|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: 'Worship Music' and Hypnosis
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
Having just (finally!) send a recent book to the publisher I am thinking of new subject areas. One thing that interests me is the role (or possible roles) that music can play in various types of hypnosis. Here is an American radio interview with a former Word–Faith 'healer' from the UK where, among other things, he discusses the role of 'worship music' in helping creating the right atmosphere for hypnosis. Do you recognise what he describes at your church or a church you have visited? I certainly do. I think what he describes as a hypnotic state is what most worship leaders call 'effective worship'.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Ever listened to Spem in alium with your eyes shut?
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
Yes I have.
But then, don't you think repeating words Taize style gives the same effect?
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
Ken,
An important plank in renaissance (and, I think, medieval) musical theory is that musical procedures, as a matter of course, avoid much, if any, literal repetition. The exceptions to this are usually instrumental music, but even then there are procedures in place. You certainly won't find the same bar, short phrase or rhythm repeated 80 or more times without alteration. Even in things like isorhythmic motets, the ostinanti are well hidden--not made into features.
In short, music had to engage your intellect, not merely entertain. Increasingly, musical competence is regarded very lowly in certain circles.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
I'm sure that certain health, wealth and happiness outfits use ASCs in order to counterfeit the presence of God. Cessationists, however, invariably refuse to acknowledge that as a possibility. They tend to argue that ten pound notes don't exist because they've found a forgery.
[ 15. October 2012, 11:56: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
Well Darren, the vast majority of these 'healings' an 'speaking in tongues' and 'floor time', 'drunk in the spirit', etc., ad nauseam, are induced, not sent from God. They are (and have been, many times) easily replicated outside the church/Christian context.
I believe that God can heal people, but I don't believe that people can use magic to heal people. I've seen so many of these things… most of them are induced, behavioural phenomenon.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I'm sure that certain health, wealth and happiness outfits use ASCs in order to counterfeit the presence of God. Cessationists, however, invariably refuse to acknowledge that as a possibility. They tend to argue that ten pound notes don't exist because they've found a forgery.
I think almost all churches of all types use repetitive music to enhance the worship experience. Possibly almost all religions of all types do this. Even those which require silence (possibly) get people into a similar hypnotic state.
And that might not be intentional, or even a bad thing.
And the problem if you find a forged £10 is knowing whether any of the others are genuine.
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
Hmm. I'm not sure if that is contradictory. If you have been put under an voluntary induced hypnosis (or a self-induced hypnosis), is that objectively a bad thing? I don't know.
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
I think there is already a misapprehension appearing in this thread. Most churches do not use repetition to hypnotise their congregations/audiences. Where you find the excessive exposure and repetitious music, you find hypnosis. Music is not required, but it 'helps'. Notice the words 'enhance' have already appeared in this thread--it is, by its very nature, manipulative.
There is a related issue of musical competence, but that's not the OP.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I think there is already a misapprehension appearing in this thread. Most churches do not use repetition to hypnotise their congregations/audiences.
For the sake of argument, I'm disagreeing. I'm suggesting that all church traditions use repetition as a form of hypnosis. Most churches use some sort of repetition in their services, no? How are you determining the ones which are deliberately hypnotic?
quote:
Where you find the excessive exposure and repetitious music, you find hypnosis. Music is not required, but it 'helps'. Notice the words 'enhance' have already appeared in this thread--it is, by its very nature, manipulative.
There is a related issue of musical competence, but that's not the OP.
K.
I don't think music is necessary for hypnosis, period. And I'm not convinced that it is manipulative or deliberate.
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
Long Ranger,
Some repetition is probably present in most denominations, yes, but note that I mention 'excessive' repetition and prolonged exposure. I think saying 'Lord, hear us', ten times following the intercessory prayers is not going to have the same hypnotic effect as saying "Spirit Break Out!" or some such, 80 times and at high volume. I'm interested to find out what qualifies as excessive. It's going to depend on the person and other environmental factors.
I don' think that it is usually deliberate in the sense of 'let's hypnotise the congregation and get them to bark like dogs or speak gibberish', but rather 'let's call on the power of God/Holy Spirit to 'fill this place' [etc.] and then, if we do it right, people will bark like dogs and 'speak in tongues'.
I think most people are after something good, but getting something rather different.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I think there is already a misapprehension appearing in this thread. Most churches do not use repetition to hypnotise their congregations/audiences.
For the sake of argument, I'm disagreeing. I'm suggesting that all church traditions use repetition as a form of hypnosis. Most churches use some sort of repetition in their services, no?
Interesting, I find traditional church jumpy, what do you find repetitious in it, unless you mean each week parallels the one before, but that's true of any ritual -- flag ceremonies etc. Is all ritual "hypnotic"?
And repetition -- it's common in folk songs. Hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nay. Are folk songs hypnotic?
When I hear this complaint, I hear someone looking for an argument to diss church. Repetition is not hypnosis. Or should we refuse to reread a child's favorite story because that would be hypnotic?
Better we should ditch the TV, now that really is hypnotic to some! Even though it is not repetitious per se.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I think there is already a misapprehension appearing in this thread. Most churches do not use repetition to hypnotise their congregations/audiences.
For the sake of argument, I'm disagreeing. I'm suggesting that all church traditions use repetition as a form of hypnosis. Most churches use some sort of repetition in their services, no?
Interesting, I find traditional church jumpy, what do you find repetitious in it, unless you mean each week parallels the one before, but that's true of any ritual -- flag ceremonies etc. Is all ritual "hypnotic"?
And repetition -- it's common in folk songs. Hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nay. Are folk songs hypnotic?
When I hear this complaint, I hear someone looking for an argument to diss church. Repetition is not hypnosis. Or should we refuse to reread a child's favorite story because that would be hypnotic?
Better we should ditch the TV, now that really is hypnotic to some! Even though it is not repetitious per se.
I get the impression you didn't listen to the interview.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Interesting, I find traditional church jumpy, what do you find repetitious in it, unless you mean each week parallels the one before, but that's true of any ritual -- flag ceremonies etc. Is all ritual "hypnotic"?
Yes, I'd have thought so. But maybe it depends on whether the repetition is spacing you out.
I guess I'd put all those things in the category of 'possibly hypnotic'.
quote:
And repetition -- it's common in folk songs. Hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nonny hey nonny nonny nay. Are folk songs hypnotic?
Yes, they can be. Some songs really are designed to be hypnotic and I suspect there is something about a catchy song that-you-find-yourself-unintentionally-repeating that is hypnotic.
quote:
When I hear this complaint, I hear someone looking for an argument to diss church. Repetition is not hypnosis. Or should we refuse to reread a child's favorite story because that would be hypnotic?
Y'see I'm pretty sure (even above the other things I've said before) that there is something very hypnotic about some children's stories. Is that a bad thing? I don't know.
quote:
Better we should ditch the TV, now that really is hypnotic to some! Even though it is not repetitious per se.
Well, put it this way - I have spent some time around people who are epileptic, and that appears to function (for some of them, at least) as a form of hypnosis. They are triggered by different things, some even by the light falling through leaves or certain flickering on the TV.
Whilst the rest of us appear to be less susceptible to the hypnotising effects of the things going on around us, I think there is at least potential for being hypnotised by all kinds of common phenomena.
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Long Ranger,
Some repetition is probably present in most denominations, yes, but note that I mention 'excessive' repetition and prolonged exposure. I think saying 'Lord, hear us', ten times following the intercessory prayers is not going to have the same hypnotic effect as saying "Spirit Break Out!" or some such, 80 times and at high volume. I'm interested to find out what qualifies as excessive. It's going to depend on the person and other environmental factors.
I actually doubt that high volume has much effect on the potential hypnotic effect. I think you're just projecting here against things you don't especially like.
quote:
I don' think that it is usually deliberate in the sense of 'let's hypnotise the congregation and get them to bark like dogs or speak gibberish', but rather 'let's call on the power of God/Holy Spirit to 'fill this place' [etc.] and then, if we do it right, people will bark like dogs and 'speak in tongues'.
I doubt that is true. I've been in places where people have barked like dogs and I've not been aware of anyone suggesting that they should do any such thing.
quote:
I think most people are after something good, but getting something rather different.
K.
I think that using this argument to attack charismatics is unfortunate and pointless. And I'll not participate further in a discussion which is framed by you on these terms.
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I think it happens in non-charismatic circles just as much - is meditation not a form of hypnosis? It's just that charismatics tend to have hypnotic worship every week whereas other groups would have a contemplative service every so often. I certainly am not passing judgement on whether said hypnosis is bad or good though, I don't find it unbelievable that God would instigate hypnosis.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I believe that God can heal people, but I don't believe that people can use magic to heal people. I've seen so many of these things… most of them are induced, behavioural phenomenon.
Are you suggesting that God can heal but only in a direct and unmediated way? Are you suggesting that human agency in alleged miraculous healing always involves some form of hypnotic phenomena?
[ 15. October 2012, 14:03: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Well Darren, the vast majority of these 'healings' an 'speaking in tongues' and 'floor time', 'drunk in the spirit', etc., ad nauseam, are induced, not sent from God. They are (and have been, many times) easily replicated outside the church/Christian context.
I believe that God can heal people, but I don't believe that people can use magic to heal people. I've seen so many of these things… most of them are induced, behavioural phenomenon.
K.
Is God not at work when someone has hypnosis to aid them in quitting smoking? Quitting smoking is surely healing. I'm not doubting that hypnosis happens, I just don't think it's always or even usually bad.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
Yes, I have been in charismatic worship services where the music is hypnotic.
Very relaxing and refreshing imo.
I have also had hypnosis to help deal with trauma - not so relaxing or refreshing but helpful in being able to talk things through and move on.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
Please listen to the interview. Several of you are reading things that are not being argued. Repetitious music does not equal hypnosis--and that has not been argued. The context is vital; if you can't be arsed to listen to the interview for the context of the role music plays in hypnosis, then don't bother trying to discuss it.
I've interviewed and consulted with several hypnotists, clinical and 'stage'; all of them discuss the roles of certain types of repetition--including music. As for making animal sounds, it's been a trait of Kundalini for centuries--it's very easy to explain from a historical and psychological point. That's one of the points made in the interview (and other studies have revealed). Most of these Word–Faith charismatic phenomena can be recreated without any Christian element(s) at all--and get the same results.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
maryjones
Shipmate
# 13523
|
Posted
/tangent. quote:
people who are epileptic, and that appears to function (for some of them, at least) as a form of hypnosis
TWADDLE!
Hypnotism suggests - to me, anyway, being under somebody else's control. Just because somebody having a seizure is not in control of their own body doesn't mean anybody else has taken over.
I suppose you might argue that the Gadarene swine were hypnotised into jumping over that cliff - but anti-convulsive drugs have come on a lot since then!
Posts: 75 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by maryjones:
TWADDLE!
Hypnotism suggests - to me, anyway, being under somebody else's control. Just because somebody having a seizure is not in control of their own body doesn't mean anybody else has taken over.
I suppose you might argue that the Gadarene swine were hypnotised into jumping over that cliff - but anti-convulsive drugs have come on a lot since then!
Well I don't agree that all hypnosis is about being under someone else's control (indeed, I don't think that is at all what is being suggested in this thread) and I certainly do not believe all epilepsy is about seizures.
Which just goes to show how important it is to define terms when attempting to discuss these kinds of things.
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by maryjones:
/tangent. quote:
people who are epileptic, and that appears to function (for some of them, at least) as a form of hypnosis
TWADDLE!
Hypnotism suggests - to me, anyway, being under somebody else's control. Just because somebody having a seizure is not in control of their own body doesn't mean anybody else has taken over.
I suppose you might argue that the Gadarene swine were hypnotised into jumping over that cliff - but anti-convulsive drugs have come on a lot since then!
Good greif! 'Suggests to me'?! Listen to the interview!
One of the central advantages (according to its advocates) of hypnosis is that the participants are aware of what they are doing. Stage hypnosis is something different and it's more dangerous for that reason.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Please listen to the interview. Several of you are reading things that are not being argued. Repetitious music does not equal hypnosis--and that has not been argued. The context is vital; if you can't be arsed to listen to the interview for the context of the role music plays in hypnosis, then don't bother trying to discuss it.
I'm sorry, you are seriously offering 'Way of the Master Radio' as a reliable source? No, sorry, I am not going to listen and discuss that.
I happen to believe that repetitious music can be hypnotic, and I don't really care to hear what Way of the Master Radio says on the subject.
quote:
I've interviewed and consulted with several hypnotists, clinical and 'stage'; all of them discuss the roles of certain types of repetition--including music. As for making animal sounds, it's been a trait of Kundalini for centuries--it's very easy to explain from a historical and psychological point. That's one of the points made in the interview (and other studies have revealed). Most of these Word–Faith charismatic phenomena can be recreated without any Christian element(s) at all--and get the same results.
K.
Yes. But then that conclusion is hardly surprising given the theological bent of Way of the Master Radio.
So let us lay on one side this as a serious piece of information. I'm much more interested in what the hypnotists and stage magicians had to say. Please elucidate.
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
Fallacies: poisoning the well and guilt by association. Welcome to Freshers Week.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Fallacies: poisoning the well and guilt by association. Welcome to Freshers Week.
K.
Right, so we're not supposed to make judgements about the sources where information comes from?
I don't rate this website. Why can't you tell me what these other people you spoke to said on the subject?
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Are you equating hypnotism with "an altered state of consciousness".
I don't think they are the same thing at all.
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
I listened to the interview before posting anything on the thread. My concern about the interview is this: 1) the interviewer clearly has a negative a priori view of charismatic Christianity, not just "word-of-faith" type pentecostalism, 2) the interviewer asks leading questions on at least two occasions by which the interviewee refuses to be drawn.
The interviewer is coming from a cessationist position concerning the charismata. Now, I think he's right about the use of ASCs for ungodly and even possibly evil purposes in the health, wealth and happiness movement. What I don't think he understands is this: the use of hypnotic techniques and neurolinguistic programming is a method of counterfeiting the perfectly legitimate and normal work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the church.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I listened to the interview before posting anything on the thread. My concern about the interview is this: 1) the interviewer clearly has a negative a priori view of charismatic Christianity, not just "word-of-faith" type pentecostalism, 2) the interviewer asks leading questions on at least two occasions by which the interviewee refuses to be drawn.
The interviewer is coming from a cessationist position concerning the charismata. Now, I think he's right about the use of ASCs for ungodly and even possibly evil purposes in the health, wealth and happiness movement. What I don't think he understands is this: the use of hypnotic techniques and neurolinguistic programming is a method of counterfeiting the perfectly legitimate and normal work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the church.
To a large extent I agree with you. What percentage, do you think, of barking, laughing, falling about members of the congo at, say, HTB is the result of behaviour or induced phenomenon and what percentage is of The Holy Spirit?
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
I haven't seen anyone flipping about like a freshly caught fish, mooing like a cow, barking like a dog for a long time. Not, in fact, since the days of the "Toronto Blessing" in the 1990s. I didn't like it.
I have seen people banging their feet on the floor, running on the spot and breathing loudly. I have also seen and heard people shrieking and crying.
I have also heard people, usually young women, moaning orgasmically in way that I found more than a little embarrassing.
In terms of percentages of 'fleshliness' / genuine manifestation of the the Holy Spirit? I don't really know.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Are you equating hypnotism with "an altered state of consciousness".
I don't think they are the same thing at all.
I'm not, nor do I think the interviewee is. I agree with others that the interviewer has an over-bearing agenda. It was a search for the interviewee that led me there. There is another former 'faith healer' from the Bethel group in California who helped Derren Brown on his 'Miracles for Sale' show… which I still haven't seen!
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Where you find the excessive exposure and repetitious music, you find hypnosis. .
Eh? You st\arted this thread with an OP purpiorting to ask if this sort of music could be counted as hypnosis (and the true answer is fo coruse that it can't) and ony a couple of post later you are assuming that it does?
Is that another Father Gregory style OP? Asking a question purely so you can later give away your answer?
And is this thread any more than another instance of the "lets all say bad things about evangelicals" trope so common here. Its gay-bashing over on the othe rpart of the ship but here its ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Evil Alien Mind Control Music Eats Your Brain!
Well, at least we've got more sophisticated in our depravity.
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
You certainly won't find the same bar, short phrase or rhythm repeated 80 or more times without alteration. . [/
QUOTE]
[ahem] Jesus Prayer. Rosary. And so on...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Komensky:
Please listen to the interview. Several of you are reading things that are not being argued. Repetitious music does not equal hypnosis--and that has not been argued. The context is vital; if you can't be arsed to listen to the interview for the context of the role music plays in hypnosis, then don't bother trying to discuss it..
Post a transcript and maybe we'll read it. But no, I can't be arsed to listen to dodgy interviews or watch crappy videos form randomw websites, I don't have the time.
If all you wanted was to point people to that article as a sort of heads-up to a new item then what's the discussion about? I guess most uf the people who read this site do it to read each others opinions - we want to engage with what you think.
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
What percentage, do you think, of barking, laughing, falling about members of the congo at, say, HTB is the result of behaviour or induced phenomenon and what percentage is of The Holy Spirit?
That's not really the same as "hypnosis" is it? Its something the person is doing themselves, probably quite consciously. They choose to do it.
Involuntary hypnosis is probably a bit of a myth anyway. If there were reliable and repeatable techniques for making people believe or do what you wanted them too whether they wanted to or not I suspect that someone whould have packaged it and sold it by now. Or at least used it on all those prisoners at Guantanamo.
[ 15. October 2012, 18:14: Message edited by: ken ]
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
An obvious case IMHO is in "prayers" led while music is playing in the background. Here is someone talking to an audience while arranging for the audience to be distracted from what he is saying. This convention absolutely creeps me out, and why shouldn't it? I've encountered it from televangelists. I assume it happens in live services in some places, but have led too sheltered a life to be certain.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Hmm. I'm not sure if that is contradictory. If you have been put under an voluntary induced hypnosis (or a self-induced hypnosis), is that objectively a bad thing? I don't know.
Worth a thread on its own that one (IMHO).
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I'm sure that certain health, wealth and happiness outfits use ASCs in order to counterfeit the presence of God. Cessationists, however, invariably refuse to acknowledge that as a possibility. They tend to argue that ten pound notes don't exist because they've found a forgery.
I think almost all churches of all types use repetitive music to enhance the worship experience. Possibly almost all religions of all types do this. Even those which require silence (possibly) get people into a similar hypnotic state.
And that might not be intentional, or even a bad thing.
Indeed. Read the psalter-- full of repetition, as well as calls to "mediate" on God's Word. Lectio and other ancient contemplative practices will use it as well. Repetition is vital to meditation, to allowing words to sink in and impact you on a deeper level. If that's "hypnosis", then I guess the biblical writers were guilty of it as well.
[ 15. October 2012, 19:55: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
The Apostles fell into trances and I'm fairly certain that the iPod hadn't been invented so it can't be blamed on Coldplay.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
An obvious case IMHO is in "prayers" led while music is playing in the background. Here is someone talking to an audience while arranging for the audience to be distracted from what he is saying. This convention absolutely creeps me out, and why shouldn't it? I've encountered it from televangelists. I assume it happens in live services in some places, but have led too sheltered a life to be certain.
I'd call this suggestibility rather than hypnosis, but whatever - it creeps me out too! And I can certainly confirm it happens in live services, although not in those of my church as we have a strong 'no hype' ethos. Indeed, I've got so used to this ethos that when I go to a church service that is otherwise similar to my own (e.g. similar songs) but where music is used in this suggestion / hypnosis way, I find it really, really jarring and distracting.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
An obvious case IMHO is in "prayers" led while music is playing in the background. Here is someone talking to an audience while arranging for the audience to be distracted from what he is saying. This convention absolutely creeps me out, and why shouldn't it? I've encountered it from televangelists. I assume it happens in live services in some places, but have led too sheltered a life to be certain.
This sometimes happens in black-led churches.
The equivalent in mainstream churches, perhaps, is when the minister tells you it's time for silent prayer... and then proceeds to talk, very slowly, right over your 'silent' prayer time!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
|
Posted
It seems that the angels worship in very repetative ways - all those Holy's and Worthies .....
God must use very evil mind control techniques on them .... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm not doubting that hypnosis happens, I just don't think it's always or even usually bad.
Probably you agree with the new PC that seduction is bad if the seducer does not obtain and maintain the seducee's permission? Wouldn't it be the same with hypnosis? If hypnotists' intentions are benevolent and respectful, then they should be happy to request, and receive, a patient's permission before proceeding. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that this is always the case. A significant part of the training that Rudyard Kipling's Kim received in order to be an effective secret agent for the British empire was to recognize and reject attempts by others to play with his head in this manner. Sure enough, without this preparation the boy would soon have succombed, probably fatally, to the wiles of an enemy. It's fiction, yes-- but totally realistic.
While strong and regular rhythms are hypnotic, I'd argue that the Christian, or at least Catholic, sacred music tradition tends to eschew them. In Gregorian chant, duple and triple rhythms alternate irregularly. Chanting according to the Solesmes method introduces further complications such that "finding the ictus" is an issue in itself, with results often intriguingly at odds with the syllabic stresses of the words. Much classical polyphony was in the same spirit. They were not written with bar lines. Modern editions providing bar lines in this music are usually not authentic, and honest editors will say so.
So it is in the music of Olivier Messiaen (who was influenced by Tournemire, who was influenced by Gregorian chant a la Solesmes). In Technique of my Musical Language, Messiaen he declares that regular beats are carnal rather than spiritual and that his music rejects them in favor of more unpredictable (although often symmetrical) rhythmic motives. As evidence that Christian meditation might not be quite unique in this regard, Messiaen adopted rhythms from Hindu music.
[ 15. October 2012, 21:07: Message edited by: Alogon ]
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
An obvious case IMHO is in "prayers" led while music is playing in the background. Here is someone talking to an audience while arranging for the audience to be distracted from what he is saying.
I hear it commonly in Black churches. It's background music -- does the music in a movie or TV show distract you? It's meant to enhance the music, and the communication.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Does the music in a movie or TV show distract you? It's meant to enhance the music, [?] and the communication.
You probably mean that the music enhances the drama or the emotion. Of course, and I love it. (Speaking of repetition, I also have, or used to have, a weakness for disco, in its proper place.) But even when the theme or the message of a drama or movie is very spiritual and edifying, it's not the same as worship. For awhile, music was almost continuous in American films; it was a style. Perhaps people expected it because before the "talkies," organists would improvise throughout silent movies. But some critics nowadays will quickly point out when the music or other aspects of a film are "manipulative". This criticism is surely a matter of degree, it connotes cheap shots and lack of subtlety. The best dramas appeal to our minds as well as our emotions.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
Belle & longranger, let's not confuse verbal repetition with musical repetition. And further, let's also not confuse recurrence (a motive or phrase is repeated at intervals) with repetition (the same musical content is repeated without variance or change).
In a number of religious contexts, repetition is used to invoke trance states. The Gnawa music of Morocco is one well-known example. But I'm not aware of this phenomenon occurring in liturgical Christianity. I suppose you could point to litanies and psalmody as related practices to an extent, as both of these use responsive singing and breathing to assist in entering into contemplation--but the goal is not abandonment, extasis, or loss of consciousness. It is, rather, extending consciousness.
On the other hand, as Komensky is no doubt well aware, Brian Eno has been quoted as saying "Repetition is a form of change." And let's not forget Mark E. Smith's cogent observation "Repetition, uh repetition, uh repetition." ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm not doubting that hypnosis happens, I just don't think it's always or even usually bad.
Probably you agree with the new PC that seduction is bad if the seducer does not obtain and maintain the seducee's permission? Wouldn't it be the same with hypnosis? If hypnotists' intentions are benevolent and respectful, then they should be happy to request, and receive, a patient's permission before proceeding. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that this is always the case. A significant part of the training that Rudyard Kipling's Kim received in order to be an effective secret agent for the British empire was to recognize and reject attempts by others to play with his head in this manner. Sure enough, without this preparation the boy would soon have succombed, probably fatally, to the wiles of an enemy. It's fiction, yes-- but totally realistic.
While strong and regular rhythms are hypnotic, I'd argue that the Christian, or at least Catholic, sacred music tradition tends to eschew them. In Gregorian chant, duple and triple rhythms alternate irregularly. Chanting according to the Solesmes method introduces further complications such that "finding the ictus" is an issue in itself, with results often intriguingly at odds with the syllabic stresses of the words. Much classical polyphony was in the same spirit. They were not written with bar lines. Modern editions providing bar lines in this music are usually not authentic, and honest editors will say so.
So it is in the music of Olivier Messiaen (who was influenced by Tournemire, who was influenced by Gregorian chant a la Solesmes). In Technique of my Musical Language, Messiaen he declares that regular beats are carnal rather than spiritual and that his music rejects them in favor of more unpredictable (although often symmetrical) rhythmic motives. As evidence that Christian meditation might not be quite unique in this regard, Messiaen adopted rhythms from Hindu music.
I would certainly agree that hypnosis without permission is bad (and yes, I do think sex without permission means rape). I was thinking of hypnosis with permission, both in the sense of formal permission (eg going to a hypnotist to help quit smoking) or informal (having a hypnotised or trance-like experience in church and going back for more).
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I think the fallacy here is to think that on the one hand there is a genuine, other-worldly Worship Experience™ and on the other an Evil Plot to Deliberately Manipulate People Into False Religion™.
ISTM that arguing that any religious phenomenon which can be duplicated outside christianity is false does not leave you with much religious phenomena, and I'm far from convinced that the neurological mechanisms at work are different simply because the Spirit is present.
To me it's much more a question of intent, degree and respect.
Where I think a lot of charismatic worship has gone wrong (and indeed contaminated a lot of non-charismatic worship) is with the appearance of the "Worship Set". This name betrays the slavish copy of any secular band's set. It puts the musicians centre stage, makes the congregation an audience (and thus more susceptible to manipulation) and removes the spontaneity that characterised the movement in the early days.
I suspect that ultimately, this trend is driven by the christian music industry's desire to sell records (or whatever one sells these days) and that this should be of greater or equal concern than any desire to hypnotise people*.
==
*Most moving recent worship experience: hearing Widor's Toccata in F as the introduction to a service in a Lutheran church in Strasbourg with a massive old organ. Should I move over to Ecclesiantics or seek counselling?
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
An obvious case IMHO is in "prayers" led while music is playing in the background. Here is someone talking to an audience while arranging for the audience to be distracted from what he is saying.
I hear it commonly in Black churches. It's background music -- does the music in a movie or TV show distract you? It's meant to enhance the music, and the communication.
I've never thought of it as a Black church thing, I have seen (or heard) it in all sorts of churches, but primarily in traditional services in mainline churches. It's so ubiquitous that when I'm doing pulpit supply I will usually make a point of telling the organist that if I'm praying and there's a period of silence-- that's intentional! Sometimes being quiet is actually a good thing! Some organists take more than a little convincing that it's not their job to "fill" every silence.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Belle & longranger, let's not confuse verbal repetition with musical repetition. And further, let's also not confuse recurrence (a motive or phrase is repeated at intervals) with repetition (the same musical content is repeated without variance or change).
Why not? Because it doesn't serve your point?
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
In a number of religious contexts, repetition is used to invoke trance states. The Gnawa music of Morocco is one well-known example. But I'm not aware of this phenomenon occurring in liturgical Christianity. I suppose you could point to litanies and psalmody as related practices to an extent, as both of these use responsive singing and breathing to assist in entering into contemplation--but the goal is not abandonment, extasis, or loss of consciousness. It is, rather, extending consciousness.
Yes, exactly. Repetition and meditation are common-- quite common-- in liturgical Christianity and even more so in contemplative Christianity. But the goal is different than than what might find in some other religious contexts. So one can surmise that repetition and meditation might be also used in charismatic churches for a reason other than "loss of consciousness".
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Belle & longranger, let's not confuse verbal repetition with musical repetition. And further, let's also not confuse recurrence (a motive or phrase is repeated at intervals) with repetition (the same musical content is repeated without variance or change).
I'm not sure I was confusing that. I think liturgy can sometimes put people into a semi-catatonic state. I'm not even sure this is less likely than repetitive music.
quote:
In a number of religious contexts, repetition is used to invoke trance states. The Gnawa music of Morocco is one well-known example. But I'm not aware of this phenomenon occurring in liturgical Christianity. I suppose you could point to litanies and psalmody as related practices to an extent, as both of these use responsive singing and breathing to assist in entering into contemplation--but the goal is not abandonment, extasis, or loss of consciousness. It is, rather, extending consciousness.
I beg to differ. Chanting has the well-known property of causing trances.
Let me say - I am a fan of liturgy. But I think it can be a factor in causing a form of hypnosis when matched with a lot of standing-up-sitting-down positions, the combination of sounds and movement and so on.
I have totally zoned out during liturgy, I know that can happen. But I reiterate, I'm not sure it is necessarily a bad thing.
quote:
On the other hand, as Komensky is no doubt well aware, Brian Eno has been quoted as saying "Repetition is a form of change." And let's not forget Mark E. Smith's cogent observation "Repetition, uh repetition, uh repetition."
I think this underlines a point I was trying to make above: there are many things in our lives that have a potentially hypnotic effect.
--------------------
"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
It seems that the angels worship in very repetative ways - all those Holy's and Worthies .....
God must use very evil mind control techniques on them ....
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Hi Twangist - good to see you on here again!
I've recently recorded two BBC1 programmes from NF Church of Christ the King, Brighton, "Pentecost Praise" (below) and this week's Songs of Praise - I hear there is another in the pipeline too.
Live Pentecost Praise from CCK Brighton on BBC1
Hand on heart, I absolutely love some of this music! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I wouldn't call it "hypnotic" at all - rousing maybe, but what's wrong with that? If there was an NF church near me which had music like that, I would pop in now and again - my only worry would be that I might be kicked out for being a "Jezebel spirit," but I could be wrong. Would they do this, or do they welcome others from different denominations who have no intention of converting?
As I said, I wouldn't accuse this stuff of being hypnotic - which is more than can be said for some!...
The Occult in the Church (discernment video)
--------------------
"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
