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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Emotional responses in worship - where do we draw the line?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The idea for this has come out of the musical thread that Komensky started.
It seems to me that as creaturely creatures, some kind of holistic and emotional response in worship is inevitable. This may be 'charismatic' in flavour, or it be be feelings of awe etc induced by Gregorian chant, the music of Bach, by great architecture etc.
How could it be otherwise?
Through my interest in poetry I'm becoming aware of how certain beats/metres fit the natural rhythms of walking or breathing and the beat of the heart etc - of the effects of the 'falling cadence' and so on.
Now - without getting tangled up in what styles of music are or aren't appropriate, I'm interested in exploring the issues of expectation, suggestibility and mildly altered states.
Daronmedway observes that the Apostles went into trances - yes, it would seem so from the book of Acts - and that without ipods and Coldplay ...
My questions are:
Does this then make it legitimate/acceptable for people to fall into trance-like states today?
The trances and so on we read about in Acts don't appear to have been 'induced' by cues, mood-music or any other form of stimulus such as those discussed on the music thread - so were there of a different order to what we find today where these things are employed to create mood and atmosphere?
Where do we draw the line?
Are rollings on the floor, prostrations, laughing or tears examples of Daronmedway's genuine '£10 notes' or are they counterfeit.
Is there such a thing, even, as counterfeit in these instances anyway as they don't appear to accord with what we find in scripture - other than, perhaps, some of the things the prophets got up to in the OT - Saul lying naked all night and so on ...
Answers on a postcard please ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The trances and so on we read about in Acts don't appear to have been 'induced' by cues, mood-music or any other form of stimulus such as those discussed on the music thread - so were there of a different order to what we find today where these things are employed to create mood and atmosphere?
I think it's quite hard to actually know this, simply because the brief descriptions in Acts aren't the equivalent of a video recording. We don't really have a lot to go on about the 'mood' and 'atmosphere' in which things occurred.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Are rollings on the floor, prostrations, laughing or tears examples of Daronmedway's genuine '£10 notes' or are they counterfeit.
I have witnessed all of these and I don't think 'counterfeit' is the word I'd use. But I did find them pretty embarrassing. A bit like they were having a public orgasm with God, if you see what I mean.
Some things are best done in private.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Caissa
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# 16710
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Posted
I might not call them counterfeit but the ones I have seen have been most definitely contrived.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, I got quite heavily into that stuff at one time and found I could quite easily 'induce' it in other people. I found spiritual pride welling up ...
'Look at me, people fall over or shake when I pray for them ...'
I began to back off from that point, when I realised I was getting a power-kick or 'buzz' out of it.
Looking back, I can think of one or two instances where things didn't appear to be so 'conditioned' or done on cue - but overall I think there was a self-fulfilling prophecy sense of expectation built-up which made some kind of 'release' of this kind (if that doesn't stray too far into the analogy that Boogie has used) became inevitable.
I'm not sure that these things were always 'altered states' or full-on hypnosis though - but I'm pretty sure they were pretty 'fleshly' over all.
But then, we are creaturely creatures, as I've said. So to some extent we must expect the vatic and the numinous to work itself out/display itself in a way that can be physically described or discerned.
But there's a fine line ... a very fine line ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Looking back, I can think of one or two instances where things didn't appear to be so 'conditioned' or done on cue - but overall I think there was a self-fulfilling prophecy sense of expectation built-up which made some kind of 'release' of this kind (if that doesn't stray too far into the analogy that Boogie has used) became inevitable.
It doesn't stray at all from my analogy. A large part of orgasm is release of tension. I think that's maybe why I found the two things looked similar, and would be similarly embarrassing done in public!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Mmm. I don't know. Nobody induced me deliberately to do anything, and yet I experienced some of the things discussed above - despite being heavily skeptical about it beforehand and never experiencing it again in the same way.
I remember the small number of experiences I had as very tender, beautiful and peaceful. Similar (although obviously very different) to that rush when reaching a mountaintop and seeing a great view and being able to see the milky-way on a very clear night.
I'd be happy to call the things I felt hypnosis on the basis that my state of consciousness was altered. Whether or not they were genuine is hard for me to assess (mostly because in my current doubting state, I'm not really sure of anything), but I do not believe they were 'fleshly' in the sense that anyone deliberately did it to me.
In contrast, I have also experienced strange visual phenomena that others have told me sound drug induced. I do not believe anyone gave me anything, but am wondering whether there was some kind of deliberate manipulation and suggestion going on.
I wouldn't particularly look to experience either again, but wouldn't be upset if I found myself in the former state again.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I would think that those running the gatherings where this happens should bear a huge responsibility, to make sure people are alright (not having an epileptic fit, or something) and not to introduce susceptibility to anything dodgy while people are under the 'influence', rather like you would do with someone under the influence of drink, for example. Perhaps there should be a Code of Practice - an informal one of honour, if not an actual written document.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Where do we draw the line?
How do we draw the line?
Do we tell people to stop? Do we judge them and feel self-satisfied we are reasonably certain that it's self-induced? Do we decide "I'm never going to do that"? Is there a better way to draw the line? Is it down to the person at the 'front' to do so?
I think some things you just have to let people get on with. I was at Soul Survivor this year, and there were a few points at which there was some screaming going on during the ministry time. But then I thought about it. We're in a tent with 6,000 people, and there's probably about 3 people screaming. That means that there's 5,997 people just getting on with it without screaming.
Obviously it runs through my mind that the screaming people could be attention-seekers, demon-possessed, letting out emotion over some painful thing in their lives, or actually being ministered to by the Holy Spirit. I've no idea. I'd rather they weren't screaming, but there's that possibility that what's happening with them is something 'good'. If I 'draw the line' at screaming, then I am essentially saying that screaming can never be good, and I'm not sure I have the knowledge or authority to say that.
I do think you can (and should) say that there's no need to manufacture things, that God can do what he wants, when he wants, and at most (good) charismatic meetings I've been to (incl. Soul Survivor) that's made clear from the very start. I've also seen the bad, and it made me feel sick. But fortunately my experience has mostly been positive.
For me it's more about good/balanced and bad/hyped ways of doing things though, rather than drawing the line and making some behaviour acceptable, some not. I mean, David danced around naked. I'd call that unacceptable, but for some reason scripture doesn't seem to have a problem with it.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I think people should just go to a church where they can feel at home, be challenged, and have the opportunity to grow in spiritual wisdom, holiness and service.
If you don't like churches where people make a lot of noise and fall on the floor, then don't attend such churches. As for whether such behaviour is 'genuine', who's to judge? 'By their fruits shall ye know them' is perhaps the measure to apply.
We should also consider that this kind of worship provides psychological release for a certain kind of person who simply wouldn't fit in at your church. Maybe the Holy Spirit deals with each 'according to his need', and what someone else needs at the moment might not be what you need. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit can't be present both with you and them.
There's a concern that raucous behaviour in church can be offputting to outsiders, or give Christianity a 'bad name', and that might be so. But in our world, almost everything that might happen in a church seems to be offputting to somebody! Churches can't win, whatever they do!
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
[QUOTE]It doesn't stray at all from my analogy. A large part of orgasm is release of tension. I think that's maybe why I found the two things looked similar, and would be similarly embarrassing done in public!
Oh come, let us adore him ...
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I'd be interested to hear some first-hand accounts of those people who seem to have exhibited the (for want of a better phrase) 'wilder' emotional responses.
Do you know anyone who barked like a dog? Did they do it a lot? Are they generally into drugs or mentally ill?
I know well people who have experienced shaking, falling over etc. Mostly they're fairly normal, these kinds of things are exceptional. That was certainly my experience.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Having, in the past, attended a Pentecostal church, plus enjoying the "Refreshing" evenings that were very prevalent then, I have seen most of the behaviours mentioned in the preceding posts.
The one person barking like a dog (on all fours, I might add) I didn't know, though I hadn't heard anything about him to suggest he was mentally ill. I have to say that the churches I attended these meetings in were very careful not to let anyone they knew to be mentally ill (although they didn't of course know this about everyone) get involved in some of the wilder manifestations.
Having said all of that, there is a lot of emotional hype going on, and a subtle way of suggesting you "should" be doing something, even if its only fall on the floor and stay there. (Actually quite a good idea if you want to opt out!)
There is always a worship session beforehand, with clapping, hand waving and ecstatic utterances expected. All the people, yes, including me, who did things like that were perfectly normal, expressing, as we saw it, our love for Jesus and familiarity with the Holy Spirit.
But it is very easy for the leaders to take over, and emotional manipulation certainly does go on. Even physical help for the ones being prayed for, who were expected to fall down! Its very easy - if you are standing, probably with feet more or less together, with the Pastor close in, with his hand on your head, you can begin to sway a bit, and there is nowhere to go but backwards, into the arms of the catchers who then lower you to the ground.
Some meetings I have enjoyed, felt release of tension (no, I don't think I had an orgasm ) and felt close to God. Others I have felt manipulated, and found what was going on false and more an ego-ride for the leaders.
I think those Refreshing Meetings have fizzled out now, though not being on the Pentecostal/Charismatic information line now, I could be wrong!
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I've heard second hand accounts (someone else went and witnessed, came back and described) of people barking like dogs on all fours at Kingdom Faith's Faith Camp two or three years back.
I attended a service at the height of the Toronto Blessing (Shaftesbury Christian Centre) where most of the congregation ended up on the floor, but to me it looked like self-hypnosis. Lots of repetitive singing, electric atmosphere, hands in the air, swaying, suggestion from the pastor at the front ... when a few people went down a lot more followed.
The last HTB service I attended was more about convincing people to give more to support the forthcoming year's work and the work of Alpha.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Are rollings on the floor, prostrations, laughing or tears examples of Daronmedway's genuine '£10 notes' or are they counterfeit.
I have witnessed all of these and I don't think 'counterfeit' is the word I'd use. But I did find them pretty embarrassing. A bit like they were having a public orgasm with God, if you see what I mean.
Some things are best done in private.
I was going to make the same suggestion, but for a different reason. In early Christian tradition, one usually went out into the desert alone for such experiences, enduring the elements, going hungry, and mortifying the flesh. They didn't come cheap. Cities were considered safe places, the wilderness relatively diabolical territory. Going there was not for the faint of heart but for spiritual warriors. Among Old Testament figures, St. John the Baptist and Jesus were examples. There may be exceptions in Acts etc.; but if they are important or numerous enough to be noteworthy counterexamples, someone will need to make a case for them.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Having watched Ian Hislop's series on the Stiff Upper Lip, I'm coming round to the view that there's a great deal to be said for it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
On balance, I would agree with the long ranger and Nicodemia that the people who are involved with this sort of thing are generally very 'normal' ...
But I do think it's got a lot to do with personality type and susceptibility. My wife never once 'fell over' or shook or did any of those things and began to feel that she was 'different' or abnormal for not doing so.
I'd also suggest that there isn't anything of a sexual nature going either - there is a sense of release of tension in these meetings but I don't think there's any latent eroticism involved - despite appearances to the contrary in some instances.
I've done the falling over thing and on the first occasion there was nothing expected or induced about it - it took me and everyone else by surprise and I did have a profound sense of peace and tranquility - of acceptance by God and so on. I don't know how to explain that.
I think, though, that in the kind of circles where these things take place there is a kind of 'anchoring' of responses to particular cues and suggestions - which is why these things seem to happen over a protracted period of 'refreshing' and what-have-you. I soon realised that there was a kind of 'Toronto liturgy' at work where the conditions could easily be replicated or created where this stuff could be expected to happen.
I know I've asked whether these things are 'real' or legit or counterfeit but really I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I think they make sense within their own frame of reference and within their own terms - but that's about as far as it goes. They are seen as reinforcements or practical evidence for the presence of the divine.
Whether or how far they equate to some of the things we read about in the scriptures is a moot point. We don't actually know who the OT prophets behaved but it does seem as if there was some fairly 'wild' behaviour at times.
The NT doesn't give much hint of revivalist or ecstatic behaviour, it seems to me. Sure, there are tongues and prophecies and so on but I don't see much textual evidence for these being particularly emotional or loud and lairy.
There really ain't that much evidence to go on, truth be told.
On the whole, I would suggest that most of this stuff is fairly harmless - or neutral. For some people it may even be therapeutic and helpful.
I'm always wary, though, when I hear the instance of David dancing in his nappy (diaper) cited as evidence for how the Lord would have us behave in worship - it seems to be taken completely out of context 9 times out of 10.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
To be fair to charismatic claims--
In a cyber-discussion with a knowledgeable charismatic years ago, I argued for the apostolic succession by saying that there was no case in the New Testament of anyone bestowing Confirmation (as we now call it) who had not been ordained. He shot back that there was also no case in the New Testament of anyone receiving Confirmation who did not immediately make it clear to any witnesses that something unusual and remarkable had just happened.
It still seems to me like a reply to be taken seriously.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Having watched Ian Hislop's series on the Stiff Upper Lip, I'm coming round to the view that there's a great deal to be said for it.
It sounds fascinating, Enoch. I wish that I could tune in-- but my roof antenna has tumbled down and I can't find anyone to sell me a new one. So here I am, in one of the largest metropolitican areas of the U.S., and I had better TV reception when living in the stix.
Wikipeda says that Ian Hislop has been much sued. Perhaps this is part of why he would take an interest in the subject. The stiff upper lip is incompatible with being enough of a crybaby to pursue lawsuits over relative trivialities. As long as suing is so lucrative a pastime, the stiff upper lip is doomed.
[ 18. October 2012, 00:28: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Now - without getting tangled up in what styles of music are or aren't appropriate, I'm interested in exploring the issues of expectation, suggestibility and mildly altered states.
Daronmedway observes that the Apostles went into trances - yes, it would seem so from the book of Acts - and that without ipods and Coldplay ...
My questions are:
Does this then make it legitimate/acceptable for people to fall into trance-like states today?
The trances and so on we read about in Acts don't appear to have been 'induced' by cues, mood-music or any other form of stimulus such as those discussed on the music thread - so were there of a different order to what we find today where these things are employed to create mood and atmosphere?
Where do we draw the line?
Are rollings on the floor, prostrations, laughing or tears examples of Daronmedway's genuine '£10 notes' or are they counterfeit.
In the early 1990s during the so-called "Toronto Blessing" for some reason the chief - and most highly prized - manifestation was uncontrollable laughter accompanied by the appearance of drunkenness. I can remember watching a young man manifesting these phenomena in quite an exaggerated way while he, at the same time, surreptitiously looked around the congregation to see who was watching him. My reaction as spectator was a combination of pity, anger and disappointment.
When I got home I went to my bedroom, got on the floor, I asked God to show me if the whole shebang was fakery. I really sought the Lord earnestly because I didn't want to be involved in anything which wasn't from him. After about 10-15 minutes worth of such prayer, face down on the floor, I had a very clear vision of Christ on the cross. My emotional response to this vision alternated between periods of inexpressible joy and exultation (accompanied by laughter) and unspeakable sorrow and grief (accompanied by weeping). I had a very strong sense that I was experiencing what people call "the Father heart of God" and that the Holy Spirit was interpreting my emotions to God as a form of non-verbal worship.
I still left the church due to what I still perceived to be fleshly excess but with the sense that such experiences can genuinely be from God.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've done the falling over thing and on the first occasion there was nothing expected or induced about it - it took me and everyone else by surprise and I did have a profound sense of peace and tranquility - of acceptance by God and so on. I don't know how to explain that.
Ditto, my experience exactly.
quote:
I think, though, that in the kind of circles where these things take place there is a kind of 'anchoring' of responses to particular cues and suggestions - which is why these things seem to happen over a protracted period of 'refreshing' and what-have-you. I soon realised that there was a kind of 'Toronto liturgy' at work where the conditions could easily be replicated or created where this stuff could be expected to happen.
That is an interesting point. I never attended a church where falling over was common (though it was an accepted part of life), but there was talk of a point in the service which would be 'given over to a time of blessing', which implied that stuff was going to happen. Soft music would play, people would often shake or assume positions or expressions of bliss. Sometimes that wasn't me, but quite often it was. It was a comfortable space, I liked it.
So yes, I think there was expectation. But I still think it is hard to show that there was deliberate suggestion of faking going on.
Maybe we all needed to find that bit of silence and space without caring too much what other people were doing. Maybe that was no bad thing.
quote:
I know I've asked whether these things are 'real' or legit or counterfeit but really I'm not sure that's the right question to ask. I think they make sense within their own frame of reference and within their own terms - but that's about as far as it goes. They are seen as reinforcements or practical evidence for the presence of the divine.
I agree with this too. I suppose in my doubting current self, I'm wondering whether it was all something I dreamed up for myself by being with other people who also wanted this kind of thing to happen. But then at least some of the time it was a beautiful moment, so I don't know that I'd unanimously call it bad even now.
quote:
On the whole, I would suggest that most of this stuff is fairly harmless - or neutral. For some people it may even be therapeutic and helpful.
Generally I'd agree. I think there is a question of the point where it gets dangerous, which I think would be a good thing to discuss. But yes, I'm not sure there is anything fundamentally bad about it.
I suppose my main worry is the tendency of some to become hooked to this kind of thing. So they very regularly attend meetings where this kind of thing happens and spend a lot of time talking about 'words of knowledge' and revivals and whatnot.
I guess if it exists at all in any real sense, it is a 'mountaintop' rather than a daily experience. And as far as I'm concerned, should probably stay like that.
quote:
I'm always wary, though, when I hear the instance of David dancing in his nappy (diaper) cited as evidence for how the Lord would have us behave in worship - it seems to be taken completely out of context 9 times out of 10.
Doesn't really bother me. Everyone seems to create a Jesus to fit their own image as far as I can see.
Good post.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Wikipeda says that Ian Hislop has been much sued. Perhaps this is part of why he would take an interest in the subject. The stiff upper lip is incompatible with being enough of a crybaby to pursue lawsuits over relative trivialities. As long as suing is so lucrative a pastime, the stiff upper lip is doomed.
Hislop is a very British character, but I'm not sure his stiff upper lip is directly linked to his ability to be sued.
He is the editor of a satirical magazine and takes the attitude that this is essentially painting a bullseye on his chest - and comes with it the threat of being sued.
Stiff upper lip isn't just about magnanimously and cheerfully accepting the inevitable consequences of one's choices.
As far as I'm concerned, it is about facing adversity and bad stuff without cracking emotionally. Just getting on with it with none of that namby-pamby continental over-emotionalism.
It isn't so often seen today, and largely that is a good thing.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
I think that the suspicion of emotional responses to the Holy Spirit among British Conservative Evangelicals is directly related to the stiff upper lip mentality inculcated by the public school system. I really do.
My experience of Conservative Evangelicalism (of the St Helen's Bishopsgate variety) over the past four years convinces me that it is, at least unofficially, a closed shop to anyone who wasn't educated in a good public school.
Yes, you can hold the same theology and go to the same conferences but the reality is this: if you didn't become a Christian at the same school as someone else or through some kind of University Christian Fellowship then there is a big question mark over your Christian credentials.
[ 18. October 2012, 08:09: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks the long ranger - I think thee and me are pretty much on the same page on this one.
@daronmedway - interesting. I've never had a 'vision' in the way you describe but have had other experiences of a somewhat 'mystical' or charismatic nature ... I certainly wouldn't want to write-off or call into question what you experienced but do wonder whether there's something a bit self-fulfilling about some of these things ie. if a Sufi mystic did the same thing would they report some kind of Sufi vision or a Hindu mystic a vision of Ganesh or whatever ...
Still - I think the Holy Spirit does take our non-verbal prayers and yearnings and interpret them in some way and, yes, because we're creaturely then I don't see why it's unreasonable to expect the imagination or something 'visionary' to be involved from time to time - with due care, caution and caveats in place, of course.
I s'pose my theology/spirituality still has space for such things although I wouldn't put as great weight or emphasis on this stuff any more - we may have had too much cheese the night before ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I remember a scene in one of those Pasolini films where he used to use peasants as actors and so on, where a late-medieval/early Renaissance artist wakes up one night to see the Virgin Mary and hosts of angels filling his bedroom - and looking very much as they do in early Italian Renaissance altar-pieces. He looks up for a while then turns over and goes back to sleep. In the next scene he's painting a triptych nonchalantly as if this sort of thing happens every day ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's a while since I encountered public-school conservative evangelicalism, Daronmedway, but I think your analysis holds true to an extent in the precise circles you've identified - but out in the sticks conservative evangelicalism doesn't have that kind of background in my experience.
I've also encountered plenty of 'Bash-camp' style charismatic public-school types. Believe it or not, the restorationist new-church network I was involved with for 18 years had a smattering of very posh public school people (some of them the sons and daughters of missionaries) alongside those with a more working class South Walian or West Yorkshire background. It was an interesting mix.
But I don't think you can write the whole conservative evangelical reserve thing off as a public-school/stiff-upper-lipped phenomenon. I grew up in South Wales and my first evangelical contacts were among the Brethren and they were pretty reserved about all this stuff - and none of them had public school backgrounds. Quite the opposite.
There were some Pentecostal refugees among them - but then the traffic sometimes went the other way.
If anything, I'd suggest that HTB-style/New Wine charismatic evangelicalism is as much tinged/influenced by the kind of public school evangelicalism you're talking about as St Helen's Bishopgate or any of the other conservative evangelical outfits.
As a lad from the Valleys who went to a bog-standard comprehensive I'd like to tell the toffee-nosed bastards in both traditions to take a running jump ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I think that the suspicion of emotional responses to the Holy Spirit among British Conservative Evangelicals is directly related to the stiff upper lip mentality inculcated by the public school system. I really do.
My experience of Conservative Evangelicalism (of the St Helen's Bishopsgate variety) over the past four years convinces me that it is, at least unofficially, a closed shop to anyone who wasn't educated in a good public school.
Yes, you can hold the same theology and go to the same conferences but the reality is this: if you didn't become a Christian at the same school as someone else or through some kind of University Christian Fellowship then there is a big question mark over your Christian credentials.
This is a very interesting point. Within Anglican Conservative Evangelicalism (sigh, these terms are so misleading - the most Conservative Evangelicals are not charismatic and consider these things to be of the devil..) there is most definitely a bias towards the privately educated.
Justin Welby was from Eton - though having been in churches with him quite a few times, I'm not sure he is really particularly charismatic. John Irvine, the previous Dean of Coventry (who worked with Bishop Justin for a long time) is very charismatic and was associated with the Alpha course and HTB, He was a barrister and (I think) went to Eton. As, I think, did Nicky Gumbel.
That is just three people of influence in this group that I can think of.
But then I'm not sure if that is exactly the same subset as St Helen's Bishopsgate. I don't know anything about that church.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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David Powell
Apprentice
# 5545
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Posted
Speaking of stiff upper lip; as a British male, I'm unusually inclined to weep occasionally in worship and especially during hymns. I'm slightly embarrassed by this but, since I am the organist, can hide behind my console. We're fairly high Anglo-Catholic so it's not really hip to be doing lots of evangelical emoting. Maybe it's just a phase I'm going through.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I wonder if it is possible to put a line between the kinds of charismatics that are into New Wine/HTB/Vineyard and other kinds. It is a while since I moved in these circles, but I don't recall there being much cross-over with Pentecostals and other charismatic churches (I'm not even sure they go to the same conferences etc).
As I said, I've been in a lot of HTB style services. And one of the few occasions that I actually walked out of a church was during a highly charismatic (I think Elim Pentecostal) service where there was a lot of falling over and other 'expressions'.
I'm not trying to diss Elim Pentecostals because I don't know much about them. I'm just wondering whether the HTB style is on the mild end of the spectrum.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Elim Pentecostal churches are fairly autonomous under that banner from my understanding of it - having worked with a couple of Elim Pentecostal ministers locally on ecumenical stuff.
The Kingdom Faith Faith Camp description comes from a visit made to some church members various attending the camp by a group of local ministers, and that group included one of the Elim Pentecostal ministers, who found the Kingdom Faith expressions too extreme.
HTB is going to remain highly public school influenced. One of its big sources of congregants is Imperial College, London University. The churchyard backs on to the mews behind the big student hall complex and it's the student union church. And Imperial tends to have a high proportion of public school pupils.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
"Where's your stiff upper lip, man?
Above this loose flabby chin!"
Gamaliel, I think you are right that some emotional responses are to be expected when folks are engaged in worship. That makes individuals vulnerable.
I agree with those who have observed some contrivance, imitative behaviour, even fakery. Been there, seen that, never done it. There is also genuine and sincere response. When two people do the same thing it is wrong to assume they do so for the same reason (Old Russian proverb, favourite of mine).
It's simple to say, not easy to do, but service leaders and supporters need to be wise in their responses and also aware of the dangers of emotional manipulation, of taking advantage of the fact that we are, inter alia, creatures who feel, who can be stirred.
It's an old problem. "Let all things be done in order" "But quench not the smoking flax". That's a C S Lewis-ism I think. It does no harm to have teaching on the issue which helps congregations in their understanding. Self-control in public places is important. So is giving room for the expression of deep feeling, rather than believing that only stiff-upper-lip suppression will do, Expression of deep feeling tells the expressor and others that something significant is going on in that person. That needs to be respected, accommodated.
As a general rule, it is helpful to have folks in support who understand these things, are prepared to move in and help, sometimes in situ, sometimes by gently guiding the person to a quieter, more private place, sometimes just letting folks "be" and encouraging those nearest to do the same. I don't think you can generalise about what response is best.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Ah that's interesting.
Imperial College is no longer part of the University of London though.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Wikipeda says that Ian Hislop has been much sued. Perhaps this is part of why he would take an interest in the subject. The stiff upper lip is incompatible with being enough of a crybaby to pursue lawsuits over relative trivialities. As long as suing is so lucrative a pastime, the stiff upper lip is doomed.
Alogon I think you may be suffering from cross-cultural dislocation on this. Ian Hislop is a very well known person here whom many of us respect.
As well as appearing on television, he is the editor of a magazine called Private Eye which publishes a lot of the stories about the soft underbelly of public life that other newspapers daren't publish. So people regularly sue him and Private Eye for libel.
Libel here isn't usually about 'delicate feelings'. It's about reputation, honour and the smell of money.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Stiff upper lip isn't just about magnanimously and cheerfully accepting the inevitable consequences of one's choices.
As far as I'm concerned, it is about facing adversity and bad stuff without cracking emotionally. Just getting on with it with none of that namby-pamby continental over-emotionalism.
It isn't so often seen today, and largely that is a good thing.
Why? Are you saying that when life is hard, it's a bad thing just to get on with it, and a good thing to crack up emotionally? You seem to be.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Why? Are you saying that when life is hard, it's a bad thing just to get on with it, and a good thing to crack up emotionally? You seem to be.
I think that the assumption that emotions should always be hidden is a bad thing. Not always, but quite a lot of the time.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I wonder if it is possible to put a line between the kinds of charismatics that are into New Wine/HTB/Vineyard and other kinds. It is a while since I moved in these circles, but I don't recall there being much cross-over with Pentecostals and other charismatic churches (I'm not even sure they go to the same conferences etc).
As I said, I've been in a lot of HTB style services. And one of the few occasions that I actually walked out of a church was during a highly charismatic (I think Elim Pentecostal) service where there was a lot of falling over and other 'expressions'.
I'm not trying to diss Elim Pentecostals because I don't know much about them. I'm just wondering whether the HTB style is on the mild end of the spectrum.
Five to ten years ago I would have agreed with this. However, Nicky Gumbel's 'new thing' is pairing up with Pentecostals. Two years ago at their summer retreat (Home Focus) I watched Judah Smith give a hysterical 'talk' (you don't call them sermons in those circles) that I could not have imagined happening only a few years earlier. While HTB goes through periods (long periods?!) of weirdness, it is rooted in the CofE and I think that this keeps the clergy and active laity from going off the rails. Nicky is explicitly a Trinitarian--and I cannot say the same for other C of E charismatic churches in my area. But I digress…
Of course delicacy is required in discussing emotional responses because even when we have good evidence that some practices are induced or imitative types of behaviour (as opposed to spontaneous movements of the Spirit) the participants experience them as real. Once that bond, that connection is made in the mind the person (that God has spoken to them directly through this experience) little good will come from confronting them and telling them what they experienced was something else. I can't think of a single way to avoid these sorts of things. Note well that physical manifestations attributed to The Holy Spirit are not new, but their frequency is new. Epilepsy was often confused for spontaneous reactions to 'the movement of the Holy Spirit' in medieval and renaissance periods--just as an example.
One area where I think a delicate vigilance can be exercised is taking more care in the mixing of (whatever denomination) Christian practices with folkloric or indigenous ones; what is called 'popular religion' in the old texts (I suppose we might now use 'superstition'). This can range from rural practices in the developing world (a missionary friend in sub-Saharan Africa has told me some really scary stories!) to the influence of the New Age movement or other, seemingly occult, practices.
The emphasis on emotional response cannot be laid solely at the feet of charismatics--the is a long Catholic tradition here too, involved trances, visions, prophecies and even 'levitation'. Why not create your church service to avoid the deliberate fostering of emotional reactions without forbidding them?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Five to ten years ago I would have agreed with this. However, Nicky Gumbel's 'new thing' is pairing up with Pentecostals. Two years ago at their summer retreat (Home Focus) I watched Judah Smith give a hysterical 'talk' (you don't call them sermons in those circles) that I could not have imagined happening only a few years earlier. While HTB goes through periods (long periods?!) of weirdness, it is rooted in the CofE and I think that this keeps the clergy and active laity from going off the rails. Nicky is explicitly a Trinitarian--and I cannot say the same for other C of E charismatic churches in my area. But I digress…
Ok, you'll have to explain 'long periods of weirdness'. I don't observe any such thing.
quote:
Of course delicacy is required in discussing emotional responses because even when we have good evidence that some practices are induced or imitative types of behaviour (as opposed to spontaneous movements of the Spirit) the participants experience them as real. Once that bond, that connection is made in the mind the person (that God has spoken to them directly through this experience) little good will come from confronting them and telling them what they experienced was something else. I can't think of a single way to avoid these sorts of things. Note well that physical manifestations attributed to The Holy Spirit are not new, but their frequency is new. Epilepsy was often confused for spontaneous reactions to 'the movement of the Holy Spirit' in medieval and renaissance periods--just as an example.
So, to be clear - are you saying all/most of these things are not from the Holy Spirit? How do you know?
quote:
One area where I think a delicate vigilance can be exercised is taking more care in the mixing of (whatever denomination) Christian practices with folkloric or indigenous ones; what is called 'popular religion' in the old texts (I suppose we might now use 'superstition'). This can range from rural practices in the developing world (a missionary friend in sub-Saharan Africa has told me some really scary stories!) to the influence of the New Age movement or other, seemingly occult, practices.
Like what? I'm not into the occult, but I've not seen anything in my experience which could be remotely occultic in any of the HTB style services I've ever been to.
quote:
The emphasis on emotional response cannot be laid solely at the feet of charismatics--the is a long Catholic tradition here too, involved trances, visions, prophecies and even 'levitation'. Why not create your church service to avoid the deliberate fostering of emotional reactions without forbidding them?
K.
I think that this is exactly what did happen when I moved in those circles. Hence my repeated reminiscences as 'mountaintop' experiences.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm midway between the long ranger and Komensky on this one ... at one time I would have agreed that HTB and its look-a-likes were sufficiently distanced from the more extreme ends of the Pentecostal and charismatic spectrums (spectra?) to remain relatively harmless ... but things do fluctuate and there is cross-fertilisation. Bethel's Bill Johnson, notoriously, spoke at the New Wine conference a few years ago - although I'm informed that some of the leadership weren't entirely comfortable with that.
I would also have been inclined to agree with Andrew Walker the sociologist who grew up in an Elim manse and who has observed that there was as particular working class 'nous' about Elim that prevented it from running off into certain excesses that could be found within the Pentecostal and charismatic movements more generally.
I'm not so sure this still holds, though - I've seen Elim people involved in some pretty wierd stuff too but then, as CK says, each congregation is pretty autonomous so the mileage will vary.
The discomfort she records on the part of the Elim pastor she knows towards Kingdom Faith strikes me as not untypical and on the whole I would say that Elim were among the more 'balanced' of the three 'traditional' UK Pentecostal denominations - the other two being the Assemblies of God (who could be a bit hill-billy) and the Apostolic Church - who could be ... well ... strange.
That said, there were very sane and balanced people in all three Pentecostal denominations and some very eirenic folk too - particularly at a national leadership level.
I think it's very hard to generalise about the various axes - such as New Wine/HTB which seems to be the dominant one among middle-class charismatics at the moment. New Wine does attract Baptist and Vineyard people as well as Anglicans.
On the whole - massive generalisation - I would still say that there is sufficient ballast in the Anglican tradition to keep things reasonably 'on track' - all charismatic Anglicans I know are very explicitly Trinitarian, Komensky.
But there is still a need for vigilance.
I've raised this issue here before, but paradoxical as it may sound, a healthy dose of Trinitarianism is probably the thing that these groups most need. Charismatics, of all people, who really should know better, are very vague when it comes to the language they use about the Trinity.
I'm not saying they are nominally or insufficiently Trinitarian but it's just that they are so lax and laid-back in their terminology and liturgies that they can become flabby about these things.
My experience has been that they generally take the line of least resistance when it comes to the 'harder' aspects of catechesis and consequently can offer a dumbed-down mulch rather than solid food - but then, other traditions do the same in a different way.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I suppose my main worry is the tendency of some to become hooked to this kind of thing. So they very regularly attend meetings where this kind of thing happens and spend a lot of time talking about 'words of knowledge' and revivals and whatnot.
Morton Kelsey discusses this in his book Discernment. He says that if God offers you this experience you should not refuse it, but you should never seek it out.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There is plenty of material in the New Testament to point to the fact that anytime something real is going on, people will create the 'fake' version of it as well or act out of questionable motives.
Acts 8:18-19 and Acts 19:13-16 were the first examples that came to mind.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, Orfeo, but that's making the assumption that what we are seeing in charismatic circles today is the same or similar phenomena to what was happening back then. I'm not entirely sure we can make that hermeneutic jump.
No-one knows what charismatic phenomena looked like back then so we have no idea whether what we see in churches today is part and parcel of the same thing.
Some of it might be genuine. None of it might be genuine. How do we know? How can we tell?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Some of it might be genuine. None of it might be genuine. How do we know? How can we tell?
We can't tell for sure but there are some pointers to charismatic experience in the New Testament. For a start there's the reference (is it in Romans 8?) to the Holy Spirit praying through us with wordless groanings. Plenty of modern-day charismatic experience could be described in that way, IMO.
We can also look at the fruit of an experience. So if there seems to be associated with a certain experience an increase in joy, patience, gentleness and general Jesus-likeness, then perhaps the experience is a positive thing. This is always going to be a tentative judgement - it's by no means a simple matter to pin down the cause(s) of someone's growth in godliness - but we can try, I suppose...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, Orfeo, but that's making the assumption that what we are seeing in charismatic circles today is the same or similar phenomena to what was happening back then. I'm not entirely sure we can make that hermeneutic jump.
No-one knows what charismatic phenomena looked like back then so we have no idea whether what we see in churches today is part and parcel of the same thing.
Some of it might be genuine. None of it might be genuine. How do we know? How can we tell?
I wasn't intending to make that assumption particularly.
You can only do the kind of discernment that people have been talking about. I'm not suggesting it's simple. Daronmedway's report about the Toronto Blessing is about as good as I can see in terms of demonstrating that even those who recognise something questionable going on can still conclude that the core thing, the thing that was being counterfeited, is not itself counterfeit.
Look to the Doubting Thomases and sceptics in your midst. If they're on board, it increases the odds that there is something genuine going on. If you want to be more certain, don't listen to the people who are swept up in every passing fad, pay attention to the people who naturally sift and assess things.
EDIT: Also, what South Coast Kevin said about fruit.
[ 18. October 2012, 12:55: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not at all sure that plenty of contemporary charismatic experience can be interpreted in that way, South Coast Kevin. What the apostle Paul seems to be talking about with the 'groanings' thing sounds a lot deeper to me ...
I'm not entirely ruling out the possibility - see my comments in relation to Daronmedway's 'vision' or whatever it was.
Looking back on my own experiences though - yes, sure, I would still consider some of them to be 'genuine'. I'm not sure 'counterfeit' is the right term as it suggests malice aforethought - 'wishful thinking' might be the better term.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
All experiences are open to interpretation, in precisely the same way that the Bible is open to interpretation.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I'd put my experiences in the 'comfortable' category. They were nice.
Whether they were from God, I don't know. Entirely possible I wanted them to happen so much that I made them happen.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
We can't tell for sure but there are some pointers to charismatic experience in the New Testament. For a start there's the reference (is it in Romans 8?) to the Holy Spirit praying through us with wordless groanings. Plenty of modern-day charismatic experience could be described in that way, IMO.
I have been told that the Greek verb used in Romans 8.26 and translated 'groaning' or suchlike was used for the cries of a woman in childbirth and for the groans of the wounded on the battlefield. That kind of utterance has not been my experience in charismatic settings (and I go to a charismatic evangelical church).
(There was also the comment I recall that the only people in the NT who were "slain in the Spirit" were Ananias and Sapphira.)
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
So, to be clear - are you saying all/most of these things are not from the Holy Spirit? How do you know?
I never said any such thing. Try reading more carefully.
quote:
I'm not into the occult, but I've not seen anything in my experience which could be remotely occultic in any of the HTB style services I've ever been to.
Nor have I. Then again, if you had read what I have written with just the slightest bit of care that might have been clearer to you.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
(There was also the comment I recall that the only people in the NT who were "slain in the Spirit" were Ananias and Sapphira.)
Saul/Paul? (Acts 9:4)
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But I don't think you can write the whole conservative evangelical reserve thing off as a public-school/stiff-upper-lipped phenomenon. I grew up in South Wales and my first evangelical contacts were among the Brethren and they were pretty reserved about all this stuff - and none of them had public school backgrounds. Quite the opposite.
In general I think daron is actually right on this - at least about the particular circles he is referring to. Of course, there are many sources of conservatism, and some of what you see amongst the Brethern could be down to a certain set of middle class values.
Going back to the manifestations themselves - they are widely producible using a range of means, and that in itself make them problematic to me. You could argue for them being a form of means - but then the question about how to differentiate the real from the 'fake' still remains.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
(There was also the comment I recall that the only people in the NT who were "slain in the Spirit" were Ananias and Sapphira.)
Saul/Paul? (Acts 9:4)
There's also the 'falling down' phenomenon eg: Rev 2:17 and even the soldiers falling back/ down in John 18:6, which fits that bill.
My 'Toronto' experience largely mirrors that of Nicodemia and to an extent Daronmedway's.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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