Ship of Fools: Surviving small Christian denominations

Thread: Surviving small Christian denominations Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

When I look at church history especially in the UK, I am often surprised by the number of different small sects / denominations that there are / were.

Many of the smaller ones seem to be rapidly disappearing, and new house church / charismatic groups have sprung up.

The Quakers survive and make a special contribution.

Smaller groups though once stronger seem to be going. For example the Catholic Apostolic church has gone.

Have you encountered recently a small surviving sect?

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Ps I just discovered this thread comes up twice.

Why, I don't know. Sorry. Pse can one be removed / closed.

Thanks x

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

I closed the duplicate thread for you Percy B.

jedijudy
Heaven Host

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :

There are a whole bunch of tiny spinoffs of Mormonism- sects that follow the teachings of Joseph Smith, but reject the authority of the LDS church. You can find some listed here.

And let's not forget the thankfully microscopic Westboro Baptist Church.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

The last Muggletonian died in 1979. As they didn't hold with evangelism, that was a possibly foreseeable outcome. OTOH, since they didn't/don't hold with religious activities per se, they may still be invisibly extant.

Celibacy similarly can be seen as foredooming the Shakers.

But I see The Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion is still extant.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I did indeed come across a chapel of the Countess of Huntingdon' Connexion in the back street of St Ive's this January. You could throw a hymn book and hit the chapel of the Bible Christians as well.

I didn't know either survived.

The Strict and Particular Baptists had their chapel near me open when the Olympic torch was due to pass by and I went in and had a look round. They are aware that the name is a bit off-putting, and the building just says "Providence Chapel".

There's a number of threads on the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :

There are, apparently, two surviving members of the Panacea society - thus says their website. I would describe them as charmingly barking, and well worth reading up (and were you aware that the second coming would be in Bedford?)

Sadly my near namesakes, the Sandemanians, are extinct. Mind you, I'd extinct pretty badly if I served my congregation kail soup...

AG

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

In John Dalton Street in Manchester Uk there is New Church House.

Are they Swedenborgians? I ask because the New Church, Swedenborgians website makes no mention of a Manchester congregation.

They are not a group I know anything about, but from the website appear inoffensive!

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I used to live round the corner from The True Jesus Church.. It seems to have originated in the far east - Pentecostal with seventh-day observance and holding foot washing to be a sacrament.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Googling around recently I came across the Orange Street Congregational Church which seems a rather curious body. I am not sure from its website if it is part of a bigger group. If I read it rightly it seems to have British Israelite connections.

The True Jesus Church seems fascinating, a little like seventh day Adventists. I do believe there is a small seventh day baptist denomination in the Uk, a remnant of old dissent, but I've not come across any of their churches.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
The last Muggletonian died in 1979. As they didn't hold with evangelism, that was a possibly foreseeable outcome. OTOH, since they didn't/don't hold with religious activities per se, they may still be invisibly extant.

Celibacy similarly can be seen as foredooming the Shakers.

But I see The Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion is still extant.

Thank you!! We drive past one of her chapel's on the way to the in-laws and I've always wondered about them. Now I know.

Tubbs

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

On holiday near Blackpool a few years ago I remember going into that great northern town and coming across a church which described itself as

Independant Methodist.

It seems this is a small denomination. Mainly found up north.

Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In John Dalton Street in Manchester Uk there is New Church House.

Are they Swedenborgians? I ask because the New Church, Swedenborgians website makes no mention of a Manchester congregation.

They are not a group I know anything about, but from the website appear inoffensive!

When I last looked into the topic there were at least three branches of the New Church, all of whom follow Emanuel Swedenborg's teachings. They're all small, but I believe the one based in Pennsylvania is growing in number.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I used to live round the corner from The True Jesus Church.. It seems to have originated in the far east - Pentecostal with seventh-day observance and holding foot washing to be a sacrament.

There is a meeting house of the True Jesus Church in the Sydney suburb of Parramatta, not far from where Madame bought her car. We've not been in, but the exterior is best described as Edwardian Greek.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

There is a New Church in Roseville on Sydney's North Shore. They list eight Australian locations and one in NZ.

I think the New Apostolic Church was mentioned further up. There are about a dozen in Australia. The Sydney Church is in Lane Cove and has been there for very many years. Only their apostles can confirm the gift of the Spirit.

[ 16. August 2012, 03:56: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In John Dalton Street in Manchester Uk there is New Church House.

Are they Swedenborgians? I ask because the New Church, Swedenborgians website makes no mention of a Manchester congregation.

They are not a group I know anything about, but from the website appear inoffensive!
When I last looked into the topic there were at least three branches of the New Church, all of whom follow Emanuel Swedenborg's teachings. They're all small, but I believe the one based in Pennsylvania is growing in number.

I'm pretty sure the New Church House in John Dalton Street is Swedenborgian and is connected with the branch of the New Church based in the U.K. There are at least three other independent branches based in the U.S., of which two are based in the tiny borough of Bryn Athyn, Pennsylvania just north of Philadelphia. Of these two, I believe the General Church of the New Jerusalem is by far the largest world-wide and is the branch to which Freddy and I belong, and yes it is growing, especially in Africa and the Far East. There are also several national organizations affiliated with this branch, including ones in Australia (which Lothlorien mentioned) and Canada. However, all branches combined still constitute a very small denomination, numbering in the tens of thousands (perhaps as many as hundreds of thousands).

There are also several non-church organizations devoted to Swedenborg's work, including the Swedenborg Foundation which publishes his books and related material. Their site includes a page of links which includes all of the organizations related to Swedenborg's work that I'm aware of. Apparently, the U.K. branch does not yet have its own website.

As for being inoffensive, uh ... er ..., I like to think so! [Yipee]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Apparently the last Sandemanian (or Glasite) congregation in the UK was located in London in the 80s, and it closed during that decade. The church is also defunct in the USA. Michael Faraday, the famous physicist, was a Sandemanian.

The Seventh Day Baptists were founded in England in the 1600s. The first congregation, Mill Yard Church, was already very low on members in the early 19th c., but the Mill Yard story is interesting for what it contributes to the discussion of gender equality in the church. There are now only two Seventh Day Baptist congregations in England, according to Wiki. One of them is in my city. It probably grew out of American or American-influenced missions in the West Indies, and was then set up here by West Indian immigrants.

Small denominations have often had a great deal of influence on the mainstream, bringing new ideas and fresh enthusiasm to the life of the church and the country. Christianity would be much weaker without them.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

When I was teaching, there was a period when the local congregation of the Apostolic Fellowship met in our buildings. They are an offshoot of the Christadelphians, and have three congregations in Britain, Nottingham, Dartford, and a recent addition, Eton.

They give public lectures on Sunday evenings, with a bookstall, and I was once able to look at this in the afternoon. There was a history of the denomination, a succession of schisms, one of which, if I recall correctly, concerned the wearing of hats by women. (Ours did.)

On one occasion, a Sunday School workbook was left in my classroom - they specialised in one to one adult and child teaching - and it went into intense detail in analysing the meaning of every word in the part of the OT they were studying in a way I've never come across anywhere else. I can't remember an actual example, but a quick glance in Kings suggests the sort of thing- the number of eunuchs involved in the throwing down of Jezebel would be significant, that it was not one, or four. And not significant because of the practicality.

There was also a self published book about on Soloman's Temple and the meaning of every little detail of that.

They were nice people, and never caused any problems with demands for the modification of teaching of their offspring as others did. But odd. And I don't think the public ever attended the lectures.

[ 16. August 2012, 12:04: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Penny S

I suppose if they weren't 'odd' they wouldn't be members of a small denomination. That stands to reason. But I think most religious people are a bit odd to those who are outside their particular religious group. I find aspects of Anglican church culture a bit strange to me, and of course, Anglicans come in several different types, so that means there are more things for me to find strange!

And we're all a bit odd to those people who have no religious affiliations.

[ 16. August 2012, 12:48: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

I find all this very interesting and Svitlane V2 makes a good point. These churches often have an influence on the world of belief far greater than their size. Look at the Quakers today.

Some of course do not. They are the ones who are more sect minded, mor exclusive than others.

Many of the groups we've mentioned so far are biblically based groups. Do any more esoteric churches, on the edge of Christinaity, as it were, still exist. I know there were not ever many, but I wonder if there is a remnant.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
These churches often have an influence on the world of belief far greater than their size. Look at the Quakers today.

Some of course do not. They are the ones who are more sect minded, mor exclusive than others.

I agree with you about the social influence of the Quakers, of course, but I'm not sure about your last comment. The Pentostals could be described as exclusive and sectarian, yet they've had an enormous influence on mainstream Christianity, by the sheer number of new denominations created, and also via the charismatic movement that spread into existing denominations. Pentecostalism has been described as John Wesley's grandchild, thus propelling some of his ideas into the modern world while mainstream Methodism has often run out of steam. Ecumenically, even the non-charismatic mainstream now feels obliged to make overtures of friendship to Pentecostal churches, in recognition of their increasing presence in our cities, and their dynamism.

quote:

Many of the groups we've mentioned so far are biblically based groups. Do any more esoteric churches, on the edge of Christinaity, as it were, still exist. I know there were not ever many, but I wonder if there is a remnant.

The Unitarians still exist, of course. They've always been small, but they've had influence. They've moved further away from Christianity over time.

Apparently, there are still a tiny number of Branch Davidians left. We all hope they've not been too influential, but it should be remembered that they were a breakaway from the Seventh Day Adventists, now a large worldwide denominatination that wasn't deemed to be truly Christian until the 20th c., and that descended from the Millerites, a small group who themselves probably no longer exist.

There must be lots of schisms and offshoots that either flourish, remain marginal or completely disappear. And as with the Millerites and the SDA's, even small movements can give birth to something that grows much bigger than the parent body.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

There is in the US one remaining community of the Shakers (The United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing, officially) -- Sabbathday Lake. As of 2009 there were 6 members, IIRC.
This is down from a high point of some 6000 members in 20 communities in the mid-19th cent.

Celibacy and the attraction of the cities and government rules about adoptions led to the gradual decline.

The Wikipedia article seems to be mostly accurate, as far as I can determine.

So far as I know, there are no longer any Shakers in the UK.

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

And I thought this thread was going to be a survival guide ...

[Ultra confused]

Posted by OhSimone (# 16414) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Many of the groups we've mentioned so far are biblically based groups. Do any more esoteric churches, on the edge of Christinaity, as it were, still exist. I know there were not ever many, but I wonder if there is a remnant.

We have a Christian Community church just up the road from us - I think it'd be fair to describe them as well towards the edge of Christianity. It's proving difficult to find an estimate on Adherents.com.

There's also a Steiner school close by. We must be the anthroposophical hub of the West Midlands.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

I attended The Latter Rain Outpouring Revival Church a few times when I was working in London in the 1970's. They met in the East End (Islington?) and their pastor was Olive ? I vaguely remember that there were US connections and networks in UK, although probably not formal links with any other congregation.
I do not think they were / are associated with a similar church in South London.
One of their members was Revd Basil Meade, he of the London Community Gospel Choir.
Are any of these people still around? I often wonder about Basil Meade's current church connection.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

Many of the groups we've mentioned so far are biblically based groups. Do any more esoteric churches, on the edge of Christinaity, as it were, still exist. I know there were not ever many, but I wonder if there is a remnant.

You mean Pocomania or the Spiritual Baptists? I attended worship with each of them many years ago in the Caribbean. Say no more - I wish I'd been MWing in those days. [Eek!]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Sparrow: And I thought this thread was going to be a survival guide ...

Stay close to the door.

quote:
Percy B: When I look at church history especially in the UK, I am often surprised by the number of different small sects / denominations that there are / were.

In Brazil, there's a lot. One of my favourites is a small wooden shack in a favela where we have a project. On a hand-painted sign it says: "Universal Church of the Wrath of the Fiery Throne. Worldwide Headquarters."

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I have a book on Sussex dialect (currently out of reach somewhere) which includes a reference to a group known as the Cokellers, a temperance-biassed sect which only drank cocoa. I suspect Cokeller was not their own name for themselves.

I have an impression that there was a period which spawned a lot of offshoots of various chapels, as people found problems with the one they worshipped in - you know the jokes about marooned people and chapels or synagogues they don't attend. A branch of my family was connected with building a small chapel at Halland in Sussex in some way. I think it is still functioning.

Annually, I take tea in Michael Church in Brixton, a Swedenborg connected church, when they are open in connection with a function at the Lambeth Archives over the road. It's an interesting building.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

I have a soft spot for slightly eccentric Christian sects. My husband used to known someone who grew up amongst the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists, a tiny sect so Calvinist that they refuse to undertake any evangelism at all. They take their name from a magazine (here) so wonderfully old-fashioned that even the contemporary articles sound like they were written in 1815.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
On holiday near Blackpool a few years ago I remember going into that great northern town and coming across a church which described itself as

Independant Methodist.

It seems this is a small denomination. Mainly found up north.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that a group of Independent Methodist churches in the north-west had recently opted to join the Baptist Union. IIRC they had gradually moved in a credobaptist and congregationalist direction over time. I don't know much about their origins though. I'm presuming they were just Methodist congregations who opted out of the various mergers which created the current Methodist Church. In the US Savannah, Georgia has a very impressive Independent Presbyterian Church in the old centre (oxymoron surely?)

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I have a soft spot for slightly eccentric Christian sects. My husband used to known someone who grew up amongst the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists, a tiny sect so Calvinist that they refuse to undertake any evangelism at all. They take their name from a magazine (here) so wonderfully old-fashioned that even the contemporary articles sound like they were written in 1815.

My sources say this is positively fervent in its evangelistic zeal compared to some other strict baptists. My father-in-law, who once pastored what I think was a Gospel Standard church in Lancashire (and who did evangelise), once went to another local church - that worshipped behind locked doors to ensure no unelect got inside. When he knocked and asked to come in, they said "eeh my, we'll have to ask the pastor" (he did eventually get in).

[ 17. August 2012, 21:16: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
And I thought this thread was going to be a survival guide ...

But smallness is risky. Large or growing institutions can withstand schism, or people growing indifferent and drifting away; they might even prefer to lose troublemakers. But small groups can easily lose critical mass, and end up fizzling out. They're more susceptible to changes in the surrounding culture, demographic patterns, etc.

Martyn Percy's book 'Clergy: The Origin of Species' takes the trajectory of the Independent Methodists and uses it as a way of illuminating the state of the parent body, the British Methodist Church in relation to the CofE. His basic point is that it's better for a small body with a purifying mission to remain within a larger body rather than trying to go it alone, where it's doomed to experience the same problems as its parent, but with less chance of success. We might not entirely agree, but it's instructive to consider the risks that small religious groups face. They don't survive easily.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I can't believe I'm the first to mention the newly-discovered

quote:
anfgli8can

denomination, which PeteC describes here as

quote:
a new sect which now has two members

Surely a contender for the official Ship denomination?

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

How is this for small, the Inghamites.

Jengie

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Fascinating Jengie. Only two remain of these Inghamites. I wonder what is / was distinctive about them.

From a quick google they seem now to be simply independent evangelicals, and have so perhaps lost what was distinctive about them.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

There is slightly more on them at Cumbria County Council website. A mix between Methodist, Moravians and Sandemanians, sounds interesting to say the least.

I wonder what sort of soup they served?

Jengie

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Talking of Moravians Jengie, they themselves are a small denomination in the UK. I am not actually sure how many churches, but I think historically they were found in some areas where German migrant workers settled.

Similarly, I guess, we may have , or may be we have it already, a phenomenon of new Europe immigrants brink gong their home denominations with them.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

I think they are about the same size as the Lutherans are in the UK. They have a website and mainly train at the Northern College URC and Congregational in Manchester.

Their route here can be very complex, for instance they participate in this LEP but the Moravians who belong there are from the Caribbean rather than from Europe. My supervisors other doctoral student is an American Moravian but based on a Caribbean Island. So my experience is that I keep on coming across them despite their small size.

Jengie

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

The distribution map on the UK Moravian website is interesting. I had thought they had gone to mining communities, and maybe they have to a degree - but it looks like coal mining. There are none in Cornwall, for example. But nor are there any In south Wales.

I do know there used to be a congregation in Crook in County Durham.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

In Birmingham there is a joint Moravian/URC congregation. I think its members are mostly West Indian, or else mixed. Until a few years ago they had their own church, but are now sharing with a local Methodist congregation, and in the future they may enter into an LEP with the Methodists. Their minister occasionally preached at my own Methodist church. He seemed proud that the Moravian and URC elements in his congregation were more or less indistinguishable.

[ 24. August 2012, 23:44: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

In India I worked with a colleague who shamefacedly admitted to having grown up in the Essex Peculiar people, or Plumstead Peculiars.

I understand they have since adopted much blander nomenclature - pity!

One of my favourites is the Cooneyites, a name given to them by outsiders, because they not only claim to be nameless, but have have no buildings or literature.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Back in the 1970s I sometimes worshipped with a Pentecostal Group called the "Bible Pattern" church. This was a group formed by "Pastor" George Jeffery in the ?1940s when he broke away from Elim over the issue of British Israelitism (and, probably, who was boss!) This church seemed entirely orthodox from a doctrinal point of view - indeed they sacked a minister because he was a"Jesus Only" man and not sufficiently Trinitarian.

On our honeymoon in St. Ives (Cornwall) in 1982 we worshipped with the Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion.

[ 25. August 2012, 07:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:

quote:
On holiday near Blackpool a few years ago I remember going into that great northern town and coming across a church which described itself as

Independant Methodist.

It seems this is a small denomination. Mainly found up north.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that a group of Independent Methodist churches in the north-west had recently opted to join the Baptist Union. IIRC they had gradually moved in a credobaptist and congregationalist direction over time. I don't know much about their origins though. I'm presuming they were just Methodist congregations who opted out of the various mergers which created the current Methodist Church. In the US Savannah, Georgia has a very impressive Independent Presbyterian Church in the old centre (oxymoron surely?)

Do you mean Free Methodist?

There are quite a few in Lancashire and the surrounding area, which were historically on the evangelical or charismatic side of English methodism. They joined us with a US-based led FMC with apostolic oversight from bishops, but are mostly credobaptist.

Posted by Clodsley Shovel (# 16662) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I have a soft spot for slightly eccentric Christian sects. My husband used to known someone who grew up amongst the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists, a tiny sect so Calvinist that they refuse to undertake any evangelism at all.

I can confirm that although declining this outpost of all things 1850 still exists, as large parts of my wider family are still involved with it, my brother recently got married at one of their bigger churches in Luton, a service best described as 'dignified'!

Generally if a church becomes too 'evangelical' and horror of horrors starts attracting new members/putting on sermons that are mildly interesting they are 'delisted' a strategy so herocially suicidal in terms of future prospects you cant help but perversely admire it.

Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :

My late father used to dismiss JW's by telling them he was a Calathumpian . Seems there's quite a few of 'em.

Posted by Diomedes (# 13482) on :

For many years we had neighbours (3 elderly ladies) who were members of 'The Peculiar People'

Th PP were originally an Wesleyan offshoot founded near here, in Rochford (Essex), in the 1830s. They became particularly newsworthy at the time of the Diphtheria outbreak in 1910. Their policy of rejecting medical care from doctors or hospitals was widely reported in the local press. The organisation split into 'The Old Peculiars' who still refused medical treatment and 'The New Peculiars' who took a more moderate stance. Both branches were Conscientious Objectors as far as I know. There are still active PP chapels, mainly in Essex and East London.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I have a soft spot for slightly eccentric Christian sects. My husband used to known someone who grew up amongst the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists, a tiny sect so Calvinist that they refuse to undertake any evangelism at all.
I can confirm that although declining this outpost of all things 1850 still exists, as large parts of my wider family are still involved with it, my brother recently got married at one of their bigger churches in Luton, a service best described as 'dignified'!

Generally if a church becomes too 'evangelical' and horror of horrors starts attracting new members/putting on sermons that are mildly interesting they are 'delisted' a strategy so herocially suicidal in terms of future prospects you cant help but perversely admire it.

A 'soft spot'? Well, I suppose such tiny groups are often quiet and self-absorbed enough to be unthreatening, which is isn't the case for so many more infamous denominations and sects today.

I can imagine that our wider society, with its fear of 'brainwashing', would be quite happy with a church that refused to evanglise.... Many people probably wish that all churches were like that!

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Actually the interesting thing is the more extreme Presbyterians in Scotland have much the same sort of attitude. I once characterised it as they saw no need for publicity, such things as noticeboards are heretical. If the Lord was calling someone to be among the elect they would know the time of service and the whereabouts of the building by divine inspiration.

The thing is if anything they are slightly growing.

I once detected one of their churches, it was a combination of the symbol on the ordnance survey map and the time the cars turned up that gave the game away. Given that they are also pretty strict Sabbatarians the use of cars must have been a concession to the distance some of them had to travel.

Jengie

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

There was a sizeable immigration of Moravians to the US in 18-19th centuries, many to mining areas in Pennsylvania. IIRC, their church was/became known as Unitas Fratrum, or commonly as the Bohemian Brethren.
They became notable for their splendid choral tradition and for the excellence of the organs built for their churches (Tannenburg, etc.)
The present-day Moravian Foundation is centered in Winston-Salem, NC, their 'mother church' being the Home Church in Old Salem.
(I apologize if some of that is inaccurate, I'm quoting from memory.)
A colleague who had worked their said that their 'love feasts' and their early Easter morning 'tower music' were particularly memorable.
Wikipedia indicates that while they are not a large denomination, they are not exactly small, compared to some of the others mentioned above.

BTW, at least in the southern US, 'Independent Presbyterian' means affiliation with no synod, an important distinction given Presbyterian US history.

Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on :

quote:
Originally posted by OhSimone:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Many of the groups we've mentioned so far are biblically based groups. Do any more esoteric churches, on the edge of Christinaity, as it were, still exist. I know there were not ever many, but I wonder if there is a remnant.
We have a Christian Community church just up the road from us - I think it'd be fair to describe them as well towards the edge of Christianity. It's proving difficult to find an estimate on Adherents.com.

There's also a Steiner school close by. We must be the anthroposophical hub of the West Midlands.

Some friends of mine who are mad keen (I use that word advisedly) on all things Steiner send their children to a Christian Community church in Stroud (also near a Steiner school). I notice they don't go themselves, however. From the literature they showed me it seems to have a fairly tangential relationship to Christianity.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually the interesting thing is the more extreme Presbyterians in Scotland have much the same sort of attitude. I once characterised it as they saw no need for publicity, such things as noticeboards are heretical. If the Lord was calling someone to be among the elect they would know the time of service and the whereabouts of the building by divine inspiration.

The thing is if anything they are slightly growing.

I once detected one of their churches, it was a combination of the symbol on the ordnance survey map and the time the cars turned up that gave the game away. Given that they are also pretty strict Sabbatarians the use of cars must have been a concession to the distance some of them had to travel.

Jengie

Very interesting! Are they independent churches or do they group together in a denomination? I guess it's too much to ask if they have a website, after all that would be advertising [Smile]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

They are Presbyterian, they are grouped into several denominations, often very tiny, but I suspect there is at least half a dozen of them around the place. They fracture and merge at a speed I can not keep up with not being in Scotland but they at least to some extent have not decreased as rapidly as mainstream denominations. Indeed there rate of decrease may be more closely allied with the ongoing depopulations of the areas where they are strongest.

Jengie

Posted by Clodsley Shovel (# 16662) on :

The fact they tend to breed fairly prolifically also helps keep the numbers up [Biased]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel:
The fact they tend to breed fairly prolifically also helps keep the numbers up

That can't be the case for small church movements, or else they wouldn't be small. Also, if they're strict and expect their children to marry people who share the same beliefs, this must become increasingly difficult in a small or declining movement. People either marry out, which means their children probably aren't socialised into the movement and so don't join as adults, or else they simply don't marry at all.

It's often said that religious people have more children, but in some places that must be undermined by the difficulty of finding a spouse who shares the same, or similar, religious beliefs.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

The result of breeding in our small presbyterian family ended with one agnositic married to an agnositic with two children who have never been to a church, one gay Catholic and one humanist. Not sure that's going to increase the membership by much.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:

quote:
On holiday near Blackpool a few years ago I remember going into that great northern town and coming across a church which described itself as

Independant Methodist.

It seems this is a small denomination. Mainly found up north.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that a group of Independent Methodist churches in the north-west had recently opted to join the Baptist Union. IIRC they had gradually moved in a credobaptist and congregationalist direction over time. I don't know much about their origins though. I'm presuming they were just Methodist congregations who opted out of the various mergers which created the current Methodist Church. In the US Savannah, Georgia has a very impressive Independent Presbyterian Church in the old centre (oxymoron surely?)
Do you mean Free Methodist?

There are quite a few in Lancashire and the surrounding area, which were historically on the evangelical or charismatic side of English methodism. They joined us with a US-based led FMC with apostolic oversight from bishops, but are mostly credobaptist.

The Freem's are numerous enough in Canada. They get their name not from being "free" of oversight but from the fact that they forbade pew rents, hence their churches were "free". The other Methodist churches in Canada used the practice of pew rents extensively. Any church that has pews with numbered tags on the back is set up for the practice.

In the 1870's there were five Methodist streams in Canada, the Wesleyan Methodists, the Methodist Episcopals, the Primitive Methodists, the Bible Christians and the Free Methodists. The first four merged to form the Methodist Church of Canada in 1885 and merged again to form the United Church of Canada in 1925. The Freems stayed out of both mergers. They had hopes the United Church merger would boost their numbers but it didn't.

There is a US-based church which now goes by the name Wesleyan Methodist Church with churches in Canada. I call copyright infringement, that is the name of one of the United Church's parents and former Wesleyan Methodist congregations are a dime a dozen in this part of Ontario.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

In the 1870's there were five Methodist streams in Canada, the Wesleyan Methodists, the Methodist Episcopals, the Primitive Methodists, the Bible Christians and the Free Methodists. The first four merged to form the Methodist Church of Canada in 1885 and merged again to form the United Church of Canada in 1925. The Freems stayed out of both mergers. They had hopes the United Church merger would boost their numbers but it didn't.

That's interesting. Is there any sign that the Canadian 'Freems' are now looking to merge with another institution as a way of boosting their numbers? Since Canada obviously has a long tradition of ecumenicalism, is there any advantage for them in remaining small and independent?

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
For example the Catholic Apostolic church has gone.

The Catholic Apostolic Church in Maida Avenue, London still has a service every Sunday morning.

I remember the death of the last Muggletonian in 1979. Everyone thought the sect had died out centuries before until his books and papers were donated to the British Library.

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Apparently the last Sandemanian (or Glasite) congregation in the UK was located in London in the 80s, and it closed during that decade.

Sandeman and Glas taught at Ediburgh in the late 18th Century. Alexander Campbell studied under them and was strongly influenced by their ideas, which still echo in the practices and beliefs of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)

Posted by argona (# 14037) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
I remember the death of the last Muggletonian in 1979. Everyone thought the sect had died out centuries before until his books and papers were donated to the British Library.

That would be Phil Noakes, a distant relative of mine. The last Muggletonian I know of was my mother (died 2001). There was also my grandmother (died 1985). But yes, most people thought the sect was extinct, hence the excitement when the Muggletonian library was found in Phil Noakes' possession on his death. There was eventually a Timewatch about it and though she wasn't mentioned, it was clear they knew about my mother.

I don't know much about their faith. Muggletonians of my family were fiercely anti-clerical, and wouldn't evangelise. They would simply offer people things to read, which they either believed (and were saved) or not (and weren't). They believed that this would determine whether you were of the good seed (Adam's) or the bad seed (Eve's, of course!) When I was eventually given some reading matter, age about 12 I think, each item began with a curse, damning eternally anyone who read further and didn't believe. Immediate panic on my part, until I thought, if I don't believe it, I don't believe that curse either. I read a couple of pages then left the books on the sideboard without comment, and nothing was ever said again.

One day, I'll take a look at that library!

Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :

There is a Moravian church near here. Its congregation settled in 1750 and the original church and school still function. It looks quite busy and the website is quite interesting.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Yes that Moravian church does seem alive and well. How interesting.

I see on the website that the minister lives at 'the settlement' and I have come across that term before in relation to them. I take it to me a group of them lived in neighbouring houses?

By the way isn't the Muggletonian info so interesting!

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Not quite have a look at the on I am more familiar with Fairfield, it involved separate men's and women's houses for instance for single people and further info

Jengie

[ 06. September 2012, 09:52: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Thank you to pointing to that very interesting link Jengie. I enjoyed reading about the Fairfield settlement.

It was fascinating to think of a quite small self contained residential area of a small denomination. It must have helped provide continuity in the denomination.

It made me wonder if the phenomenon is found in other ways in England. I know the Amish in the US for example, but what of the UK.

RCs in the nineteenth century often lived close together, and many Muslims do now.

I will need to research as to whether though something more settlement like was found among other denominations.

Does anyone have any ideas? [Smile]

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
For example the Catholic Apostolic church has gone.

The Catholic Apostolic Church in Maida Avenue, London still has a service every Sunday morning.

For those who weren't here in 2004.

...and that would include me, but I had a vague memory of someone linking to this thread before, so when it turned up on a google search I thought I would share it.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Independent Methodists in the UK

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Yesterday I was on a bus that drove past a small, well-kept church that described itself as 'Liberal Catholic'. I've never seen one of those before.

[ 16. September 2012, 12:05: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Yesterday I was on a bus that drove past a small, well-kept church that described itself as 'Liberal Catholic'. I've never seen one of those before.

A "liberal catholic church" was mentioned on BBC Radio 3 last week, in a programme about John Cage. They played a recording of him saying this:

quote:

During my last year in high school, I found out about the Liberal Catholic Church. It was in a beautiful spot in the Hollywood hills.

The ceremony was an anthology of the most theatrical bits and pieces found in the principal rituals, Occidental and Oriental. There were clouds of incense, candles galore, processions in and around the church.

I was fascinated, and though I had been raised in the Methodist Episcopal Church and had had thoughts of going into the ministry, I decided to join the Liberal Catholics. Mother and Dad objected strenuously. Ultimately, when I told them of my intention to become an acolyte active in the Mass, they said, "Well, make up your mind. It's us or the church."

Thinking along the lines of "Leave your father and mother and follow Me" I went to the priest, told him what had happened, and said I'd decided in favor of the Liberal Catholics.

He said, "Don't be a fool. Go home. There are many religions. You have only one mother and father."

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Basically, or at least originally, Theosophists, I think.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Basically, or at least originally, Theosophists, I think.

Yep, that's pretty much it. There's one in Bideford where the priest doubles as a Consultant Psychiatrist at the District Hospital. See http://www.lccgrail.org/

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

The Liberal Catholic Church seems to be fragmented, and rather difficult to track down.

The Website of the LCC international province of GB mentions an archbishop - Most Revd E B Stuart, but no cathedral, or for that matter no churches. A bit of a puzzle.

It's also a shame too. What it stands for seems very good - Mystical, inclusive, intellectual, open, joyous. Sounds good to me [Smile]

But it doesn't seem to have members!

Posted by sandemanian1 (# 17345) on :

The last Sandemanian or in Scotland Glasite Meeting House closed in 19089 when the caretaker retired. The last elder welcomed the few remaining people to services inn his home. He died in 1999, and there may be a few very old members still living. This was a small movement with extraordinary longevity--1730-1999!

Posted by poileplume (# 16438) on :

We rent out our Anglican church after our service to l’Église Chrétienne Catholique Traditionnelle. They appear to have around twenty members in Canada.

Services conducted each Sunday by the Archbishop and the Bishop. They are most charming and sincere. Seem to be centred on the Tridentine mass in Latin but not hard line like the Society of Pius X. Nice people - do very good business in weddings!

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

Welcome, sandemanian1! We're glad to have you join us here in Heaven for your first post. You can be sure of an especially warm welcome here, if you would like to say hello there.

jedijudy
One of the Welcoming Heaven Hosts

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

There is a Liberal Catholic Church at Gordon - 3 suburbs and about 6 km close to the city than home. They seem to be settled into their own building, and have a full programme of services.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

quote:
Originally posted by argona:
That would be Phil Noakes, a distant relative of mine. The last Muggletonian I know of was my mother (died 2001). There was also my grandmother (died 1985). But yes, most people thought the sect was extinct, hence the excitement when the Muggletonian library was found in Phil Noakes' possession on his death. There was eventually a Timewatch about it and though she wasn't mentioned, it was clear they knew about my mother.

I don't know much about their faith. Muggletonians of my family were fiercely anti-clerical, and wouldn't evangelise. They would simply offer people things to read, which they either believed (and were saved) or not (and weren't). They believed that this would determine whether you were of the good seed (Adam's) or the bad seed (Eve's, of course!) When I was eventually given some reading matter, age about 12 I think, each item began with a curse, damning eternally anyone who read further and didn't believe. Immediate panic on my part, until I thought, if I don't believe it, I don't believe that curse either. I read a couple of pages then left the books on the sideboard without comment, and nothing was ever said again.

One day, I'll take a look at that library!

How bizarre - and interesting - that your own mother didn't tell you about her faith. Hard to get my brain around that one.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
The last Muggletonian died in 1979. As they didn't hold with evangelism, that was a possibly foreseeable outcome.

Oh I don't know. The good ol' CofE is still here [Biased]

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by poileplume:
We rent out our Anglican church after our service to l’Église Chrétienne Catholique Traditionnelle. They appear to have around twenty members in Canada.

Services conducted each Sunday by the Archbishop and the Bishop. They are most charming and sincere. Seem to be centred on the Tridentine mass in Latin but not hard line like the Society of Pius X. Nice people - do very good business in weddings!

I don't know whether that's the same lot, but the Primate (world-wide) of the Catholic CHurch - Tridentine RIte (I believe that's its name) hangs his zuchetto in an Anglican CHurch in London, Ontario. A friend of mine was until recently the rector there, and he tells me that the group's rites are in Latin, with all the smoke and bells. The said primate is constantly ordaining new bishops to send into mission fields -- apparently the church is expanding wildly in parts of Africa and Latin America.

The said Primate reproached me gravely (but with a twinkle in his eye) for not serving him the chalice at a recent Anglican celebration of the eucharist in the church -- he was there "in choro". I was misled by the outfit, and didn't see him offered the bread, so passed him by. I have since been told that if he is present at an Anglican mass, he does communicate in both kinds.

John

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

John, would that be the Old Roman Catholic Church - Latin Rite? If so, I think they might be in full communion with the Anglican communion..

[ 25. September 2012, 19:16: Message edited by: the long ranger ]

Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The distribution map on the UK Moravian website is interesting. I had thought they had gone to mining communities, and maybe they have to a degree - but it looks like coal mining. There are none in Cornwall, for example. But nor are there any In south Wales.

I do know there used to be a congregation in Crook in County Durham.

Moravian congregations are rather thick on the ground in here in S.E. Minnesota. There are 8 Moravian churches within no more than 10 to 30 minutes from me. It is odd to me to think of them as a small denomination!

Posted by Godric (# 17135) on :

I came across " The Old Catholic Church - Province of The United States" web page and wondered if this is an American version of the smaller denomination under consideration?

Godric [Overused]

I write on funerals and burials at http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/

Posted by poileplume (# 16438) on :

The quick answer to Godrick at al. is that l’Église Chrétienne Catholique Traditionnelle does not appear to be related to anyone else except some obscure connection in the Congo.

Their web site gives a very convoluted history about a bishop fleeing from communist Hungary to Quebec.

What I have been told is that there are Old Catholics and Old Catholics. One group has intercommunion with the Anglican Church the other does not.

The ‘one that does not’ group apparently is composed of a series of splinter catholic churches. Apparently someone and sometime ordained a lot of priests, bishops etc. and thereby created all these splinter catholic churches.

Sorry to be vague and also please correct me if I am wrong, just passing on what I was told.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
John, would that be the Old Roman Catholic Church - Latin Rite? If so, I think they might be in full communion with the Anglican communion..

That's them -- and the Primate certainly is in full communion with us.

John

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

I should have added -- this lot are not at all associated with any of the "Old Catholic" groups that are running around Canada. The last time I looked (but it was a long time ago) the Anglican CHurch is in communion with an "Old Catholic CHurch", which I take to be one with ties to Utrecht. There are apparently other groups which use the name. And I have a memory, which may well be wrong, that we are also in communion with a "Polish National Catholic CHurch".

I'm sure Augustine will be along shortly to correct any of my erros.

John

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

In the 1870's there were five Methodist streams in Canada, the Wesleyan Methodists, the Methodist Episcopals, the Primitive Methodists, the Bible Christians and the Free Methodists. The first four merged to form the Methodist Church of Canada in 1885 and merged again to form the United Church of Canada in 1925. The Freems stayed out of both mergers. They had hopes the United Church merger would boost their numbers but it didn't.

That's interesting. Is there any sign that the Canadian 'Freems' are now looking to merge with another institution as a way of boosting their numbers? Since Canada obviously has a long tradition of ecumenicalism, is there any advantage for them in remaining small and independent?

Sorry, left that hanging. In short, no. The Freem's have a solid connection with their direct counterpart, the Freem's in the US. They aren't merging with anybody.

Posted by Light User (# 14254) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
There are, apparently, two surviving members of the Panacea society - thus says their website. I would describe them as charmingly barking, and well worth reading up (and were you aware that the second coming would be in Bedford?)

AG

Strangely enough, three days after you posted that, the death of Ruth Klein, the last surviving member of the Pancea Society, was announced.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
How bizarre - and interesting - that your own [Muggletonian] mother didn't tell you about her faith. Hard to get my brain around that one.

I've read that for several decades, one of the reasons for church decline is that many Christian parents have become reluctant to talk to their children about their faith, for fear of trying to influence them instead of letting them make up their own minds. It's also a sign of the extreme privatisation of faith. The Muggletonian position is perhaps a very early and formalised version of this tendency....

[ 29. September 2012, 21:03: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
were you aware that the second coming would be in Bedford?

A stream of eschatological parochialism runs throughout Christian history, from the Montanists' choice for the Second Coming of a little town in the backblocks of Turkey, to George Fox's "Woe to the bloody city of Lichfield!", to the theory of some Australians that God sent the 1974 cyclone on Darwin because of its unique wickedness and its sharing of a name with the proto-evolutionist.

I have to admit that I also find difficult the dominical curses on Bethsaida and Capernaum.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

'The Church of the Lord Jesus - Pentecostal Signs Following' is to be found in rather isolated communities in West Virginia, and in eastern Kentucky and Tennessee.

Their distinctive mark is the literal interpretation of Mark 16:17-18. The handling of poisonous snakes and (more rarely) the drinking of poison is a feature of their worship. As such practices are usually illegal in most ocmmunities, these churches are usually small and in rural areas.

The recent death of a 'Signs Following' minister following his being bitten by a rattlesnake during worship was documented in a photo essay the fall issue of 'Northwestern.'

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

I find this a very interesting thread - but then I would - I started it!

I have been reading through the posts and it makes, for me very interesting reading. What is interesting is how some of these small groups of Christians preserve their identity in the face of a rapidly changing world.

As I was thinking about it I remember hearing Orthodoxy has similar groups too - not surprisingly its probably a feature of faiths.

I seem to recall a group called the Milk drinkers, as a small Orthodox group, but can't yet find them throu our friend Google.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
... to George Fox's "Woe to the bloody city of Lichfield!", to the theory of some Australians that God sent the 1974 cyclone on Darwin because of its unique wickedness and its sharing of a name with the proto-evolutionist ...

... slightly worrying, in that I live in the sub-suburban 'city of lichfield' in the wider city of Darwin [Paranoid]

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

This is a fascinating thread. Regarding the Shakers dying out due to celibacy, don't the Jesus Army encourage (I don't think they enforce) celibacy? Yet they are not short of members, and judging by the presence of a young female member of my uni's Christian Union being one, they have plenty of youth presence.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

But I wonder how long people stay in the JA for? If it has quite a turnover of members then celibacy and maintaining a roughly level membership need not be in tension with one another.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

I hadn't realised the Jesus Army still existed, I'd not heard about them recently so in a sense they maybe are a surviving small Christian denomination, even though I'd originally thought of groups that had been around for 50 years or more.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Definitely Jesus Army is still going, doing better than the Methodists in this area. They have taken over the former Methodist Church and turned it into a community centre.

Jengie

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I hadn't realised the Jesus Army still existed, I'd not heard about them recently so in a sense they maybe are a surviving small Christian denomination, even though I'd originally thought of groups that had been around for 50 years or more.

If you had been around a few years ago, you could not have avoided hearing about the Church Army.

Moo

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

I guess that's. typo for Jesus Army, Moo.

The Christian Community survives, although when it first came in the UK I am not sure.

I have only been to one of their churches in North Yorkshire, it was a curious and accepting place. In
Deed I am not sure whether or not they have another chur h building in the UK.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I think the Jesus Army were originally Baptist. They may even still be in some way.

Somewhere near Ripley there is alleged to be a separate and minute Quaker Meeting that is committed to true fidelity to George Fox's original Quaker vision. It rejects all Quaker developments since. I suppose one might call them Primitive Quakers.

However, this may be a recent desire to return to the roots, rather than something that has come down unblemished from the C17.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
sent the 1974 cyclone on Darwin because of its unique wickedness

Excuse me ... I resemble that remark [Biased]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I hadn't realised the Jesus Army still existed, I'd not heard about them recently so in a sense they maybe are a surviving small Christian denomination, even though I'd originally thought of groups that had been around for 50 years or more.

A reasonably notorious shippie was/is an member and an advocate thereof

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

1. I think the Jesus Army were originally Baptist.

2.They may even still be in some way.

1. Yes they were - a village baptist church near northampton. Bugbrooke Baptist Church.

2. No they aren't. They left the BUGB many moons ago and are now no longer a congregational governed church but elder governed.

They have a number of community houses in parts of Northants and own a few businesses including (I think) Towcester Building Supplies.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

After the San Francisco earthquake, some people said it was God's judgment on the city for its wickedness. Other people pointed out that churches had been destroyed while bars had not.

There is a funny little poem which unfortunately I cannot locate right now. It asked why, if God had punished San Francisco for being "frisky", He wrecked many churches and "spared O'Brien's whiskey."

Moo

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

1. I think the Jesus Army were originally Baptist.

2.They may even still be in some way.
1. Yes they were - a village baptist church near northampton. Bugbrooke Baptist Church.

2. No they aren't. They left the BUGB many moons ago and are now no longer a congregational governed church but elder governed. (L*R emphasis)

They have a number of community houses in parts of Northants and own a few businesses including (I think) Towcester Building Supplies.

It's hard to be an Army without a chain of command.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

I see from a web search that the Community of Christ still exists in some places, and its been around for a century or so now.

The Sutton in Ashfield church says it was founded in 1905.

It's website seems a little shy of mentioning its links with Mormonism. But maybe that's a bit unfair. Maybe they have detached themselves and become a small independent church.

Posted by deusluxmea (# 15765) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I see from a web search that the Community of Christ still exists in some places, and its been around for a century or so now.

I seem to recall a Community of Christ church around the Ryde area of Sydney. A friend of mine who was into Christian City church was asked to perform for them and got a mighty shock to learn about their Mormon roots.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The Quakers survive and make a special contribution.

Are Quakers rare in the UK? Here in Philadelphia they are quite important.

The prep school belonging to our small Swedenborgian denomination, the Academy of the New Church, is part of the Friends League, all of whose schools are Quaker except ours.

And of course Pennsylvania is known as the Quaker State, with a brand of motor oil named after it, not to mention the oat company.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:

quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
In John Dalton Street in Manchester Uk there is New Church House.

Are they Swedenborgians? I ask because the New Church, Swedenborgians website makes no mention of a Manchester congregation.

They are not a group I know anything about, but from the website appear inoffensive!
When I last looked into the topic there were at least three branches of the New Church, all of whom follow Emanuel Swedenborg's teachings. They're all small, but I believe the one based in Pennsylvania is growing in number.
I'm pretty sure the New Church House in John Dalton Street is Swedenborgian and is connected with the branch of the New Church based in the U.K. There are at least three other independent branches based in the U.S., of which two are based in the tiny borough of Bryn Athyn, Pennsylvania just north of Philadelphia. Of these two, I believe the General Church of the New Jerusalem is by far the largest world-wide and is the branch to which Freddy and I belong, and yes it is growing, especially in Africa and the Far East.

Just to add to this, there has never been a single Swedenborgian church. Swedenborg never had any followers or started any church. He just wrote books. But he was a famous Swedish scientist and member of the Swedish government, so his books became well known.

After his death readers in a number of different countries soon started groups and churches, but most readers remained within whatever denomination they belonged.

The differences between the groups has mainly been that they exist in different countries, but another major difference is the attitude to what he wrote. Some groups see the books as interesting thoughts and ideas, but don't hold to their claim to be a revelation from God. Other groups take every word as divinely revealed.

Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I see from a web search that the Community of Christ still exists in some places, and its been around for a century or so now...

Is that the group that used to be known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? There was one across the street when I was growing up, and later I noticed it had changed its name.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deusluxmea:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I see from a web search that the Community of Christ still exists in some places, and its been around for a century or so now.
I seem to recall a Community of Christ church around the Ryde area of Sydney. A friend of mine who was into Christian City church was asked to perform for them and got a mighty shock to learn about their Mormon roots.

Yes, you're right. A quick check on Google maps shows a church at Drummoyne, a couple of suburbs closer to the city than Ryde. There are 2 others in the Sydney area, one about 75 km north, and another about 250 km further north than that. There may be others interstate.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The Quakers survive and make a special contribution.
Are Quakers rare in the UK? Here in Philadelphia they are quite important.

The prep school belonging to our small Swedenborgian denomination, the Academy of the New Church, is part of the Friends League, all of whose schools are Quaker except ours.

And of course Pennsylvania is known as the Quaker State, with a brand of motor oil named after it, not to mention the oat company.

In the UK Quakers have a strong identity, and a significant historical heritage and influence, but they're relatively few in number now. They seem not to be included in ecumenical gatherings. This is probably because they're no longer identified exclusively with Christianity.
(I've read that American Quakers are more 'orthodox' than British ones in terms of Christian belief, but I don't know how true that is.)

Most British people know of the Quakers not because of their theology, but because of their past contribution to British business and banking, and because of their commitment to social welfare issues. My city, Birmingham, saw the creation of Quaker businesses that are now world famous (e.g. Cadbury's, whose main product is chocolate, and Lloyds Bank), and there are Quaker-founded institutes of adult education. Bourneville in Birmingham is a desirable suburb founded by the Quaker Cadbury family, and it has a distinctive atmosphere and look. But it was never created for the 'Quaker community', but for the employees of Cadbury's, most of whom weren't Quakers.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

There are less than 20,000 Quakers in the UK [Frown]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In the UK Quakers have a strong identity, and a significant historical heritage and influence, but they're relatively few in number now. They seem not to be included in ecumenical gatherings. This is probably because they're no longer identified exclusively with Christianity.
(I've read that American Quakers are more 'orthodox' than British ones in terms of Christian belief, but I don't know how true that is.)

Most British people know of the Quakers not because of their theology, but because of their past contribution to British business and banking, and because of their commitment to social welfare issues. My city, Birmingham, saw the creation of Quaker businesses that are now world famous (e.g. Cadbury's, whose main product is chocolate, and Lloyds Bank), and there are Quaker-founded institutes of adult education. Bourneville in Birmingham is a desirable suburb founded by the Quaker Cadbury family, and it has a distinctive atmosphere and look. But it was never created for the 'Quaker community', but for the employees of Cadbury's, most of whom weren't Quakers.

Although the Quakers are a fairly small denomination, they still have a broad coverage. There are at least four Meeting Houses in this city.

They also run schools with a high reputation.

I understand though that there's a certain amount of tension between those Quakers that are still specifically Christian, and those that would possibly class themselves as benevolent universalists.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

The Religious Society of Friends is included in Churches Together in England, after some discussion by other members, having been included in the previous British Council of Churches. I see from Wikipedia that the new body included the Catholics as full members, which they had not been in the BCC.

I do remember that Quakers had some concern about the exclusion of the Unitarian Church, a founder member of the BCC from the new body, and were not sure about the rightness of being members when the Unitarians were cast out. The issue was a credal one.

The national membership is not always evident in local ecumenism (it is where my meeting is), I see from a document Quakers in Local Churches Together.

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

They also run schools with a high reputation.

Having been to one, you will excuse me for honking in derision. There was, however, universal rejoicing when the games master shot himself in the eye with the starting pistol.

I have to say that the only spirit that ever visited me in a Quaker meeting was the Oh God of How Much Longer?

AG

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:

I have to say that the only spirit that ever visited me in a Quaker meeting was the Oh God of How Much Longer?

AG

This reminds me of the situation in schools where a child would complain of something, which others found interesting, being boring. The most recent example being of a child claiming that swimming was boring. The others explained that he always said that when he didn't like things.

There are two sorts of being bored in my opinion - one when the activity is lacking stimulus, the other when the person concerned has brought their own boredom to the party. People who are not in Meeting of their own choice may well be in the latter camp. Even some who have chosen may be one some occasions. But that doesn't mean the Spirit isn't there. And when there is a truly gathered Meeting, that presence is irresistable.

[ 11. November 2012, 07:27: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
I have to say that the only spirit that ever visited me in a Quaker meeting was the Oh God of How Much Longer?

Not everything suits everybody - have you ever tried meditation, if so did you find it useful ?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Having been to one, you will excuse me for honking in derision. There was, however, universal rejoicing when the games master shot himself in the eye with the starting pistol.

I wouldn't have thought a Quaker school would have a starting pistol.

quote:

I have to say that the only spirit that ever visited me in a Quaker meeting was the Oh God of How Much Longer?

Plenty of people have expressed similar sentiments about school chapel in CofE, RC and all manner of other sorts of schools over the years. It's hardly fair to blame the Quakers alone for boring the spotty generation.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Does anyone know if that 7th day baptist church in Tottenham is still going. Now there is a survivor from the 17th century, and a lone survivor in England I would think.

It was old dissent and kept Saturday as the Sabbath - which would mark them out well from other churches, except the seventh day Adventists of course.

It's listed still on finda church but v little details and I can't find a website.

Anyone know more about them. It would be fascinating to know how children are brought up in that tradition.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Is the Seventh Church of the Apocalyptic Lawnmower still going?

Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
People who are not in Meeting of their own choice may well be in the latter camp.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, Penny S. As someone who pretty much only sits still when they are eating, reading or sleeping, I found silent assemblies and meetings intolerable. Whilst I have the greatest of respct for what the Quakers do, wild horses would not get me back in a meeting. I have similar views on meditation - give me a task that I can get lost in and maybe I will find an inner calm and contentment. I certainly need it at the mo.

As, however, I am in danger of making this a me me me thread, I'll just note that Karl's link made me ROFL.

AG

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

According to this paper Seventh Day Baptists seem to be well and truly dead. It is a genuinely a non-conformist history paper and therefore although a history it has none of the neat lineage that we associate with text books. Rather what it covers is a complicated pattern of alliances and disputes going over three centuries.

It also appears that while churches bore the label Seventh Day Baptists, there was no such denomination. Rather they tended to be members of the bigger Baptist Union

Jengie

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Yes that paper does suggest that.

However our friend Google suggests early notice of their demise may be unfounded BUT more recent reports may be true. This website suggests the church is alive and well.

I even came across photos of people standing outside a large house with a church notice board outside. However nothing recent, suggesting it may now be closed. Anyone know?

I wonder if the church had appeal to people from the Carribean where the 7th day Adventists are strong.

Whatever they are the only Saturday as sabbath group associated with a main stream denomination I have ever heard of.

I have yet to hear of 7th day Anglicans [Smile]

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

But the link to the church website itself is dead.

I think that as this thread is not so much in its seventh day as its fifth month, we might give it a well-earned rest.

Firenze
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