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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Best of Man
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
What is the finest quality of our humanness?
I have recently come to the opinion it's kindness. So very rare in its pure form, and exquisitely beautiful. It is surely the highest virtue.
What say you, from your perspective?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I think the capacity for empathy, particularly across cultural and religious boundaries.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The older I get, the more I value basic competence. But that's probably just me being a grumpy old sod.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Surely it's our ability to laugh -- particularly at ourselves?
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Can you have kindness without empathy?
If suffering is not seen and understood, which takes empathy, wouldn't that prevent a response of kindness? I think children and teenagers are often unkind through their own lack of empathy.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Can you have kindness without empathy?
If suffering is not seen and understood, which takes empathy, wouldn't that prevent a response of kindness? I think children and teenagers are often unkind through their own lack of empathy.
I think it is possible to think you're being kind when in fact you're acting without consideration of the person. Hence I think it is important to cultivate empathy rather than kindness.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But the torturer has empathy, and may in fact have it to a very high degree. But he lacks compassion.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Kindness is certainly way up there. The longer I live the more I appreciate kindness, and the more I see it as being the thing that stops people being cruel to each other. If people were kinder to each other the world would improve 100%.
It's kindness that civilizes the world.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
The way we can work together; defining the object of the exercise, dividing up the tasks needed, and having a party afterwards where we all get drunk.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Can you have kindness without empathy?
If suffering is not seen and understood, which takes empathy, wouldn't that prevent a response of kindness? I think children and teenagers are often unkind through their own lack of empathy.
I think it is possible to think you're being kind when in fact you're acting without consideration of the person. Hence I think it is important to cultivate empathy rather than kindness.
On the other hand, people with Asperger's/High Functioning Autism can be very kind with virtually no empathy.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
One problem is that 'empathy' is often used with a rather vague meaning. If you take it to mean 'being able to take the point of view of someone else', then the torturer may have a very refined empathy.
However, it is often used to mean 'being able to take their point of view in a positive way', which then excludes the torturer.
But this second sense sort of conflates two meanings, both standing in your shoes, and feeling kindly to you. Depends on how pedantic you are feeling.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What is the finest quality of our humanness?
I have recently come to the opinion it's kindness. So very rare in its pure form, and exquisitely beautiful. It is surely the highest virtue.
What say you, from your perspective?
This seems to me to be a bit of an odd question. Supposing we take for now that kindness is a fine quality of our humanness - the problem is that we are not always kind, but we are unkind. So why is not unkindness also a quality of our humanness?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Altruism. In 'survival of the fittest' theories, we would only be in it for ourselves and may the best man win. Perhaps we would include our immediate family in that protective circle for procreative reasons. But otherwise why help the poor, the weak, those unable to look after themselves?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What is the finest quality of our humanness?
From the perspective of God and Angels in fiction, it is our capacity to love and our capacity for endurance and our capacity for creativity.
From a human perspective - yeah - totally agree - kindness is way up there.
Often because it is most striking when we most need it. And how capable it is of lifting our souls.
Stephen Fry has a great little quote on kindness
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Altruism is an innate aspect of our nature and also a trait demonstrated in the behaviour of many other animals. Reciprocal altruism and kin selection are both products and drivers of natural selection, and I rate them as qualities alongside that of the desire for sex. It's just biology.
I feel kindness is somehow different, though, and although it comes in many shades- including those baser, such as kindness for secondary gain (e.g., getting off on being charitable)- I think it is possible for people occasionally to be purely kind to others. This, I feel is the high point of our humanity. The capacity to be kind for no other reason than to be kind is a truly special thing, and it distinguishes us from all the other animals.
I cannot think of a finer quality, though I should have though theological views might differ.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The capacity to be kind for no other reason than to be kind is a truly special thing, and it distinguishes us from all the other animals.
I cannot think of a finer quality, though I should have though theological views might differ.
Us theologians call that Grace. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 24. October 2012, 13:42: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
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Posted
quote:
The capacity to be kind for no other reason than to be kind is a truly special thing, and it distinguishes us from all the other animals.
I agree, and I would add that even higher than this is acting for the good of another even if it has a negative impact on oneself. To be self-sacrificing. I believe this is what Paul refers to as 'love'.
[ 24. October 2012, 13:51: Message edited by: PerkyEars ]
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I feel kindness is somehow different, though, and although it comes in many shades- including those baser, such as kindness for secondary gain (e.g., getting off on being charitable)- I think it is possible for people occasionally to be purely kind to others. This, I feel is the high point of our humanity. The capacity to be kind for no other reason than to be kind is a truly special thing, and it distinguishes us from all the other animals.
I am not sure exactly what you mean by kindness. I have seen dogs who are normally very exuberant sit patiently beside an unhappy person and occasionally lick them. I think this is kindness.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The best of 'man' is to accept women as equals and therefore this thread should be renamed 'The best of humanity'.
Oh, please.
If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.
Moo, I fear you may be anthropomorphising rather, though I agree it does depend on what 'kindness' means.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I still think that in Man, altruism goes beyond that of most animals.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dal Segno
al Fine
# 14673
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Posted
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, self-control
Can you pick one of those as being the best? Or do they all combine to make the best? Or does it depend on context?
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Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
Posts: 1200 | From: Pacific's triple star | Registered: Mar 2009
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, self-control
Can you pick one of those as being the best? Or do they all combine to make the best? Or does it depend on context?
I'm jumping in here - not sure of the context - but aren't these the fruits of the Spirit?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.
Which man was Prime Minister of the UK in 1985?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm jumping in here - not sure of the context - but aren't these the fruits of the Spirit?
I think the term you are looking for is fruit of the Spirit.
[ 24. October 2012, 19:05: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Can I put in a word for old fashioned moral courage. Not the bull-at-a-gate bravery of the battlefield, nor the self-serving values one seeks to impose on others, but a personal resolve to take and continue on what is an undeniably righteous path, often in the face of institutional culture.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What is the finest quality of our humanness?
I have recently come to the opinion it's kindness. So very rare in its pure form, and exquisitely beautiful. It is surely the highest virtue.
What say you, from your perspective?
I agree with you. Completely. Also, I think 'kindness' is very difficult to define - you sort of know it when you see it - or experience it. Perhaps not so much when you are 'being' or 'doing' it. Kindness is perceived or experienced by its 'target', for want of a better word.
I have had a read through others' attempts to pin kindness down or tag it to other qualities, or say it's really just another word for this or that - here is my attempt. I think kindness has in it something of gentleness, something of patience, something of stillness, something of empathy, yes - but it isn't essentially any of these things. It is its own thing - a very special thing.
I like the Stephen Fry quote that was linked to - I identify with what he said. For myself, I can overlook any number of things in a person if they are kind.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
I can go with kindness being one of the most important virtues because of the tremendous impact it can have on the people we interact with and because it is one of the virtues we have the most opportunity to exercise in our everyday life.
However, there are other virtues that I consider to be greater, such as compassion, integrity, and altruism. But my nomination for the greatest would be the ultimate extreme of altruism, which is the willingness to sacrifice one's life for a comrade.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Can I put in a word for old fashioned moral courage. Not the bull-at-a-gate bravery of the battlefield, nor the self-serving values one seeks to impose on others, but a personal resolve to take and continue on what is an undeniably righteous path, often in the face of institutional culture.
C. S. Lewis, among others, pointed out that if you do not have moral courage, you will not be able to exercise your other virtues in all situations.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I still think that in Man, altruism goes beyond that of most animals.
I see what you're getting at. But altruism, to me, still has overtones of 'for the common good' which in the non-human animal kingdom is another phrase for natural selection. Eg, ant communities, ape and monkey grooming, meerkat nurseries etc. Some animals will put themselves in danger to protect their young, some will accept roles of restricted freedom, or reduce their own food intake etc, to keep the society going, mind offspring and such.
We could argue it's not altruism because it's instinctual rather than meditated (so far as we can tell), but in fact it might be regarded as even more remarkably altruistic because with animals it is ingrained.
Whereas, kindness is gratuitous. Altruism can be gratuitous, but in its usual form it's about the principle of doing good, because that is how the human race should relate to the world it lives in. But OTOH, kindness doesn't look for a personal return, nor for a return to society in the shape of an improved community.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I cannot help but to quote a line from the 1967 StarTrek episode, The City on the Edge of Forever. The quote has been burned into my brains ever since:
quote:
Mr. Spock to Edith Keeler:
"Let me help." A hundred years or so from now, I believe, a famous novelist will write a classic using that theme. He'll recommend those three words even over "I love you."
source: http://tinyurl.com/spockTOedith
It's probably ultimately a crib from Tolstoy and whomever he got it from. He'd probably say Jesus.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Imma go with grace.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Can I put in a word for old fashioned moral courage. Not the bull-at-a-gate bravery of the battlefield, nor the self-serving values one seeks to impose on others, but a personal resolve to take and continue on what is an undeniably righteous path, often in the face of institutional culture.
This would be my first. "The courage to be", as Tillich called it. Without that it's hard to put other virtues into action. On the other hand it is rather neutral and metaphysical so ...
My next would be the ability to distance oneself and see other people's point of view ('listening' perhaps in it's widest sense) and ideally to be able to see myself as they see me. Which, for me, tends to mean: Trudy Scrumptious'
our ability to laugh -- particularly at ourselves
And since I'm also becoming a grumpy old sod: Doc Tor's basic competence. But that's irredeemable consequentialism - watching people full of compassion and empathy who don't manage to get anything done. I don't value the virtue without its impact on others. Dreadfully I feel inclined to recall Mrs Thatcher's comment that it was fortunate the Good Samaritan had some money (and basic first aid skills).
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
For its ability to move, excite, and to communicate far beyond words; for its part in building fellowship, defining cultures, and transcending divisions, I'm going to nominate
our tendency to sing.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The best of 'man' is to accept women as equals and therefore this thread should be renamed 'The best of humanity'.
Oh, please.
If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.
You will have to spread your sympathy very wide since many are thus offended.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The best of 'man' is to accept women as equals and therefore this thread should be renamed 'The best of humanity'.
Oh, please.
If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.
I wasn't offended in the least. I read it as 'mankind' and include myself in that term.
Interestingly, when typing I always type wo/mankind, but it doesn't mean I'm offended by 'man' or 'mankind' - just sensitive that many people are.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.
You will have to spread your sympathy very wide since many are thus offended.
Many folks need to get over themselves.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
leo is wrong to think that the use of "Man" in the OP indicates male people -- it of course indicates all of humanity. The sexism is more subtle than that: the usage implies that being male is the representative norm for humanity. This being the case, contemporary style manuals advise writers to eschew its use. The usage is so antediluvian, though, that it makes me picture Yorick as a Victorian gentleman with massive lambchops, wearing a smoking jacket, sitting in an over-stuffed leather chair in a parlor crammed full of knick-knacks, curiosities and objets d'art.
I'm going to go with kindness too, mainly because it's the manifestation of "love your neighbor" that I can kind of understand.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I agree that "humanity" is to be preferred to "man" in civilized writing. But I can't take breathless offense on behalf of other people either.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I don't feel offended by it; but it does strike me as rather quaint and antediluvian.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Uncanny, Ruth (sans muttonchops).
<checks for hidden webcam>
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I was going to say that "Man" continues to be acceptable in fantasy writing and fossilized phrases like "Children of Men," but thought better of it. Now I've unthought better of it. Or is it "thought worse of it?"
The world may never know.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Uncanny, Ruth (sans muttonchops).
Muttonchops! I knew "lambchops" didn't sound right, but couldn't figure out why.
There was discussion upthread about kindness being dependent upon compassion, and I'd add that it's dependent upon understanding as well. I know someone who frequently intends to be kind to me, but who misunderstands me so badly that her efforts to be kind go very wrong.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
For its ability to move, excite, and to communicate far beyond words; for its part in building fellowship, defining cultures, and transcending divisions, I'm going to nominate
our tendency to sing.
I'd love to say the same thing. But Olivier Messiaen (composer and ornithologist) thought that birds have us beat hands down.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Interestingly, when typing I always type wo/mankind, but it doesn't mean I'm offended by 'man' or 'mankind' - just sensitive that many people are.
The problem isn't that it's offensive. It's that it's inaccurate; as Ruth points out it implies things about which human beings are typical and which human beings are special cases.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I agree that kindness is the Best of Wo/man. Especially the form of kindness that makes itself known in some very unkind of situations.
One such example comes from the closing stages of WW1 when Germany, in the last throes of desperation, was recruiting boy soldiers of 14/15 years old.
An Allied soldier came across one such recruit who was fatally injured by the tracks of an advancing tank. He held the young man's hand and, in the moments before he died, comforted him with the words "Your Mother is here".
Tales of this type of kindness can often bring tears to the back of the eyes.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Maybe our greatest distinction is our overarching sense of political correctness? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I was going to say that "Man" continues to be acceptable in fantasy writing and fossilized phrases like "Children of Men," but thought better of it. Now I've unthought better of it. Or is it "thought worse of it?"
The world may never know.
I think "Children of Men" is Norse isn't it. Having to do with Gods who also fathered children. Not sure the reference for this. If the reference is specific to fathers, then it wouldn't necessarily be sexist I'd suggest.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I think "Children of Men" is Norse isn't it. Having to do with Gods who also fathered children. Not sure the reference for this. If the reference is specific to fathers, then it wouldn't necessarily be sexist I'd suggest.
Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. Psalm 90:3
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... composer and ornithologist ...
There just had to be one, didn't there?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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