Ship of Fools: The Best of Man

Thread: The Best of Man Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

What is the finest quality of our humanness?

I have recently come to the opinion it's kindness. So very rare in its pure form, and exquisitely beautiful. It is surely the highest virtue.

What say you, from your perspective?

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

I think the capacity for empathy, particularly across cultural and religious boundaries.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

The older I get, the more I value basic competence. But that's probably just me being a grumpy old sod.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Surely it's our ability to laugh -- particularly at ourselves?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Can you have kindness without empathy?

If suffering is not seen and understood, which takes empathy, wouldn't that prevent a response of kindness? I think children and teenagers are often unkind through their own lack of empathy.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Can you have kindness without empathy?

If suffering is not seen and understood, which takes empathy, wouldn't that prevent a response of kindness? I think children and teenagers are often unkind through their own lack of empathy.

I think it is possible to think you're being kind when in fact you're acting without consideration of the person. Hence I think it is important to cultivate empathy rather than kindness.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

But the torturer has empathy, and may in fact have it to a very high degree. But he lacks compassion.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

Kindness is certainly way up there. The longer I live the more I appreciate kindness, and the more I see it as being the thing that stops people being cruel to each other. If people were kinder to each other the world would improve 100%.

It's kindness that civilizes the world.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

The way we can work together; defining the object of the exercise, dividing up the tasks needed, and having a party afterwards where we all get drunk.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Can you have kindness without empathy?

If suffering is not seen and understood, which takes empathy, wouldn't that prevent a response of kindness? I think children and teenagers are often unkind through their own lack of empathy.
I think it is possible to think you're being kind when in fact you're acting without consideration of the person. Hence I think it is important to cultivate empathy rather than kindness.

On the other hand, people with Asperger's/High Functioning Autism can be very kind with virtually no empathy.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

One problem is that 'empathy' is often used with a rather vague meaning. If you take it to mean 'being able to take the point of view of someone else', then the torturer may have a very refined empathy.

However, it is often used to mean 'being able to take their point of view in a positive way', which then excludes the torturer.

But this second sense sort of conflates two meanings, both standing in your shoes, and feeling kindly to you. Depends on how pedantic you are feeling.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What is the finest quality of our humanness?

I have recently come to the opinion it's kindness. So very rare in its pure form, and exquisitely beautiful. It is surely the highest virtue.

What say you, from your perspective?

This seems to me to be a bit of an odd question. Supposing we take for now that kindness is a fine quality of our humanness - the problem is that we are not always kind, but we are unkind. So why is not unkindness also a quality of our humanness?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Altruism. In 'survival of the fittest' theories, we would only be in it for ourselves and may the best man win. Perhaps we would include our immediate family in that protective circle for procreative reasons. But otherwise why help the poor, the weak, those unable to look after themselves?

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What is the finest quality of our humanness?

From the perspective of God and Angels in fiction, it is our capacity to love and our capacity for endurance and our capacity for creativity.

From a human perspective - yeah - totally agree - kindness is way up there.

Often because it is most striking when we most need it. And how capable it is of lifting our souls.

Stephen Fry has a great little quote on kindness

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

Altruism is an innate aspect of our nature and also a trait demonstrated in the behaviour of many other animals. Reciprocal altruism and kin selection are both products and drivers of natural selection, and I rate them as qualities alongside that of the desire for sex. It's just biology.

I feel kindness is somehow different, though, and although it comes in many shades- including those baser, such as kindness for secondary gain (e.g., getting off on being charitable)- I think it is possible for people occasionally to be purely kind to others. This, I feel is the high point of our humanity. The capacity to be kind for no other reason than to be kind is a truly special thing, and it distinguishes us from all the other animals.

I cannot think of a finer quality, though I should have though theological views might differ.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The capacity to be kind for no other reason than to be kind is a truly special thing, and it distinguishes us from all the other animals.

I cannot think of a finer quality, though I should have though theological views might differ.

Us theologians call that Grace. [Biased]

[ 24. October 2012, 13:42: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by PerkyEars (# 9577) on :

quote:
The capacity to be kind for no other reason than to be kind is a truly special thing, and it distinguishes us from all the other animals.

I agree, and I would add that even higher than this is acting for the good of another even if it has a negative impact on oneself. To be self-sacrificing. I believe this is what Paul refers to as 'love'.

[ 24. October 2012, 13:51: Message edited by: PerkyEars ]

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I feel kindness is somehow different, though, and although it comes in many shades- including those baser, such as kindness for secondary gain (e.g., getting off on being charitable)- I think it is possible for people occasionally to be purely kind to others. This, I feel is the high point of our humanity. The capacity to be kind for no other reason than to be kind is a truly special thing, and it distinguishes us from all the other animals.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by kindness. I have seen dogs who are normally very exuberant sit patiently beside an unhappy person and occasionally lick them. I think this is kindness.

Moo

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

The best of 'man' is to accept women as equals and therefore this thread should be renamed 'The best of humanity'.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The best of 'man' is to accept women as equals and therefore this thread should be renamed 'The best of humanity'.

Oh, please.

If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.

Moo, I fear you may be anthropomorphising rather, though I agree it does depend on what 'kindness' means.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I still think that in Man, altruism goes beyond that of most animals.

Posted by Dal Segno (# 14673) on :

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, self-control

Can you pick one of those as being the best? Or do they all combine to make the best? Or does it depend on context?

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, self-control

Can you pick one of those as being the best? Or do they all combine to make the best? Or does it depend on context?

I'm jumping in here - not sure of the context - but aren't these the fruits of the Spirit?

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.

Which man was Prime Minister of the UK in 1985?

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I'm jumping in here - not sure of the context - but aren't these the fruits of the Spirit?

I think the term you are looking for is fruit of the Spirit.

[ 24. October 2012, 19:05: Message edited by: the long ranger ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Can I put in a word for old fashioned moral courage. Not the bull-at-a-gate bravery of the battlefield, nor the self-serving values one seeks to impose on others, but a personal resolve to take and continue on what is an undeniably righteous path, often in the face of institutional culture.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What is the finest quality of our humanness?

I have recently come to the opinion it's kindness. So very rare in its pure form, and exquisitely beautiful. It is surely the highest virtue.

What say you, from your perspective?

I agree with you. Completely. Also, I think 'kindness' is very difficult to define - you sort of know it when you see it - or experience it. Perhaps not so much when you are 'being' or 'doing' it. Kindness is perceived or experienced by its 'target', for want of a better word.

I have had a read through others' attempts to pin kindness down or tag it to other qualities, or say it's really just another word for this or that - here is my attempt. I think kindness has in it something of gentleness, something of patience, something of stillness, something of empathy, yes - but it isn't essentially any of these things. It is its own thing - a very special thing.

I like the Stephen Fry quote that was linked to - I identify with what he said. For myself, I can overlook any number of things in a person if they are kind.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

I can go with kindness being one of the most important virtues because of the tremendous impact it can have on the people we interact with and because it is one of the virtues we have the most opportunity to exercise in our everyday life.

However, there are other virtues that I consider to be greater, such as compassion, integrity, and altruism. But my nomination for the greatest would be the ultimate extreme of altruism, which is the willingness to sacrifice one's life for a comrade.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Can I put in a word for old fashioned moral courage. Not the bull-at-a-gate bravery of the battlefield, nor the self-serving values one seeks to impose on others, but a personal resolve to take and continue on what is an undeniably righteous path, often in the face of institutional culture.

C. S. Lewis, among others, pointed out that if you do not have moral courage, you will not be able to exercise your other virtues in all situations.

Moo

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I still think that in Man, altruism goes beyond that of most animals.

I see what you're getting at. But altruism, to me, still has overtones of 'for the common good' which in the non-human animal kingdom is another phrase for natural selection. Eg, ant communities, ape and monkey grooming, meerkat nurseries etc. Some animals will put themselves in danger to protect their young, some will accept roles of restricted freedom, or reduce their own food intake etc, to keep the society going, mind offspring and such.

We could argue it's not altruism because it's instinctual rather than meditated (so far as we can tell), but in fact it might be regarded as even more remarkably altruistic because with animals it is ingrained.

Whereas, kindness is gratuitous. Altruism can be gratuitous, but in its usual form it's about the principle of doing good, because that is how the human race should relate to the world it lives in. But OTOH, kindness doesn't look for a personal return, nor for a return to society in the shape of an improved community.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I cannot help but to quote a line from the 1967 StarTrek episode, The City on the Edge of Forever. The quote has been burned into my brains ever since:

quote:
Mr. Spock to Edith Keeler:

"Let me help." A hundred years or so from now, I believe, a famous novelist will write a classic using that theme. He'll recommend those three words even over "I love you."

source: http://tinyurl.com/spockTOedith

It's probably ultimately a crib from Tolstoy and whomever he got it from. He'd probably say Jesus.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Imma go with grace.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Can I put in a word for old fashioned moral courage. Not the bull-at-a-gate bravery of the battlefield, nor the self-serving values one seeks to impose on others, but a personal resolve to take and continue on what is an undeniably righteous path, often in the face of institutional culture.

This would be my first. "The courage to be", as Tillich called it. Without that it's hard to put other virtues into action. On the other hand it is rather neutral and metaphysical so ...

My next would be the ability to distance oneself and see other people's point of view ('listening' perhaps in it's widest sense) and ideally to be able to see myself as they see me. Which, for me, tends to mean: Trudy Scrumptious'
our ability to laugh -- particularly at ourselves

And since I'm also becoming a grumpy old sod: Doc Tor's basic competence. But that's irredeemable consequentialism - watching people full of compassion and empathy who don't manage to get anything done. I don't value the virtue without its impact on others. Dreadfully I feel inclined to recall Mrs Thatcher's comment that it was fortunate the Good Samaritan had some money (and basic first aid skills).

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

For its ability to move, excite, and to communicate far beyond words; for its part in building fellowship, defining cultures, and transcending divisions, I'm going to nominate

our tendency to sing.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The best of 'man' is to accept women as equals and therefore this thread should be renamed 'The best of humanity'.
Oh, please.

If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.

You will have to spread your sympathy very wide since many are thus offended.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The best of 'man' is to accept women as equals and therefore this thread should be renamed 'The best of humanity'.
Oh, please.

If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.

I wasn't offended in the least. I read it as 'mankind' and include myself in that term.

Interestingly, when typing I always type wo/mankind, but it doesn't mean I'm offended by 'man' or 'mankind' - just sensitive that many people are.

[Smile]

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

If anyone is offended by the mistaken idea that my usage of Man (as a proper noun, note) indicates male people, I am genuinely sorry for you.

You will have to spread your sympathy very wide since many are thus offended.

Many folks need to get over themselves.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

leo is wrong to think that the use of "Man" in the OP indicates male people -- it of course indicates all of humanity. The sexism is more subtle than that: the usage implies that being male is the representative norm for humanity. This being the case, contemporary style manuals advise writers to eschew its use. The usage is so antediluvian, though, that it makes me picture Yorick as a Victorian gentleman with massive lambchops, wearing a smoking jacket, sitting in an over-stuffed leather chair in a parlor crammed full of knick-knacks, curiosities and objets d'art.

I'm going to go with kindness too, mainly because it's the manifestation of "love your neighbor" that I can kind of understand.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I agree that "humanity" is to be preferred to "man" in civilized writing. But I can't take breathless offense on behalf of other people either.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I don't feel offended by it; but it does strike me as rather quaint and antediluvian.

Posted by Yorick (# 12169) on :

Uncanny, Ruth (sans muttonchops).

<checks for hidden webcam>

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I was going to say that "Man" continues to be acceptable in fantasy writing and fossilized phrases like "Children of Men," but thought better of it. Now I've unthought better of it. Or is it "thought worse of it?"

The world may never know.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Uncanny, Ruth (sans muttonchops).

Muttonchops! I knew "lambchops" didn't sound right, but couldn't figure out why.

There was discussion upthread about kindness being dependent upon compassion, and I'd add that it's dependent upon understanding as well. I know someone who frequently intends to be kind to me, but who misunderstands me so badly that her efforts to be kind go very wrong.

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
For its ability to move, excite, and to communicate far beyond words; for its part in building fellowship, defining cultures, and transcending divisions, I'm going to nominate

our tendency to sing.

I'd love to say the same thing. But Olivier Messiaen (composer and ornithologist) thought that birds have us beat hands down.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Interestingly, when typing I always type wo/mankind, but it doesn't mean I'm offended by 'man' or 'mankind' - just sensitive that many people are.

The problem isn't that it's offensive. It's that it's inaccurate; as Ruth points out it implies things about which human beings are typical and which human beings are special cases.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I agree that kindness is the Best of Wo/man. Especially the form of kindness that makes itself known in some very unkind of situations.

One such example comes from the closing stages of WW1 when Germany, in the last throes of desperation, was recruiting boy soldiers of 14/15 years old.
An Allied soldier came across one such recruit who was fatally injured by the tracks of an advancing tank. He held the young man's hand and, in the moments before he died, comforted him with the words "Your Mother is here".

Tales of this type of kindness can often bring tears to the back of the eyes.

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

Maybe our greatest distinction is our overarching sense of political correctness? [Snigger]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I was going to say that "Man" continues to be acceptable in fantasy writing and fossilized phrases like "Children of Men," but thought better of it. Now I've unthought better of it. Or is it "thought worse of it?"

The world may never know.

I think "Children of Men" is Norse isn't it. Having to do with Gods who also fathered children. Not sure the reference for this. If the reference is specific to fathers, then it wouldn't necessarily be sexist I'd suggest.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
I think "Children of Men" is Norse isn't it. Having to do with Gods who also fathered children. Not sure the reference for this. If the reference is specific to fathers, then it wouldn't necessarily be sexist I'd suggest.

Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. Psalm 90:3

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... composer and ornithologist ...

There just had to be one, didn't there?

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