Thread: Christian women, hijabs and cultural appropriation Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
One of the youtube vloggers I follow is Gothmummi, a Christian woman who wears the hijab for spiritual reasons of modesty. I am considering using them for headcoverings for similar reasons (ie not because of headship or other expired equine topics). I just don't feel like the more standard headcoverings like bandannas etc feel right for me, and bonnets/kapps are out because I am far from Plain. I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Okay, sorry if my terminology is a bit off-kilter here, hopefully my meaning will be clear...

I don't think there is anything "sacramental" about Muslim headgear, it's just a way of covering the head and/or the face, in keeping with the religious dictates of modesty.

So, I think a proper comparison would be, say, someone switching to a vegetarian diet, because he's heard from Hindus that it's healthier. That's not the same thing as, say, putting a statue of a Hindu deity in your living room, and praying in front of it, as if you were a Hindu, because you think it makes you look cool.

[ 04. November 2012, 03:11: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
It was common in the early church I believe.

I think it was Byzantine fashion.

That early church mother that did pilgrimages all over the place used to wear a veil as she traveled.

Seemed to be part of the culture.

I don't have a problem with it if it's what you want to do. Go for it. [Smile]

I found a great little cartoon on one possible interpretation of the idea here.

[ 04. November 2012, 03:41: Message edited by: Evensong ]
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
The main problem I see with such a plan is that you will confuse people and end up having to try to explain why you are doing what you are doing. Or you'll have to be curt and uncommunicative or coyly mysterious. Not that it's anyone's business what you wear, but that never stops anyone. Are you a Muslim? Is it a fashion statement? Do you have alopecia? Are you going through chemo? Do you belong to a cult? In the meantime they are not seeing you. They are looking at a quandary. My two cents.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
google up images of orthodox head covering or eastern orthodox head covering, or the like. The patent style of the female head covering may be culturally Muslim or Christian, but there's nothing nothing particularly religion-specific about it. Stop into any conservative Orthodox parish church to see the variety.

Also, "Muslim" male head coverings can be found on Orthodox monks—or is it vice versa? See the fourth product down on this page.

Does anybody know the Russian or the Greek word for these monks' caps?

[ 04. November 2012, 04:08: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
In Australia we call them beanies. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
A lovely old lady at my Mum's church (small, outback community) decided to do much the same thing, for much the same reasons. She just bought a lot of really lovely hats and wears one pretty much constantly. Something else to consider, maybe?
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Go for it if you are a "hat person".
I am too.
My problem with it is that after twice going through chemo if people see me wearing too much head-covering they think "Ooh! It's come back, poor thing!" Or that I am converting to Judaism.
Christian women here very purposely do not cover to distinguish themselves from their Jewish and Muslim sisters.
I think covering is very becoming to most faces actually and you really have so much choice over colours and fabric textures...
There is always The Political Statement in it. Anything we women do with our hair is a political statement. So just have it clear in your own mind (at least for the coming 12 hours - obviously we all develope!). And have a sound bite or 3 ready for situations on the street.
Please keep in touch about it (or PM me). I'm so interested to see how it goes in Britain.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Galilit:
quote:
And have a sound bite or 3 ready for situations on the street.
That's good advice to meet my concern.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The main problem I see with such a plan is that you will confuse people and end up having to try to explain why you are doing what you are doing. Or you'll have to be curt and uncommunicative or coyly mysterious. Not that it's anyone's business what you wear, but that never stops anyone. Are you a Muslim? Is it a fashion statement? Do you have alopecia? Are you going through chemo? Do you belong to a cult? In the meantime they are not seeing you. They are looking at a quandary. My two cents.
Honestly, this wouldn't bother me. Being a larger woman, my body is subject to public comment anyway so a little more doesn't make much difference to me. The only group that concern me re their opinion of it would be my church and other Christian friends, and the potential new relationship on the horizon.
 
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
If you want to wear a head covering, good for you go for it BUT please don't pretend that it has anything to do with Christianity. I HATE the idea of hijab it smacks of women being responsible for men's behaviour and a whole host of other things and there is nothing within Christianity to suggest that women need to cover their heads, except perhaps when praying and that is a completely different thing from wearing it for modesty. So wear what you want, make any fashion statement you want but don't say that it is has any link with Christianity 'cos that's a heresy-it's purely a fashion statement for Christians.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Go for it if you are a "hat person".
I am too.
My problem with it is that after twice going through chemo if people see me wearing too much head-covering they think "Ooh! It's come back, poor thing!" Or that I am converting to Judaism.
Christian women here very purposely do not cover to distinguish themselves from their Jewish and Muslim sisters.
I think covering is very becoming to most faces actually and you really have so much choice over colours and fabric textures...
There is always The Political Statement in it. Anything we women do with our hair is a political statement. So just have it clear in your own mind (at least for the coming 12 hours - obviously we all develope!). And have a sound bite or 3 ready for situations on the street.
Please keep in touch about it (or PM me). I'm so interested to see how it goes in Britain.
From a feminist perspective and as someone who fights many battles with her very thick unruly hair, the idea of taking my hair back out of public view does appeal. It makes it mine and mine only, seen by who I allow to see it. That's not the reason I want to cover but it is an appealing aspect of it.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
If you want to wear a head covering, good for you go for it BUT please don't pretend that it has anything to do with Christianity. I HATE the idea of hijab it smacks of women being responsible for men's behaviour and a whole host of other things and there is nothing within Christianity to suggest that women need to cover their heads, except perhaps when praying and that is a completely different thing from wearing it for modesty. So wear what you want, make any fashion statement you want but don't say that it is has any link with Christianity 'cos that's a heresy-it's purely a fashion statement for Christians.
Um, it's not about fashion for me. Totally, totally not. It's symbolic of my relationship with God. I'm not covering in the 1 Corinthians sense, it's not to do with male headship or anything like that. Why is the prompting of the Spirit/my soul/what have you heresy? My personal reasons for covering ARE to do with my personal faith.

As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify. I don't see how having to have socially-defined perfect hairstyles every day is less oppressive than wearing a headscarf.
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't see how having to have socially-defined perfect hairstyles every day is less oppressive than wearing a headscarf.
Yes, well, the pertinent term here is "having to". That's the nub of the problem. Being pressured or compelled to do anything in particular with your hair (or any other part of your body) is oppressive. Doing what you choose with your hair, whether that's covering it, perming it, shaving it off or having one of those colourful Mohican cockscombs which used to be fashionable, should be entirely your own business. But it isn't. As Galilit says, everything we women do with our hair is a political statement. In fact, everything we women do with any aspect of our appearance is a political statement and there's been a recent Hell thread about this.

Rightly or wrongly, many people in Western cultures find Muslim women's head coverings threatening, while they don't find the similar head coverings worn by traditional Christian nuns threatening. This probably goes back over 1000 years to the Islamic invasion of Europe. I don't think it's entirely rational, which makes it particularly difficult to deal with.

So, as other people have already said, you will get comments. Maybe you could tell people you're a traditional nun? [Biased]
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:

Rightly or wrongly, many people in Western cultures find Muslim women's head coverings threatening, while they don't find the similar head coverings worn by traditional Christian nuns threatening. This probably goes back over 1000 years to the Islamic invasion of Europe. I don't think it's entirely rational, which makes it particularly difficult to deal with.
I adore extreme hairstyles and wear many different head coverings myself.

The thing I dislike about the hijab is that it covers the face. This removes a huge part of communication - facial expressions are important to me.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The thing I dislike about the hijab is that it covers the face.
The hijab covers hair and neck. Other garments cover the face - burqa being an example.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
The thing I dislike about the hijab is that it covers the ears. You won't hear as clearly. And you'll need to be careful in how you behave because you'll be mistaken for a Muslim woman, by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

It can also make your hair go flat ("hat hair") and the cloth being tight against the skin of your face can feel uncomfortable and hot - it doesn't allow the pores to breathe. In winter it's extra warmth but in a warm environment you may wish you hadn't opted for it. It does also depend on the cloth and how you position it but it may also slightly restrict your field of vision.

Other than that I don't have a problem with it. It can look attractive and elegant, although not every woman has a face that suits being framed by cloth. If you visibly wear Christian jewellery you may get away with it, but be prepared for some unwanted attention.
 
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
If you want to wear a head covering, good for you go for it BUT please don't pretend that it has anything to do with Christianity. I HATE the idea of hijab it smacks of women being responsible for men's behaviour and a whole host of other things and there is nothing within Christianity to suggest that women need to cover their heads, except perhaps when praying and that is a completely different thing from wearing it for modesty. So wear what you want, make any fashion statement you want but don't say that it is has any link with Christianity 'cos that's a heresy-it's purely a fashion statement for Christians.
Um, it's not about fashion for me. Totally, totally not. It's symbolic of my relationship with God. I'm not covering in the 1 Corinthians sense, it's not to do with male headship or anything like that. Why is the prompting of the Spirit/my soul/what have you heresy? My personal reasons for covering ARE to do with my personal faith.

As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify. I don't see how having to have socially-defined perfect hairstyles every day is less oppressive than wearing a headscarf.
Christian spirituality says not to worry about what you wear, the body is more than clothing, so it's heresy to think that your clothes have any moderating influence on your relationship with God or could be symbolic of your relationship with God.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The thing I dislike about the hijab is that it covers the face.
The hijab covers hair and neck. Other garments cover the face - burqa being an example.
Oooops, sorry, you are right. Then I have no problem whatever with it, this is no different from any other head covering.

It's face covering which bothers me.
 
Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Christian spirituality says not to worry about what you wear, the body is more than clothing, so it's heresy to think that your clothes have any moderating influence on your relationship with God or could be symbolic of your relationship with God.
Have we come around to the annual Lent thread already? For some, these things are important aspects of their faith.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Jade Constable:
quote:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
I have read statements from a number of Islamic women that this is true for them. I believe them.

OTOH, there was a recent article in Newsweek by a Western woman who lived for a week with a Saudi woman who very distinctly articulated that her modest covering was worn in order to protect men's honor, and that if they "fell" in any way because her dress attracted attention, it would be her responsibility before Allah. She was also violently against all new feminist steps in her society such as having female news readers with uncovered faces on TV or women driving. Her and all other women's job in life was to serve their husbands, make a happy and comfortable home for them, raise their children to be faithful servants of Allah, and protect their family's honor. And attract no attention to themselves. Period.

There was no indication that her husband was a domestic tyrant, enforcing her parroting of those opinions to a visitor. He seemed to be just a quiet-spoken university professor the few times the writer was in his presence.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
There is also, of course, the wimple.

Irreproachable European heritage and comes in a variety of styles (I like the knitted one the baby is wearing).
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I like most of those! Of course, I'm a historic recreationist at heart.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Jemima Goldsmith-Khan said she felt that when wearing "Islamic garb" she had less social difficulties of course; but she also felt people really did treat her with more respect, genuine respect.
I know myself when I have worn one of my "could-be-a-religious-head-covering" hats I am treated more politely.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
Having to cover ones hair because otherwise men cannot control their penises is oppression.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Point the second:
I think our hair affects and reflects our relationships with Other People (family, friends or random passers-by); not our relationship with God per se. (Unless it's a Habit or a nun-ny skirt and aran knit cardie, I suppose)
Maybe it's an outward sign for us so that we'll feel more whole and integrated in whatever hair or covering we choose.

But I don't think "God wants" one to dress in a certain way. And as for his Ministers and People here on Earth : NOONE will tell me what to wear on my head or what NOT to wear on my head.

Once you start thinking about this (hair, covering,etc) you never stop analysing it.

I find it simply fascinating and I love to consider what affect my hair/covering is going to create. Who might think she is my new sister? Who might think I have changed? (Health or belief), What random passers by might do or say? Is it sunny? How sunny? How feminine? How androgynous? How practical? How pretty? How attention-drawing?

Welcome, Jade Constable, to this world! It's a wonderful Journey!
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
Having to cover ones hair because otherwise men cannot control their penises is oppression.
I've often wondered why, if men are the ones God/Allah has appointed to rule the world and rule over women, they need such aid in ruling over their own impulses. It doesn't inspire confidence.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Occasionally I see women wearing something like this. They obviously all belong to the same religion, but I don't know what it is.

Moo
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
What about a buff - there are a huge variety of styles. You could get a black one if you felt strongly about it.

(What I would say is, if you are finding life tough at the moment: don't invite more problems into you life than you have to, so maybe cover your head if you feel you need to but do it in a way that isn't as likely to draw adverse attention as a hijab, you have enough on your plate already.)

[ 04. November 2012, 11:14: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Occasionally I see women wearing something like this. They obviously all belong to the same religion, but I don't know what it is.
Muslim. This is the Turkic version of the hijab. Worn in some parts of Turkey (although the government is secular and doesn't really approve) and in the former Soviet Turkic states such as Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan etc.
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've often wondered why, if men are the ones God/Allah has appointed to rule the world and rule over women, they need such aid in ruling over their own impulses. It doesn't inspire confidence.
tangent:

Has there been any research on whether men find it more difficult to rule over their own impulses in African countries where young women go around more or less naked? It would be interesting to know whether rape/sexual assault is more or less likely than in countries where women are covered up. Does anyone know?

/tangent
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Two thoughts.

Headscarves, snoods, wimples etc can look very elegant, but, if not actually denying, I'd query whether it is being evasive about ones faith if one wears it in a way that is likely to cause people to think one is a Moslem.

It might be an idea to wear a visible cross or to choose a quite different style - e.g like Russian women wear for church.

Also, I think other people are entitled to be able to see your face when you talk to them. Otherwise, in what way is that different from IRA balaclavas that cover the face with holes cut in them for eyes, nostrils and mouth? It's also discriminatory even against the partially deaf.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Having to cover ones hair because otherwise men cannot control their penises is oppression.
[Killing me] Those ridiculous little tags of skin? [Killing me]

It's the mind of man we need fear.
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
My anecdotal understanding is that Islam took this, as much else, from Christian (Syriac) tradition.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
I've got a really cool bridge to sell you. A bit damp around the edges this week, but it'll clean up nicely.

In some places women have been killed for showing their faces in public. That's not spiritual expression. Its not even ordinary oppression. Its slavery. Institutionalised rape as a means of social control.

And yes, there's nothing wrong with wearing a headscarf if you want. When I was a kid most working-class English women wore headscarves. Its just changing fashion. Maybe you'll start a trend.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
Pre-JFK we all, men and women, wore a hat whenever we went outdoors. Women were allowed to wear the hat indoors, too, because it was part of her outfit. Most episcopalian churches I've visited at least one women is wearing a fashion hat. One friend never goes out without a hat, she is sun sensitive and a hat is just part of her look.

Go buy some hats that look good with your clothes for our culture, people's only comments will be how good you look.

Adopting a not-our-culture headgear is going to get some comments, mostly silent, such as "she must be part of some religious cult." Because they are silent you don't get to respond with your own explanation. At least know that, don't be surprised.
 
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
Yes, it's just a generally religious/spiritual gesture from a certain century, and generally in fashion see here.

I'm always feeling moved to wear head-things out of a vague religious sense, ever since I worked for a family of Plymouth Brethen and envied their lovely family, community and lifestyle. They wore little triangles of cloth, and I felt ashamed, going there one day with very short hair and nothing to cover it.

In Palestine, the Christians make a point of not covering their hair, and the muslims look incredibly sexy in their slinky headgear and skintight to wrists and ankles clothes!

[ 04. November 2012, 13:24: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Ken, all that and worse is true. How are we to include such cultures? Such enemies? How are we to love them? Honour them?

When are we EVER going to be Christ to them?
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
Far back in the middle of another century when I was even younger, my mother and all my aunts - and everyone else's mothers and aunts - wore headscarves when riding their bicycles. They kept their hair straight and the rain off, and I suppose the cloth cap was the male equivalent. This was before crash helmets and spandex cycling outfits, of course, which might not have suited my mother and the legion of aunts anyway. If headscarves can catch on again to be seen as practical headgear instead of religious/political statements, you might be doing the world a favour.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Lots of people out there wearing beanies and trilbies at the moment, both men and women. You could go for berets or flat caps, a fedora, large brimmed hat or a headscarf. All of which would cover your head and make a statement without being ambiguous about your religion.
 
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
hey, CK, I never thought of those as a headscarf. see these methods to tie for useful reference, I'm going to try them instead of buying a snood.
headscarf tying

Jade, having read your blog I realise you're saying quite clearly that you want it to be seen as a religious covering, and unfortunately mainstream Christians aren't doing that this century. So you have a choice of looking like a muslim (which feels a bit tricky on several levels) or wearing a catholic manilla or a Brethern square.

I'm sometimes tempted to wear a muslim scarf to see how it feels to be on the receiving end of that assumption, but I don't see how it would express my Christian faith at all. Anymore than wearing a star of David or a Sikh headscarf would.

eta: I wore a trilby at school in the 80s. very, very cool [Big Grin]

[ 04. November 2012, 14:04: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
 
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
this is what young women in Palestine wear (Muslims, obviously... though not all Muslims. I met an English woman who moved there last year and converted to Islam, but she doesn't wear other aspects of middle eastern clothes so why adopt that one?)

the woman in this video takes forever and a day but that's for our beneift I presume - there was a kid of about 9 at the swimming pool who whisked her hair up in 30 seconds flat.
 
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :
 
I don't really get how showing your hair is immodest. Low necklines, showing a lot of skin generally, tight-fitting clothes - I can see why they might not be thought modest, but hair? And why only women's hair?
 
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
[Roll Eyes] doncha know that when a dude looks at a girl's hair, he is overwhelmed with desire??

All that sweet smelling cascading loveliness... or in my case, something reminiscent of a hedgehog. (Which is shameful, according to saint Paul.)
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
One of the youtube vloggers I follow is Gothmummi, a Christian woman who wears the hijab for spiritual reasons of modesty. I am considering using them for headcoverings for similar reasons (ie not because of headship or other expired equine topics). I just don't feel like the more standard headcoverings like bandannas etc feel right for me, and bonnets/kapps are out because I am far from Plain. I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
I'd say follow your heart on this one if you have prayed and truly feel that God is leading you to take this course.

There are many variations for covering the head/hair.

The only real problem that comes to mind is that people may make assumptions about you that don't correspond with what you are trying to do.

But that is also true of women who are lead to use coverings associated more often with the Amish.

And the upside of this sort of confusion is that it might lead to a good dialogue with someone else.

sabine
 
Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour.
It may not have been what it was originally about...

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression,
If there's no choice - if there's even a hint of 'you must wear this if you want to be part of our community', 'you must wear this because you are my wife' or even, 'you must wear this if you want to demonstrate that you are honorable and modest' - then it's oppressive.

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
it's about spiritual expression...
How so? Particularly since you have specifically said it's nothing to do with headship. I'm pretty sure the covering up in God's presence thing is about headship, about rank, about hierarchy, (yours with respect to God), just as the removal of male headgear in God's presence is about headship - it's just an elongated cap-doffing to the biggest boss of them all.

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
and ownership of one's own body,
Ownership of one's own body (especially when one is female) is a fairly modern, western, ideal, and as such, is unlikely to be enshrined in ancient Islamic tradition. Or ancient* Christian tradition for that matter.

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
not having it for everyone to objectify.
It seems to me that the body is objectified essentially by becoming 'what it is about' - by being identified with (or confused for) the essential-ness of an individual. So, a perfectly buffed and tanned woman in a bikini is likely to be objectified because her appearance will take precedence over her 'self-ness' in the minds of those who encounter her. However, this is likely to be true of those who wear hijabs or niqabs in a society where such things are not common - the clothing/appearance stands out and thus becomes what people focus on. How is this not objectification? It may not be sexual objectification, sure...

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't see how having to have socially-defined perfect hairstyles every day is less oppressive than wearing a headscarf.
Quite. Absolutely. But it's the having to which is oppressive, not anything about the hair itself. So surely you can see that the converse is true in societies where headscarf-wearing is culturally mandated?

*or modern, if you are female.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
I can think of only 2 rational reasons to wear a head covering. Weather or hair fell out due to cancer. It is possible to make anything mean something in a religious sense.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've often wondered why, if men are the ones God/Allah has appointed to rule the world and rule over women, they need such aid in ruling over their own impulses. It doesn't inspire confidence.
It's a real Achilles' Knob.

quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Has there been any research on whether men find it more difficult to rule over their own impulses in African countries where young women go around more or less naked? It would be interesting to know whether rape/sexual assault is more or less likely than in countries where women are covered up. Does anyone know?
In some parts of rural/tribal Africa rape is endemic, and almost considered a rite-of-passage for young men (You're not really a man until you rape some woman). I don't know if that coincides with groups with minimal clothing or not.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I can think of only 2 rational reasons to wear a head covering. Weather or hair fell out due to cancer.
How about, you like them? Is it irrational to do things you enjoy?
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
How about, you like them? Is it irrational to do things you enjoy?
It depends. Consider tobacco smoking, heavy drinking, promiscuity, and eating lard. Granted that wearing a hat is not damaging to health, nor harmful in any way, but it can be socially meaningful or problematic. It is banned that the hoods of hooded sweatshirts are worn over the head in all schools, courtrooms, and businesses also have the right to ban them. There has controversy about bans on wearing gang colours and insignia as well.

The problem is, someone is wearing a toque on a winter day (a toque is a brimless woven cap that covers the ears, btw a beanie doesn't cover the ears), and comes in from outside wearing it and keeps it on, e.g., while shopping in a mall. No problem. Is this different than someone wearing religious or gang headgear? If they are in a group? If the group is behaving in ways that bother others? There seem to be limits in some cases.

Now if someone, on their own wears a head covering, probably no-one cares, and it is a quirk or eccentricity. I would see the ascribing of meaning to it to be unusual, and approaching fetishism in some situations.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I should think that being in a group of people that bothers others is wrong whether or not you're wearing a hat, and the same degree of wrong either way.

What it really sounds like is you don't like hats, and anybody who wears them is, according to you, suspect of criminal behavior at worst, and eccentric bordering on fetishist at best.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Occasionally I see women wearing something like this. They obviously all belong to the same religion, but I don't know what it is.
Muslim. This is the Turkic version of the hijab. Worn in some parts of Turkey (although the government is secular and doesn't really approve) and in the former Soviet Turkic states such as Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan etc.
I have seen this in Appalachia where, AFAIK, there are very few Turks.

Moo
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I should think that being in a group of people that bothers others is wrong whether or not you're wearing a hat, and the same degree of wrong either way.

What it really sounds like is you don't like hats, and anybody who wears them is, according to you, suspect of criminal behavior at worst, and eccentric bordering on fetishist at best.
No, not at all. I wear a toque constantly in the winter. Sometimes inside also. In summer, I wear a brimmed hat, constantly outside. I have now 8 toques, down from 9 because one of the dogs tore one apart this morning while we were out. Bad doggy!

What we're dealing with here, in my city, is trying to find the balance between personal rights of some individuals, usually younger, and the personal rights of others, usually older. The ban on street gangs wearing insignia of any kind seems reasonable to many when they attend public establishments. It seems the link between identifiable street gang member and a knifing is fairly close.

Back to the topic of religious head coverings, as the wearers are unlikely to be Hell's Grannies, so maybe live and let live. Face coverings - masks seem more problematic unless temporary out in the winter necessities. I still wonder about religious fetishism however.
 
Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
[ When I was a kid most working-class English women wore headscarves. Its just changing fashion. Maybe you'll start a trend. [/QB]
So did the Queen of England, no less - especially in winter at outdoor occasions. As far as I know, she still does so.

So I don't have any problem with headscarves as such - several of my students here in Fiji wear them - so long as they leave the face uncovered, so I can tell who it is and have an intelligent conversation.

On the other hand, Those who leave only a slit for their eyes leave me feeling: here comes an object which may be a woman but could equally be a man with something to hide - and quite likely a bank robber, IRA bomber or worse - other wise why would they dress like this outside of a patriarchal theocracy like Iran? They tempt me all right - tempt me to report them to police as a suspicious character.
 
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Occasionally I see women wearing something like this. They obviously all belong to the same religion, but I don't know what it is.
Muslim. This is the Turkic version of the hijab. Worn in some parts of Turkey (although the government is secular and doesn't really approve) and in the former Soviet Turkic states such as Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan etc.
I have seen this in Appalachia where, AFAIK, there are very few Turks.

Moo
Mennonites?
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Babushkas were moderately common on the Canadian prairies. Mostly Ukrainian women up until perhaps 1970. Rarely seen any more.

Also common at that time were women with curlers in their hair with plastic ones, usually shopping for TV dinners.
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Happy Headscarf & Mildly Pissed Off Headscarf
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
I think I have something to add to this, as in 2011 I shaved 24 inches of hair off to raise money for a pediatric cancer charity.

I laid in a lovely selection of hats and caps and tiechels beforehand because, well, I was afraid I didn't have an attractively shaped head. I rarely wore my hats or caps or tiechels out because wahey! I have a nice shaped head.

I did tend to wear a baseball cap while commuting, because Oregon rain is COLD on your little bald skull even in July. My fancy dress I don't want to explain to people what happened to my hair go-to cover was a tiechel. I reaffirmed my baptismal vows on Pentecost wearing a sparkly red tiechel because I didn't want to subject the bishop to my prickly scalp.

I'm going to be shaving my head again next year, by the way. Everyone start saving your pennies to sponsor me. I'm going to have to get new curtains before then, though, I'm using a significant number of the tiechels as makeshift window coverings right now.

Now, for your desire for people to know that your headcovering is because you're Christian-- darling, the only way you're going to get that is if you tack a big ol' crucifix in the middle of it.
 
Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
I don't really get how showing your hair is immodest. Low necklines, showing a lot of skin generally, tight-fitting clothes - I can see why they might not be thought modest, but hair? And why only women's hair?
Indeed. Covering the head has not signified modesty in mainstream Western cultures for at least a century and a half, probably longer (fringe groups like the Amish are intentionally anachronistic). In Euro-Western cultures, modesty means covering the torso and legs, and maybe the upper arms. The head is irrelevant.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Happy Headscarf & Mildly Pissed Off Headscarf
The Queen does "mildly pissed-off" soooo well, doncha think? [Big Grin]

Modesty in women has an interesting range. In the West it mostly means covering the butt, upper thighs and boobs and to a lesser degree the mid-drift. In much of the world, it's all those plus the shoulders and upper arms. In some very hot, tropical zones, you are okay if you just wear the correct genitalia coverage. In other places like parts of Afghanistan you show nothing but a blobby silhouette under a bunch of yardage. You can't be modest everywhere without being weird somewhere.

Besides modesty in generally comparative. This contemporary "modest" swim outfit would not be "modest" next to these nineteenth century styles, only next to twenty-first bathing fashions such as these. In other words, it's hard to dress modestly unless someone else IYO is dressing immodestly.
 
Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
Where I grew up Orhtodox women wore a sheitel.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
these nineteenth century styles
The two trollops on the right appear to be showing ankle. [Disappointed]
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
these nineteenth century styles
The two trollops on the right appear to be showing ankle. [Disappointed]
Oh Noes! [Eek!]

Well, you know how these supermodels are.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Bathing dresses? Is that what you put your wife in if you wanted to drown her?
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What about a buff - there are a huge variety of styles. You could get a black one if you felt strongly about it.

(What I would say is, if you are finding life tough at the moment: don't invite more problems into you life than you have to, so maybe cover your head if you feel you need to but do it in a way that isn't as likely to draw adverse attention as a hijab, you have enough on your plate already.)
Colour is not important, I love bright colours - but unfortunately those buffs are not covering enough for me.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Two thoughts.

Headscarves, snoods, wimples etc can look very elegant, but, if not actually denying, I'd query whether it is being evasive about ones faith if one wears it in a way that is likely to cause people to think one is a Moslem.

It might be an idea to wear a visible cross or to choose a quite different style - e.g like Russian women wear for church.

Also, I think other people are entitled to be able to see your face when you talk to them. Otherwise, in what way is that different from IRA balaclavas that cover the face with holes cut in them for eyes, nostrils and mouth? It's also discriminatory even against the partially deaf.
Er, hijabs cover the hair, neck and usually the bust, the face is entirely visible. You're thinking of the niqab.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

As for hijabs within Islam, it's not about women being responsible for men's behaviour. I am clearly not in a position to speak for Muslim women but it is not about oppression, it's about spiritual expression and ownership of one's own body, not having it for everyone to objectify.
I've got a really cool bridge to sell you. A bit damp around the edges this week, but it'll clean up nicely.

In some places women have been killed for showing their faces in public. That's not spiritual expression. Its not even ordinary oppression. Its slavery. Institutionalised rape as a means of social control.

And yes, there's nothing wrong with wearing a headscarf if you want. When I was a kid most working-class English women wore headscarves. Its just changing fashion. Maybe you'll start a trend.
A) hijabs show the face so women who have been killed for showing their faces are not hijabis - in such oppressive cultures the hijab is not considered covering or oppressive enough!

B) it is NOT about fashion for me
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I think I have something to add to this, as in 2011 I shaved 24 inches of hair off to raise money for a pediatric cancer charity.

I laid in a lovely selection of hats and caps and tiechels beforehand because, well, I was afraid I didn't have an attractively shaped head. I rarely wore my hats or caps or tiechels out because wahey! I have a nice shaped head.

I did tend to wear a baseball cap while commuting, because Oregon rain is COLD on your little bald skull even in July. My fancy dress I don't want to explain to people what happened to my hair go-to cover was a tiechel. I reaffirmed my baptismal vows on Pentecost wearing a sparkly red tiechel because I didn't want to subject the bishop to my prickly scalp.

I'm going to be shaving my head again next year, by the way. Everyone start saving your pennies to sponsor me. I'm going to have to get new curtains before then, though, I'm using a significant number of the tiechels as makeshift window coverings right now.

Now, for your desire for people to know that your headcovering is because you're Christian-- darling, the only way you're going to get that is if you tack a big ol' crucifix in the middle of it.
Actually it's the opposite - I don't want to be seen as a Christian hijacking something Islamic in a way that's offensive to Muslim women. I have no problem with people thinking I'm Muslim because I can easily refute that.
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
K- have just read your blog post, still not quite sure why you can't just wear a polo neck and a head scarf.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
K- have just read your blog post, still not quite sure why you can't just wear a polo neck and a head scarf.
Or a snood - they come in all types of fabric, or you could make your own.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Here's a product that you might like. It doesn't look exactly like what most Muslim women wear, but it looks easy to wear, and it meets your specifications for covering the head and neck.
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
How about this ? It's this type of covering that was a symbol of modesty, of the covering of God's grace and of being a Christian that was used up until the Medieval period when it became the veil for posh birds and then subsequently the dress apparel of nuns.

Edited to say, I reckon the Coptics have the best hats and head coverings of all the Christian traditions. I particularly like that huge cream egg one.

[ 05. November 2012, 09:35: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
 
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
A couple of years ago I had a clothing stall at the Greenbelt Festival. I met a lovely group of Christian women who came in to chat to me about making 'modest' clothing - I think they were attracted by my own garb of long hippy dresses and pantaloons with hair wrap (I had dreads) as well as my being a Christian stallholder. They were dressed in long dark skirts, loose dark tunics and headscarves which I think I remember were hijab in style. To be honest, I didn't bat an eyelid at what they were wearing and it was unobtrusive and discreet but I'm not exactly conventional myself. So I'm guessing you might want to experiment with that kind of styling first. In the end it is what you feel comfortable and confident wearing that matters.
 
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I think the style of scarf mentioned by fletcher christian would be modest and discreet without drawing too much attention.
 
Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :
 
I couldn't care less what people ware. I do have a problem when people suggest some sort of attire is more 'spiritual' than another. It sounds rather legalistic to do so.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I couldn't care less what people ware. I do have a problem when people suggest some sort of attire is more 'spiritual' than another. It sounds rather legalistic to do so.
I think that Jade is only saying dressing so feels spiritual to her. I really am not getting a holier-than-thou vibe here.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
and ownership of one's own body,
Ownership of one's own body (especially when one is female) is a fairly modern, western, ideal, and as such, is unlikely to be enshrined in ancient Islamic tradition. Or ancient* Christian tradition for that matter.
People don't own their own bodies. They are their bodies. There's a difference.

quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
[ When I was a kid most working-class English women wore headscarves. Its just changing fashion. Maybe you'll start a trend.
So did the Queen of England, no less - especially in winter at outdoor occasions. As far as I know, she still does so.
[/QB]
I'm sure she did but she didn't visit our council estate very often.

quote:


On the other hand, Those who leave only a slit for their eyes leave me feeling: here comes an object which may be a woman but could equally be a man with something to hide - and quite likely a bank robber, IRA bomber or worse - other wise why would they dress like this outside of a patriarchal theocracy like Iran?
As far as I know - and I haven't been there - most women in Iran do not cover their faces. And it certainly isn't compulsory. I think - I'm not 100% sure - the only countries where covering the face was compelled by law were Afghanistan under the Taliban and Saudi Arabia - well, not so much law as over-enthusiastic self-appointed religious police looking for any excuse to beat up women. Its probably effectively compulsory in a number of communities all over the world, if not enforced by law. But Iran is not particularly to the forefront of that. It seems to be more an Arab and African thing.

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
hijabs show the face so women who have been killed for showing their faces are not hijabis - in such oppressive cultures the hijab is not considered covering or oppressive enough!
Obviously, but its not really relevant to the point which is that this stuff really is partly about controlling other people's lives. And where women do have to go about covering their face - whether forced to by law or custom or the threat of violence - then they are being erased from public life. They are made irrelevant. Children are brought up in an environment where the only women they see are their immediate family and the rest of the world is male. Its one of the greatest crimes being committed in the world today, along with the literal destruction of millions of girls by selective abortion, and the thousands of young women murdered every year for wanting to marry the wrong person. Women are being systematically rubbed out of the picture, made invisible, irrelevant, ignorable, of no consequence or account.

You obviously aren't doing all that that but if you dress in a certain way it is like wearing a badge that says you support those who do. Your statement would be read wrongly by many - just as Hindus who use swastikas as a religious symbol can be misread here.
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
posted by Ken:

quote:

......if you dress in a certain way it is like wearing a badge that says you support those who do. Your statement would be read wrongly by many - just as Hindus who use swastikas as a religious symbol can be misread here.
So they should stop doing it in case stupid people misread it?
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Sorry to double post, but I thought I might add that there is one thing that is always missed out when discussion ensues about eh full hijab/burkah. In a very hot climate, to wear black silk that covers you head to foot, and very little else, can be a blessed relief. Although you want to see the colourful wrap types that are sported around Dubai. Revealing isn't the word [Eek!]
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Also, "Muslim" male head coverings can be found on Orthodox monks—or is it vice versa? See the fourth product down on this page.

Does anybody know the Russian or the Greek word for these monks' caps?
Looks like your basic skull cap. $39.95(US)!!! A bit high! At this moment I am wearing a black skull cap for which I paid $5 at a corner bodega in NYC.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Yes I have one like that in pale apple green but with a holey-work kind of embroidery round the bottom. Total cross-over from Muslim male head-covering but I bought it in a Jewish women's shop...go figure...

BTW, Jade C can you explain exactly what you're NOT finding outside of the hijab. Coz there is a whole range of Jewish head-covering that shows not a single strand. Or is it that 'round where you live hijab is the most easily available and cheap?
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
One of the youtube vloggers I follow is Gothmummi, a Christian woman who wears the hijab for spiritual reasons of modesty. I am considering using them for headcoverings for similar reasons (ie not because of headship or other expired equine topics). I just don't feel like the more standard headcoverings like bandannas etc feel right for me, and bonnets/kapps are out because I am far from Plain. I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
When you read Romans 14 in consideration of this, what is it telling you?
 
Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
Lots of us in London have Muslim women wearing Niqabs, usually black but some coloured. And a few have told me that their husband has insisted they wear it.
And little ones really have told me they love wearing pretty hijabs usually with gold bits at the front. Some are not told to wear them (by their parents) but choose to, before they are teenagers.
I only had to wear hijabs when I was teaching in Secondary schools, about all sorts of religions and we visited the various religion places where we had to be sensibly clothed. Also, some people going round the world have to wear hijabs for safety and legally then.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
One of the youtube vloggers I follow is Gothmummi, a Christian woman who wears the hijab for spiritual reasons of modesty. I am considering using them for headcoverings for similar reasons (ie not because of headship or other expired equine topics). I just don't feel like the more standard headcoverings like bandannas etc feel right for me, and bonnets/kapps are out because I am far from Plain. I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
When you read Romans 14 in consideration of this, what is it telling you?
That was referring to specifically pagan customs. Head coverings pre-date Islam by centuries. My Irish Catholic grandmother always covered her hair in church. I hope this thread isn't going to be weighed down with tiresome and unmerited islamaphobia.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
One of the youtube vloggers I follow is Gothmummi, a Christian woman who wears the hijab for spiritual reasons of modesty. I am considering using them for headcoverings for similar reasons (ie not because of headship or other expired equine topics). I just don't feel like the more standard headcoverings like bandannas etc feel right for me, and bonnets/kapps are out because I am far from Plain. I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
When you read Romans 14 in consideration of this, what is it telling you?
That was referring to specifically pagan customs. Head coverings pre-date Islam by centuries. My Irish Catholic grandmother always covered her hair in church. I hope this thread isn't going to be weighed down with tiresome and unmerited islamaphobia.
I hope she gets what I'm asking because you sure don't.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
One of the youtube vloggers I follow is Gothmummi, a Christian woman who wears the hijab for spiritual reasons of modesty. I am considering using them for headcoverings for similar reasons (ie not because of headship or other expired equine topics). I just don't feel like the more standard headcoverings like bandannas etc feel right for me, and bonnets/kapps are out because I am far from Plain. I have made a blog post about it but wanted to know if anyone here had thoughts on a white, obviously Christian woman wearing hijab for spiritual/religious reasons.
When you read Romans 14 in consideration of this, what is it telling you?
What? This verse?
quote:
So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. Romans 14:16

 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. Romans 14:16
Couldn't the first 6 verses be just as easily talking about a head covering? I've taken the first six and changed it to head coverings. Does it seem out of place, twisted, etc?

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith appears to compel them to cover their head, but another, whose faith is maybe a little different, is not so compelled. The one who covers must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not cover must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

One person considers a covered head more sacred than another; another considers every head alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards a covered head as special does so to the Lord. Whoever covers their head does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever goes bareheaded does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
So, Mere Nick, you don't have a problem with Jade putting on head-covering as long as she doesn't lord it over others, or make them feel inferior in faith? Frankly Paul seems to be doing such a good job of not blaming anyone in these verses that it's hard to tell what he really thinks of special devotional habits, except that he doesn't want anyone to break the peace over such things.
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
I'm sure he couldn't care less, apart from personal preference, but was too gracious to say.

We must go further and defend, honour, respect, love those who DO judge. Whether Muslims on the basis of their works or Roman Catholics on the basis of their second order mandatory distinctives.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
So, Mere Nick, you don't have a problem with Jade putting on head-covering as long as she doesn't lord it over others, or make them feel inferior in faith?
Right.

quote:
Frankly Paul seems to be doing such a good job of not blaming anyone in these verses that it's hard to tell what he really thinks of special devotional habits, except that he doesn't want anyone to break the peace over such things.
Yep. He seems to figure that some folks would benefit and others won't. It seems to me the best course is to just be glad to see them whatever they have on their head.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I'm sure he couldn't care less, apart from personal preference, but was too gracious to say.

We must go further and defend, honour, respect, love those who DO judge. Whether Muslims on the basis of their works or Roman Catholics on the basis of their second order mandatory distinctives.
Do Roman Catholics in, is it habits(?), really judge those who don't have one on their head? Isn't that more of a uniform type thing?
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Mere Nick, I meant their dogmata, which are as much works as the hijab or shaving the top lip and all pubic hair. Which are ALL ways of loving God.

[ 05. November 2012, 20:24: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Mere Nick, I meant their dogmata, which are as much works as the hijab or shaving the top lip and all pubic hair. Which are ALL ways of loving God.
The Brazilian Church of the Nether Wax? I didn't know that they cared about facial hair. Some splinter sect that misinterpreted the "labia" (Latin for "lips") in the old manuscripts, perhaps? Anyway, they have rather amusing trance states, don't they?

[ETA Links not safe for work - please remember to state this when relevant - DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 06. November 2012, 06:59: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Mere Nick, I meant their dogmata, which are as much works as the hijab or shaving the top lip and all pubic hair. Which are ALL ways of loving God.
While I still figure a sermon about bestiality would take the most guts the topic of pubic shaving certainly ain't for cowards.

[ 05. November 2012, 20:57: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Yes I have one like that in pale apple green but with a holey-work kind of embroidery round the bottom. Total cross-over from Muslim male head-covering but I bought it in a Jewish women's shop...go figure...

BTW, Jade C can you explain exactly what you're NOT finding outside of the hijab. Coz there is a whole range of Jewish head-covering that shows not a single strand. Or is it that 'round where you live hijab is the most easily available and cheap?
Oh hijab is far easier for me to get hold of than Jewish coverings! I can get hijabs really cheaply, whereas the Jewish population in the UK is relatively tiny and I don't live near any of the main centres (but can get hijab for a few pounds on ebay). I know Jewish coverings quite well but with hijab it covers my head, neck *and* bust which I haven't seen in Jewish coverings. To answer the question about why I couldn't wear a tichel and a polo neck, I am an E cup and polo necks without a disguising layer on top kind of defeat any modest intentions I may have had [Razz] A tichel would be seen as a hijab by Muslims here anyway, just a different kind (they are often called Spanish hijabs).

I did talk to a few of the Muslim students at the campus chaplaincy today about how they would feel about a Christian wearing hijab and interestingly they all considered a nun's veil to be basically hijab anyway and didn't consider it to be an exclusively Muslim garment. As long as I didn't do blatantly un-Islamic things while in hijab, they said, I wouldn't offend at all - and I don't smoke, drink alcohol (due to medication and expense) or eat pork (I find it too fatty) for unrelated reasons anyway.
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
You, Sir, brother, IngoB, made me laugh out loud. That NEVER happens. The weapons in your arsenal are formidable and appropriate indeed.

[ 05. November 2012, 20:58: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
posted by malik:

quote:

My Irish Catholic grandmother always covered her hair in church.
Now there is the solution - a mantilla
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by malik:

quote:

My Irish Catholic grandmother always covered her hair in church.
Now there is the solution - a mantilla
But it's sheer so it doesn't do the job I want a covering to do. Will probably go down the mantilla route for church to stop confusion though.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Grr, missed the edit window (can something please be done about that??). I would like to add that hijabs are not the only covering I would wear, I would almost certainly use varying styles depending on those I was around - I feel it would probably be more of a stumbling block to fellow-Christians to wear hijab, so I might wear a bandanna or hat with my hair tied up underneath so it's not visible, with a scarf covering my neck and chest. But hijab just seems to do what I want a covering to do.
 
Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
I find the whole high-fashion game, for men as well as women, a narcissistic waste of money, despite occasional intersting creativity. Oscar Wilde called it ugliness so complete that one is compelled to change it every three months (or words to that effect).

To see anyone reject it as thoroughly as a woman wearing a hijab is refreshing. One wants to call her "sister..."

[ 05. November 2012, 22:56: Message edited by: Alogon ]
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I find the whole high-fashion game, for men as well as women, a narcissistic waste of money, despite occasional intersting creativity. Oscar Wilde called it ugliness so complete that one is compelled to change it every three months (or words to that effect).

To see anyone reject it as thoroughly as a woman wearing a hijab is refreshing. One wants to call her "sister..."
One of the loveliest things I've seen at uni is the interaction between the male and female Muslim students. 'Brother' or 'sister' is just their regular greeting and the family-like atmosphere between them is very inspiring to me as a Christian.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I find the whole high-fashion game, for men as well as women, a narcissistic waste of money, despite occasional intersting creativity. Oscar Wilde called it ugliness so complete that one is compelled to change it every three months (or words to that effect).

To see anyone reject it as thoroughly as a woman wearing a hijab is refreshing. One wants to call her "sister..."
One of the loveliest things I've seen at uni is the interaction between the male and female Muslim students. 'Brother' or 'sister' is just their regular greeting and the family-like atmosphere between them is very inspiring to me as a Christian.
While very much agreeing with her on the destructive nature of the fashion industry (and I know some very dark tales), Jade has perhaps not heard the same stories I hear from Muslim women students about the behaviour behind the claims of brotherhood, of attempts at dominance and at sexual interest. I am told that some university societies are well-supervised and this is kept to a minimum, but in others this is not the case. Two of my former office's student employees, both observant, left their university Muslim associations on account of the behaviour of their "brothers." One of them kept to hijab but the other laid it aside to make it clear that she was not interested in brotherly guidance. The hijab-sporting student told me that the headscarf got her more respectful attitude from non-Muslim young men who treated her more seriously than if she were a (to paraphrase her language) boinkable porkchop.

However, to Jade's question. William Dalyrumple in his To The Holy Mountain argues that much Muslim practice and custom, both liturgical and in daily expression, is borrowed/adopted from Xty of that period. I wonder if the headscarf form of hijab is not perhaps an aspect of that, but would bow to someone who has greater knowledge than I. Other shipmates have posted how this is seen in some Orthodox circles--- I have only seen headscarf ŕ la hijab among Old Believers in Alberta, but perhaps this is a more authentic Xn approach than that of borrowing a Muslim one.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I find the whole high-fashion game, for men as well as women, a narcissistic waste of money, despite occasional intersting creativity. Oscar Wilde called it ugliness so complete that one is compelled to change it every three months (or words to that effect).

To see anyone reject it as thoroughly as a woman wearing a hijab is refreshing. One wants to call her "sister..."
Looks pretty high fashion to me. Modest as to skin and hair, but eye catching.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
All this is fascinating, and I have now learned what a tichel is and watched nine ways to tie them. Also, whatever you want to wear on your head is fine with me. I will bring out my tweed ivy cap for winter.

But, as far as the OP is concerned, wearing something that is unusual to your culture and/or station in life is not something that I would consider particularly "modest". Modesty in dress isn't simply about how many square inches of flesh are shown, it has to do with dressing in a way that others will consider decent, appropriate to the occasion, and in accord with one's position in society. The role dress plays in sexual attraction is certainly a part of that, but it is only a part. Depending on age, in my opinion a Christian woman in the West shows modesty more by a "normal" hair style or, in particular for older women, by wearing a regular head scarf. That will draw nobody's eyes. Furthermore, an unusual display of modesty is always suspect of false modesty. There is a problem when one ends up explaining to people that one is wearing something in order to be more modest. That contradicts the underlying humility, modesty should be a "silent" virtue. Ostentatious displays of virtue are warned heavily against in the gospels, and while I am not saying that the OP is suspect of this, the OP cannot simply say "I'm Muslim" and thereby imply the purpose without pointing to one's own virtues.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
While quaffing some amontillado at a jazz event earlier this evening, I benefitted by the discussion of three young women talking about their Hallowe'en outfits. One of them told us that she had decided that this year would be different and there would be no naughty nurse, etc. She determined to go as a nun.

We were informed that no brief or louche costume she had ever worn attracted as much lascivious attention as did the nun's outfit. One of her wannabee swains averred that his interest was greatly piqued by the fact that so much was covered. So it may be that the attitude of modesty is the relevant factor, rather than the precise garment.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Oh hijab is far easier for me to get hold of than Jewish coverings!

I think having to make huge logistic efforts for your quotidian religious life is really not what God had in mind.

Now I understand and I think that hijab is the perfect solution for your body.

The option of combining head-covering plus shawl is not flattering to anyone. It looks thrown together and raggy and you always have to be adjusting it. There are Jewish women here who do massive covering projects with more than one garment or layer and they are called "Taliban" in local slang.
This scruffiness is also my argument against women wearing a keffiya; however you wind/tie it you look like you just got off your (husband's/father's/father-in-law's) camel after a 3 week nomadic trek. Despite the fact it would be perfect for English weather. Or like you're just back from a demonstration about Middle East "peace" or lack thereof. (Which is more likely)
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
... But, as far as the OP is concerned, wearing something that is unusual to your culture and/or station in life is not something that I would consider particularly "modest". Modesty in dress isn't simply about how many square inches of flesh are shown, it has to do with dressing in a way that others will consider decent, appropriate to the occasion, and in accord with one's position in society. The role dress plays in sexual attraction is certainly a part of that, but it is only a part. Depending on age, in my opinion a Christian woman in the West shows modesty more by a "normal" hair style or, in particular for older women, by wearing a regular head scarf. That will draw nobody's eyes. Furthermore, an unusual display of modesty is always suspect of false modesty. There is a problem when one ends up explaining to people that one is wearing something in order to be more modest. That contradicts the underlying humility, modesty should be a "silent" virtue. Ostentatious displays of virtue are warned heavily against in the gospels, and while I am not saying that the OP is suspect of this, the OP cannot simply say "I'm Muslim" and thereby imply the purpose without pointing to one's own virtues.
I think IngoB is onto something here. I don't think it's just about what might attract the opposite sex. Whichever sex you are, is wearing clothes that are designed to 'make a statement', the walk of faith, a Christian concept? Is the desire to proclaim ones own personality to the world around you an admirable idea in the first place? Is the desire that people should notice you any more than a temptation, one that is more of a risk to some personalities than others?
 
Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
I think you have to look seriously at where you will be wearing the hijab. One of my students started wearing one when she started losing her hair through alopecia, given to her by a Muslim friend. It was all fine and dandy in the nicer parts of town but when she had to venture into an area with a lot of more conservative Muslims she narrowly avoided a beating for talking to a man. His attitude was that if you dress like a Muslim you have to act like one. This seems to be an attitide that has come about quite recently in this country, I certainly never got such abuse when I used to look like a Mujahideen deserter as a student.
 
Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I think you have to look seriously at where you will be wearing the hijab. One of my students started wearing one, given to her by a Muslim friend, when she began losing her hair through alopecia. It was all fine and dandy in the nicer parts of town but when she had to venture into an area with a lot of more conservative Muslims she narrowly avoided a beating for talking to a man. His attitude was that if you dress like a Muslim you have to act like one. This seems to be an attitide that has come about quite recently in this country, I certainly never got such abuse when I used to look like a Mujahideen deserter as a student.

 
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I think you have to look seriously at where you will be wearing the hijab. One of my students started wearing one when she started losing her hair through alopecia, given to her by a Muslim friend. It was all fine and dandy in the nicer parts of town but when she had to venture into an area with a lot of more conservative Muslims she narrowly avoided a beating for talking to a man. His attitude was that if you dress like a Muslim you have to act like one. This seems to be an attitide that has come about quite recently in this country, I certainly never got such abuse when I used to look like a Mujahideen deserter as a student.
So much for the argument about being treated with more respect by Muslims if you wear it.
 
Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think IngoB is onto something here. I don't think it's just about what might attract the opposite sex. Whichever sex you are, is wearing clothes that are designed to 'make a statement', the walk of faith, a Christian concept? Is the desire to proclaim ones own personality to the world around you an admirable idea in the first place?
I emphatically agree with your point. Getting up in light too dim to read by, I'm not often wide enough awake to even think of "making a statement." Just finding something clean and maybe even unwrinkled to stuff myself into is trouble enough. I claim no virtue here, only laziness, hoping it doesn't shade over into thoughtlessness.

But I'm surprised that IngoB would say anything against clerical collars or monastic habits. Whether intended by the wearer personally to make a statement or not, they do. They are not typical street dress. They distinguish the wearer from the general population, even if they are uniforms and those so attired pray fervently for the growth of their orders that they may be a little less unusual. As a layman, I wouldn't want it any other way.

Aren't hijabs the same?

[ 06. November 2012, 19:40: Message edited by: Alogon ]
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually it's the opposite - I don't want to be seen as a Christian hijacking something Islamic in a way that's offensive to Muslim women. I have no problem with people thinking I'm Muslim because I can easily refute that.
Uh, wearing a hijab, which is associated solely with Muslim women, is going to be seen as hijacking. Get a scarf, get a babushka, get a veil, even get a tiechel (just don't wander into a haredi community 'cause they'll think you're married). Leave the hijab to our Muslim sisters.
 
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think IngoB is onto something here. I don't think it's just about what might attract the opposite sex. Whichever sex you are, is wearing clothes that are designed to 'make a statement', the walk of faith, a Christian concept? Is the desire to proclaim ones own personality to the world around you an admirable idea in the first place?
I emphatically agree with your point. Getting up in light too dim to read by, I'm not often wide enough awake to even think of "making a statement." Just finding something clean and maybe even unwrinkled to stuff myself into is trouble enough. I claim no virtue here, only laziness, hoping it doesn't shade over into thoughtlessness.

But I'm surprised that IngoB would say anything against clerical collars or monastic habits. Whether intended by the wearer personally to make a statement or not, they do. They are not typical street dress. They distinguish the wearer from the general population, even if they are uniforms and those so attired pray fervently for the growth of their orders that they may be a little less unusual. As a layman, I wouldn't want it any other way.

Aren't hijabs the same?
Hijabs are the same, if you're Muslim, otherwise, no your comparison doesn't stand.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
But I'm surprised that IngoB would say anything against clerical collars or monastic habits. ... Aren't hijabs the same?
I didn't say anything against religious habits. As worn by religious in their daily duties, they are decent, appropriate to the occasion, and in accord with their position in society. They are also usual (if increasingly rare) to the culture and to the station in life of the religious, i.e., they are what religious are expected to wear. Hence they are in general modest. This is in spite of the fact that such habits make the religious stick out, because this "sticking out" has intentional signal value that serves social function, just like a police uniform.

The situation with the hijab is complicated by various cultural factors, but basically, if I decided to run around in Franciscan habit in order to express my dedication to God, then we would have a somewhat similar situation (given that I'm not a Franciscan, not even a tertiary, and do not intend to become one). I don't think that this would be terribly wrong, though somewhat odd, and perhaps it could even be considered as a kind of compliment to the Franciscans. Yet be that as it may, it sure wouldn't be modest. In particular, I would not be sticking out as part of the social function generally assigned to religious, but by individual choice. In some sense I would be appropriating what Franciscans are by adopting their habit, in order to signal who I am as an individual. That puts me at centre stage, and very practically so if I showed up like this at work (where people would know that I am not a Franciscan religious). And that's just not modest, whatever else it may be.
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
I think the poles must be shifting because I find myself agreeing with IngoB!

Around here we have a small but visible community of ueberfundamentalists whose dress codes for women include a rather odd combination of calf-length calico or denim dresses, knee socks and various types of snoods or headscarves. While I have no doubt that these women have been told they're modeling "modest" dress and sincerely believe that to be true, to me their unusual outfits scream, "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"

I just don't understand the motivation.

Then again, I'm a dumpy fifty-something whose dress of choice runs toward fleece shirts and matronly-cut jeans, and who wears her hair in what my mother used to call a "boyish bob." I'm not quite sure why my own non-embrace of the fashion industry doesn't count as "modesty" in some circles. Then again, it's not something we talk about in our church, which is mostly populated by fellow dumpy Midwesterners.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually it's the opposite - I don't want to be seen as a Christian hijacking something Islamic in a way that's offensive to Muslim women. I have no problem with people thinking I'm Muslim because I can easily refute that.
Uh, wearing a hijab, which is associated solely with Muslim women, is going to be seen as hijacking. Get a scarf, get a babushka, get a veil, even get a tiechel (just don't wander into a haredi community 'cause they'll think you're married). Leave the hijab to our Muslim sisters.
Interestingly the Muslims I've spoken to would see babushkas/veils etc as just different kinds of hijabs, hijab is just the Arabic word for scarf after all. And there is no haredi or any kind of Jewish community where I live.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I think the poles must be shifting because I find myself agreeing with IngoB!

Around here we have a small but visible community of ueberfundamentalists whose dress codes for women include a rather odd combination of calf-length calico or denim dresses, knee socks and various types of snoods or headscarves. While I have no doubt that these women have been told they're modeling "modest" dress and sincerely believe that to be true, to me their unusual outfits scream, "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"

I just don't understand the motivation.

Then again, I'm a dumpy fifty-something whose dress of choice runs toward fleece shirts and matronly-cut jeans, and who wears her hair in what my mother used to call a "boyish bob." I'm not quite sure why my own non-embrace of the fashion industry doesn't count as "modesty" in some circles. Then again, it's not something we talk about in our church, which is mostly populated by fellow dumpy Midwesterners.
Well I was never going to go down the frumper route [Biased] I know that kind of dressing from American blog friends back in my evangelical days and wasn't about to start dressing like it - just my usual style (jeans and t-shirts) but more coverage eg higher necklines. I think on consideration IngoB is right (and I am surprised myself by this too! [Biased] and leaving it at the more-coverage clothing will do.
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
But I'm surprised that IngoB would say anything against clerical collars or monastic habits. ... Aren't hijabs the same?
I didn't say anything against religious habits. As worn by religious in their daily duties, they are decent, appropriate to the occasion, and in accord with their position in society. They are also usual (if increasingly rare) to the culture and to the station in life of the religious, i.e., they are what religious are expected to wear. Hence they are in general modest. This is in spite of the fact that such habits make the religious stick out, because this "sticking out" has intentional signal value that serves social function, just like a police uniform.

The situation with the hijab is complicated by various cultural factors, but basically, if I decided to run around in Franciscan habit in order to express my dedication to God, then we would have a somewhat similar situation (given that I'm not a Franciscan, not even a tertiary, and do not intend to become one). I don't think that this would be terribly wrong, though somewhat odd, and perhaps it could even be considered as a kind of compliment to the Franciscans. Yet be that as it may, it sure wouldn't be modest. In particular, I would not be sticking out as part of the social function generally assigned to religious, but by individual choice. In some sense I would be appropriating what Franciscans are by adopting their habit, in order to signal who I am as an individual. That puts me at centre stage, and very practically so if I showed up like this at work (where people would know that I am not a Franciscan religious). And that's just not modest, whatever else it may be.
This is a sound argument so far as it addresses the subject and nature of modesty in the pubic sphere. The problem with it, AFAIC, is that it is predicated upon the unbiblical notion of 'religious' as a special sub-category of the laity to whom special rules apply. Of course, I recognise the fact that these people do exist and that IngoB's use of them as an example is good. What I don't agree with is the idea that 'religious' are in any way entitled - or required - to dress more modestly merely by virtue of an invented category of Christian to which they are deemed to belong.

[ 07. November 2012, 09:10: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
This is a sound argument so far as it addresses the subject and nature of modesty in the pubic sphere. The problem with it, AFAIC, is that it is predicated upon the unbiblical notion of 'religious' as a special sub-category of the laity to whom special rules apply. Of course, I recognise the fact that these people do exist and that IngoB's use of them as an example is good. What I don't agree with is the idea that 'religious' are in any way entitled - or required - to dress more modestly merely by virtue of an invented category of Christian to which they are deemed to belong.
Seriously? [Disappointed]

The idea of a religious Christian community you can find in Acts 4:32-37. The reason why that requires special dedication of the members, or will fail, can be found in Acts 5:1-11. That special dedication to God can usefully be indicated to others by outer signs is shown by the hair of the Nazirites (Numbers 6:5) and the mantle of the prophet (1 Kgs 19:13,19; 2 Kgs 2:8,13-14; Zech 13:4). Of course, St John the Baptist was a Nazirite from birth (Lk 1:15) and wore a hairshirt (Mt 3:4) to indicate his mission of repentance to others. The latter is a type of the sackcloth that we can find ubiquitously mentioned in the bible as outer sign of repentance, e.g., Psalm 35[34]:13. It is not entirely clear what St Paul himself and the four men under a similar vow are doing in Acts 18:18,21:23-24. Perhaps it is a Nazirite vow (i.e., growing your hair from a fresh shave), perhaps it is a kind of tonsure, but it certainly is an outer sign of a Christian vow as well.

So we can conclude that while on an anal reading of scripture we do not find any monks or nuns there, both their special dedication to God in a community of like-minded people and the outer manifestation of such dedication in their habits can be motivated easily from scripture. The vocation of a religious is simply a creative and inspired way of obeying the First Great Commandment. It is also, of course, a vocation open to all Christians. Religious orders are not exclusive, and right from the beginning they have drawn people from all walks of life, abandoning their differences in a shared dedication to the Lord.

It is in my opinion tedious and uncharitable to attack the religious over their habits. And the idea of an "entitlement to dress more modestly" is simply paradoxical. Everybody is free to dress as modestly as they want, and it is impossible to aim to "out-modest" someone (because that would be false modesty). Religious habits nowadays indeed would be less modest than most dress, in the sense of drawing strong attention, except that their standing out is an intended and generally accepted social sign. And the religious are required to wear their habit as outer manifestation of their desired dedication and freely taken vows. There is no sense in which this is restricting their Christian faith, it is expressing it.
 
Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :
 
I'd like to see a community where nobody takes offence at clothes. Where the woman in the silk dress and big hat, the bloke with shoulder-length hair and oversized red jumper, the Junoesque blonde in the off-the shoulder T-shirt, the lad in skin-tight jeans and Goth chains, the chap in suit and collar and tie, the extremely scruffy bell-ringer in jeans and fleece (occasionally covered in cobwebs and jackdaw twigs), the girl with a glitzy bandanna - all go unremarked except with an appreciative nod to their individuality and style. Come to think of it, I do see it – every Sunday in our local parish church. In Britain you can wear what you want within very broad limits, so - wear what you want and good luck to you JadeConstable.
But a bit of a warning – people seem to get much more upset at having their preconceptions overturned than they do at a clear unambiguous statement in the first place. I speak Esperanto and used to wear the Esperanto green star badge in the Manchester shop where I worked, many of the customers being visitors from abroad. I had no idea that it was also a Moslem symbol until a young Moslem woman (who had been a very friendly regular customer) spotted that I was also wearing a cross, and stormed out. She never came back. I had to get a less Ba-athist looking badge.
 


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