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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'Non-church' congregations V the Committed church goer
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I had a slightly strange conversation a couple of weeks ago with a CofE vicar who expressed the view that he much preferred the occasional offices (funerals/marriages/Christenings) to his regular services.
He was quite open in saying that he preferred the congregations at the occasional offices as they were usually very appreciative, even though they hadn't got a clue, and he always attended the receptions afterwards out of pleasure rather than duty. He included the Christmas congregations - especially at Midnight Mass - amongst his favourites.
This was contrasted with the regular cast who attend almost weekly, who can be difficult and 'viewy', and want meetings and fuss over the flower rotas He clearly has to go along with it because they gift aid and so on.
Laughing, he wondered if it might be possible to shuffle off the regulars and just stick with the casuals. This was meant purely in jest, and of course he understood the absurdity, but there was a certain sentiment underneath.
Do any clergy of any denomination on here have similar experiences?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I'm not a member of the clergy, but as a church steward I noticed similar attitudes.
Occasional church goers are more likely to be on their best behaviour when they go to church, because it's not such familiar territory for them. And because churchgoing hasn't become a routine, they're probably more profusely grateful when they do go.
I sense that the clergy want to feel needed and respected beyond the confines of a rather demanding, opinionated group of church regulars. And they enjoy interacting with 'normal' people, for a change! Perhaps many of their congregation are elderly women, etc. so they appreciate being able to interact with people from a different demographic.
This is understandable, although unless it's phrased carefully it can sound as if the minister is taking the regular congregation for granted, and would rather enjoy the company of other people!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Someone who shows up just for a wedding or funeral or Christmas is there entirely by choice (well, maybe compulsion from family, but there is no sense of the *church* compelling them).
They have minimal expectations. And they are entirely outside all the politics inherent in any organization.
They are treated like a guest -- no one is flagging them down to try to get them to be on this committee or donate to that off-budget need or show up for all church work day to clean the basement.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Ive met lots of church congregations, and lots of non-church people. I know whom I would generally rather spend my time with.
I have heard some terrible tales of non-church people, who fail to understand what is acceptable and reasonable behaviour, and so can be a pain. For example, at a funeral where they complained that their special song had not been played - it had, but all of the mourners were outside smoking at the time.
I know many clergy like The first Communion of Christmas (Midnight Mass), because it can be a brilliant service, with lots of non-regulars. Regulars can a PITA.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
In my experience, if there's a problem of non-church people vs. committed churchgoers it's trying to convince the latter that it is a real and important part of my job to spend time with the former. Even if they're not paying my stipend, or funding church maintenance or on the select vestry.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Isn't it nice to know how much your vicar appreciates your loyalty and your generosity?
How would his flock feel if they heard about this?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Mark Betts, I don't (as usual) know exactly what it is you're getting at. Or what it is you imagine you're reading here.
My own select vestry communicate very clearly with me on precisely these issues eg, whether non-church contributors should pay a fee for church services, whether non-church-goers should even be permitted to have the church for their services; whether or not they're happy with my sponsoring - as a clergyperson - poorer non-churchgoers for grants. And I make it very clear what I understand to be the responsibilities of an Anglican priest to his/her parish. There's nothing expressed here by me, that would in the least comes as 'news' to any of my vestry members and most of my congregation members. (At least the ones who stay awake long enough to attend meetings and listen to sermons!)
Don't your church council meetings have open and frank exchanges of views between the opinions and requests of church-members and the clergy they finance?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
IME it is not the regulars who show up drunk at Christmas Eve services and talk loudly.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Yes, I've come across clergy with that attitude as well - I think they like non-churchgoers so much because they might become churchgoers in time. Meanwhile, the regulars are expected to give most of the money and do most of the work.
I wonder how many non-churchgoers will actually become faithful regulars, even if all the church's time and money are spent on them?
It seems to me important to get the right balance - if the regulars don't feel cared for as well, they are not likely to want to support the work of the church with time and money; you are likely to get regulars drifting away and still not get the newcomers to stick around.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Mark Betts, I don't (as usual) know exactly what it is you're getting at. Or what it is you imagine you're reading here.
Sorry - my comment was never intended to be aimed at you - it was about the OP.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Nice OP. I have experienced the same thing, but never thought of it that way.
I just think that it is nice to meet new people, however much we may love the regulars.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
...
Don't your church council meetings have open and frank exchanges of views between the opinions and requests of church-members and the clergy they finance?
The mutual relationship you and your parish council have is commendable, Anselmina. It should be the norm. Sadly, there are places it isn't.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I know my pastor enjoys doing funerals for the un- and underchurched; for him it's a real ministry to hurting and confused people. Baptisms -- sometimes gratifying, sometimes an exercise in wishful thinking that the individuals/families involved will truly become an active part of our church family in the long term. Marriages of non-church people -- usually sheer hell.
I'm guessing this sounds familiar to others.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
The mutual relationship you and your parish council have is commendable, Anselmina. It should be the norm. Sadly, there are places it isn't.
It's usually when controversial stuff comes up. I make an appeal that we talk about the hard stuff now in the meeting and not down the pub afterwards, or at the door when the meeting's finished (that'll happen anyway ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ). TBH, it's the aspect of being an incumbent I feel most inadaquate over. I disappoint good-hearted faithful people at such times, and I don't have what it takes to share a vision that helps them to see further or gain a more optimistic hope for their future.
I do understand what others are saying here about church-members feeling neglected and having to pay to provide a free service for the one-off 'consumers'.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
It is a hard balance for parish clergy, after all you are the PARISH priest and not soley the chaplain of your congregation.
It is sometimes an impossible task to keep everybody happy. One vicar of my acquaintance when his congregation moaned that he never visited them, sat down with his PCC and listed his work and asked them to prioritise as he couldn't do it all. They looked at what he did and said that visiting the existing congregation was not a priority.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
... I disappoint good-hearted faithful people at such times, and I don't have what it takes to share a vision that helps them to see further or gain a more optimistic hope for their future.
I do understand what others are saying here about church-members feeling neglected and having to pay to provide a free service for the one-off 'consumers'.
Perhaps you and they, together, are the continuing vision of where things are going? Quite frankly, it sounds like a good "moving dialogue", which is probably better than someone spending three hours in their study writing up a "mission statement" which sounds good but goes nowhere. I think you are a bit harsh on yourself here.
As a former long term contributing (in more ways than money) parishioner I never had the attitude "we pay your wages" to the priest. I think he could have done more - he was inherently lazy - but that was him. I'm sure he is atypical. Clergy should be trusted to both outreach and cater to the regulars.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
One vicar of my acquaintance when his congregation moaned that he never visited them, sat down with his PCC and listed his work and asked them to prioritise as he couldn't do it all. They looked at what he did and said that visiting the existing congregation was not a priority.
I like that idea. It would help to know what the parish priest does in order to respect the use of time. (In a general sense, for reasons of confidentiality, of course.)
I am aware of several individuals who have left the Anglican church and gone to their local catholic church because they perceived that the care to individual church members is greater there, particularly now that many Anglican churches are being grouped together.
[ 13. October 2012, 22:01: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
]I am aware of several individuals who have left the Anglican church and gone to their local catholic church because they perceived that the care to individual church members is greater there, particularly now that many Anglican churches are being grouped together.
If my part of Ireland is anything to go by, they would rarely if ever be asked their opinion on anything.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
]I am aware of several individuals who have left the Anglican church and gone to their local catholic church because they perceived that the care to individual church members is greater there, particularly now that many Anglican churches are being grouped together.
If my part of Ireland is anything to go by, they would rarely if ever be asked their opinion on anything.
Bear in mind that Catholic parishes Tend to be far bigger than anglican ones, so the numbers of congrgants to a priest may be significantly higher. I also know several catholic parishes that are 'lumped together' and looked after by one priest.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Are we mission-shaped or status quo shaped?
Many of us are tending toward pear-shaped.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Yes, I've come across clergy with that attitude as well - I think they like non-churchgoers so much because they might become churchgoers in time. Meanwhile, the regulars are expected to give most of the money and do most of the work.
cf the non-Prodigal Son, the 99 unlost sheep and those who laboured all day in the vineyard.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Eleanor Jane
Shipmate
# 13102
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Posted
I can possibly empathise a bit with this view from a volunteering point of view. Volunteers who've been around forever can develop a big 'entitlement/ ownership' attitude and be very hard work for their manager. (Just because you've done something for 26 years, doesn't mean you're great at it! You may be worse 'cos you're out of date!) New volunteers are usually more polite/ friendly/ cooperative 'cos they're on best behaviour.
The thing I take away from it is trying to make sure I keep encouraging and supporting those who do stuff at church instead of slipping into constant complaints or just not saying anything.
Posts: 556 | From: Now in the UK! | Registered: Oct 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
If my part of Ireland is anything to go by, they would rarely if ever be asked their opinion on anything.
From what those people have said, then don't want their opinions heard, they just want the priest to care about them when they are ill or when a family member dies. (Ideally this would happen in any church, but in those with large congregations or with several congregations lumped together in one Team it doesn't always happen.)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The danger, as I see it, is that regulars cannot necessarily be counted on to do everything while being unsupported - many of those seen as church regulars are going through their own tough times and are inches away from giving it all up. (As has been said by many on the Ship, for example.) Consequently, those in the church need to be nurtured just as much as those outside it.
[ 15. October 2012, 14:09: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
It's always a difficulty for a congregation to both be the church which is called to serve others in need; and be the recipients of such service, when the need is their own.
If clergy are busily occupied with many occasional offices requiring them to spend lots of time with non-churchgers, there is less time to spend pastorally with churchgoers, except for emergencies. The bulk of Christian nurturing for many church members is done through worship, bible study/teaching course opportunities - that kind of thing. Unless there is a large team of staff dividing the labour between them, it's hard to see how much more can be done by the few individuals - lay or clergy who are usually left to get on with keeping parish life ticking over.
There is a different issue with churches which do a lot of outreach to the non-churchgoer. Maybe some congregations feel that their church is too mission-orientated, to their own detriment? But I've rarely belonged to that kind of church, and on the occasions when I did the congos were generally fairly focussed on evangelistic activity anyway.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
My experience is the opposite. The non-church people who come to 'get their babies done' once the baptism is over seem to not see the point of the rest of the service and talk over it--particularly the Intercessions. Weddings of non-church people, well, lets just say in as ugly a church as I attend, you have to be a committed member to actually want to be married in my church. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Funerals of non-church goers can be a mixed bag. Sometimes they are an absolute delight, sometimes they are bog-standard boring C+A (Crimond and Abide with Me) funerals, and sometimes they are pure hell. There is music that none of our regular musicians are able to produce to an acceptable standard (none of us can produce Widor to sound remotely decent on a 15-year old digital piano, for example...) and despite offering high-end digital recordings (frequently my own recordings of other organists, so I have permission to use them) the rudeness can sometimes be astonishing. I also won't play 'I did it my way' simply because I think it's an insult to the piece of music (which I actually rather like, even if I think it's wholly inappropriate for a church funeral) to have it played badly, again we have a CD copy and a PRS license, and offer that, and again, often it's an absolute misery. Yes, I get that they're hurting, but a level of common courtesy seems to be completely lacking. The two funerals for members of our congregation that I've had the privilege to play for, on the other hand, were a sheer delight.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I know my pastor enjoys doing funerals for the un- and underchurched; for him it's a real ministry to hurting and confused people. Baptisms -- sometimes gratifying, sometimes an exercise in wishful thinking that the individuals/families involved will truly become an active part of our church family in the long term. Marriages of non-church people -- usually sheer hell.
I'm guessing this sounds familiar to others.
LC, I could have written your post myself.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Weddings of non-church people, well, lets just say in as ugly a church as I attend, you have to be a committed member to actually want to be married in my church. Funerals of non-church goers can be a mixed bag. Sometimes they are an absolute delight, sometimes they are bog-standard boring C+A (Crimond and Abide with Me) funerals, and sometimes they are pure hell. There is music that none of our regular musicians are able to produce to an acceptable standard (none of us can produce Widor to sound remotely decent on a 15-year old digital piano, for example...) and despite offering high-end digital recordings (frequently my own recordings of other organists, so I have permission to use them) the rudeness can sometimes be astonishing. I also won't play 'I did it my way' simply because I think it's an insult to the piece of music (which I actually rather like, even if I think it's wholly inappropriate for a church funeral) to have it played badly, again we have a CD copy and a PRS license, and offer that, and again, often it's an absolute misery. Yes, I get that they're hurting, but a level of common courtesy seems to be completely lacking. The two funerals for members of our congregation that I've had the privilege to play for, on the other hand, were a sheer delight. [/QB]
We have a pretty village church and get lots of wedding from non church attenders. I’ve just been chatting with our vicar about this, who says, that by and large in their experience the weddings of strangers are a joy.
Church members on the other had can be troublesome, as often think they own the building (and the vicar) and are full of rights and expectations because they are members and they can be very demanding. This can happen of course with non members but it is rare. For instance, a non member is unlikely to demand that we take down Sunday school work from the back of church, in case it ‘spoils their photos’ – something which did happen with one church wedding.
Funerals also we find, that when the deceased or family are church members they have large expectation s of what the church can provide. We have never had a non church family rude when we explain what the church is and isn’t able to provide – they are usually very understanding, if we explain that we can’t play certain music on the organ, but are happy to use CD’s if that’s what they family wish. The family are usually just grateful that we are trying to do what they want.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
My experience is the opposite. The non-church people who come to 'get their babies done' once the baptism is over seem to not see the point of the rest of the service and talk over it--particularly the Intercessions.
This is sort of true at my church. It's not usually the actual couple with the baby, or who are getting married, but some of the friends and family who have been 'dragged' along; everything is hilarious and anyone who tries to offer them a hymn book or the sign of peace is clearly crazy. They usually speed out of the church at the first available opportunity.
Mind you there are a number of regulars who like a nice chat during the sermon. Being at the back with the music group you get to see the worst of everybody's habits.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
For instance, a non member is unlikely to demand that we take down Sunday school work from the back of church, in case it ‘spoils their photos’
We married in Lent (apparently unusual in some quarters) in a modern Catholic church in Dublin. A recent Lenten service had resulted in flowers (nice, we hadn't planned for much that way), but / and emblazoned across the altar on our photos is a huge banner saying 'REPENT'! I rather like it.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
For instance, a non member is unlikely to demand that we take down Sunday school work from the back of church, in case it ‘spoils their photos’
We married in Lent (apparently unusual in some quarters) in a modern Catholic church in Dublin. A recent Lenten service had resulted in flowers (nice, we hadn't planned for much that way), but / and emblazoned across the altar on our photos is a huge banner saying 'REPENT'! I rather like it.
Hehe!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
My experience is the opposite. The non-church people who come to 'get their babies done' once the baptism is over seem to not see the point of the rest of the service and talk over it--particularly the Intercessions.
Well that sounds very sensible. The intercessions can be exruciatingly boring even for regulars, goodness only knows how 'occasionals' cope with it.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Our baptism within the Eucharist service is spread throughout the service so the family feels included at several points. Letting an older brother or sister pour the water into the font, hold the candle, etc. helps to keep the children involved.
But it does get rather hard work when several families are 'done' at once - it reminds me of a Moonie wedding....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
IME it is not the regulars who show up drunk at Christmas Eve services and talk loudly.
Moo
IME as a back-row Bass, that's the Choir!
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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