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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Former Irish President Mary McAleese speaks her mind
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
Last week on Ireland's RTE One Mary McAleese was interviewed by Gay Byrne for one of his Meaning of Life programmes. Freed from the constraints of the office of President of Ireland, Mary has qualified as a Canon Lawyer and spoke freely about her beliefs, which are at odds in many ways with the official Vatican line. She also revealed that Cardinal Bernard Law had accused her in front of an audience in the United States of being a "very poor Catholic president", challenging her views on OoW and ushered President McAleese and the Irish party into a hall to hear a lecture against OoW b, by a Mary Anne Glendon.
McAleese retorted that she was "President for all the people of Ireland, whatever their faith or none, and it was not his business to tell her whether she was a good Catholic or a good President". ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
This was around the same time that the President caused offence to Archbishop Des O'Connell in Dublin by receiving Holy Communion in the Church of Ireland Cathedral. The Cardinal however made a stick to beat himself with by publically describing Communion in the Anglican Churches as a "Sham" and simultaneously condemned the blameless Anglican Archbishop of Dublin, Walton Empey, as not having a similar intellectual pedigree to his own.
Mary McAleese was asked by Gaybo "Are these people stupid?". Her answer was, "No, but they have an arrogance and at times a self-righteousness, some of them, which is inculcated, that is so embedded, that they don't see things through the same prism that you and I would see them."
Her new book, "Quo Vadis?: Collegiality in the Code of Canon Law" is a study of the Vatican II document of Collegiality, where the Bishops and the Pope were to share the power and responsibility of running the Church. The thesis is that "nothing, and worse than nothing, a closing down" has happened. "Views, which in no way touch on what you might call the core deposit of faith, such as the Ordination of Women, have almost been sucked into an area of creeping infallibility". "What are we allowed to talk about? What do we have to accept by the way of handed-down views, particularly at a time, frankly, when those who are handing down those views to us lack a fair degree of credibility in the light of their own embedded practice?"
"We know for example how embedded bad practice was in relation to the reporting of clerical child abuse. And that has I think given many of us pause for thought about if they could be so wrong, so dreadfully wrong, and take so long about accepting the business of how wrong they were, what else could they be wrong about?"
"I've never in the past had any difficulty stating my opinions on some things that I know the Church leadership has different opinions on, whether it was clerical celibacy, gay rights, whether it is women in the church..there was a time when you felt it was possible to air those things and articulate those views without someone saying to you 'Well, are you still a member of the Church, then?'"
"I just meet so many people like myself today, people who tell me that they're holding onto membership of the Church by their fingernails, precisely because of this lack of clarity"
Since this was broadcast, it has been interesting to me to hear from friends and family members just how much what Mary McAleese said, and how she said it, struck a deep chord in them. There was much more said during this conversation, the RTE Player may work for those outside Ireland if you want to see the rest of the programme in context. Try the following link:
http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10064032/
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
An article in yesterday's Irish Times contains more material by Dr McAleese. I suspect that most of my Irish friends will have some sympathy for her points of view. Her interview is, I think, correct in illustrating how many senior Irish hierarchs have little idea of the extent to which their credibility has almost disappeared in recent years. It brings to a Canadian mind how the authority of the once-powerful bishops in Newfoundland evaporated in the wake of the scandals at S Vincent's.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I couldn't get the RTE Player to work. I don't know whether that's because my computer hasn't got something it needs to play it or because the RTE can tell I'm not in Northern Ireland. But Augustine's link was interesting.
I think this is much more fundamental than just whether hierarchs have lost credibility.
From the link, quote:
"There is no forum in the church for determining the views of the People of God on the subject of governance and collegiality, or virtually anything else for that matter".
We're back to the question, 'who is the People of God?' and 'through whom does God speak?' Is it one person, or even a select club of persons, or is it the totality of persons? Are the unordained, just 'the rest', pew-fodder whose job is to sit quietly and accept gratefully what cascades from on high, or do we actually believe that the whole People of God is indeed the whole People of God?
What does one do, what is God saying, if one key person claims He is saying one thing, but the collective People of God don't seem to take any notice, or explicitly or implicitly seem to think He's saying something else?
I can understand why those at the centre might abhor quote:
"the dangers of being governed by opinion polls."
I'd agree. But I don't think one can make the jump from there to, 'everyone else is out of step except our Benny'.
To put it slightly differently, if Mary McAleese is saying that an important part of the job of the hierarchy is to seek to discern what God might be saying through the testimony of the whole People of God, rather than by ignoring them, I would agree. If she should also be saying that if either the hierarchy's theology or its practice doesn't recognise that, it should consider whether it's got its theology seriously wrong, and ought to change it, I'd also agree with her.
I accept it's not really fair for me to comment on this, since I am not a Catholic, but my own church is not immune to this.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
If anyone is having difficulties with the link to the RTE Player outside Ireland, there is an international version which shows only RTE made programmes. Try www.rte.ie/player and type Meaning of Life in the search box. It should default to the international version outside Ireland.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
There is, at the bottom of it all, a mutual responsibility between bishops and their congregation, a responsibility which should be grounded in respect on both sides.
In the Orthodox Church this was symbolised, historically, at a certain stage in the consecration of a bishop where it was considered a necessary element that he was publicly acclaimed as worthy.
Kallistos Ware noted that, in certain instances in the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the last century, the reverse happened. Sadly, the consecration was rubber stamped as valid.
It would, I think, be a wonderful thing if this public acclamation, freely given or withheld, were to be made an essential part of any Catholic or Anglican consecration.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore:
There is, at the bottom of it all, a mutual responsibility between bishops and their congregation, a responsibility which should be grounded in respect on both sides.
In the Orthodox Church this was symbolised, historically, at a certain stage in the consecration of a bishop where it was considered a necessary element that he was publicly acclaimed as worthy.
Kallistos Ware noted that, in certain instances in the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the last century, the reverse happened. Sadly, the consecration was rubber stamped as valid.
It would, I think, be a wonderful thing if this public acclamation, freely given or withheld, were to be made an essential part of any Catholic or Anglican consecration.
Leaving aside Anglicans, with regards to the Catholic Church; in an era of uniformly bad, non-existent or wronger than wrong catechesis, such a practice would not merely be dangerous but certifiably insane.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
To each his/her own viewpoint CL. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Leaving aside Anglicans, with regards to the Catholic Church; in an era of uniformly bad, non-existent or wronger than wrong catechesis, such a practice would not merely be dangerous but certifiably insane.
Why?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
If I might crash in...to say thanks for posting the details of the RTE broadcast. Wife and I just watched it - Mary McA is very impressive. It's hard to imagine a high profile UK politician (wife corrects me...she's president, not politician. Pernickety Fenian...) speaking with such candour (and, more remarkably, authority) on matters of personal faith. I wondered if this is because Catholicism is still sufficiently core to Irish civic identity, that media ridicule might not be expected to immediately follow. Perhaps it says something about the hostility of UK media.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I think the President of Ireland, although elected, performs a similar function to the Queen in England. Interesting that Mary McAleese is a Catholic from Northern Ireland. She and her predecessor Mary Robinson are both women of considerable character who carried out the presidential office with real class. I think it has a lot to do with family background; possible nurture by the nuns (amazing facilitators of sensible, strong and genuinely feminist women) and the nature of Ireland itself. Being less populous than the UK and having an elected Head of State it can do things on a more human scale. I think not having the Imperial heritage Britain has also helps.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yes, I managed to get the second link to work, and was likewise very impressed. Admittedly, she's retired from office but much better than our politicians. And can you imagine any UK politician leaving office and then studying canon law?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes, I managed to get the second link to work, and was likewise very impressed. Admittedly, she's retired from office but much better than our politicians. And can you imagine any UK politician leaving office and then studying canon law?
If anyone has a chance of reforming the Catholic Church it would be someone very like Mary McAleese, an insider with the knowledge of the interal structures and rules to be able to play the Curia at their own game. There is a huge disconnect between the people on the ground and those in authority - the ongoing saga involving Cardinal "Sean" Brady and his possible successor being a case in point.
No matter how much vocal conservatives don't like this fact, Mary McAleese has far more moral authority among ordinary Irish people than any Irish Catholic bishop, with the exceptions of +Willie Walsh of Killaloe and ++Diarmuid Martin of Dublin.
Brady has long proved himself to be "Anaxious" but the Curia will insist on placing another Clone there to prove a point. A point that few will take any notice of. The Church of Ireland has just recently appointed +Richard Clarke of Meath and Kildare to be the new Anglican ++Armagh, should Rome drop the ball again in the same way as they appointed Brady, then the role of senior Churchman with moral authority in Ireland will easily be filled.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes, I managed to get the second link to work, and was likewise very impressed. Admittedly, she's retired from office but much better than our politicians. And can you imagine any UK politician leaving office and then studying canon law?
A minor, perhaps pettifogging, point, but a better parallel would be the Queen retiring and doing a degree. The Irish president has recently rarely a politician, and in recent times has been an outsider of the political establishment. Dr McAleese had never sought nor held office before she became president and her predecessor, Dr Robinson, had only held a university seat in the Irish Senate.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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