Thread: Guarding against cynicism Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
How do we guard against cynicism?

Sometimes, it seems to me that cynicism is one of the biggest dangers the church faces today: from those outside, and within, but especially from its own leaders.

You often observe a culture of not seriously expecting anything to get better: church growth, returning visitors, successful initiatives, that sort of thing. On the one hand, I suppose it’s a defence mechanism: if we are constantly brightly optimistic, and if we happen to then be frequently disappointed, it will eventually wear us to despair.

But on the other, Jesus said he had come that we would have life, and have it in abundance. If we constantly lower our sights, are we second-guessing him?

It’s also very difficult to combat cynicism when you come up against it in other ministers/clerics. At best you can sound naive, and at worst hopelessly foolish. But when you have a whole meeting whose basic theme is ‘What’s the point?’ it doesn’t seem to be serving God’s purpose at all.

I find it’s even hard to defend against it in myself. When yet another publication comes from the diocese with a bouncy new slogan, it’s very hard not to think ‘Yeah, right’ and just shelve (if not bin) it. Is it them being unrealistic or is it me being cynical?
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
You ask this on the Ship. Home of some of the best (and funniest) Christian cynicism around.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
If you want to avoid cynicism, you've come to the wrong place ...



Enjoy the ride.

The serious answer is - I don't know. For those of us who've been around the block a few times this is a big issue.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Best antidote?

Enthusiasm.


 

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Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :
 
Rather than avoid cynicism it is beeter to practise it.


How else can one retain one's sanity in the face of the jargonese and business-speak which comes out with official Church policies?
 

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Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :
 
Rather than guard against cynicism practise it!

How else can one retain sanity in the face of the business-speak jargonese which fills official Church pronouncements?
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Best antidote?

Enthusiasm.

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quote:

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Anything but a remedy. Misplaced enthusiasm is the enemy of getting things done.

If you want to fan the flames of cynicism in others, be enthusiastic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Best antidote?

Enthusiasm.

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Anything but a remedy. Misplaced enthusiasm is the enemy of getting things done.

If you want to fan the flames of cynicism in others, be enthusiastic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by shamwari:
How else can one retain sanity in the face of the business-speak jargonese which fills official Church pronouncements?

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Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Panda:
I find it’s even hard to defend against it in myself. When yet another publication comes from the diocese with a bouncy new slogan, it’s very hard not to think ‘Yeah, right’ and just shelve (if not bin) it. Is it them being unrealistic or is it me being cynical?

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It may be both, but it might help to realize that the problem is not new: I'm sure it has been around for thousands of years, yet somehow we as a species have managed to make some sort of real progress. Maybe God knows what he's doing after all.

[ 04. October 2012, 22:02: Message edited by: W Hyatt ]
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Is there a distinction to be made between skepticism and cynicism? I find skepticism healthy, but cynicism destructive. And while I've seen both on the Ship, I've seen far more healthy skepticism.

I think humility and honesty might be the best safeguards against cynicism. There's something unspoken in the cynical attitude that always presumes oneself a little better than the people one's being cynical about.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
I have to agree with what has been said about enthusiasm. Most cynicism, IMNSHO, comes from frustrated enthusiasm. An example: a few people who aren't part of the leadership group have an idea, they run it past the leaders who then say "sure, get on with it", but as soon as this idea appears to be achieving anything the leadership start delaying and obstructing any progress, because this would mean handing over some of their precious bleedin' power to some they consider "outsiders!"

"That's the last time they have any bright ideas, now we can sit down again and run our nice comfy little church". say the leaders.

In short, cynicism is caused by a lack of empowerment, and I mean real empowerment, the kind that comes with resources like a budget.
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
Paul Vallely has an interesting column on Cynicism in this month's third way. For readers of old-media out there.

He uses the olympics as his way in. I felt the olympic lift, while it lasted, and enjoyed it. It perhaps helped that for much of the olympics I was in the Irish Republic, where ubiquitous social forces on one to be 'good company' appear to my English self to be so strong as to be a powerful corollary to cynicism, which, along with sarcasm (but not of course with wit) appear to me to play badly there. It has something in common with the powerful optimism worn with pride by many Americans which also seems to work against the C-word, but its focus seems to be more social and less requiring of an actual belief that something good might happen...
 

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Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :
 
Interesting Mark mentions the Olympics. A short period this summer when the national British cynicism was put on hold. I thought it was dreadful! Cynicism is our only defence against the politicians who would claim the achievements of the athletes and the organisers as their own. Against the managers who distance themselves from our failures and only embrace our successes. Against the preachers who play on our need for something great to happen to line their pockets or gratify their sexual urges.

Don't guard against cynicism; embrace it and guard against anything that threatens it.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Best antidote?

Enthusiasm.

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Anything but a remedy. Misplaced enthusiasm is the enemy of getting things done.

If you want to fan the flames of cynicism in others, be enthusiastic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Best antidote?

Enthusiasm.

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Anything but a remedy. Misplaced enthusiasm is the enemy of getting things done.

If you want to fan the flames of cynicism in others, be enthusiastic.

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Who said misplaced? I didn't.

There is nothing better than being enthusiastic about something and following it through, enthusiasm is contagious.

I am the most sceptical person I know when it comes to beliefs - but I can't function without enthusiasm. I honestly don't know how people get through the day without it.

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quote:

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Cynicism seems to be rooted in envy - you can't do it yourself so you sneer at others who do.

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quote:

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Meeting together with others who have the same enthusiasm is another joy. My latest is photography and the camera club is a grand place for geeky pleasure in the size of our lenses.

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quote:

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Ever tried sex without enthusiasm? - terrible!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Ever tried sex without enthusiasm? - terrible!

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Come on, marriage also has its good sides...
 

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Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :
 
Cheerful cynicism isn't necessarily a bad thing, as earlier contributors have pointed out. Hopeless cynicism is a bad thing IMO.
Best remedy for the cynicism of despair(in my experience)is activity. Do something, anything. Step out in faith.
It may go horribly wrong at first but you soon find yourself kicked onto a more useful route.

And sex without enthusiasm? A bit similar - minus the kicking of course. (Mind you I can't envisage any remedy at all for sex without enthusiasm on either side)
Is life a blind alley; or an open road? - Teilhard de Chardin
 

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Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 
My own growing pessimism about seeing good things happen in the UK church context comes from seeing vast numbers of new projects being hyped, going nowhere and QUIETLY BURIED. The issue is that there's no attempt to admit that they were wrong last time, with a view to learning how to do better this time round. Instead, perhaps to keep the money flowing in, perhaps out of a misplaced desire not to deflate the 'faith' of our 'weaker brethren', disasters are not discussed. As the Soviets discovered, eventually a permanent flow of good news will teach your populations total distrust. Yet our churches seem to run on that basis; as a matter of policy I pick up other dioceses' monthly magazines when I happen over them... there's always good news, until the money runs out and there's a panicky appeal for donations

An additional wound for me was one occasion when I foolishly trusted a charismatic website's 'testimony' and quoted it here. When I was challenged over it, I discovered that the pudding had been severely over egged. I was NOT IMPRESSED.

And yet, and yet. I've just finished a two year course with the New Wine Training Partnership that has grown from zero to now being the largest provider of theological education by extension in the UK in 3 years, offering courses accredited by a secular university. The teaching has been superb and the relationships excellent. The setup is as a result of vast amounts of effort and prayer, and is a reminder to me that sometimes the charismatics CAN get it right.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Sex without enthusiasm? Well, it has its good points, and surely it's better than enthusiasm without sex?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think the charismatics can certainly get things right, Ender's Shadow. It's the way they often go about it that can bring out the cynic in even the best of us.

I've quoted the Robert Knox thing about 'enthusiasm' on these boards before - 'enthusiasm' in the technically religious sense.

His whole book on the subject (a must-read if rather dated) suggests that whilst enthusiasm (in the 18th century meaning of the word) can be rather embarrassing, bonkers and daft - we still need it.

I don't know about you lot, but for all my rants and mistrust of matters charismatic and enthusiastic here on the Ship, I am secretly rather pleased that there are people around who do the charismatic stuff and so on.

Sure - it could all benefit from being toned down at times and the over-eggedness under-egging - but I s'pose it's easier to do that when there's some get-up-and-go in the first place.
 

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Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 
Careful, Gamaliel, we're agreeing FAR too much
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
His whole book on the subject (a must-read if rather dated) suggests that whilst enthusiasm (in the 18th century meaning of the word) can be rather embarrassing, bonkers and daft - we still need it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Late Paul:

So I'd say the best antidote to cynicism may well be genuine enthusiasm but forced enthusiasm is probably one of the prime causes of cynicism.

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Yes
 

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Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :
 
My previous post about cynicism being OK in the face of jargonese and business speak might well be misunderstood.

But it is hard to be merely sceptical when people who have never worked at the coal-face produce acres of newsprint in advocating "new" policies which are full of high-sounding phrases and cliches.

When you actually get round to sorting out what is meant you discover that its a rehash of what has been attempted all along.

Its not cliched pronouncements that we need. Its action on the ground and the practical 'resourcement' by those in high places to enable it. ( There's another cliche for you)

[ 05. October 2012, 16:50: Message edited by: shamwari ]
 

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Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :
 

quote:

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Best antidote?

Enthusiasm.

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For a moment with my deteriorating eye sight, I misread that as euthanasia ! I suppose that'd work as well !
 

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Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on :
 
One of my favourite hymns is 'Forth in Thy name, O Lord, I go', which includes the line: 'Preserve me from my calling's snare'. As a new teacher, cynicism is one of the snares I can see in my future, if some of my colleagues are a guide.

To me, cynicism is the opposite of hope. It can be a sin of fear, as noted above (I find that really interesting). IMO it can more dangerously be a sin of pride, with the cynic believing they've seen it all before.

It's telling that most of the cynicism I see in school is cured by the kids. The really scary cynics (and I met one on my very first school placement) have become cynical about the kids too.
 

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Posted by Makepiece (# 10454) on :
 
One interesting and stimulating field of psychological research focusses on the concept of 'self fulfilling prophesies'. The theory is that beliefs about how certain people will behave causes behaviour which elicits the expected reactions!

See this research for example:

http://www.psychology.sunysb.edu/afreitas-/publications/downey_freitas_michaelis_khouri1998.pdf

By way of example if a new government comes into power the senior civil service may be expecting the new ministers to lack respect for their expertise. As a result the civil service may become protective over their resources and closed off. Meanwhile the new ministers may be expecting the Civil Service to be closed off and protective over their resources and may try to impose on them thus confirming the original expectations of the civil service. The Civil Service react by becoming closed off and protective thus confirming the minister's expectations. Who caused the friction? Causation in the example is circular but it can be broken if one party changes their expectations.

I believe that Jesus taught us to not judge and to see the best in others. Does this involve changing our expectations of others? 'Once you have taken the log out of your own eye-then you can see clearly'.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well yes, on the surface, IngoB, but you read the closing lines of the last chapter ...

I could quote it if you like. He sees that for all the daftness and the numptiness, we still need enthusiasm.

Go and read it.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Best antidote is good old fashioned humility. At the bottom of cyncism is the old fashioned satisfaction of feeling that you know better than anyone else and that therefore their good ideas won't work. If you are able to take yourself less seriously and acknowledge that you might not be right.

The best way to learn this is to note the times your cynicism is wrong. I can remember when I was at university, in the final year a group I was in repeated something that had been a failure in my first year. I was cynical expecting it to lead to the demise of the group but I had enough sense to keep my trap shut, as I was a had been, others had to make their own mistakes. It was a success, did not bankrupt the group and the group is still going almost thirty years later!

Jengie
 

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Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :
 
Being both a cynic and an enthusiast, I feel completely traduced by this thread. Neither is the toxic psychological effluent it is being painted as. Both are essential: without cynicism, bubbles would only ever inflate, and stupid, brainless, hurtful ideas would just go on gathering speed because some unreflecting bouncy type was constantly and successfully shaming people into supporting their ridiculous ideas.

On the other hand, without enthusiasts, life would feel like the world convention of Eeyores, held on a wet Tuesday afternoon in mid-February. Nothing would ever happen, no experiment would ever be attempted, because everything has been done before and nothing ever works.

So I give my qualified 'yay' for both - providing they don't stop talking to each other, because neither is particularly productive on their own.
 

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Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :
 
'Being both a cynic and an enthusiast ...... I give my qualified 'yay' for both - providing they don't stop talking to each other, because neither is particularly productive on their own.'
- FooloftheShip.

Seconded.
 

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Posted by LucyP (# 10476) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
So I give my qualified 'yay' for both - providing they don't stop talking to each other, because neither is particularly productive on their own.

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I think the group Casting Crowns described the situation well in their recent song City on a Hill.

Lyrics here.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, I'm going to be cynical and declare that song to be crap.



No wonder I'm cynical about the Christian music scene if this is the best it can come up with ...

Meanwhile - this thread's taught me something. I can be a cynical enthusiast!

Let's hear it for the enthusiastic cynics!

My old English teacher used to say that 'one man's cynic is another man's realist.' Even I don't go that far though ...

We need the enthusiasts and the eeyores. Let's hear it for both.
 

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Posted by moron (# 206) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't know about you lot, but for all my rants and mistrust of matters charismatic and enthusiastic here on the Ship, I am secretly rather pleased that there are people around who do the charismatic stuff and so on.

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Who are you and what have you done with Gamaliel?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 


Gamaliel's trying to be nice and to see both sides.

He does that from time to time.

'I am large, I contain multitudes ...'
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Actually, Moron, I think my raining on Lucy's Contemporary Christian Music parade was very much in character.

Perhaps you'd posted before you'd seen that.

Gamaliel is cynic. Gamaliel is enthusiast. He is all these things ... and hopefully a lot more besides, as most people are.
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, I'm going to be cynical and declare that song to be crap.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Is there a distinction to be made between skepticism and cynicism? I find skepticism healthy, but cynicism destructive. And while I've seen both on the Ship, I've seen far more healthy skepticism.

I think humility and honesty might be the best safeguards against cynicism. There's something unspoken in the cynical attitude that always presumes oneself a little better than the people one's being cynical about.

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That would be my take. I find when I'm being skeptical about a difficult task, I can still try to solve problems and not mind the situation or the people too much. When I'm being cynical, I become resentful and begrudging.

I find that the apathy of others is the biggest thing in making me cynical. Followed closely by the 'we-meaning-you-or-someone-else' brigade.

A note on terminology, however, there is a less-serious, even more humourous application of cynicism. A little like salt, when applied in small doses can add a bit of realistic palatability and flavour - and help one from throwing up over the blandness of the 'diet' one is consuming.
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Cynicism can also be healthy . I sometimes wrap myself in it when my faith is nowhere to be seen .
I've done that today with the true and shocking nature of the Savile scandal coming out.

It was said that Britain's former vital optimism perished during the battle of the Somme . Soldiers came home with a new brand of cynicism , and I believe it was such hard-bitten cynicism that saw us through the Blitz .

Cynicism may not sit comfortably next to faith but it does, nevertheless, have it's uses.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Why did I write it off, Midijon?

For a laugh?

To sound cynical?

Because it adopts a faux-folk style?

Because it really doesn't have a great deal to say?

It might be fairly well produced, I'm not sure it is reasonably well written but hey ... and it's that kind of anodyne soft rock style that is pretty much ubiquitous, as you say.

So what has it got in its favour? That it sounds that anything else out there?

Well, that just shows how crap the 'anything else' is as well.

Is that cynical enough for everyone?


 

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Posted by LucyP (# 10476) on :
 
If you don't like the style of music, that's fine. Taste in music is very much an individual matter (I'm sure there's been a thread on that before). I'm not sure why you call it faux-folk, (rather than contemporary folk-rock) but I'm neither a music expert, nor Welsh.

For those who do like the style, the song was relevant to the topic of this thread, since it says metaphorically/allegorically what people are saying in the discussion. (And as it happens it was a Ship of Fools Heaven thread that first introduced me to the music of Casting Crowns!) I like a bit of non-literal communication from time to time (within limits).

One person's helpful (if fairly obvious) allegory is another person's cliché. So it goes. Let the discussion progress!

[Edited to change name of music style]

[ 06. October 2012, 22:58: Message edited by: LucyP ]
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Why did I write it off, Midijon?

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quote:

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Originally posted by LucyP:
why you call it faux-folk, (rather than contemporary folk-rock)

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quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
Cynicism can also be healthy . I sometimes wrap myself in it when my faith is nowhere to be seen .
I've done that today with the true and shocking nature of the Savile scandal coming out.

It was said that Britain's former vital optimism perished during the battle of the Somme . Soldiers came home with a new brand of cynicism , and I believe it was such hard-bitten cynicism that saw us through the Blitz .

Cynicism may not sit comfortably next to faith but it does, nevertheless, have it's uses.

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I think you make a good point there. But maybe mixed in with the cynicism was just simple realism and pragmatism, too.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I don't have a problem with folk-rock at all. I have some Sandy Denny, Fairport Convention and Richard and Linda Thompson albums.

I just tend to think that most CCM is a poor shadow of the contemporary (or not so contemporary) styles it emulates.

Also, seeing as this thread is about cynicism Lucy's post simply gave me a hook to hang a few cynical remarks on to prove - if any proof were needed - that cynicism is alive and well in these parts and long may it continue to thrive ...



Seriously, I'm with Jengie Jon and others. Cynicism in its raw form is very destructive. It's a pill that needs sugaring.

I'm not really cynical, honest. But I like to wind people up and it's easily done at times. But as you were, let the discussion continue. I'm not going to fall out with anyone over Casting Crowns or any other ephemeral Christian soft-rock band.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
If anything got London, Coventry and other British cities through the Blitz it was normal human bloody-mindedness and the desire (this is just my opinion) of women to keep families functioning in some way. It was far from unique to Britain and was seen in Germany and Japan too.

The trench warfare of the First World War, especially the third battle of Ypres (or Passchendaele) did change society, but principally in destroying deference and any trust the working class ever had for 'their betters'. I suppose you could regard that outcome as cynicism, but cynicism is found in all parts of society.
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not really cynical, honest. But I like to wind people up and it's easily done at times.

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Now I've no idea which bits you seriously mean and which are intended to wind someone up. Which personally speaking isn't helping me to guard against cynicism.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Who said I was trying to help you guard against cynicism Mdijon?



I think you took an off-the-cuff comment I made rather too seriously, but I can understand why. I was just messing about in what has been an otherwise serious conversation.

I wouldn't worry about it. Read the other remarks I made and ignore the comments about Casting Crowns or Crowing Casts or whatever-their-name is ...


 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Actually, that should be Crowning Casts.

Or Cowrning Scats.

Or Scrowning Cats.

Or Crawning Scots ...

Scrowning Stac
 

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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
So anyway...
A number of folks have suggested that a difference between cynicism and realism seems to be the main thing. When Jesus said he was sending us out as sheep among the wolves, he obviously didn't mean us to be gobbled up straightaway, hence the cunning/wise/shrewd as snakes bit.

Is it just a question of being ready for the worst, but hoping for the best anyway?
 

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Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 
Rightly or wrongly, I'm always cynical when I read news of "Back to Church Sunday." I just don't believe people can be shepherded back into the fold with corny clichés like that.

That's not to say that it cannot be done - but there has to be better ways!
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The problem with Back to Church Sunday is that it is based on a flawed premise: that there are numbers of people who once attended church who if only invited would return.

There are some people who once attended but drifted away, the vast majority of those they hope to reach have never been part of a church. They may have attended the odd special service - baptism, wedding, funeral - but haven't got near regular attendance. Mission Shaped Children starts by discussing the ethos in the 70s where schools, Scouting and Girl Guiding groups were positively discouraged from building church links, so a generation of children who in previous times would have had some church attendance through those organisations, didn't. And it's their children we're now working with, in families where there is no history of church going, no-one has been baptised ...
 

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