Ship of Fools: Tie me up -- tie me down?

Thread: Tie me up -- tie me down? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

I've just watched a bit of Beethoven 9th from the Proms -- Barenboim, EW Divan Orchestra, etc.

So we had the young men of the chorus all in black suits, white shirts and conservative ties, the S & A soloists in elegant gowns (the alto's practically a ball gown -- lovely!) and Barenboim and the bass soloist both tie-less. Barenboim was wearing a trendy black suit with open collared white shirt, the bass was wearing an open necked black shirt -- which looked like rehearsal clothes.

What gives with this? It looks sloppy and under-planned. I agree that the important thing is the music, but the visual effect is a part of the musical experience, and I find this sort of thing distracting. And a suit, shirt and tie that fit properly are just as comfortable as anything less formal. Can we expect PJs next year? (See other thread.)

Your thoughts and experiences?

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

My thoughts...most of the musicians I know have a rebellious streak, and don't necessarily like to conform to anything, much less dress codes. Unless of course, it's their own idea to perform in more conventional ways. (They are artists, aren't they?)

My personal experience: I play the organ barefooted. I hear that gasping! Quit it! Lots of reasons, mostly I like to feel the air on my toes and the feel of the wooden pedals. I'm a tactile type of person. Sometimes I play with my Rockport hiking boots on. Usually that's because my back hurts and I just don't want to bend to take them off.

More experience. The president of our local AGO chapter a number of years ago had a burr in his butt about such things and told me I couldn't play at the annual organ marathon if I didn't wear shoes. Slippers would work, even. (That other thread rearing its head again!) I almost bought a pair of Converse sneakers with big stars on them to wear, but decided His Worshipfulness wasn't worth enough for me to spend money on something I didn't need. So, I withdrew from the concert.

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
I almost bought a pair of Converse sneakers with big stars on them to wear,

They work for mandolinists. [Big Grin]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Best to listen on the radio, then you can imagine them wearing anything you like. [Biased]

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
My thoughts...most of the musicians I know have a rebellious streak, and don't necessarily like to conform to anything, much less dress codes.

The correct dress code is whatever the person paying the musicians says it is. It's called professionalism.

Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :

What was Barenboim's "trendy suit" like? Did it have a stand-up collar? These suits, and the shirts worn with them (also having small stand-up collars) are not usually worn with ties (being, I think, a more Oriental, rather than a Western, style). But they can be considered formal wear.

Rene Pape, who I assume is the bass you refer to, probably doesn't own a tie. I'm not very familiar with his work, but I get the impression that he wouldn't care about convention.

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:

My personal experience: I play the organ barefooted. I hear that gasping! Quit it!

Alleluia!! I'm not the only one.

I've been getting grief about this for years.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

My husband will not be uniformed. he is the percussionist, so if the rule is black trousers and white shirt he wears black shirt and white trousers. He doesn't possess a tie.

He's never been called on it yet - there are too few good percussionists around and they don't want to rattle his cage!

The golf course has crazy dress codes so him and his mates are working hard on a take over bid to get a majority in the votes - dress codes beware!

[ 14. August 2012, 09:58: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

Oh. Never mind. [Razz]

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

ChastMastr, welcome back!

Moo

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

Thank you!! [Axe murder]

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

Dude, it's officially called a CONTRAbass. Of course the contrabassist is going to be contrary.

Love,
Spiffy
Contrabassist

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

My wife (Zeke) and I are in a choir that does Irish and English music. We rehearse at the local Irish Cultural Center. At our next concert, I shan't be wearing a necktie - didn't at my parents' funerals and never will again - and it is likely she won't be wearing a ball-gown. We'll just be dressed in black, as in a pit orchestra, I expect.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

We were in a secular choir in Belfast about 15 years ago whose dress-code was anything as long as it was black. It was the first choir I'd sung in where the ladies could wear trousers rather than dresses or skirts, which felt a bit odd at first, but it looked quite smart (and was more comfortable).

Is it possible that the conductor and soloist dressed differently to make them stand out from the gentlemen of the chorus and orchestra?

Posted by blackbeard (# 10848) on :

I sing in a (mixed, secular) choir where the ladies traditionally wear coloured blouses. Once the stock has run out we need to go back to square one since it is, apparently, impossible to reproduce exactly the right shade; so all the blouses need to be replaced. Replaced by what, exactly? While we are at it .... and what about the blokes? ....

The result is a certain measure of dissent on colours, styles etc. Herding cats would be easier.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Oh. Never mind.

Exactly.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

Ever since this thread started, I've been hoping ChastMastr would come out of hiding...

Welcome back ChastMastr!

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

It's like the Bat Signal. [Big Grin]

Posted by Unjust Stuart (# 13953) on :

It can only make sense for a singer not to wear anything which might constrict his throat.

Have you ever been to the Proms? The temperature in the Arena is sweltering and I expect it's even worse for those working hard on stage.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

The Three Choirs Festival this year was held at Hereford Cathedral during that lovely warm weather you had in western England the end of July. Inside the packed cathedral it got too warm at times (St. John Ambulance had to come to the rescue a couple of times when audience members were overcome). For one concert on a particularly warm evening the men of the orchestra and chorus were instructed not to wear their jackets and ties.

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Barenboim and the bass soloist both tie-less.
What gives with this?

If you watch the Barenboim/Divan Orchestra Beethoven cycle in order Barenboim started out in tie, fully buttoned up and (apologies for the image) sweating like a pig. By Symphony 3&4 he had his top button undone; by symphony 5, he'd lost the tie.

Honestly, I think it was a case of either the tie or the heart went first.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
...the bass was wearing an open necked black shirt -- which looked like rehearsal clothes...

Your thoughts and experiences?

That is how I dressed as a choir member yesterday when our secular choir performed. I did not wear a tie when my parents died and I have no plans to wear one when I sing. All went well at the dedication of the library at the local Irish Cultural Centre.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
That is how I dressed as a choir member yesterday when our secular choir performed. I did not wear a tie when my parents died and I have no plans to wear one when I sing.

Well done you! There is nothing 'smart' about ties - they will die out when the present 20 somethings get old. My boys never wear them.

It's simply a fashion item and (if I remember my schooldays) very uncomfortable.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I had the same thoughts as ChastMastr, but then I thought, "In Heaven?", and then I thought "I suppose it depends on what would define heaven for you..."

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
That is how I dressed as a choir member yesterday when our secular choir performed. I did not wear a tie when my parents died and I have no plans to wear one when I sing.
Well done you! There is nothing 'smart' about ties - they will die out when the present 20 somethings get old. My boys never wear them.

It's simply a fashion item and (if I remember my schooldays) very uncomfortable.

There was study back around 1978 that found that wearing a tie costs you 4-7 IQ points (presumably by restricting blood flow to the brain). Jack Anderson speculated that it might explain why the world is such a mess--it's mostly run by men wearing ties.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

If a tie is uncomfortable, you're not wearing it right. The main culprit is that the likely neck size on the shirt is too small. You should be able to get two fingers in the neck comfortably with the tie done up.

Pull on the shirt's neck after tying the tie to make sure the tie sits right and your neck is comfortable.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Concert dress is one of those things that makes me profoundly grateful to be a woman. Granted finding dresses in which one can play the cello and maintain one's dignity is not an easy enterprise, but having located one it just seems so much more comfortable to me than what the men have to wear.

It's not the neckties that get me - I can't imagine how anyone can play a stringed instrument wearing a structured jacket. I've tried it, and it constricts your shoulders and arms horribly.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Well done you! There is nothing 'smart' about ties - they will die out when the present 20 somethings get old. My boys never wear them.

You might be surprised to know that it's the present 20 and 30-somethings that have taken up the wearing of ties. The New York Times already noticed this trend 5 years ago:

After Years of Being Out, the Necktie Is In

It seems like half of all the menswear blogs are run by college kids. When you grow up in a Post-Hippie, Post-Punk world wearing a tie becomes an act of individuality (and wannabe Don Draper-ness).

quote:
It's simply a fashion item and (if I remember my schooldays) very uncomfortable.

Well, it keeps the shirt collar upright, it fills that white space between the neck and the jacket-button, lengthens the body, adds color to a dark suit and draws the eye to the face. Like Sober Preacher's Kid said, if it's uncomfortable you're not wearing it right.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
The New York Times already noticed this trend 5 years ago:

After Years of Being Out, the Necktie Is In

Along similar lines to their article about ties, the New York Times recently had an article about men taking up shopping and the sales of suits going up: The Rise of Men in Suits. Slim Ones.

This article, like the previous one, points out that the sales are being driven by young men and that a generational thing is going on similar to what I said about growing up in a post-hippie world.

quote:
Why is he wearing a suit, when he’s mostly self-employed and doesn’t have to? “Look at all the people passing through the airport in flip-flops,” he said. “My age group looked around at the lazy way people live their lives. There’s a backlash. We were raised by a generation of men that did everything they could to escape the culture of dressing up. I think many of us are yearning for something better. The vast majority of us are only now discovering how to tie a bow tie and how a pair of pants looks with no pleats.”

Mr. Pittman, the J. Crew manager, said that a younger generation of men had realized that “women like men in suits,”...

...Mr. Pruitt agreed. “There’s definitely a generational thing going on. The boomers’ kids are the most brand-conscious group to ever hit the planet. Fashion to them is very important. They want to look good. Young men are buying suits, suit separates, jackets. They’re wearing bow ties and short pants. There’s tons of fashion going on.”

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