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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How offensive is it to be called sexist?
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
My Hell call to GeeD is beginning to wax a bit Purgatorial on the issue of sexism and how offensive it is to be called sexist, so I've brought it here. This is before I disappear for some hours, so I won't be able to answer anything until this evening.
Getting this one out of the way first, I know calling someone sexist is offensive. But being offensive in Hell is not outwith the rules and the peanut gallery is liable to suggest that a Hell call that is not worded strongly is a "the worst Hell call ever" so challenges there tend to get inflated.
Coming from an educational background, saying to someone that something they've said is sexist would be the start of a conversation about what sexism is and why it is sexist. Marvin's reaction was quote:
Calling someone a sexist is several orders of magnitude worse than calling them ignorant
As others are expressing different viewpoints on how offensive it is (following that post) I wondered why the reaction
(and sorry, I really have to go, so can't stay and link the rest)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
...saying to someone that something they've said is sexist...
...is different to saying that the person is sexist. That's important.
But to me, it's like the difference between calling someone a fornicator and calling them a rapist. Both are insults, but the latter is far, far worse.
It's not, incidentally, about how insulting the attack is to the person on the receiving end. It's about the societal perception of the person should the insult "stick". Being sexist is a Really Bad Thing, being ignorant is not.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Yeah, to my mind 'sexism' implies bad faith whereas ignorance isn't necessarily your fault.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Yeah, to my mind 'sexism' implies bad faith whereas ignorance isn't necessarily your fault.
I'm not so sure. Maybe it is because ignorance sounds a lot like innocence, but ignorance can be deliberate and wilful, as I have stated elsewhere. Moreover, racism, sexism and the rest can be deliberate or unconscious (or should that be subconscious?).
What is for sure is that sexism, or to be more accurate, the application of it, is illegal in the UK. Racism and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation ditto, but applied ignorance is not against the law.
Maybe it is that legal position that determines how people feel: they don't mind criticism that implies they don't care, but they do object to any accusation that they behave illegally, even though the outcome of ignorance could actually be worse than that of sexism.
[ 19. October 2012, 12:06: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Hmmm. Supposing I take over as head of a new team. I announce that every week we'll have a team social/drink on Friday evening. For the first couple of weeks, everyone attends except Sam. Then someone takes me to one side and tells me that Sam is an observant Jew, and always leaves in order to be home before dark on a Friday.
If I am *innocently ignorant* I will be very embarrassed, ask whether there are any other changes I need to make so that our socialising is inclusive, and then make the necessary changes.
If I am *recklessly ignorant* I will announce that social night is now Thursday. I will not ask if there are any other changes needed for us to be inclusive. I could well be continuing to make someone else feel uncomfortable or excluded by routinely choosing the pub as our social activity.
If I am *wilfully ignorant* I will say "Huh. Everyone normal wants to go to the pub on a Friday. If Sam chooses not to socialise with the team for his own reasons, that's his lookout."
If I am *anti-semitic* I will have picked Friday night on purpose so that Sam is excluded.
Out of these options, being an acknowledged (to myself) anti-semite seems like the worst one to be. However, wilfully ignorant is pretty shitty too. You might argue that it's worse because the wilfully ignorant person doesn't even acknowledge to themselves the values that are driving their behaviour.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Being called sexist isn't all that offensive. The term gets thrown around so much it has become meaningless. The same goes for racist and bigot. Homophobia is well on its way.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
...ignorance can be deliberate and wilful, as I have stated elsewhere.
It can, but that is not implied by the simple use of "ignorant" as an insult.
I think Erroneous Monk sums this up very well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Hmmm. Supposing I take over as head of a new team. I announce that every week we'll have a team social/drink on Friday evening. For the first couple of weeks, everyone attends except Sam. Then someone takes me to one side and tells me that Sam is an observant Jew, and always leaves in order to be home before dark on a Friday.
If I am *innocently ignorant* I will be very embarrassed, ask whether there are any other changes I need to make so that our socialising is inclusive, and then make the necessary changes.
If I am *recklessly ignorant* I will announce that social night is now Thursday. I will not ask if there are any other changes needed for us to be inclusive. I could well be continuing to make someone else feel uncomfortable or excluded by routinely choosing the pub as our social activity.
If I am *wilfully ignorant* I will say "Huh. Everyone normal wants to go to the pub on a Friday. If Sam chooses not to socialise with the team for his own reasons, that's his lookout."
If I am *anti-semitic* I will have picked Friday night on purpose so that Sam is excluded.
Out of these options, being an acknowledged (to myself) anti-semite seems like the worst one to be.
Yes, it is. And if the truth is that you're just innocently ignorant, being accused of being an anti-semite is going to really fucking hurt. Being called ignorant is far and away the less offensive insult.
It's the same with being called sexist instead of ignorant.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Being called sexist isn't all that offensive. The term gets thrown around so much it has become meaningless.
Julia Gillard might disagree, and, for other reasons, so might Tony Abbott.
One might want to check what one has said before becoming dismissive about the accusation.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Being called sexist is very offensive. Not as much as if called racist though - which might be a sign that our society still is inherently very sexist so it doesn't feel as bad as racist does. And I'd be offended if callled either, especially when its not true.
I can't see why that should stop us using the word though. If people deserve it and you fancy a fight. Call a spade a spade. If someone is acting offensively, offend them back if you want. As long as its true.
(Though I don't think that gee is anywhere near the most blatantly sexist of the regular posters here. Probably not in the top ten. I know who I think is at the top but I've recently been managing to stop myself replying in anger to their posts. Though it took some effort yesterday)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
As long as its true.
Ay, there's the rub. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
This is interesting...whose sig line goes (went?) something like 'hell hath no fury like a vested interest masqerading as a moral principle'?
Less scrupulous members of groups who are widely regarded as having (or having had) legitimate victim status, may use this membership to attempt to strengthen their position by accusing an opponent of bigotry.
If the attempt is poorly executed and rather transparent, I guess it's more infuriating than offensive...perhaps even amusing. It also does least to damage the credibility of scrupulous members of the victimised group.
If the attempt is well-executed (but untrue), then it's probably very offensive and would extract vigorous rebuttal.
And if it turns out to be true - then it stings as it should, but should not be regarded as offensive, I guess.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
To my mind, being called sexist isn't a problem at all -- it is a ploy to try to win the day with name calling. I would say the same is true of being called racist, ageist, classist, etc. Being limited in any of these ways may be a problem, but the blatherings of fools should never be a burden to an honest person.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I often say sexist things and am glad to be called on it - as it's not my intention to be sexist.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Being sexist is a Really Bad Thing, being ignorant is might not be.
Fixed that. Willfully ignorant can be very bad, IMO.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Willfully ignorant can be very bad, IMO.
Go figure. To my mind, willful ignorance is the best kind...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
To my mind, being called sexist isn't a problem at all -- it is a ploy to try to win the day with name calling. I would say the same is true of being called racist, ageist, classist, etc. Being limited in any of these ways may be a problem, but the blatherings of fools should never be a burden to an honest person.
So anyone who calls you sexist is perforce a fool? Nice insulation. If BEING sexist is a problem, how will you know unless someone calls you on it?
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Willfully ignorant can be very bad, IMO.
Go figure. To my mind, willful ignorance is the best kind...
Why?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
OK, I started this by calling someone sexist. And I was referring to it as unconscious and unthinking.
Normally, other than in Hell, if I encountered a student being sexist (or racist, I've dealt with both) I would say something like "did you realise that you could be interpreted as being sexist there because ..." If it was someone senior to me talking in a leisure situation I probably wouldn't challenge them as unlikely to change anything. One of the levellers of the Ship is we lose any seniority and status we might have and have to live on our thoughts and words alone.
I see sexism as a form of ignorance as that's when I normally encounter it - a lack of awareness that what is being said might unthinkingly discriminate against people for whatever reason. When I meet sexism (and racism) in students for their own employability we have to point out that this is not allowed in the work place. It usually comes from home attitudes, whether innocently or wilfully racist or sexist.
Working with teenagers I've had these discussions with both girls and boys for saying things that discriminated against both genders. We've equally had to challenge groups mocking boys who want to train as nursery nurses or stay at home to look after children and groups telling girls that they can't become mechanics.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Willfully ignorant can be very bad, IMO.
Go figure. To my mind, willful ignorance is the best kind...
Why?
Because you have the pleasure of knowing what you don't know. If ignorance is bliss, willful ignorance is fully-realized bliss...
--Tom Clune
[ETA: I have never been called sexist by anyone wishing to inform me of anything. But that or similar are common from folks hoping to intimidate me so they can sleeze out an unmerited victory in an argument. Of course, YMMV, you MCP...]
[ 19. October 2012, 17:42: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
...ignorance can be deliberate and wilful, as I have stated elsewhere.
It can, but that is not implied by the simple use of "ignorant" as an insult.
I think Erroneous Monk sums this up very well.
I agree. Erroneous Monk has shown what a vast range "ignorant" can cover. One must then look beyond that word and decide on the nature and actual or potential harm of that ignorance.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And I was referring to it as unconscious and unthinking.
I have encountered this type of racism and sexism. A lot more of the fully conscious, but either way, not very excusable.
One would need be a virtual shut-in to not at least peripherally understand there are issues.
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Because you have the pleasure of knowing what you don't know. If ignorance is bliss, willful ignorance is fully-realized bliss...
--Tom Clune
A person truly following this statement has the makings of a fine politician. Provided one thinks the BNP or Republican party are fine.
[ 19. October 2012, 18:49: Message edited by: tclune ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Of course, YMMV, you MCP...]
Sigh. I thought you were being sincere in your discussion here. Shame on me.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Willfully ignorant can be very bad, IMO.
Go figure. To my mind, willful ignorance is the best kind...
--Tom Clune
i wouldn't know.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
To my mind, being called sexist isn't a problem at all -- it is a ploy to try to win the day with name calling. I would say the same is true of being called racist, ageist, classist, etc. Being limited in any of these ways may be a problem, but the blatherings of fools should never be a burden to an honest person.
I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences in debate, but I'm amazed to hear such ignorant rubbish from a shipmate I've always respected. These things are not just idle name calling or cheap ploys to win arguments -in fact, they often start further argument, as in Hell. My father was an honest person, but he was a racist. He didn't deliberately do anybody down, but he believed as a matter of scientific fact that certain races were intellectually superior. There are plenty of people about who are deliberately and unpleasantly racist or sexist or whatever - and some of these may be deliberately dishonest but there are many more others who unconsciously transmit racist or sexist assumptions they've never learnt to question.
By the way, working cultures that socialise on the basis of everybody going for a drink on Friday evening usually are sexist and racist. Or at least, they were. You could argue that they're not any more, because many more women are now able and willing to join in - but the other view is that they are still boys' clubs and the women who join them just become honorary boys.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
working cultures that socialise on the basis of everybody going for a drink on Friday evening usually are sexist and racist. Or at least, they were. You could argue that they're not any more, because many more women are now able and willing to join in - but the other view is that they are still boys' clubs and the women who join them just become honorary boys.
One could also object that it discriminates against those religions that oppose alcohol consumption. But ho hum-- is there anything we can possibly do that no one will find inconvenient, or objectionable, or insidiously self-serving if they try hard enough? The best solution may be to socialize under a variety of circumstances.
When I was in graduate school 1972/3, the whole school tended to adjourn to a beer & pizza place late Friday afternoon-- both faculty and students (among whom women predominated). I thought we had a great time, and it contributed to esprit-de-corps. Yes, food as well as drink was consumed, and it was a university rather than workplace community, but it was also quite awhile ago.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
'Wilful ignorance' is a very wobbly concept, akin to 'self deception'. Both imply simultaneously knowing and not knowing. If we were strictly rational, this would be impossible, but we're not strictly rational. And yet diving into the fragmented consciousness and interaction of emotion with reason that makes these paradoxes possible, can be pretty futile.
We only think that matters if we're hung up on blame and the attribution of responsibility. The point is to hammer away at sexism, racism, etc. Make them untenable in the world and the human mind will adapt to that, as it evolved to adapt and in the end, always will.
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How do you know when a politician is lying?
His lips are moving.
Danny DeVito
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
'Wilful ignorance' is a very wobbly concept, akin to 'self deception'. Both imply simultaneously knowing and not knowing. If we were strictly rational, this would be impossible, but we're not strictly rational.
I disagree. One can "willfully" not know something by deliberately avoiding information one doesn't want to know about. Children, for example, are notoriously "willfully ignorant" of their parent's sex lives-- if you start to share the information, they will plug their ears and chant loudly. They don't want to know.
A darker example might be Joe Paterno, who was most likely "willfully ignorant" of Sandusky's crimes. He passed along the incriminating info., then-- possibly deliberately-- did not follow up, because to have knowledge of the crimes would have caused all sorts of conflict for him. It was much easier not to know-- so he chose not to. Ignorant, but willfully so.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences in debate, but I'm amazed to hear such ignorant rubbish from a shipmate I've always respected. These things are not just idle name calling or cheap ploys to win arguments -in fact, they often start further argument, as in Hell.
Perhaps this is a pond thing; I have to say that I agree with tclune - people who simply call you sexist, racist, classist, etc. without telling you how to modify your speech or behavior to be more fair to others are, IME, frequently using cheap ploys to attempt to win arguments.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think it speaks ill of people when they try to brush aside criticism. Maybe it's a pond thing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Nah. It's more of a personality/Myers-Briggs/Enneagram thing...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I can see the Pond and know it's real.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Can you see sexism and know it's real? How about criticism?
[ 20. October 2012, 02:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Can you see sexism and know it's real? How about criticism?
You mistake my meaning. I cannot see Enneagram or Myers-Briggs categories and know they're real.
But yes, I have seen both sexism and criticism, and can attest to their reality.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Actually, I was being willfully ignorant.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Actually, I was being willfully ignorant.
Just to prove it can be done?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
No, more because it's mildly amusing to see steam come out of some people's ears at the mere mention of Myers. But I didn't have you particularly in mind.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Sexism, like racism, is so imbedded in the culture that anyone (of any gender) who claims to be free of it is only demonstrating their lack of insight. One can be resolutely anti-sexist, but that doesn't make you perfectly non-sexist--it only means you are opposed to sexism, even the sexism you have internalized. So no, it's not offensive in itself--it should trigger curiosity about what you might have done or said that expressed unconscious sexism.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
...saying to someone that something they've said is sexist...
...is different to saying that the person is sexist. That's important.
And I said that in my OP - that outside Hell or a real screaming argument, I wouldn't call someone sexist, I would say their actions are sexist. Unfortunately, the way Hell works here, unless the opening post is fairly aggressive, it gets dismissed.
quote:
Marvin the Martian: But to me, it's like the difference between calling someone a fornicator and calling them a rapist. Both are insults, but the latter is far, far worse.
It's not, incidentally, about how insulting the attack is to the person on the receiving end. It's about the societal perception of the person should the insult "stick". Being sexist is a Really Bad Thing, being ignorant is not.
Hang on comparing ignorance to sexism as is fornication to rape is ridiculous, well beyond conjugating one of those "special" verbs.
Sexism is, for most of us, just a form of ignorance and something we all do unconsciously to some degree or another. And conflating sexism to be as evil as rape closes ears to what is actually being said: that those particular words or actions are not giving both genders equal consideration.
I would agree that calling someone misogynist is worse than calling them sexist because that is saying someone hates women, which is several degrees worse than sexism which says something they're doing is disadvantaging the opposite gender.
[You misread/misunderstood what I said in Hell, by the way. I had been equating sexism and ignorance throughout that thread. I said something entirely different when I retracted the charge of sexism.]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences in debate, but I'm amazed to hear such ignorant rubbish from a shipmate I've always respected. These things are not just idle name calling or cheap ploys to win arguments -in fact, they often start further argument, as in Hell.
Perhaps this is a pond thing; I have to say that I agree with tclune - people who simply call you sexist, racist, classist, etc. without telling you how to modify your speech or behavior to be more fair to others are, IME, frequently using cheap ploys to attempt to win arguments.
But that's a straw man, the OP and the context of this discussion is calling someone sexist because ... [description of actions]. Which was providing information as to how to modify speech and behaviour. It wasn't just throwing out labels as ways of shutting down conversation.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Sexism, like racism, is so imbedded in the culture that anyone (of any gender) who claims to be free of it is only demonstrating their lack of insight. One can be resolutely anti-sexist, but that doesn't make you perfectly non-sexist--it only means you are opposed to sexism, even the sexism you have internalized. So no, it's not offensive in itself--it should trigger curiosity about what you might have done or said that expressed unconscious sexism.
Yes - that's what I said.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And conflating sexism to be as evil as rape closes ears to what is actually being said: that those particular words or actions are not giving both genders equal consideration.
Of all the things I've been criticised for over the years, being too hard on sexism is one of the least expected.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Marvin, I think the problem is that you see someone saying something is sexist as an accusation equivalent to an accusation of rape and then react accordingly.
My understanding of sexism is that it's endemic and a form of ignorance, either wilful ignorance or simple ignorance. I am not making a judgement about the form of ignorance when I say something is sexist. However, that judgement of wilful ignorance may follow on from any conversation.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I read bits of them; IIRC they went past my "where interesting becomes disappearing-up-its-own-fundament" threshold eventually. I'm a rather fair-weather consumer of threads.
FWIW my answer to the OP question would be,as it so often is, "It depends". Primarily on a number of contexts: those of the situation that gives rise to the accusation, and also the situations of the caller and callee. I'm not sure that for most people it's significantly worse than being called ignorant, in the general case. Whilst in pure terms being ignorant is nothing to be ashamed of (unless it's deliberate and wilful), most people hear "stupid and brutish" as opposed to "unaware of something in a value neutral fashion".
Of course, call me sexist in the cut and thrust of friendly badinage amongst chums, I don't care, it's all part of the game (and I may be deliberately or even intrinsically sexist in that context). Call me sexist as a serious accusation in a work context, and I'll not only get the right hump, I'll do my damnedest to prove you wrong, and it will stick in my mind for quite some time.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Instead of getting all defensive, which means shutting yourself off from any truth you don't want to hear ("I can't hear you, la la la la la la la"), why not, "I certainly did not mean to be; what was it I said that struck you as sexist?"
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
MT, was that in response to me?
If so, maybe I should have just left it at "It depends". And my response would generally depend on the context too. In RL if I was called sexist in a meaningful situation then I would almost certainly adopt an exploratory/understanding approach to find out why I'd come across that way, and if I had in fact been sexist. But under the surface I would, potentially, be hurt and somewhat put out.
There are exceptions: the aforementioned context of a wind-up argument amongst friends, and also if the accusation was levelled by someone who was so right-on they invent new -isms before getting out of bed each day. The kind of accusation where "Oh do fuck off" is about the only available sane response, but which often has to be a head thought, and a more socially engaging response delivered verbally.
[Note to self: stop making the fatal mistake of quick responses in serious threads when distracted by other things]
ETA My original "I'd get the hump" comment is because I wouldn't BE sexist in a work situation; certainly not to a degree where I'd be likely to get called on it. Therefore I was working from an assumption that personally I would be offended because it would be false. If I was called on something and it brought me up short with a mental "Oops, that was a bit off actually" then I wouldn't get the hump, I'd be more appropriate.
Which all comes back to "It depends".
[ 20. October 2012, 17:52: Message edited by: Snags ]
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
My original "I'd get the hump" comment is because I wouldn't BE sexist in a work situation; certainly not to a degree where I'd be likely to get called on it.
But my point is that you might say something sexist and not realize it's a sexist thing to say, even if you would never BE sexist intentionally.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
But that's a straw man, the OP and the context of this discussion is calling someone sexist because ... [description of actions]. Which was providing information as to how to modify speech and behaviour. It wasn't just throwing out labels as ways of shutting down conversation.
But if the discussion is about how offensive it is to call someone a sexist, it's relevant that there are at least some people in the world who do not view it as being particularly offensive because the term gets tossed around too often and too casually.
Sexist, racist, classist, homophobic, bigot. At least in some areas of the US these are the secular liberal version of original sin (but without the hope of redemption): you are these things simply because you exist and therefore are horrible in some way. Clearly there are differences in the ways we're using language, but calling someone sexist isn't necessarily an effective way to point out the flaws in their reasoning or behavior. To my ears it mostly sounds quaint (are we back in the 70s?) and/or likely that someone is parodying something rather than making a serious argument. Obviously YMMV (and probably does).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
But that's a straw man, the OP and the context of this discussion is calling someone sexist because ... [description of actions]. Which was providing information as to how to modify speech and behaviour. It wasn't just throwing out labels as ways of shutting down conversation.
But if the discussion is about how offensive it is to call someone a sexist, it's relevant that there are at least some people in the world who do not view it as being particularly offensive because the term gets tossed around too often and too casually.
Sexist, racist, classist, homophobic, bigot. At least in some areas of the US these are the secular liberal version of original sin (but without the hope of redemption): you are these things simply because you exist and therefore are horrible in some way. Clearly there are differences in the ways we're using language, but calling someone sexist isn't necessarily an effective way to point out the flaws in their reasoning or behavior. To my ears it mostly sounds quaint (are we back in the 70s?) and/or likely that someone is parodying something rather than making a serious argument. Obviously YMMV (and probably does).
YMMV, indeed. Your comment struck this not-so-secular liberal as the sort of right-wing "anti-PC" rant that "gets tossed around too often and too casually." iow, precisely the way apparently that "sexist" strikes you.
You say potato, I say potato.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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