Ship of Fools: Prayer: Just what exactly is it?

Thread: Prayer: Just what exactly is it? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Can anybody explain what prayer is? What it is not? Where and how it happens. Is it possible to do it wrong? Can prayer hurt the one praying? Is there some best way to pray?

What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how?

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Can anybody explain what prayer is? What it is not? Where and how it happens. Is it possible to do it wrong? Can prayer hurt the one praying? Is there some best way to pray?

What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how?

Regarding intercessary prayer, we must never forget that it is a request - it may be granted us, or it may not - we cannot tell God what to do. "Whatsoever you ask, I will do it" was a promise to the Apostles - it was not uttered to the crowds, nor to us. Please feel free to correct me if I have got this wrong.

In private prayer, I think it is better to just tell God what's on your mind. I don't think God is impressed when we try to tell Him what we think He wants to hear.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
"Whatsoever you ask, I will do it" was a promise to the Apostles - it was not uttered to the crowds, nor to us. Please feel free to correct me if I have got this wrong.

If one takes a literal view of Apostolic succession, does this mean that Bishops do get whatever they pray for?

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
"Whatsoever you ask, I will do it" was a promise to the Apostles - it was not uttered to the crowds, nor to us. Please feel free to correct me if I have got this wrong.

If one takes a literal view of Apostolic succession, does this mean that Bishops do get whatever they pray for?

I think it was for their mission as founders of the Church, so re. Bishops I suppose not - but someone more qualified than I should take this up.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how?

Why do you want to pray?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

A conversation with God? An attempt to align your will with God's will? An attempt to hold your problems and those of others out to God?

If I'm praying for people I try to visualise "holding them in the living light" (of God) (which is what Welease Woderick says on the prayer thread) - candle flames are almost the same shape as hands in prayer.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how?
Why do you want to pray?

HughWillRidmee it's not the OP that is asking, it's someone they know - so should The Silent Acolyte ask his (or her) friend why they want to pray? I don't think that would be a very polite or christian response.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how?
Why do you want to pray?
HughWillRidmee it's not the OP that is asking, it's someone they know - so should The Silent Acolyte ask his (or her) friend why they want to pray? I don't think that would be a very polite or christian response.

What I would say to someone who desperately wants to pray but doesn’t know how is “why do you want to pray?”. Helping people is not about being polite or “christian” (whatever you mean by christian – since I ain’t it doesn’t bother me). If people genuinely want help you go back to the basics and facilitate them solving the problem for themselves – that means asking questions which enable them to work out their own solution. Being polite and/or “christian” is a potentially deal-breaking limitation.

It does, of course, run the risk that they might decide that talking to themselves is not a valid substitute for appropriate action - but if you want to help you can't control the outcome, otherwise you are simply trying to impose your preferred solution on an already troubled mind.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

I don't pray very well but sometimes I write letters to God. I still don't understand anything about what prayer is but I express myself better in writing than in speech so I guess it makes sense.

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
"Whatsoever you ask, I will do it" was a promise to the Apostles - it was not uttered to the crowds, nor to us. Please feel free to correct me if I have got this wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If one takes a literal view of Apostolic succession, does this mean that Bishops do get whatever they pray for?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it was for their mission as founders of the Church, so re. Bishops I suppose not - but someone more qualified than I should take this up.

I think it was for their mission as founders of the Church, so re. Bishops I suppose not - but someone more qualified than I should take this up.

I hesitate to “take this up”, lest you come to the erroneous conclusion that I’m in any way qualified – and yet I would like to offer some thoughts, on the understanding that they are merely opinions.

I see that sensational statement “Whatever you ask, I will do it”, as having wider application than the apostles. The version in Mark 11 is prefaced by “if anyone says to this mountain….”. True, Jesus is then addressing the disciples, but I can’t rule out the possibility that “anyone” was more inclusive.

Perhaps of more note, is John 14:12-14 ”Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” Again, he begins with the general (whoever, in this case) before returning to the second person plural. Perhaps not irrefutable, but I suspect his use of “anyone” and “whoever” may not have been intended to apply only to those disciples.

I personally feel that the Johannine reference qualifies those found in Matthew and Mark – that is to say, that it must be asked in Christ’s name. I do not see that as something tagged on to the end of a prayer – a sort of ‘Abracadabra’ or ‘Open Sesame’ affair. Rather, I see it effectively as power of attorney - access to the resources of God, to be used only for his purposes….to ask only for what Jesus himself would ask for, if he were in our position. That, of course, presupposes we are in a place to do that. I would equate that place with having the mind of Christ, as someone once put it.

Anyhow, just the way I see it....for what it's worth.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
What I would say to someone who desperately wants to pray but doesn’t know how is “why do you want to pray?”. Helping people is not about being polite or “christian” (whatever you mean by christian – since I ain’t it doesn’t bother me). If people genuinely want help you go back to the basics and facilitate them solving the problem for themselves – that means asking questions which enable them to work out their own solution. Being polite and/or “christian” is a potentially deal-breaking limitation.

It does, of course, run the risk that they might decide that talking to themselves is not a valid substitute for appropriate action - but if you want to help you can't control the outcome, otherwise you are simply trying to impose your preferred solution on an already troubled mind.

With the greatest of respect HughWillRidmee why would anyone ask you how to pray?

It's not the sort of question you would ask someone you didn't know, and if the person did know you, they would already know you were an atheist - so wouldn't they find someone else they could relate to better?

I sometimes wonder whether I get prayer right, but the last person I would ask about it is an atheist!

[ 21. October 2012, 08:45: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Can anybody explain what prayer is? What it is not? Where and how it happens. Is it possible to do it wrong? Can prayer hurt the one praying? Is there some best way to pray?

What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how?

I see it as communion, a being-together, a conversation with the divine. It doesn't have to be in articulated words or according to a set prayer, though some people find that easier. It can just be a "being with", an inarticulate, unformulated sort of "here I am" and maybe also "and I'm in this particular state of mind, help!", or even just a "thank you!!"

It's a highly individual thing. Desperately wanting to and not knowing how to go about it is a form of it in itself - the person is still concentrating on God, wanting to make the effort and at some level is broadcasting that message. Sometimes the person may not even know whether they believe or not - just putting it out there - which is one of the greatest acts of faith.

It may be that your friend may find some of the established prayers suitable and helpful for their situation and can use them. But just making the effort to spend time with God, whether you can formulate what you want to say or not, should also count as a form of prayer IMO - it has a broader definition than is sometimes realized.

What prayer isn't is a wish for someone to experience harm or be disadvantaged (especially for your benefit). Or when someone tries to put it in a way they think God wants to hear. You get nowhere in the spiritual life if you aren't sincere, and it will be seen through anyway.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

I've always regarded "praying" as chatting to God. It doesn't have to be requests or thanksgivings always. And we can speak in all sorts of ways when we've got various languages from the Holy Spirit, and sometimes we may pray and not understand and someone else in the church gets the "translation", and says it so we all understand.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

What prayer isn't is a wish for someone to experience harm or be disadvantaged (especially for your benefit).

Unless anyone's into voo-doo that is [Razz]

I don't claim to be very articulate at prayer . A daily short prayer of thanks for God's Grace is a good place to start .
Other things may develop from that . If however they do not, we shouldn't therefore feel inadequate because of it.
Acknowledging God in the form of thanksgiving simply for our very *being* is a fundamental of faith.

[ 21. October 2012, 17:17: Message edited by: rolyn ]

Posted by Brother Oscar (# 17227) on :

quote:
Can anybody explain what prayer is?

The definition I always go to is that of Theophan the Recluse:

quote:
To pray is to descend with the mind into the heart, and there , and there to stand before the face of the Lord, ever present, all seeing, within you."

I'd also suggest that prayer is communion with God and a conversation, though I would emphasise listening. My experience of prayer is very much contemplative, seeking God in word, music, nature and silence. Contemplation is about being aware of the creative and loving presence of God and turning your desire and will towards God.

Having been influenced by a Buddhist appreciation of Christianity I would also describe prayer as mindfulness of God. ('Living Buddha, Living Christ' by Thich Nhat Hanh and 'Zen and The Birds of Appetite' by Thomas Merton helped me to go deeper in prayer and faith at a decisive point in my life.)

quote:
What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how?

Despite the spirituality for extroverts thread, I'm aware that what I have to contribute may be more suited to fellow introverts. None-the-less, the first thing I'd say is to simply find a quiet and comfortable place and there relaxing their body and focusing on their breathing*, turn their attention to God. And in that moment present to God, their very desperation to pray and their not knowing how. God is already in their desperation to pray and the first step is simply to present themselves before God and ask God to guide them.

Just as Julian of Norwich recorded in her Showings:

quote:
I am the ground of your praying. First, it is my will that you should have this; then I make it your will, too: then I make you ask for it, and you do so. How then should you not have what you pray for?

In my experience it never gets any more advanced than that. In prayer as in a relationship there are no methods or techniques that are anything more than a way to come together enable the relationship to unfold. And as in relationships there are no shortcuts - one may pray, searching and aching, for some time before one becomes aware of God. Whilst waiting on God they can present their longing, their needs, their feelings, their hope.

That said, I would recommend getting to know some particular way into prayer, some tradition of prayer. That could be Lectio Divina and the Divine Office of the Benedictine tradition; or imaginative reading and the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises; or an evangelical quiet hour; or the silence, testimonies and journals of the Quaker tradition. These ways into prayer help to give prayer a form and a focus, and help to nurture a discipline and growth in prayer.

I think the scripture properly shapes and focuses Christian prayer. Prayerful reading of the words of scripture help us to listen for God's Word for us in each day. And so I find Lectio Divina helpful and try and practice it each day. But I won't say anymore about that because there are lots of guides online...

Posted by Brother Oscar (# 17227) on :

Apologies for the double post but this by royln:

quote:
I don't claim to be very articulate at prayer. A daily short prayer of thanks for God's Grace is a good place to start.

Reminds me of this quotation from Eckhart and I couldn't resist posting it:

quote:
If the only prayer you ever say in your entire life is thank you, it will be enough.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

I sometimes wonder whether I get prayer right, but the last person I would ask about it is an atheist!

I'm an atheist and, if the answers given here are anything to go by, I'd say some of us do pray. We just don't call it that and our imagery is a bit different.

But I agree we don't have the tradition or technology - one of the advantages of belief.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Prayer is inviting God into our consciousness, and it is accepting God's invitation into His consciousness. When the two coincide, prayer is deep connection with God.

Prayer may or may not include words. It may include expressions of love, thanks and praise, and it may spill out concerns and regrets. It may consist of the silence and peace of togetherness with the One who loves us most of all.

It can be harmful imho if we wish harm on others through it or if we convince ourselves that we're in authority over God; in these ways we may harm ourselves.

Posted by Squibs (# 14408) on :

I'm terrible at praying. In part this is because I don't understand it. But it's also because I'm lazy and often can't be arsed to stick with the discipline that is required.

Still, I've found that my most encouraging and rewarding times of prayer are those that follow a structure in a controlled environment. In other words, I find a quiet corner, tune out the chatter in my head (which is very difficult) and then begin to pray. I begin by acknowledging the good, asking for strength against the bad, recognition of sin, concentrate on the meaning of the cross and so on. Unfortunately I rarely achieve this and more often that not my prayers take the form of a rushed series of thoughts aimed at God moments before I drift away into sleep. Indeed, it's not unusual for my prayers to trail off into ideas about what I have to do in work the next day, what items should be added to the grocery list, thinking over the plot for that film I just watched, possibly the odd sexual fantasy and whatever other crap happens to be knocking around up there.

Given that prayer is difficult for many people, surely a healthy prayer life must then be built on discipline and structure. Perhaps this is analogous to exercise of the body - where the muscles are worked in regular fashion until they become stronger. Prayer is spiritual sit-ups, if you will.

The BBC ran a fascinating documentary about 2 years back called The Big Silence. A number of very busy people agreed to attend Worth Abbey and to take some time away from their hectic routines (professional life, family life, social commitments and so on) and to work science and contemplation into their life both during their brief stay in the Abbey and outside in their day to day lives. It's well worth a watch.

The blurb runs as follows -

quote:
Five volunteers go on a journey into silence, led by Father Christopher Jamison. His starting point is simple: “Many of the world’s religions believe there is one simple path that leads us towards God. It’s called silence.” As a Benedictine monk he is steeped in the Catholic mystical tradition of the contemplative life, but he is convinced that everyone can benefit from sustained, regular periods of silence. “When we enter into periods of silence, we start to see things with greater clarity. We come to know ourselves, and come in touch with that deepest part of ourselves. That is our soul”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_zDtdYu3mA

(It was actually a 3 part series but the link above splits it into 12 parts because of Youtube's data limitations.)

Also, I know some people have gained great benefit from spiritual exercises like those from Ignatious of Loyola - http://www.ccel.org/ccel/ignatius/exercises.html

I must admit that I personally found the above quite challenging and it wasn't long before I went back to watching TV. But that says more about me then it does the exercise.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

Prayer is asking God for things. If it isn't a request, it isn't a prayer. There are other forms of verbal communication with God which aren't prayer (e.g. thanksgiving, confession, praise) but, strictly speaking, prayer is asking God for something. My advice to someone who wants to pray but doesn't know how would be: ask God for want you want, in plain language.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

daronmedway - where do the words for Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane fit into this? I'm thinking of: "Yet not as I will, but as you will/Yet not my will, but yours be done."

In our prayer, shouldn't we be echoing Jesus and asking that we follow God's will?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
The BBC ran a fascinating documentary about 2 years back called The Big Silence. A number of very busy people agreed to attend Worth Abbey and to take some time away from their hectic routines (professional life, family life, social commitments and so on) and to work science and contemplation into their life both during their brief stay in the Abbey and outside in their day to day lives. It's well worth a watch.

Yes. The DVD is available, and there's a short book, "Growing Into Silence", which suggests various ways that people can try to get themselves into the habit of spending time with God. The site is here and there's a link on that page called "What is Prayer" which may be useful to you.

I can only say that for me personally, "The Big Silence" coincided with a very dry, dreary time in my life when I was just coasting through life on a day by day basis without much hope. It was like being given water in a desert. It won't be the same for everybody but hopefully some of it may be helpful to you.

Posted by Cadfael (# 11066) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Prayer is asking God for things. If it isn't a request, it isn't a prayer. There are other forms of verbal communication with God which aren't prayer (e.g. thanksgiving, confession, praise) but, strictly speaking, prayer is asking God for something. My advice to someone who wants to pray but doesn't know how would be: ask God for want you want, in plain language.

Interesting. When I was a wee boy about to be confirmed in the CofE, I was given a little book to study called ACTS of prayer. The premise of the book was that prayer involved Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving and Supplication. I can see all four of these elements in the Lord's prayer. But maybe I am confused about the first three, which means that when Jesus taught us how to pray he was offering us not just the Lord's prayer, but also the Lord's other forms of verbal communication?

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
daronmedway - where do the words for Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane fit into this? I'm thinking of: "Yet not as I will, but as you will/Yet not my will, but yours be done."

In our prayer, shouldn't we be echoing Jesus and asking that we follow God's will?

Jesus is asking for something. He is asking God the Father to do what he wants. It's a request; a very painful, magnificently valiant request. It the quintessential "thy will be done".

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cadfael:

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Prayer is asking God for things. If it isn't a request, it isn't a prayer. There are other forms of verbal communication with God which aren't prayer (e.g. thanksgiving, confession, praise) but, strictly speaking, prayer is asking God for something. My advice to someone who wants to pray but doesn't know how would be: ask God for want you want, in plain language.
Interesting. When I was a wee boy about to be confirmed in the CofE, I was given a little book to study called ACTS of prayer. The premise of the book was that prayer involved Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving and Supplication. I can see all four of these elements in the Lord's prayer. But maybe I am confused about the first three, which means that when Jesus taught us how to pray he was offering us not just the Lord's prayer, but also the Lord's other forms of verbal communication?

Adoration isn't prayer; it's worship. Confession is prayer: it involves asking for forgiveness. Thanksgiving isn't prayer; it's thanksgiving. Supplication is prayer proper: it is asking for something. Check out the Greek for prayer if you don't believe me!

Posted by Cadfael (# 11066) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Adoration isn't prayer; it's worship. Confession is prayer: it involves asking for forgiveness. Thanksgiving isn't prayer; it's thanksgiving. Supplication is prayer proper: it is asking for something. Check out the Greek for prayer if you don't believe me!

I''m sorry, I don't know Greek. How does Matthew 6:9 authentically translate? The translation I have in front of me reads like this: "Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name... " Is that confession or supplication, or has the word 'pray' been mis-translated?

[ 21. October 2012, 22:17: Message edited by: Cadfael ]

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cadfael:

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Adoration isn't prayer; it's worship. Confession is prayer: it involves asking for forgiveness. Thanksgiving isn't prayer; it's thanksgiving. Supplication is prayer proper: it is asking for something. Check out the Greek for prayer if you don't believe me!
I''m sorry, I don't know Greek. How does Matthew 6:9 authentically translate? The translation I have in front of me reads like this: "Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name... " Is that confession or supplication, or has the word 'pray' been mis-translated?

It's a request for God to hallow his name.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
What I would say to someone who desperately wants to pray but doesn’t know how is “why do you want to pray?”. Helping people is not about being polite or “christian” (whatever you mean by christian – since I ain’t it doesn’t bother me). If people genuinely want help you go back to the basics and facilitate them solving the problem for themselves – that means asking questions which enable them to work out their own solution. Being polite and/or “christian” is a potentially deal-breaking limitation.

It does, of course, run the risk that they might decide that talking to themselves is not a valid substitute for appropriate action - but if you want to help you can't control the outcome, otherwise you are simply trying to impose your preferred solution on an already troubled mind.
With the greatest of respect HughWillRidmee why would anyone ask you how to pray?

It's not the sort of question you would ask someone you didn't know, and if the person did know you, they would already know you were an atheist - so wouldn't they find someone else they could relate to better?

I sometimes wonder whether I get prayer right, but the last person I would ask about it is an atheist!

That seems to me to be a rather sad, and possibly somewhat arrogant response – perhaps it’s just as well that this isn’t actually about you then isn’t it?

You have entirely missed my point.
There are two main ways to respond when someone asks for help with such a problem. The first is to assume some (generally spurious?) authority and try to impose a preferred answer, the second is to try to help the concerned person understand the nature of their concern and work through the situation to a conclusion which is right for them. One is known as bullying, the other as being supportive.

If you want a pre-packaged, dogmatic, one-size-fits-all solution there are no doubt plenty – it took very little effort to uncover this for example.

The problem with imposing a solution is that the outcome may be damaging. An imposed solution which fails to answer real concerns may lead to increased cognitive dissonance.

A solution which is worked out by the concerned individual is much more likely to stick – it just might not be the one you want to impose. Who knows, a half-hour chat with a supportive atheist might help you – after all the atheist probably has no preconceived idea as to how you should pray.

Actually I find the notion of knowing how to pray rather odd. Is it assumed that your god can only be bothered to listen to correctly prepared thoughts? Is there an implied belief that your prayers will be answered positively more often if they are formatted in the correct manner. Does your god ignore prayers uttered in the vocal equivalent of Comic Sans MS?

If there is a god I really can’t see that it will be the slightest bit concerned with how you pray.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

@daronmedway, you're saying that prayer is one specific thing, and all the examples everyone else on this thread have given are wrong?

I don't agree that this is at all. I have sat in too many meetings with a circle of prayer when the requests to God include telling everyone in the community to see the issue the person who's praying's way. I have been too restrained to add "Not our will but Yours, O Lord" as a counterpoint, but I should have. I do really see prayer as listening to God and aligning my will to His, so spending as much time listening as asking.

In the context of this thread, I was offering some suggestions as ways in for someone who wanted to understand prayer, not instruct them in the "one and only way" according to me, particularly as I think people find different things more useful at different times.

[ 22. October 2012, 07:21: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
With the greatest of respect HughWillRidmee why would anyone ask you how to pray?[/QUJOTE]
How would you decide who does or does not know 'how' to pray, I wonder?
[QUOTE]I sometimes wonder whether I get prayer right, but the last person I would ask about it is an atheist!

Well, yes, I suppose so - you pretty well know you are going to get a response on the lines of 'why?' [Smile]

However, if you asked someone who had, as a believer, said prayers for many years, then, even if that person is now an atheist, they would be able to say something about how they used to pray.
*pause to try to remember*
I think I preferred formalised prayers such as the prayer of St Ignatius and those of the Evening Service, whose words were sensible and harmonius-sounding.

The first definition of 'pray' on google is: "Address a solemn request of thanks to a deity or other object of worship."
I must say, the word 'object' made me smile a little!!

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Prayer is asking God for things. If it isn't a request, it isn't a prayer. There are other forms of verbal communication with God which aren't prayer (e.g. thanksgiving, confession, praise) but, strictly speaking, prayer is asking God for something. My advice to someone who wants to pray but doesn't know how would be: ask God for want you want, in plain language.

Someone told me this years ago. I was then left a bit bemused considering the notion of God as a divine Santa Claus to whom I should present a sort of shopping list with "please give me X, Y and Z". It actually put me off the idea of prayer for a while.

I don't think it's a particularly helpful approach either for people who may be in the state of mind where they want to pray but haven't a clue to go about it - and may not be able to define or articulate what they want to say.

Prayer is an experience where yes, you might request something, but it is also about listening, conversing, growing, experiencing. For me, to deny that diminishes the concept of God and the relationship you have with him.

In fact daily life can be prayer if lived in a prayerful spirit, if you make an offering of it as you go, if you are prepared to do whatever it is you do for God's sake, or for the love of Christ. I cannot agree that prayer should be defined so strictly as just reciting a list of requests (however heartfelt), even if that is the literal translation.

Posted by Brother Oscar (# 17227) on :

Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Adoration isn't prayer; it's worship. Confession is prayer: it involves asking for forgiveness. Thanksgiving isn't prayer; it's thanksgiving. Supplication is prayer proper: it is asking for something. Check out the Greek for prayer if you don't believe me!

It is of course helpful to refer to Greek when citing it. The word used in Matthew 6.9 for prayer is indeed proseuche, "petition addressed to a diety". Similarly a quick dictionary search does suggest the root of our English word for prayer is in Old French and Latin for petitioning for something.

However, as much as I think we should let Greek elucidate our reading of the text it is anachronistic to say that proseuche should determine the use of our English word prayer, which despite it's roots, just is broader than petitionary prayer.

If we were talking about Matthew 6.9, it would be insightful to talk about it as the disciples asking Jesus, 'What should we petition God for?' Surely, Jesus is saying something about how the wills and desires of the disciples should be directed towards God.

It is unhelpful, I think, when we are talking about beginning in Christian prayer to limit the conversation to petitionary prayer, because there are other practices and experiences in the New Testament that are fairly basic to Christian prayer, which would then be neglected. Not only confession, thanksgiving and adoration but also the fundamental practice of being before God. Jesus going to a quiet place to be alone with the Father. Johannine language about hearing and believing, and remaining in Jesus' love. Paul's language of living in the Spirit, and the Spirit bearing witness to our adoption. James' language about hearing, doing and giving birth to the word. All these have echos in the tradition of Christian prayer.

[ 22. October 2012, 08:07: Message edited by: Brother Oscar ]

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

HughWillRidmee

quote:
Actually I find the notion of knowing how to pray rather odd. Is it assumed that your god can only be bothered to listen to correctly prepared thoughts? Is there an implied belief that your prayers will be answered positively more often if they are formatted in the correct manner. Does your god ignore prayers uttered in the vocal equivalent of Comic Sans MS?

If there is a god I really can’t see that it will be the slightest bit concerned with how you pray.

Agreed - as usual! I think it would be excellent ifall those who thought that an answer to their prayers had come from God/god/s would give the credit for such responses to the infinite capacity of their brains to work it out.

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

quote from SusanDoris

However, if you asked someone who had, as a believer, said prayers for many years, then, even if that person is now an atheist, they would be able to say something about how they used to pray.
*pause to try to remember*

True, no doubt....but one wouldn't expect an ex-believer to have much to say about an effective prayer strategy.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@daronmedway, you're saying that prayer is one specific thing, and all the examples everyone else on this thread have given are wrong?

Not "wrong" in a condemnatory way, no. Just inaccurate, but not in a particularly harmful way. I certainly think it is possible to hold a broader view of what prayer is without being in "error". I just maintain that, strictly speaking, prayer is asking for things. After all, I'm just trying to answer to OP. In the case of listening, the prayer element would be the spoken or unspoken desire for God to speak. The hearing part would simply be that: hearing.

quote:
I don't agree that this is at all. I have sat in too many meetings with a circle of prayer when the requests to God include telling everyone in the community to see the issue the person who's praying's way. I have been too restrained to add "Not our will but Yours, O Lord" as a counterpoint, but I should have. I do really see prayer as listening to God and aligning my will to His, so spending as much time listening as asking.

That's fine. But as I said upthread, asking for God's will to be done is a request. It is asking for something.

quote:
In the context of this thread, I was offering some suggestions as ways in for someone who wanted to understand prayer, not instruct them in the "one and only way" according to me, particularly as I think people find different things more useful at different times.

I don't have an issue with anything you say per se. I'm just coming at it from a theological angle, rather than a more pastoral angle. All of the ways of communicating with God that have been mentioned: contemplation, thanksgiving, listening and so on are all good. But they're not prayer in the strictest sense of the word, that's all.

[ 22. October 2012, 08:41: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

Posted by David Powell (# 5545) on :

It occurred to me recently that perhaps when you are praying, you are least likely to be sinning, which must be a good thing. Archbishop Rowan Williams, God bless him, apparently said that prayer can be like sunbathing. I like that image.

Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :

Originally posted by Brother Oscar:

quote:
Just as Julian of Norwich recorded in her Showings:

quote:I am the ground of your praying. First, it is my will that you should have this; then I make it your will, too: then I make you ask for it, and you do so. How then should you not have what you pray for?

Thank you for that. That seems to explain the remarkable granting of the first prayer I ever prayed for an enemy (which got the enemy out of a frightening, embarrassing situation, turned us into friends and made me a Christian, without any further doubt).

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I don't have an issue with petitionary prayer nor with the idea of an interventionist God - an concept that many liberal Christians appear to struggle with as it could make God out to be arbitrary and rather capricious.

Nevertheless, I find Daronmedway's viewpoint to be, I dunno - rather one-dimensional - even after he's added all the caveats.

One of the best books on prayer I've read and one which turned my whole concept of it inside out and upside down was 'The School of Prayer' by the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom. Somehow, it seemed fuller, richer and avoided the kind of slot-machine petitionary mentality that seems to bedevil some approaches to prayer that we might be more familiar with.

I'm not saying the petitionary aspect is wrong - and a liturgical litany retains aspects of the petitionary too, although perhaps not in as direct a way as is the case in more evangelical circles.

I think it's difficult, if not impossible, to read the New Testament and not conclude that petitionary prayer is legitimate - the Lord's Prayer is pretty petitionary after all! 'Give us this day ...'

But for some reason I still find myself repelled to a certain extent by the way that Daronmedway frames all this. It sounds very, very utilitarian to me. I'm sure he doesn't intend it that way and that he is indeed giving full cognizance and recognition to all the other aspects that people have mentioned ...

And yet ... and yet ...

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

And yet Jesus actively encourages such simplistic utilitarianism!

quote:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

He makes it sound so much better than me though, the silver tongued so-and-so...

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Gamaliel: I don't have an issue with petitionary prayer nor with the idea of an interventionist God - an concept that many liberal Christians appear to struggle with as it could make God out to be arbitrary and rather capricious.

I'm probably as liberal/progressive as they come, but I don't think I have a problem with petitionary prayer (sorry, couldn't resist the link [Biased]

) per se. Heck, I do it from time to time.

But I disagree with the people on this thread that said that prayer is strictly asking for things. That would be far too limited to me. I rather like the definition by Theophan the Recluse that Brother Oscar quoted, but I guess petitionary prayer can be a part of that.

I'm not sure if petitionary prayer would necessarily make God look arbitrary or capricious, a bigger problem I would have with some forms of it is that it would seem like we can control God: if we pray this-and-this and we fulfill this-and-these conditions then God will do this-and-that. That definitely would be too utilitarian to me.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Well, I think you've answered your own objection there, Daronmedway. Jesus doesn't make it sound at all utilitarian - but you do ... [Razz]

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Well, yes, I suppose so - you pretty well know you are going to get a response on the lines of 'why?' However, if you asked someone who had, as a believer, said prayers for many years, then, even if that person is now an atheist, they would be able to say something about how they used to pray.
*pause to try to remember*

I still think SusanDoris and HughWillRidmee are trying to flog a dead horse here. If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?

It doesn't matter if it is a life-long athiest or someone who lost their faith later in life (and instead put their complete faith in scientism) - such people will try to drag the asker in the complete opposite direction to what is intended.

I know christians are often accused of this very thing, but so are people of other faiths or no faith - including humanists and atheists.

So SusanDoris and HughWillRidmee, the question still stands - why do you suppose anyone would ask you to help them improve their prayer life?

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, I think you've answered your own objection there, Daronmedway. Jesus doesn't make it sound at all utilitarian - but you do ...

Um, my point exactly. Interesting how many times Jesus uses the word "ask" or a rhetorical synomym (i.e. seek, knock) in those few verses though isn't it? You'd think he was trying to make a point wouldn't you?

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?

An assumption that I doubt is always accurate. Perhaps they're in trouble and they want to try and strike a bargain with God. Perhaps they want to know how to say grace at Christmas dinner.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I still think SusanDoris and HughWillRidmee are trying to flog a dead horse here. If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?

Yes, I suppose so, but it could also be to help them focus on a particular difficulty; and you never know, they might want to hear that prayer is not such a good idea!

quote:
It doesn't matter if it is a life-long athiest or someone who lost their faith later in life (and instead put their complete
faith in scientism) -

At least science is backed up by evidence, so unevidenced faith is not needed, and where there isn't evidence yet, the answer is 'we don't know yet'.

quote:
such people will try to drag the asker in the complete opposite direction to what is intended.

There may be those who would try to 'drag' them, but the far better way would be to enter into a friendly discussion to find a better way forward.

quote:
So SusanDoris and HughWillRidmee, the question still stands - why do you suppose anyone would ask you to help them improve their prayer life?

I read that then returned to the OP for another look.

quote:
Can anybody explain what prayer is? What it is not? Where and how it happens. Is it possible to do it wrong? Can prayer hurt the one praying? Is there some best way to pray?

- What it is - definition above
- What it is not - what anyone thinks it is not
- Where - anywhere the person thinks in a praying mode
[How it happens - a person thinks of words which they think of as a prayer
-Can one pray wrongly - I don't think so, since no God/god/s or objects have ever responded to this point by saying what is the 'right'way
- Can it hurt the person praying - yes, I suppose it could hurt psychologically if the person is relying on an answer from outside humans' brains
- Is there some best way to pray - if the person believes the God/god/s they are praying to is one who hears, then the way they are praying must be okay

quote:
What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how?

Look at a book of prayers and choose one that has meaning for you and learn it. If it helps you to feel calmer, more able to cope with your particular problems, then it could well help you to work through things.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?
An assumption that I doubt is always accurate. Perhaps they're in trouble and they want to try and strike a bargain with God.

But that amounts to the same thing doesn't it?

quote:
Perhaps they want to know how to say grace at Christmas dinner.

I doubt it - if it were so, the person would simply ask how one says grace at Christmas Dinner.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts
It doesn't matter if it is a life-long athiest or someone who lost their faith later in life (and instead put their complete
faith in scientism) -
At least science is backed up by evidence, so unevidenced faith is not needed, and where there isn't evidence yet, the answer is 'we don't know yet'.

I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?
An assumption that I doubt is always accurate. Perhaps they're in trouble and they want to try and strike a bargain with God.
But that amounts to the same thing doesn't it?

Not necessarily. Some people who want to strike bargains with God have little interest in deepening their faith -- they want a quick fix with as little personal pain as possible. There was that rich young man who justed wanted to be saved, but went away sad because he had lots of stuff. Just give me the checklist without asking for too much commitment, please.

The Christmas grace suggestion was hyperbole for the sake of example.

The point is that I would be hesitant to assume that I know why someone else wants to pray or what motivation lies behind the questions posed in the OP, and I don't think HWR is that far off in suggesting that the first step in responding to those questions might be to ask some questions in return. Maybe not "Why do you want to pray?" necessarily (though depending on the situation, maybe so), but perhaps "what do you want to pray for?" or "why do you ask?" (Closer connection to God? Healing for a loved one?) In some circumstances, an appropriate question might even be "why do you think you don't know how?"

Questions such as these, asked in an appropriate manner, can do two things, I think: They can help the one responding understand what the questioner is really asking, which may or may not be accurately reflected by the initial question (and which in turn can prevent giving advice that doesn't really sctach the questioner's itch). And they can help convey to the questioner a desire to really understand what's on his or her mind, not just give pat answers.

If two people ask me how to pray -- one because she longs for a deeper relationship with God and one because his son has cancer -- I'm going to give very different answers.

[ 22. October 2012, 17:50: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

@Daronmedway - it depends on how you understand the point he's making though, of course. One could argue that in some of these accounts he's drawing attention to God as the source of everything and for everyone rather than encouraging us to have a sense of a specially privileged individual hot-line - but I take the point you are making here.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

Well, Jesus does say that it is "your Father" (6:11) who should be petitioned with such confident utilitarian persistence, so it would be fair to read hints of the "Lord's Prayer" in there which was given specifically to his disciples in response to a request for teaching on prayer..

[ 22. October 2012, 18:17: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

Posted by Squibs (# 14408) on :

Susan, I think we have discussed scientism before, no? John Cleese has an interesting skit on the philosophy here.

Long before Dawkins described faith as "blind trust, in the absence of evidence, even in the teeth of evidence" Christians had understood it differently. If you are talking to a Christian - at least on with a sophisticated understanding of what it means to be a Christian - they wont describe faith as you do. Faith in the New testament is presented as trust (Gk - pistis), specifically trust in God which is based, in part, on evidence - philosophical, experiential, historical, scientific and perhaps others beside.

Forgive me if I am incorrect here but I believe that I am familiar enough with your beliefs to say the following.

You have begged the question when you define all faith as blind faith.Now you might dismiss the arguments an apologist gives for the reasons for why she has faith, but that doesn't mean her case is presented without supporting evidenced. It might just mean that her evidence simply does not move you - and this could be for any number of reasons, some good, some not so good.

It certainly doesn't help the conversation when you offer a definition of faith that you know your opponents will reject. Indeed, it's all quite amusing in light of of the implied certainty behind your fall-back mantra "we don't know yet". If that isn't underpinned by a mixture of faith and hope I don't know what is.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?
An assumption that I doubt is always accurate. Perhaps they're in trouble and they want to try and strike a bargain with God. Perhaps they want to know how to say grace at Christmas dinner.

Maybe they want to avoid a trademark infringement suit:

quote:
Dropping to a knee like Tim Tebow might cost you now.

The New York Jets backup quarterback has officially trademarked "Tebowing," the move in which he goes down on one knee and holds a clenched fist against his forehead while praying during games. After Tebow led the Denver Broncos to a series of fourth-quarter comeback victories last season, "Tebowing" swept the country — with actor Robert Downey Jr. even doing it at the Oscars.

New York's Newsday first reported that the trademark was approved last week after paperwork was filed in April.

According to the account in the (Moonie owned) Washington Times the trademark applies to the specific pose (kneeling on one knee and placing fist on forehead) not just the term "Tebowing".

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Susan, I think we have discussed scientism before, no? John Cleese has an interesting skit on the philosophy here.

Thanks for the John Cleese skit Squibs - I think The Great Gumby would enjoy that! [Killing me]

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science.

Thank you. Scientism is a word that I have met only recently, so am wary of using it.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Squibs
I have read your post, for which thank you. Back tomorrow!

Posted by Squibs (# 14408) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
[QUOTE]Yes. The DVD is available, and there's a short book, "Growing Into Silence", which suggests various ways that people can try to get themselves into the habit of spending time with God. The site is here and there's a link on that page called "What is Prayer" which may be useful to you.

I can only say that for me personally, "The Big Silence" coincided with a very dry, dreary time in my life when I was just coasting through life on a day by day basis without much hope. It was like being given water in a desert. It won't be the same for everybody but hopefully some of it may be helpful to you.

Thanks for bringing the book to my attention. Did you see the previous series, I wonder? They also did a flow-up show a year or two later. It was similar concept to the Big Silence but the participants were immersed in contemplative lifestyle for quite a bit longer - 40 days/ nights if I recall correctly. It was interesting to see that withdrawing from the hustle and bustle of ordinary life brought about reactions akin to withdrawal symptoms.

Again, another fantastic programme that was meaningful, cathartic and in some cases brought the participants closer to God.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:

True, no doubt....but one wouldn't expect an ex-believer to have much to say about an effective prayer strategy.

How on earth do you measure the effectiveness of a prayer strategy?

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I still think SusanDoris and HughWillRidmee are trying to flog a dead horse here. If someone wanted to ask another how to pray, the reason would be to deepen their faith and prayer-life, wouldn't it?
It doesn't matter if it is a life-long athiest or someone who lost their faith later in life (and instead put their complete faith in scientism) - such people will try to drag the asker in the complete opposite direction to what is intended.
So SusanDoris and HughWillRidmee, the question still stands - why do you suppose anyone would ask you to help them improve their prayer life?

I don’t suppose – that’s your territory and I’m content to leave it to you.

Perhaps you would be taken more seriously if you were to stop making assumptions and generalising about people you don’t know?

I responded to the question What do you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how? with an honest answer. If someone asks me about any problem in their life I take a similar view – in my experience most people are quite capable of sorting out their own situations once they stand back far enough from their fears/hopes/investments to get a detached view of the problem.

What would you say to someone who desperately wants to pray, but who doesn't know how? if that person were a muslim or a hindu?

To discourage you from repeating your irrelevant question -
1- I don’t know every reason why someone would ask for assistance with how to pray – and nor do you.
2- I don’t always wear my “Good without God” badge (literally and/or figuratively)- I’m not burdened by the great commission.
3- People might assume that my upbringing would enable me to be helpful.
4- I can envisage situations where I, as a humanist, would put concern for the individual above personal preference (though I probably would have been incapable of doing so during my rabidly christian period).
5- It is insulting to suggest that I would be unable to resist taking advantage of someone’s confusion to press my views, particularly after I have clearly stated that I would seek to support them in finding the solution that works for them – even if it’s not my preferred result.

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science.

Thanks - I may be thick but I'm capable of noticing when you drag in a straw man without you having to point it out to me.

Posted by chicklegirl (# 11741) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
And yet Jesus actively encourages such simplistic utilitarianism!

quote:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
He makes it sound so much better than me though, the silver tongued so-and-so...

This is really one of my favorite scriptures about prayer; it covers a wide range of motivations, but even more, it illuminates that tender relationship that can be available to us as we commune with a loving God.

As to a right and wrong way, the litmus test for me is: is the manner in which I'm praying, or the thing which I'm asking for, bringing me closer to God or removing me further from Him? This includes not only requests that would harm others, but also whether I'm trying to impose my will over God's in any given situation (which may only hurt me, but nevertheless takes me further away from the path that will lead me to peace).

I've prayed while walking, driving, riding a bicycle, pulling weeds, washing dishes, yelling at my kids--and I think even changing diapers. If I'm in a moment when I need to ask for grace to do the right thing, I don't much care what else I'm doing--I fill my heart with prayer to beg for wisdom and good judgement.

I've used fixed prayers (the Serenity Prayer is a favorite), but I find so much consolation from pouring out my heart--troubles, joys, and all--and then listening until I feel His spirit whisper to me. I think prayer can be whatever it needs to be for our individual edification. No prayer police are going to give you a ticket for "doing it wrong" (and thank goodness for it!)

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:

True, no doubt....but one wouldn't expect an ex-believer to have much to say about an effective prayer strategy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from HughWillRidmee

How on earth do you measure the effectiveness of a prayer strategy?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An excellent question. I don't see prayer as exclusively petitionary. I think that meaningful communication is essential in relationships generally, and of particular import in the context of relationship with God. I say that, because there is a Christian imperative of transformation, which is most likely to occur and continue in an on-going and developing intimacy with him. An ineffective prayer strategy may be one in which that intimacy is under-developed, where faith is eroded, and where one is finally overcome by doubts. And of course, someone who finds themselves increasingly out of step with God, is likely to have their faith further eroded by seeing less positive responses to petitionary prayer – if only because they are not in a position to be asking for the right things. An effective strategy leads to deeper intimacy, and all which flows from that.

That being the case, it would seem to me that an ex-believer is unlikely to be able to offer much in the way of helpful advice, regarding how one should pray.

Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :

Disciples of Christ are supposed to answer others' prayers (cure the sick,feed the hungry,visit the prisoner etc.)aren't they? Does anyone think that sort of physical activity is a component of their own prayers, or makes their own 'prayer strategy' more effective?

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chicklegirl:

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
And yet Jesus actively encourages such simplistic utilitarianism!

quote:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
He makes it sound so much better than me though, the silver tongued so-and-so...
This is really one of my favorite scriptures about prayer; it covers a wide range of motivations, but even more, it illuminates that tender relationship that can be available to us as we commune with a loving God.

As to a right and wrong way, the litmus test for me is: is the manner in which I'm praying, or the thing which I'm asking for, bringing me closer to God or removing me further from Him? This includes not only requests that would harm others, but also whether I'm trying to impose my will over God's in any given situation (which may only hurt me, but nevertheless takes me further away from the path that will lead me to peace).

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Thanks for bringing the book to my attention. Did you see the previous series, I wonder? They also did a flow-up show a year or two later. It was similar concept to the Big Silence but the participants were immersed in contemplative lifestyle for quite a bit longer - 40 days/ nights if I recall correctly. It was interesting to see that withdrawing from the hustle and bustle of ordinary life brought about reactions akin to withdrawal symptoms.

"The Monastery"? Yes. Wonderful stuff.

And once you start seeking to build silence into your own life you do realize just how much noise and distraction there really is. Sara Maitland wrote the excellent (if loquacious) "A Book of Silence" which is her search, over a period of years, for that stillness and what silence actually means. It's a fascinating and thought-provoking read, not particularly religious, but a compelling read. I shall have to dig it out again.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Squibs:
Susan, I think we have discussed scientism before, no? John Cleese has an interesting skit on the philosophy here.

Yes I think we've put the world to rights one way and another, and I have always enjoyed reading your posts. I'll have a look at that link later. Thank you.

quote:
Long before Dawkins described faith as "blind trust, in the absence of evidence, even in the teeth of evidence" Christians had understood it differently. If you are talking to a Christian - at least on with a sophisticated understanding of what it means to be a Christian - they wont describe faith as you do.

Well, no, they couldn't, because they have added anextra 'layer', the belief/faith/trust in God. Whether it's a sophisticated view of what a Christian is, or a simple one, it seems to me a fact that it is only faith that makes the difference between a person who follows the teachings of wise people throughout history and those who do that, vbut add a conviction that their God exists.

quote:
Faith in the New testament is presented as trust (Gk - pistis), specifically trust in God which is based, in part, on evidence - philosophical, experiential, historical, scientific and perhaps others beside.

But surely, any evidence other than scientific is entirely from the thoughts and ideas of people who have believed they were inspired by a God, had the thoughts and ideas 'given' to them by God, etc isn't it? But I am firmly of the opinion that our brains are completely capable of creating it all.
What would you put forward as scientific evidence you refer to here? (I appreciate you may have done this before, but if so, I apologise for not attempting to find it!)

quote:
Forgive me if I am incorrect here but I believe that I am familiar enough with your beliefs to say the following.

You have begged the question when you define all faith as blind faith.

Not really, only the faith that is required to believe in God/god/s. All other aspects of life for which we have faith can be traced bacusing the scientific method and where the answer cannot be proved, itmust wait its turn, rather than be assigned to God in my opinion.

quote:
Now you might dismiss the arguments an apologist gives for the reasons for why she has faith,

I hope I don't dismiss them out of hand - I can understand many of them since I had a strong belief in God once.

quote:
...but that doesn't mean her case is presented without supporting evidenced. It might just mean that her evidence simply does not move you - and this could be for any number of reasons, some good, some not so good.

The main reason it would not move me is that it would be subjective. I have learnt to be more critical - I alwayswanted to know, 'Is this TRUE?' What is required is objective evidence, isn't it?

quote:
It certainly doesn't help the conversation when you offer a definition of faith that you know your opponents will reject.

Fair comment.

quote:
Indeed, it's all quite amusing in light of of the implied certainty behind your fall-back mantra "we don't know yet". If that isn't underpinned by a mixture of faith and hope I don't know what is.

Well, the older I get, the more certain I get, but will always be ready to be proved wrong!

As always, thank you for the interesting time I have spent reading and responding.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

squibs
Love the John Cleese you tube! [Big Grin]

I see there are a few others there too. bookmarked!

Posted by Squibs (# 14408) on :

Susan, Rather than drag the thread off topic, might I suggest that we take this to PMs or another thread.

I'll try my best to respond to you overt the coming days.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:

4- I can envisage situations where I, as a humanist, would put concern for the individual above personal preference (though I probably would have been incapable of doing so during my rabidly christian period).

Now here's a surprise - I can do that too, and I've never been a humanist. If you don't believe me, that's up to you.

quote:
5- It is insulting to suggest that I would be unable to resist taking advantage of someone’s confusion to press my views, particularly after I have clearly stated that I would seek to support them in finding the solution that works for them – even if it’s not my preferred result.

If you read my response properly, you would see that I did not accuse humanists and atheists alone of doing this - I said we are all guilty, including christians, whether we admit it or not.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science.
Thanks - I may be thick but I'm capable of noticing when you drag in a straw man without you having to point it out to me.

Why is it a straw man HughWillRidmee? To me it is just the way it is.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

Sorry to double post, but I just want to let you all know that you are all cordially invited to join my new thread on SCIENTISM!

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
4- I can envisage situations where I, as a humanist, would put concern for the individual above personal preference (though I probably would have been incapable of doing so during my rabidly christian period).

Now here's a surprise - I can do that too, and I've never been a humanist. If you don't believe me, that's up to you.

Another unfounded assumption? – two in fact?
1 - that I should suggest that you couldn’t do that and
2 - that I might disbelieve you

quote:
5- It is insulting to suggest that I would be unable to resist taking advantage of someone’s confusion to press my views, particularly after I have clearly stated that I would seek to support them in finding the solution that works for them – even if it’s not my preferred result. If you read my response properly, you would see that I did not accuse humanists and atheists alone of doing this - I said we are all guilty, including christians, whether we admit it or not.

Again – I didn’t suggest you were singling out any group(s), but if the cap fits........

And you may believe that everyone is guilty of this, but some of us would be so aware of the risk that we would “err on the safe side”; and just to forestall any persecution complexes out there – I’m sure that some christians would do the same.

I put quite a lot of effort into trying to be precise in what I say – whilst I undoubtedly fail on occasions it is somewhat disappointing when my efforts are persistently mangled to fit someone’s desire for online martyrdom.

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I used the term scientism for a reason - because 'scientism' is a philosophy, whereby the person believes that science is the only place where mankind can get answers, even to questions which have nothing to do with science. Thanks - I may be thick but I'm capable of noticing when you drag in a straw man without you having to point it out to me. Why is it a straw man HughWillRidmee ? To me it is just the way it is.

Sure – but to everyone else introducing a concept simply to attack it whilst appearing to address the real issue is known as a Straw man

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:

Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:

True, no doubt....but one wouldn't expect an ex-believer to have much to say about an effective prayer strategy.
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Quote from HughWillRidmee

How on earth do you measure the effectiveness of a prayer strategy?
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An excellent question. I don't see prayer as exclusively petitionary. I think that meaningful communication is essential in relationships generally, and of particular import in the context of relationship with God. I say that, because there is a Christian imperative of transformation, which is most likely to occur and continue in an on-going and developing intimacy with him. An ineffective prayer strategy may be one in which that intimacy is under-developed, where faith is eroded, and where one is finally overcome by doubts. And of course, someone who finds themselves increasingly out of step with God, is likely to have their faith further eroded by seeing less positive responses to petitionary prayer – if only because they are not in a position to be asking for the right things. An effective strategy leads to deeper intimacy, and all which flows from that.

That being the case, it would seem to me that an ex-believer is unlikely to be able to offer much in the way of helpful advice, regarding how one should pray.

Actually I agree that, given your response, I could not offer much in the way of helpful advice. The problem with that expectation is that help is not only a function of the intentions and/or erudition of the donor, it’s dependent upon the reaction of the recipient (it’s more about the {hopefully} helped rather than the {hopeful} helper). I suggest that by being confronted with relevant questions the recipient may work out a meaningful (to them and perhaps only them) solution which is more relevant than an imposed/recommended solution which comes with all the weight of authority.

And I still don’t think that any god worth its salt would worry about how you pray. I know that many people believe in a petty, pedantic, rule-driven god but surely that is just the product of petty, pedantic, rule-driven human beings isn’t it? If how you pray makes a difference to you but not to your god the difference is probably solely within the person praying isn’t it?

Reference asking for the right things isn't this the same as asking for what is going to happen whether requested or not?

Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :

I wrote
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That being the case, it would seem to me that an ex-believer is unlikely to be able to offer much in the way of helpful advice, regarding how one should pray.
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Quote from HughWillRidmee
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Actually I agree that, given your response, I could not offer much in the way of helpful advice. The problem with that expectation is that help is not only a function of the intentions and/or erudition of the donor, it’s dependent upon the reaction of the recipient (it’s more about the {hopefully} helped rather than the {hopeful} helper). I suggest that by being confronted with relevant questions the recipient may work out a meaningful (to them and perhaps only them) solution which is more relevant than an imposed/recommended solution which comes with all the weight of authority.

And I still don’t think that any god worth its salt would worry about how you pray. I know that many people believe in a petty, pedantic, rule-driven god but surely that is just the product of petty, pedantic, rule-driven human beings isn’t it? If how you pray makes a difference to you but not to your god the difference is probably solely within the person praying isn’t it?

Reference asking for the right things isn't this the same as asking for what is going to happen whether requested or not?
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Am I allowed to change my mind? It now seems I may I have been a little dimissive, as there is merit in your approach.

Certainly, I would advise on some aspects of process - e.g., things like incorporating the attitudes revealed in the Lord's prayer, connecting with God throughout the day as opposed to relying on 'formal' prayer times....the importance of confession, repentance,et al. And I'd want to explain the purposes of prayer, at least as I understand them. But notwithstanding basic guidelines, I think the individual should be free to develop their own prayer regime, as you suggest.

I couldn't agree more when you say "many people believe in a petty, pedantic, rule-driven god but surely that is just the product of petty, pedantic, rule-driven human beings...". That's what I call religion, and I bow to no man in my detestation of religion, except Christ alone. Judging by what he said to the Pharisees, he dislikes it even more than I do.

You ask, "Reference asking for the right things isn't this the same as asking for what is going to happen whether requested or not?"

I guess that depends whether you believe petitionary prayer produces just a sense of involvement in God's plans, or if it can actually prompt intervention. I personally believe that scripture reveals a God who delights in elevating his people by allowing them significant and meaningful input. I strongly believe that if we 'have the mind of Christ', we will see far more 'answered' prayer, simply because we will be asking along the right lines. But I also believe that God wants to respond generously towards his people, and there may well be times when he will grant requests merely because his children ask him....i.e., that he allows us to prevail. The book of James tells us that "the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective". I understand that to mean our prayers can make a real difference.

Posted by Brother Oscar (# 17227) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Flossymole:
Originally posted by Brother Oscar:
quote:
Just as Julian of Norwich recorded in her Showings:
quote:I am the ground of your praying. First, it is my will that you should have this; then I make it your will, too: then I make you ask for it, and you do so. How then should you not have what you pray for?
Thank you for that. That seems to explain the remarkable granting of the first prayer I ever prayed for an enemy (which got the enemy out of a frightening, embarrassing situation, turned us into friends and made me a Christian, without any further doubt).

Sorry for the late response, I've been away from the Ship for a while but I just wanted to say how great it was to read how prayer and heeding the call to love our enemies led you to Christian faith. Thank you for sharing that. It reminds me of James Alison's off the cuff definition of forgiveness: 'Don't let the bastards get to you.' It is only through prayer that I feel we can let go of anger and learn to forgive.

quote:
Originally posted by Flossymole:
Disciples of Christ are supposed to answer others' prayers (cure the sick,feed the hungry,visit the prisoner etc.)aren't they? Does anyone think that sort of physical activity is a component of their own prayers, or makes their own 'prayer strategy' more effective?

Absolutely! It is unfortunate that this has been over looked, because I think it is a great question. I think prayer and action are intimately linked. This is where I would say that the Lord's prayer is more than a petitionary prayer. It is also what you might call an inductive prayer, in that each petition relates to the life of discipleship, and the coming Kingdom of God.

Hallowed be thy name - Jesus had called the disciples to 'be holy as God is holy' and to reflect God's holiness in their compassion and mercy.
Thy kingdom come - Likewise the disciples were called when Jesus proclaimed: 'The Kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe in the Good News."
Thy will be done - So the disciples were to anticipate the coming of the Kingdom by obeying and doing God's will.
Give us this day our daily bread - Strikes me as reflecting the disciples itinerant lifestyle and their taking little for the journey but depending on God where ever they went.
Forgive us our sins - as we forgive - And this was the business they were in, freeing people from the sin that binds them and keeps them from God.
Lead us not into temptation - Deliver us from evil - The Greek and original context of these last two petitions say much more about resisting Empire and the world than about personal sins. Similarly, we might think about resisting global capitalism and exploitative media.

Not only with this in mind, but also thinking of my own experience of prayer granting me an awareness of God's will but also energy and compassion through the Holy Spirit, I would say that the way we pray is intimately tied up with the kind of discipleship that we live out.

The opposite is also true. If the way that we live is antithetical to God, we will find it very hard to pray. If we are closed and do not live compassionately and are unjustly, then our hearts will find it difficult to open up to God. Our meanness and injustice will accuse us before God. The Desert Fathers we quite clear that anger makes it impossible to pray.

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