Ship of Fools: Long Incumbencies

Thread: Long Incumbencies Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

In the not too distant past in the Exeter diocese, there was an occasion when the Diocesan went to Bridgerule to celebrate with the parish the 60th anniversary of the induction of their vicar, the Reverend Frank Kingdom. This was not the 60th anniversary of his ordination, but ACTUALLY of his taking possession of the living as vicar. He held it for 62 years.

A parish not far from here (same diocese), had a deeply loved and feted vicar who arrived when he was 61, and stayed until he was 94, when he was carried out to be buried against the wall near to the altar, surrounded by his pets which he had quietly and secretly buried there over the years. It was one of the legendary funerals of the 80s, with the service being relayed by microphone along the country lanes as so many wished to attend. It was remarked at the time how many 'non-church' people flocked in to pay their respects. Even the local florists who ran out of stock, sent their own tributes.

Then there was the legendary Father David Diamond of Deptford, his long incumbency, untimely death in the 1990s and staggering funeral attended by the whole of Deptford with tributes sent by the Kray family, weeping homeless people by his graveside, special black edged edition of the Deptford News, closed shops and the like.

And the incumbency of the remarkable Prebendary Chad Varah into his 90s...

Do any Shipmates have views, memories or stories of other amazingly successful (or not so successful') long incumbencies?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Canon Alan Taylor, 26 years (or 28?) at St. Aidan's Leeds - longest-serving incumbent in Ripon & Leeds diocese.

An urban priority area - unlike most, which have declined, it has held fast numberwise and been innovative.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Oh yes, a truly remarkable man who can stand four-square with the others mentioned in the OP.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Both Frs Diamond and Taylor have a Liverpool connection. Fr Diamond served under Canon Frank Sampson who was inducted to St John the Baptist Tue Brook in the early 1940s and died in harness in 1994 or 95. There was also Canon Spencer Wilson who served a similarly lengthy stint at St James Haydock (though he survived for a few years after retirement).

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Episcopal church I grew up in had the same guy for his whole career. Was that perhaps more normal back then? I would guess he was neither outstanding nor deeply flawed. And I think there's value to the continuity. But you also get just one person's beliefs/attitudes through the years.

I chatted with a clergy gal today about people saying "we are not going to let her go." She laughed and said "that's because I'm new, in a few years they'll want to get rid of me." No one talked about "getting rid of" the lifelong guy.

We also used to have family doctors, the same doctor for a few decades. Now we get different one each doctor visit, which gets us a variety of opinions (can be good) but no one knows *you* so it's more impersonal (not as good).

Posted by deusluxmea (# 15765) on :

The only local Epsicopal one that comes to mind is Rev. Charles Colwell who served St Barnabas Church at Irvington-on-Hudson for at least 36 years.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Exeter Diocese still has its share of long incumbencies (obviously a good place to live and minister!).

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

There is an old joke about a parish which had pastors who had very long tenures.

A little ways away was another congregation which saw a new minister every three or four years.

The people from the second church asked the people from the first church how did they always get such good ministers. The reply from the people from the first church was: "We make them that way."

I think long tenures start with the attitude of the congregation. If it wants its vicars stay long term, it will make sure it happens. However, if a congregation thinks the pastor is not good enough, it will see a short term ministry.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Nobody's yet repeated the old story (rural myth?) of the incumbent who had served 50 years plus and showed no signs of retiring well into his eighties. His response to the Bishop's hints was 'My Lord, when your distinguished predecessor-but-three inducted me to this living seventy* years ago, he made no suggestion that it was to be a temporary appointment.'

* possibly slightly exaggerated.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

It's not just Anglicans - the Minister of Gunnersbury Baptist Church (West London) served for 50 years (?1945-95) and died in office.

Remember that Baptists don't have Freehold and can actually be sacked by their congregations ...

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

For longevity there are the father (James Stewart, minister 1723-1752), son (Gershom Stewart, minister 1747-1795), and grandson (John Stewart, minister 1795-1825), ministers (Church of Scotland) of Kilbride, Arran, Scotland from 1723 until 1825. The father, James, had his son as an assistant before transferring to the neighboring parish of Kilmory in 1752 where he remained until he died in 1761.

(I uncovered them when looking for family roots, the first two are direct ancestors.)

Also Alexander McGregor minister of Balquhidder, Scotland from 1803-1836 who by many accounts was 66 or 67 or older when he became the minister (he was reputed to have been 103 when he died). He is not a relative but his successor (1836-1877), also called Alexander McGregor was a cousin (grandson of Gershom above). So that kirk had an Alexander McGregor as a minister for 74 years.

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

Or famously, there was Charles Simeon, vicar of Holy Trinity Cambridge from 1783 to his death in 1836.

There is a church in Manchester I used to go to, where no vicar had served less than 10 years since WW2, and several had done over 20. I think 27 was the record in recent history...

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I know somebody who was ordained quite young by modern standards (late 20s), did a training curacy, did a second curacy and when his vicar retired, was appointed to the living. He then served there until he retired two or three years ago.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Willie Still 52 years minister of Gilcomston South, Aberdeen. He was succeeded by the current minister, Dominic Smart.

Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :

I thought you might have been discussing this gentleman
Longest serving Vicar in the UK today
I saw a celebration for him on local news when living at Cuddesdon last year.

[ 18. December 2012, 10:23: Message edited by: Jante ]

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

And the incumbency of the remarkable Prebendary Chad Varah into his 90s...

I was fortunate enough to attend occasional lunchtime services at Chad Varah's church in the last few years of his incumbency. I didn't know who he was at the time. I just saw a remarkable elderly priest who would used a walking frame while distributing the Communion, and preached the most incredibly insightful sermons from his folding directors chair in front of that altar (and what an altar it is!). An extraordinary man!

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Nobody's yet repeated the old story (rural myth?) of the incumbent who had served 50 years plus and showed no signs of retiring well into his eighties. His response to the Bishop's hints was 'My Lord, when your distinguished predecessor-but-three inducted me to this living seventy* years ago, he made no suggestion that it was to be a temporary appointment.'

* possibly slightly exaggerated.

That's the big difference these days. Freeholds are a rarity (at least they were in my neck of the CofE woods) whereas five and seven year licenses as vicars and rectors are now the norm. And even then many clergy might not complete their license. In this part of the CofI I think you're here until either the bishop hints heavily of a change or you move on by your own choice eg, you're approached by parochial nominators from another parish.

I love the OP reference to the cleric who secretly buried his pets by the church wall [Tear]

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

Fr Sneath has only been Vicar of Camp Hill, in the diocese of Coventry, for 45 years, but was curate-in-charge before that, and assistant curate before that, having been ordained in 1953. He's quite a character.

Fr Coyne went to St Gabriel, Fulbrook in 1972. I'm not entirely sure when he retired but it was certainly after 2007. Sadly, or not depending on your view, he's now a Catholic.

In both cases, these were men who are/were completely devoted to their parishes. Such long ministries must be a nightmare for their successor.

Thurible

[ 18. December 2012, 12:43: Message edited by: Thurible ]

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

While this is a good thread, it's not really a Puratorial one. Let's see how it fits in Heaven. Up you go!

--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
There is an old joke about a parish which had pastors who had very long tenures.

A little ways away was another congregation which saw a new minister every three or four years.

The people from the second church asked the people from the first church how did they always get such good ministers. The reply from the people from the first church was: "We make them that way."

I think long tenures start with the attitude of the congregation. If it wants its vicars stay long term, it will make sure it happens. However, if a congregation thinks the pastor is not good enough, it will see a short term ministry.

This assumes, though, that a long tenure is a good thing. It's often thought that, as no priest is perfect, staying too long highlights the weaknesses as well as the strengths, so it is good to have 'new blood' / new parish after say 8-10 years in one post.

It is sometimes the weaker priests who stay in the church where they went after their initial curacy right through until their retirement.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

I was going to post about the ministers I followed in my first two churches - both had stayed over 30 years. One died a couple of years before I arrived but (and for me, it is a 'but') his ghost lived on whilst I was present and for years afterwards.
Now that this thread is in heaven I'll keep my thoughts to myself but say that both men were very much loved and respected and did a fine job in their own way.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
This assumes, though, that a long tenure is a good thing. It's often thought that, as no priest is perfect, staying too long highlights the weaknesses as well as the strengths, so it is good to have 'new blood' / new parish after say 8-10 years in one post.

It is sometimes the weaker priests who stay in the church where they went after their initial curacy right through until their retirement.

I think long tenure can be a very good thing, though it depends on the minister.

My current church has had a high turnover of vicars because it tends to attract high flyers who are en route to somewhere else. They tend to spend a lot of time tinkering with the liturgy and producing service booklets, move on to pet project, train a curate and then move on. (Having not seen the fruits of their labour mature not learned from their mistakes, they can go on to make the same mistakes in their next parish.)

Another bad thing is that they can get away with recycling sermons. This makes them stale if they don't keep up to date with their reading. Also, a sermon prepared for St. X's might not suit St. Z's.

The next repeats the cycle.

The priest who baptised me and prepared me for confirmation also took my father's funeral, knew our family inside out and was an excellent pastor.

I also knew a priest who returned to his curacy/title parish and was excellent as vicar.

But I also knew one who came to be vicar of the church where he'd grown up. It was allusion that he expected to be called 'Father' by people who'd been his baby-sitters years back.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

In 1958 I was appointed organist-choirmaster of a church in the Diocese of Chicago (TEC), Church of the Atonement. The rector had been there several years at that point -- don't know how many. The next year (1959) a new curate and a new organist were appointed.

The rector retired IIRC in 2008, the curate the next year, and the organist in 2010. (I believe all those dates are correct; Mamacita can perhaps verity.) That surely is a record for such long tenures in the same parish at the same time!

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Indeed Leo - one of the priests in the OP was told by some parishoners in his first curacy in the 1920s 'go, win your spurs and come back as our vicar'. He did just that. and returned to this city centre parish as vicar.

It was the same one that went eventually to the country - and buried his pets, touchingly; knew everyone, left a legacy decades later of many people feeling it is 'their' church, even though they might not actually go. Even the 'stokers up' behind the scenes at the local crematorium had a photo of him on their noticeboard. He never took a funeral there without visiting them, and taking them little gifts. He even used to appear and take the grave digger a glass of something on a silver tray.

The secret (I suspect) was that he loved and was fascinated by people - and they returned his love a hundred fold.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

Fr. Ken Martin, who died this year, was a teacher and an NSM in the parish of Roath, Cardiff for several decades. He was ordained 64 years ago and continued with some services till about 4 years ago AFAIK. I don't know exactly when he started work in the parish but I would guess he was there at least 40 years? He served under a number of vicars and the one who conducted his funeral had been a former pupil of his - in physics, however, not theology!

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