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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Being an 'Anglican' in Sydney
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I realise that there are shipmates who are Australians, some Sydney Australians, and are therefore more qualified than most to give an opinion.
I was recently visited by an old school friend who now lives in Sydney. He has invited me for an extended visit - which is sensible given that it is Australia. He is not a church person, although his parents are middle to high Anglicans and live in the UK.
If I want to go to church whilst I am staying with him - or even interest my friend once again, where could I go? I couldn't stomach what I read on here of the nepotistic Jensen tendency, and my pal is an intelligent computer scientist who happens to be gay, and who would be very underwhelmed by what one now hears is on offer in the cathedral. Were he to hear a Jensen-esque speech, it would confirm his worst suspicions.
Do we just go Roman Catholic for a while? Or Lutheran? Or just not bother to go anywhere?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
One of my friends attends St James King Street in Sydney. It's a liberal-moderate parish in Downtown Sydney with a somewhat-high church liturgical style.
http://www.sjks.org.au/
The self-identified Anglo-catholic parish in Sydney is Christ Church St Lawrence:
http://www.ccsl.org.au/
Two parishes in Sydney that are not "Sydney Anglican".
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Where will you be staying? Sydney is spread over a very wide area and public transport is far from the standard of European cities. In the CBD, there are both St James and CCSL, linked above, and in the Inner West suburbs there is quite a wide choice. More in the northern suburbs but fewer in the south and west. There are some MW reports of both St James and CCSL. If you want, there are a lot of what I cll old-fashioned low church - definitely at the Protestant end of the Anglican spectrum, but using either the 1662 BCP or the 1975 modern translation, and not Moore College in theology.
High and AC churches in Sydney are generally very inclusive, All but 1 or 2 support OoW.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
Sebby: St James, King Street, is a handsome example of colonial Georgian architecture: Christ Church St Laurence is splendidly gothick.
Both of these churches are partners in Changing Attitude Australia, on whose website you and your friend will find other welcoming churches that you might consider visiting.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
A couple of shippies attend St Luke's Enmore, (inner west of Sydney) link to website here it is Anglo-Catholic in style and its stated goal is to share God's love with everyone regardless of gender, age, race, marital or family status, sexual orientation, wealth or disability.
As GeeD said though, Sydney is a big place and public transport is not great, so best to find somwhere closeish to home. Failing that. St James King St is in the city and reasonably easy to get to by public transport from most places.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
Yep, don't give up on Anglicans in Sydney. If you can give a suburb the shippies on here will be able to point you to something near.
If there is no 'suitable' nearby Anglican church, then Uniting may be a possibility.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
If you find yourself staying out of the inner city, there are a number of Anglican parishes which have fine choral traditions, sensible preaching, and which uphold the traditional ethos of Anglican liturgical formularies. Mention has already been made of Christ Church St Laurence, St James' King Street and St Luke's Enmore: all three have very fine services, with intelligent preaching, and an on going, living tradition.
Apart from our own Anglican Communities of Our Lady service in Granville, I would unhesitantly recommend St Alban's, Epping; St Paul's, Burwood; and All Saints, Hunters Hill as places where the worship and preaching would be of the highest standards, and where both your friend and yourself would be made to feel welcome while not assailed by what passes for both preaching and liturgy in most Sydney Anglican churches nowadays.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
You could also explore the website of Anglicans Together. Links to quite a few churches, some already mentioned. Some interesting papers to read as well. But it would be good if you could find out where you may be staying so we could suggest somewher perhaps local. St James King Street and Christ Church St Laurence are in the city, Enmore is fairly close by, and most of the others are out of the city itself .
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
I am not an Anglican but visit Sydney regularly and I go to the Uniting Church on Pitt Street, a progressive, welcoming and inclusive church very centrally located.
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Pell and Jensen missed their real vocation, they should really be a double act in the reverse image of Penn and Teller..
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Pell and Jensen missed their real vocation, they should really be a double act in the reverse image of Penn and Teller..
Just how old are the Jensens? They remind me of a few other leaders the world is just "waiting out."
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Just how old are the Jensens? They remind me of a few other leaders the world is just "waiting out."
Arhbishop Peter Jensen is due to retire this year, after have his tenure extended once (and then, if I remember correctly, a second request for extension was 'declined').
His brother, Phillip the Dean, was due to have retired as well this year but he managed to get an extension so that he can have a role in the election synod. which could be a double-edged sword for whoever gets the nod from the Anglican Church League.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
++ Peter was born on 11 July 1943; Dean Phillip is a couple of years younger.
Apart from the churches already mentioned, St John's Balmain is a very attractive older church within the catholic tradition. So is St Peter's Cremorne, but parking there can be a bit difficult. Public transport is good, though. The rector of St John the Evangelist at Dee Why is Fr Steven Salmon SSC (who wears a biretta) and his wife Sandra is his deacon. Quite close to Dee Why beach, but public transport on Sunday morning is probably none too good. St Luke's Mosman is an attractive church, but don't confuse it with St Clements Mosman, which is in the old-fashioned low church tradition I referred to. All of these will be very welcoming and inclusive.
As I said before, a lot depends on where you're staying, and to some extent what you'll be doing for the rest of the day. If you're happy to be coffee shopping, it's hard to go past Balmain or Enmore. If you're in a car and want to drive along the northern beaches, Dee why is your best bet. Each of the others has its own suitability.
Two things to remember. The suburban churches are both local parish churches and to some extent a gathered church for others living not too far away but unhappy in their own local parish. The churchmanship amongst the congregation will vary. The other is that anglican catholicism in Sydney is generally liberal and inclusive, and FinF is all but unknown.
[ 08. October 2012, 05:47: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Tell me, Emli, as I am intrigued, are the Anglican Communities of Our Lady actually within the Anglican Archdiocese of Sydney and the clerics duly licensed by it?
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
I emailed the Archbishop of Sydney today after hearing him on AM this morning, and received a reply on his behalf. Essentially, I applauded his decrying individualism, his cautious approach on discussing asylum seekers, and his positive gospel message when asked what would be sung at his funeral.
I said that we would disagree on particular issues and that he was regularly in my prayers.
I was surprised at my reaction and urge to write, especially considering his overall position as the Archbogey to liberals, catholics and liberal catholics everywhere. But I found myself in agreement with the part of his address to Synod that had been picked up by the media, his genuineness in talking of the love of Jesus and his ducking when rotting horseflesh came flying by.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
The Abp is a good communicator and is very personable.
This opinion piece sums up some of the issue I have with his approach to debate though.
quote:
There are a number of reasons Jensen prefers to focus on whether people are playing nicely with each other in the sandpit of public discourse, rather than the substance of what those who disagree with him have to say.
By focusing on speaking calmly, re-iterating that he wants to “look at the facts” (despite failing to refer to any empirical evidence at all), he casts himself as a reasonable, vulnerable elder statesman. For those who disagree with him, sometimes angrily and emotionally, he reacts with feigned disbelief to invoke sympathy for his bigotry.
This article is about homosexuality, it's the same with the role of women, he and his followers keep repeating, it's in the bible, this is not my view it's the plain reading of the bible. When you point out other plain readings of the bible and inconsistencies in their approach, they completely fail to engage with that and keep repeating that you can't pick and choose which bits of the bible you stick to and you have to take the whole bible seriously. When women get upset and frustrated with this, they come across as looking shrill and unreasonable.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
On the subject of the Anglican Communities of Our Lady, having read their newsheet, The Clarion and having checked Anglican churches in Granville, NSW, and seeing they appear unconnected with the local parish, I am wondering whether they are actually affiliated with the Anglican Archdiocese of Sydney.
The matter intrigued me and I have PM'd Emli on it. Hopefully he will respond on this thread.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
This article is about homosexuality, it's the same with the role of women, he and his followers keep repeating, it's in the bible, this is not my view it's the plain reading of the bible. When you point out other plain readings of the bible and inconsistencies in their approach, they completely fail to engage with that and keep repeating that you can't pick and choose which bits of the bible you stick to and you have to take the whole bible seriously. When women get upset and frustrated with this, they come across as looking shrill and unreasonable.
I'm sure there are people who would argue the historic position on gender and ministry in that inadequate way, just as there are manifestly inadequate arguments put forward on the other side of that debate. But that bears no resemblance to the way Peter Jensen would argue his case in any forum where argument actually mattered.
Posts: 665 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CJS:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
This article is about homosexuality, it's the same with the role of women, he and his followers keep repeating, it's in the bible, this is not my view it's the plain reading of the bible. When you point out other plain readings of the bible and inconsistencies in their approach, they completely fail to engage with that and keep repeating that you can't pick and choose which bits of the bible you stick to and you have to take the whole bible seriously. When women get upset and frustrated with this, they come across as looking shrill and unreasonable.
I'm sure there are people who would argue the historic position on gender and ministry in that inadequate way, just as there are manifestly inadequate arguments put forward on the other side of that debate. But that bears no resemblance to the way Peter Jensen would argue his case in any forum where argument actually mattered.
I'll take your word for it on how the Abp would argue CJS as I haven't personally had the debate with him have you?
I have discussed the issue with a number of people who graduated from Moore College during Mr Jensen's tenure and that is exactly how they either argued or presented their position during talks. I did see the Abp interviewed in tv long ago about this issue and he did indeed say "this isn't what I think it's what the bible says" perhaps the rest of his arguments were edited out.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Oh and I found the transcript of an interview with the Abp, I don't think my paraphrase of the Abp's approach is too far off
quote:
On the issue of women, what for instance, (let's leave this issue of the priest alone, the issue of the woman as priest) what about the role of women in a congregation. For instance, is it appropriate for a woman to teach men in a congregation?
PETER JENSEN: Well when I'm asked that question, John, I take us back to the Bible, and I say, Well what does the Bible say? See for us, this whole question is fundamentally not even the question of the ordering of a relationship between men and women, it's a question of the authority of the Bible. And as I said earlier in this program, the question of the authority of the Bible lies behind many of the disputes in Christendom.
JOHN CLEARY: So what do you believe the Bible says?
PETER JENSEN: Well the Bible says a woman shall not teach or have authority over men, and if listeners would like to read that, it's in the First Letter of Paul to Timothy, Chapter II.
ABC Sunday Night transcript
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
On the subject of the Anglican Communities of Our Lady, having read their newsheet, The Clarion and having checked Anglican churches in Granville, NSW, and seeing they appear unconnected with the local parish, I am wondering whether they are actually affiliated with the Anglican Archdiocese of Sydney.
The matter intrigued me and I have PM'd Emli on it. Hopefully he will respond on this thread.
The Anglican Communities of Our Lady are a growing number of communities (three have been established in 18 months, with one more to hopefully join by the end of the year) are communities of worship which uses the style of Anglo-Catholic liturgy and largely hold to a borad/modern Catholic theology which could best be described as fitting with Affirming Catholicism and The Society of Catholic Priests.
At this stage we are not yet recognised as an extra-parochial, extra-diocesan organisation within the Anglican Church.
Clergy are all canonically ordained Anglicans, and either hold or are in the process of applying for a license, often in more than one diocese.
Since the start of last year, following the direction of the Primate (which is not to infer in any way his direct approval or authorisation of the venture), we have been negotiating to come under the authority of a diocesan bishop – that would make us a formal part of the Anglican Church of Australia.
In due Anglican principles, following communications with both the Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Anglican Communion Office, we have also written directly to Archbishop Jensen, whome we pray for each week, seeking formal acceptance and authorisation.
[ 10. October 2012, 03:39: Message edited by: Emendator Liturgia ]
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Thanks for the clarification EL. Is it not somewhat misleading to call your organisation "Anglican Communities of OUr Lady" when for the foreseeable future you are not part of the Anglican church?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Thanks for the clarification EL. Is it not somewhat misleading to call your organisation "Anglican Communities of OUr Lady" when for the foreseeable future you are not part of the Anglican church?
I can undertstand your concern, Evangeline, which we both considered and prayed about long and hard. We consulted with others so as to ensure that we were in both the moral and legal right, rather than the legal and moral wrong. Apart from the persons mentioned in my previous posting, a prominent lawyer (who specialises in Anglican canon law and practice) who has worked estensively with the Church, and bishops with whom we consulted, the term 'Anglican' is proper as:
a) all clergy are canonically ordained in the Anglican Church,
b) all clergy are or are in the process of applying to be duly licensed;
c) all worship is in the main from authorised Anglican formularies and none deviates from accepted Anglican theology.
I am reminded of the establishement of independent orders within both the Catholic and Anglican churches, both here in Australia and overseas, which came to have the official imprimatur of the Church in time but who often started out as 'extra ordinary'.
Gamaliel: 'If this thing is from God, it will survive"!
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matariki:
I am not an Anglican but visit Sydney regularly and I go to the Uniting Church on Pitt Street, a progressive, welcoming and inclusive church very centrally located.
I'll echo that. I enjoyed it when I lived in Sydney.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by CJS:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
This article is about homosexuality, it's the same with the role of women, he and his followers keep repeating, it's in the bible, this is not my view it's the plain reading of the bible. When you point out other plain readings of the bible and inconsistencies in their approach, they completely fail to engage with that and keep repeating that you can't pick and choose which bits of the bible you stick to and you have to take the whole bible seriously. When women get upset and frustrated with this, they come across as looking shrill and unreasonable.
I'm sure there are people who would argue the historic position on gender and ministry in that inadequate way, just as there are manifestly inadequate arguments put forward on the other side of that debate. But that bears no resemblance to the way Peter Jensen would argue his case in any forum where argument actually mattered.
I'll take your word for it on how the Abp would argue CJS as I haven't personally had the debate with him have you?
It hasn't been necessary for me to debate this matter with him, but I've heard him preach and lecture, read many of his academic works, other articles and contributions to the doctrine commission over the years. In these contexts (where arguments actually matter) I've heard and read him engage with those who represent other perspectives and it is on the basis of this experience that I suggest your characterisation is an unhelpful caricature.
quote:
I have discussed the issue with a number of people who graduated from Moore College during Mr Jensen's tenure and that is exactly how they either argued or presented their position during talks.
Recognising this is purgatory rather than hell, I'll just say that my faith in your capacity for charitable reading (or hearing) of those with whom you disagree has been significantly eroded over the years. And yet I too know guys who graduated from MTC with me who sometimes use less than compelling arguments, just as I know guys who graduated in economics with me from UNSW who sometimes use less than compelling arguments.[/qb][/quote]
quote:
I did see the Abp interviewed in tv long ago about this issue and he did indeed say "this isn't what I think it's what the bible says" perhaps the rest of his arguments were edited out.
I think you your making a false assumption at this point, in assuming that 'a media interview' is one of those context where argument actually matters. This is not a mistake that our archbishop makes.
[ 11. October 2012, 02:41: Message edited by: CJS ]
Posts: 665 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CJS:
quote:
I did see the Abp interviewed in tv long ago about this issue and he did indeed say "this isn't what I think it's what the bible says" perhaps the rest of his arguments were edited out.
I think you your making a false assumption at this point, in assuming that 'a media interview' is one of those context where argument actually matters. This is not a mistake that our archbishop makes. [/QB]
Well as the conversation was about the Abp's comments on the media (see Vulpior's comments at 7:16 on 9 October), your contributions would appear to be irrelevant.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by CJS:
quote:
I did see the Abp interviewed in tv long ago about this issue and he did indeed say "this isn't what I think it's what the bible says" perhaps the rest of his arguments were edited out.
I think you your making a false assumption at this point, in assuming that 'a media interview' is one of those context where argument actually matters. This is not a mistake that our archbishop makes.
Well as the conversation was about the Abp's comments on the media (see Vulpior's comments at 7:16 on 9 October), your contributions would appear to be irrelevant. [/QB]
Huh?
Posts: 665 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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