I can't think of an example when it would be appropriate to swear in a sermon (yes, I know there's the Tony Campolo example - but something like that would just seem forced and wrong coming from someone like me). I can't think of a situation when it would be appropriate to swear in front when I was visiting a church member. It did feel very appropriate to swear when I mowed over the cable of the lawnmower the other week - less so the fact that my two children were with me (I think the fact that I nearly electrocuted myself is a reasonable excuse...).

What I mean is, we all use different language in different ways in different situations. Not every style of language is appropriate in every situation, even if it isn't swearing as such. What's more important (ISTM) is ensuring that we have a sense of what is and what isn't appropriate to say and seeking to instill that, somehow, in our children.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

None of you are talking about swearing. You're just discussing the use of foul language.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And hoping for your children to become like you is in general your good right as a parent.

Something of a right, more of a responsibility, and deeply scary all at once.

As tclune says I might also aspire for them to be better than me.

I think perhaps one defence from a hypocrisy charge is the distinction between "Wash out your foul mouth, those are disgraceful words" and "It isn't appropriate for you to say that here. Do you understand why?".

Which is part of what many of you are saying, I think, just in different words.

I'm also mindful of the sermon on the mount and the implication that the intent to abuse or hate is as serious an issue (if not more so) as whether the word chosen to express that hatred is on a list of prohibited words or not.

Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :

I don't usually swear myself, and if I have children in future, I would discourage them from swearing.

But I think context is key, and there's a whole spectrum: if someone hits their thumb with a hammer and they let slip something less than polite, that's an understandable reaction!

But swearing at a person (except in extreme mitigating circumstances), or thoughtlessly dropping in expletives every other sentence, are less justifiable, in my opinion.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
I don't usually swear myself, and if I have children in future, I would discourage them from swearing.

But I think context is key, and there's a whole spectrum: if someone hits their thumb with a hammer and they let slip something less than polite, that's an understandable reaction!

But swearing at a person (except in extreme mitigating circumstances), or thoughtlessly dropping in expletives every other sentence, are less justifiable, in my opinion.

Why?

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

Swearing at people is bad. It usually expresses rage and hatred. There might be extreme circumstances were expressing rage and hatred is justified, but I wouldn't want that to be an everyday occurrence.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
2. Why not?
Because it's not how humans can be expected to operate. "You've concentrated all day at work, why can't you concentrate on this now" wouldn't be a sensible concern. Likewise standards of behaviour change (deteriorate, if you like) when we relax. It is unrealistic to expect people to do x for another 4hrs after getting home on the basis that they have been able to do x for 8hrs during the day.

It depends on who is doing the expecting (and what the expectation is) and who determines what is realistic or not.

Expections, and understanding of what is realistic, vary IRL IME.

[ 04. October 2012, 14:59: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

1. I agree that people use swear words as punctuation but why?
Because that's how language works. Spoken more than written.

2. Have you ever tried asking them what the words mean and watching the embarassment??
What exactly do the words "have" and "the" mean in that sentence?

1. Language has no rules -- therefore it doesn't have to be punctuated by swearing.

2. "Have" = a request for information of direction. "The" = depends which one you're asking about. As a definite article it refers to the content of an individuals speech or the reaction to an honest question about that speech.

[ 04. October 2012, 15:07: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

And sometimes behaviour follows expectations, and sometimes it doesn't.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
[QUOTE]

1. As with many forms of communication, the actual meaning of words is irrelevant and changes with context.

2. Actually I wasn't just talking about swearing, but the kinds of language (including the sorts of words, the syntax and the jargon) changes on the context. Your point ignores the obvious fact that people usually change language with context.

3. Right. Well, I suspect your relationships are more strained than they might be, then.

1. The meaning of words is always relevant otherwise communication itself would be meaningless. I don't dispute that meaning changes but allow that meaning may vary between individuals as well as circumstances. A "pleb" is one thing to a cabinet minister but quite another to the person being referred to as such.

2. Usually? Sometimes but not always. Yes language and expression does change but that need not include the inclusion of words and ideas that some find acceptable and others don't (ie racism, swearing any -isms really: incidentally why is this language prohited and swering isn't -- the argument of meaning is nevetr permitted here).

Most words considered as swear words are rooted in descriptions of God and sex. They are also designed (originally) to shock - probably because they are commonplace they no longer do so. If I want to shock people there's a good few ways of doing it that don't involve swearing.

3. Good job I don't work on suss then. It's an accepting world provided you deliver.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

I have questions for parents: What are your thoughts about other adults who swear in the presence of your children? How far do you expect other adults to sanitize their speech?

I use a fair amount of foul language in my everyday speech, saying things such as "This is fucked up!" or "That was a shitty thing to do." When my closest friend adopted her daughter, I automatically cut such things out of my speech. When the girl was about 4 years old, I said something and her eyes got big: "You said a bad word!" The "bad" word turned out to be "butt." My friend said that she not only doesn't swear in front of her child, she doesn't use words like "crap" and "darn," and that in her family when she was growing up they didn't say "butt" and she intended to follow suit. She gave two reasons -- she thinks substitutions such as "darn" for "damn" undermine the principle of not swearing in front of children, and she figures they pick those things up soon enough anyway, and she didn't want to hasten the end of what she sees as a certain purity in children.

I didn't argue the point at the time, figuring that if I wanted to be in charge of raising children I should have had my own. As I'm an honorary auntie, practically family, I have supported my friend's choice by not using any words she considers objectionable in front of her child. But I do think it's overkill, and my patience with the self-censorship won't last forever. The girl is in the fourth grade, and I'm trying to hold out till she's in middle school, but honestly, I think the whole thing is bullshit.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I have questions for parents: What are your thoughts about other adults who swear in the presence of your children? How far do you expect other adults to sanitize their speech?

I think same rules as I have for myself. (i.e. my thoughts are not all that clear).

I would expect most adults to take an age-appropriate judgement. There will be room for disagreement in the grey-zone, but I wouldn't be pleased if you'd let out a string of expletives over your need for a beer after a hard day in the presence of a 5 yr-old.

On the other hand, although I might try and model what I view as the right way to moderate my language in front of my 11 yr-old, I wouldn't expect someone else to pick up on the exact line. And since 11 yr-olds hear a reasonable range of language, I wouldn't think it a big deal if you overstepped what I thought were the right boundaries.

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The girl is in the fourth grade, and I'm trying to hold out till she's in middle school, but honestly, I think the whole thing is bullshit.

Probably, but don't say so in front of the children.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I don't censor other adults. Mind you, I may later say to the kid, see, there's an example of how NOT to swear appropriately... and start criticizing content and technique.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

Lamb Chopped said (a while ago)

quote:
We make distinctions between vulgarity and blasphemy

and Exclamation Mark also said (slightly more recently)

quote:
Most words considered as swear words are rooted in descriptions of God and sex

This is perhaps a tangent, but I've noticed that the ranking of swear-words is different, between UK (and US?) cultures in general, compared to Holland and Scandinavia (my only points of first-hand reference - Ingo, where does Germany come in this?).

Hence former Danish postgraduate students swearing eanestly and fullsomely in a very quaint (to English ears) style, along the lines of 'may the Devil shit on your soul' etc. Hence a Finnish audience finding some rapper (can't remember who) utterly risible, with his sexually-derived swearing-rebellion act (I wish I could remember this well enough to find it on youtube. It was very funny indeed to watch him shrivel). And hence my very up-tight Dutch evangelical friends surprising me by saying "we would say fuck and shit without worrying, but we would never say (hushed tones) 'G_d damn you'".

So swearing is, of course, highly contextual. I gave up because of my kids (now 5 and 7), and the habit (or anti-habit) stuck so that I now exclaim 'oh Golly!" when something goes wrong...amongst my motorbike club friends. I'm the sad-ass bro...

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. Language has no rules -- therefore it doesn't have to be punctuated by swearing.

Of course language has rules. They change a lot; and they are determined by the whole coimmunity of speakers and not just teachers, pedants, and writers of dictionaries; and they probably aren't the ones you got taught at schoiol unless you were very lucky - but that doesn't matter because you probably knew most of the rules of your own language before you even went to school; but they surely exist.

quote:

2. "Have" = a request for information of direction. "The" = depends which one you're asking about. As a definite article it refers to the content of an individuals speech or the reaction to an honest question about that speech.

Well, no actually. Those words as you used them really have no meaning in isolation at all. And if you had left them out your sentence would havfe meant exactly the same as it did, and any English speaker would have understood it - but it would have been rather odd English, it would have bent or broken the rules of English. (the ones that don't exist)

Its the whole text or utterance that bears meaning, not individual words. Or not each and every individual word, anyway. Just exactly the same as with the swear words and obscenities "used as punctuation". They may have no separate meaning as individual words but taken in context they may change the meaning of the whole act of speech - if not the literal meaning of it, the social meanings surrounding it. Connotation as well as denotation.

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
.
Most words considered as swear words are rooted in descriptions of God and sex.

Its not just religion ansd sex. There are all sorts of other sources of these words - ethnicity, disability, animal names, body parts, excrement - different groups of people using them differently. It depends on language and culture.

In English - or in standard British English anyway - words about God have been entirely deprived of shock value in the last century or so. "Damn" lost all force many decades ago (I think it counted as more offensive in the USA than in Britain, but even there it seems to have become entirely acceptable recently) and "bloody" has in my lifetime, and "O My God" has been denatured in my daughter's lifetime.

Words about sex are varied in their impact, and there is no obvious logic to it. It just happens. "Cunt" is just about the least socially acceptable word you can say in England (which, things being as things are, means there are times and places where it becomes socially reinforcing to say it), yet "bugger", whose literal meanign would seem to be less acceptable, can be used by teachers in school in the hearing of the children.

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

Hence former Danish postgraduate students swearing eanestly and fullsomely in a very quaint (to English ears) style, along the lines of 'may the Devil shit on your soul' etc. Hence a Finnish audience finding some rapper (can't remember who) utterly risible, with his sexually-derived swearing-rebellion act [...l] And hence my very up-tight Dutch evangelical friends surprising me by saying "we would say fuck and shit without worrying, but we would never say (hushed tones) 'G_d damn you'".

Yes, exactly!

In British English, calling someone a Spaz or a Paki is more shocking to hearers than using words like "fuck". And words about God, as I said, lost all power to shock at all.

Posted by Pure Sunshine (# 11904) on :

mark_in_manchester wrote:

quote:
This is perhaps a tangent, but I've noticed that the ranking of swear-words is different, between UK (and US?) cultures in general, compared to Holland and Scandinavia (my only points of first-hand reference - Ingo, where does Germany come in this?).

Hence former Danish postgraduate students swearing eanestly and fullsomely in a very quaint (to English ears) style, along the lines of 'may the Devil shit on your soul' etc. Hence a Finnish audience finding some rapper (can't remember who) utterly risible, with his sexually-derived swearing-rebellion act (I wish I could remember this well enough to find it on youtube. It was very funny indeed to watch him shrivel). And hence my very up-tight Dutch evangelical friends surprising me by saying "we would say fuck and shit without worrying, but we would never say (hushed tones) 'G_d damn you'".

A while ago I read a genuinely fascinating book about this very subject, Your Mother's Tongue by Stephen Burgen - on comparative swearing in different European languages. He goes into quite a lot of detail about which kinds of swear words are used in which languages: Italian has a lot of variants on 'whore' and 'prick', Scandinavian swear words often relate to the devil, and Spain has a lot of inventive curses relating to the cross and the sacred host. Burgen interestingly explains this last one as a reaction against priests, rather than as one against God or religion per se.

[ 05. October 2012, 13:27: Message edited by: Pure Sunshine ]

Posted by Inger (# 15285) on :

To continue the tangent:

In Danish, no sexual terms are ever used as swear words. There are naturally words that correspond to 'fuck' and 'cunt', but they are very much taboo words, never used as terms of abuse, and never normally spoken out loud. I have to the best of my recollection only once heard the word meaning 'to fuck' spoken, though I have seen it in writing a few times. They may well be more used now than in my youth (I haven't lived in Denmark since I was 20). I was interested to hear 'fuck' (the English word) used as a swear word in The Killing in the Danish dialogue.

The words that are used are always either scatological (shit, arse, etc) or to do with Hell and damnation (Satan, damned, hell). One word that is considered particularly vulgar is 'sgu', a contraction of 'saa Gud' (by God). I remember using it as a child, and being told off very severely by my parents; not simply for swearing, but for swearing in a particularly vulgar manner.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

Is a certain amount of self-censorship hypocrisy, or is it contextual wisdom? (Bearing in mind, of course, the tendency to want to call one's own hypocrisy something else [Big Grin]

)

No one absolutely needs to swear. No one absolutely needs to have sex. You can live without either, really. But if you are going to have these in your life, you learn socially appropriate contexts and boundaries. Why is that problematic?

There are a lot of things I wouldn't do in public that I do in private. Does that make me a hypocrite? ISTM that understanding when a situation is "private" is analogous to understanding when a situation is "appropriate for swearing".

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Is a certain amount of self-censorship hypocrisy, or is it contextual wisdom?

That's a fantastic phrase. I'm going to use that next time I get accused of hypocrisy.

I think this thread has helped me clarify in my mind that it would be hypocrisy if I implied or claimed that I never used bad language when telling my children off for it. On the other hand if my response is geared to the situation and context, isn't moralistic about swearing and focuses on the outcomes they will experience as a result, then I think I can avoid the charge.

Unfortunately I'm reminded of someone else's rather better example in honest communication with children, but I think this isn't quite the same. And on the other hand I understand he was a dreadful father. But that's for another thread.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I have questions for parents: What are your thoughts about other adults who swear in the presence of your children? How far do you expect other adults to sanitize their speech?

<snip> I have supported my friend's choice by not using any words she considers objectionable in front of her child. But I do think it's overkill, and my patience with the self-censorship won't last forever. <snip>

Depends on your relationship with the child's mother, and how far apart you can be on this axis and still remain in relationship.

It occurred to me that this is an axis - the "prudishness-vulgarity" axis - rather like the "sloppiness-fussiness" axis in grammar or housekeeping. You land at a different place on the axis than your friend. Fine. How do you deal with that?

If your relationship is pretty flexible, you can withstand being far apart on this. She accepts your cussin'; you accept her preference for euphemism.

But ISTM there can be a dangerous sense of *superiority* at either end of the spectrum. I think that's the thing to look out for.

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

Lots of good thoughts here-- I guess I particularly agree with what Long Ranger and Ingo said.

The commandment about taking the Lord's name in vain is about perjury. To claim that it is about letting slip an occasional thoughtless vulgarity in the grip of emotion were to trivialize it out of recognition. It's too important to let that happen.

Cussing should be discouraged as bad manners and an offense against language as God's gift. It's usually so unoriginal. If you're going to cuss, at least try to be as creative as the proverbial sailor [Biased]

Sometimes children will "swear" in front of you quite deliberately to see what they can get away with. (Speaking as a former child who tried out a bit of vocabulary overheard in the playground around age 5 and was paddled almost before the word was out of my mouth.)

I was rather taken aback once when one of the sweetest ten-year-olds I'd ever known said "pissed-off" as casually as though it were standard English. Not quite (IMHO). I didn't think it was my place to comment, but someone with a bit of authority over him should explain gently that he doesn't do himself a favor using the phrase so unthinkingly.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
The commandment about taking the Lord's name in vain is about perjury.

No, the commandment about not bearing false witness is about perjury. The commandment about taking the Lord's name in vain is about piety. Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

I'd go with what the Jews think it is, since it was given to them. According to this we're both correct. "This includes prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of vows or promises, and speaking G-d's name or swearing unnecessarily."

But clearly, I can lie under oath without accusing anyone else of anything, and I can bear false witness against a neighbor just as harmfully with idle gossip as in court. An element of malice is in the essence of the latter. I see a clear distinction.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I'd go with what the Jews think it is, since it was given to them.

I wonder about extending that reasoning to our views of Jesus?

Posted by Moth (# 2589) on :

Last year we had the son of a German friend come to stay with us at the end of his year abroad at a Welsh university. He had picked up colloquial English from his fellow students, and this included quite a lot of swearing.

I do occasionally swear myself, but within the family swearing is relatively uncommon. Both my sons (now adult) probably swear like troopers when I'm not around, but modify their language for family use.

We got younger son to have a quiet word with the German lad about suitable vocabulary to use with friends of your parents rather than fellow students! It worked very well, and son claimed he had been ' all the subtle' in getting the message across without embarrassing our guest.

I think any young person is going to swear if that's what their friends do, but they can adopt different language codes for different situations easily enough. Mine will swear occasionally in front of me ( though not at me) but never in front of their grandparents.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0