Thread: Sparkling Poppies Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
I don't normally watch 'Strictly come dancing' , but did because we had visitors. I noticed that everyone -- competitors, panel and audience alike were wearing poppies with a sparkling effect.

I known this topic gets aired most years, but I was brought up to believe the poppy, which grew in mud and blood, was a symbol of the utter futility of war.
The Haig fund was set up to help the veterans and wounded of WW1, it also restored a modecom of credibility to a General who was widely blamed for needless casualties.

Now here it is some 90 years later with something of a makeover . I get the feeling it is increasingly worn as an emblem of support for foreign wars, and giving it the glitz treatment make one feel as if the idea of war is again becoming glorious like it was Summer of 1914.

Maybe there's nothing wrong with that ?

[ 04. November 2012, 20:24: Message edited by: rolyn ]
 
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
Maybe it's a pond thing but as I understand it the poppy is used to show support for veterens, not to show the futility of war.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
It's not to show support of anyone. It's a symbol of remembrance for those who lost their lives in armed conflict.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
In Canada, it is as Spike says. Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more.

I was rather offended when I was in Washington DC on a Remembrance Day. They seemed to be focussing almost exclusively on "supporting the troops" in their current wars. Lip service only given to remembrance as I have always understood it.

Thankfully I found a painfully high anglo-catholic church which sang in Latin, as the rain came pouring down. It was among the most beautiful sung eucharists I've attended both for the music and the malicious pleasure at thinking of wet troop supporters and politicians.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
It's not to show support of anyone. It's a symbol of remembrance for those who lost their lives in armed conflict.
That's what I've always understood them to signify. But it does get muddled on this side of the pond, as the poppies are associated with Nov. 11, which for us is Veterans Day, a day to honor veterans. We have Memorial Day to honor those who have died in war in May. Memorial Day has roots in the American Civil War.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Regardless of what the day means, choosing to wear a glittery poppy is like wearing a black sequined and rhinestoned dress to a funeral.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I was rather offended when I was in Washington DC on a Remembrance Day. They seemed to be focussing almost exclusively on "supporting the troops" in their current wars. Lip service only given to remembrance as I have always understood it.
See my post above regarding Veterans Day and Memorial Day in the States. Prior to WWII November 11 was called Armistice Day in the US, as it was in many other countries. It was never called Remembrance Day here.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
US side of the pond, here.

Never seen glittery poppies. IIRC, the Veterans of Foreign Wars sell regular poppies as buttoniers (sp?). It's done around our Veteran's Day.

Maybe the glittery poppies mean something else? And maybe lots of folks don't know the meaning we're discussing here?
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
If you wish to acknowledge the futility of war and determination to avoid another, you may wish to consider a white poppy in addition to or instead of a red:
http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I think poppy wearing in general is far more pronounced in the UK.

The last episode of the Graham Norton Show that aired here, people on the show were wearing poppies. Apparently this episode aired 2 November in the UK. Here in Australia I would think it rather odd to see someone wearing a poppy that far ahead of the actual day.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Maybe the glittery poppies mean something else? And maybe lots of folks don't know the meaning we're discussing here?
No - they all come from the same place.

All this extra poppy paraphernalia is a relatively new thing, it started with huge car poppies a few years ago.
 
Posted by Moominpappa (# 12044) on :
 
I notice from the RBL stalls that I saw at the weekend, that they do all sorts of poppy related paraphenalia now. My daughter is very taken with the poppy wristbands (which come in both adult and child sizes).

Is anybody else slightly uncomfortable with the way that poppy wearing is becoming almost compulsory now though? There is a big RBL advert outside where I work which is a picture of a man's chest with a blank space on the left breast in the shape of a poppy; strapline 'are you missing something?' It seems a bit demanding to me, but perhaps I'm just being sensitive.

(As I was probably being when I felt a bit uncomfortable after we shoe-horned the national anthem into last year's rememberance service. Surely the point of rememberance sunday is not about being patriotic?)
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moominpappa:

(As I was probably being when I felt a bit uncomfortable after we shoe-horned the national anthem into last year's rememberance service. Surely the point of rememberance sunday is not about being patriotic?)
Indeed. At the end of our Parish Mass on Remembrance Sunday, we sing the National Anthem in place of the final hymn which drives me potty. If we were singing it as a hymn, we'd leave during it but we don't. Which makes it nationalist claptrap.

Thurible
 
Posted by Moominpappa (# 12044) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Indeed. At the end of our Parish Mass on Remembrance Sunday, we sing the National Anthem in place of the final hymn which drives me potty. If we were singing it as a hymn, we'd leave during it but we don't. Which makes it nationalist claptrap.
Ah good; it's not just me then.
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I do get concerned at the increasing sense in Britain that wearing a poppy is compulsory for all decent people. Despite what Spike says above, it would be my perception that the lines between remembering the fallen, supporting our troops and supporting the military policies of the government of the day are getting more and more blurred. I'm fine with the first, would want to ask a little bit more about precisely what the second signified and as for the third...
 
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :
 
I didn't realise that there was all this extra stuff now; I do find it rather tasteless.

I'm ambivalent about the poppy and remembrance, not because of its essential meaning, but the way that it goes a bit astray towards the militaristic. I am a staunch pacifist of long standing.

But I do try to make the Dawn Service on Anzac Day, and I'll probably head down the road to the Australian War Memorial after church and lay a poppy on the Tomb of the Unknown Australian Soldier.

When I was in the UK I never liked the way that remembrance was handled on Sunday at church. I much preferred to be in a public place at 11am on 11 November, the supermarket even, to join with others in a simple two minute silence. I found the increasing observance on 11 November to be appropriate. But I didn't like the clear you-must-wear-a-poppy rule in the public sphere generally.

In fact, I'm doing the prayers of the people at church on Sunday. That will take great care.
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
Idly browsing a well-known internet auction site, a pop-up ad offered me one of these .

I note that a mighty 10% of the sale price is donated by the seller to the British Legion.

I'm struck by the depressing thought that some poppy wearers may consider their gesture of support (in adorning their precious personhood with the charity 'brand') to be more important than the sum of money they donate for actual charity work.

Or perhaps my narcissism detector has gone a bit hair-trigger again.
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I don't like the becoming 'something all decent people do' feeling you get with the wearing of poppies now, either. It is certainly something that has increased over the last few years - I think it is partly, but only partly, to do with Iraq and Afghanistan. I do remember some years ago, it seemed to be dying out somewhat and there was a bit of media outrage, in the way media does outrage - I think that changed something too (that outrage also seemed to increase the number of people observing the 2 minutes silence at 11 o'clock on 11 November in a way they didn't 25-30 years ago - although I like that).

To continue the grumpy old woman theme, poppies seem to go on sale earlier every year - mid to late October this year.

I have always worn a poppy but last year, in a rather futile and childish gesture (because of the concerns above) I deliberately didn't wear one to the Remembrance Day service at church (I don't suppose anyone noticed or cared if they did).

I haven't got one this year yet; I suppose I shall at some stage.

M.
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
I too dislike the sense that wearing a poppy, and wearing it from 1 November onwards, is compulsory for all decent people over here.
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
It seems to me that the buying of a sparkly poppy means you can wear it for the next four decades without ever having to buy another one or make any donation. A way of saying, 'Look at me, I made a fashion accessory out of misery and senseless death'.

I actually don't mind the pressure to get one (not that I have ever worn one). All charities do this type of thing and sadly they have to. It's a way of generating much needed cash. What does sit uncomfortably with me though is the Legion's desire to write liturgy; especially that mawkish nonsense about 'Go home and tell them they died for your freedom'. Well, in church I tend to think that someone else died for my freedom, and I'm really not convinced that every war of the twentieth and twenty-first century has actually had much to do with 'my freedom'.
 
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 
There does seem to be something 'wrong' with poppy bling - even if it does make money for the Royal British Legion. The point of a poppy is surely remembrance; the point of a glittery poppy is to look nice. But I suppose blinged-up crosses aren't hard to find, even in liturgical use.


And no doubt the annual Jon Snow* isn't wearing a poppy story will come round again.


*A British newsreader, who, I believe, wears a poppy on November 11 but not before.

[ 05. November 2012, 10:01: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I'd like to wear a white poppy in remembrance of civilian non-combatants who died, as I have an academic interest in the female doctors and nurses of the First World War. I particularly admire Dr Elizabeth Ross who died in Serbia, and who is buried alongside nurse Mabel Dearmer (first wife of Percy). Their graves aren't maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission because they were civilians.

However, I think I'd get a hostile reaction from the local British Legion if I wore a white poppy to church. Perhaps I should try and see!
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
quote:
'Look at me, I made a fashion accessory out of misery and senseless death'.
It's not just me then.

On the re-use angle, some elderly ladies of my acquaintance save their poppies so as not to have to take one when they make a donation in following years, thus maximising the impact of their donation. Austere habits of a 1940s childhood appear to die hard.
 
Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :
 
I bought a tiny poppy pin this year, only because I am always losing conventional poppies. However I have every intention of making a donation in future years, if only because I probably won't be able to find this one even next week.

I tend not to attend Remembrance services, if only because I attended many while my children were in Scouts. Also, the church is always packed, so they probably need my space more than my presence.

It's always hard to sort out what is legitimate fund-raising for charities, but there is plenty of scope for the good work the Legion do (and I think they are feeling the pinch like everyone else). So selling sparkly poppies is probably no worse than sending out unsolicited Christmas cards and address labels (Unicef I'm looking at you here)

Mrs. S, promoting ethical fundraising
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
quote:
So selling sparkly poppies is probably no worse than...
Even when the seller keeps 90% of the revenue? See upthread.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
'Look at me, I made a fashion accessory out of misery and senseless death'.
It's not just me then.

On the re-use angle, some elderly ladies of my acquaintance save their poppies so as not to have to take one when they make a donation in following years, thus maximising the impact of their donation. Austere habits of a 1940s childhood appear to die hard.
When I made my donation, I had to turn down extra poppy stuff. Alright I am generous, but then I think I ought to be with the British Legion, although I think it a shame on this country that their work is necessary. If we ask, and my country does on my behalf, people to risk their lives for us, then the least we can do is make sure they are well looked after. However I really rather my country didn't, but as it does and that ain't going to change soon, I think it is important to recognise what we are asking people to do in our name.

Therefore the competitive nationalism that associates greater support with wearing more poppy merchandise I find sticks in my gut. What we give is miniscule beside what is asked and I do not think public display is anyway to behave around an event that must be difficult for many people.

I wear a white poppy simply because I also want to say something of my desire that it was otherwise.

Jengie
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Another white poppy wearer here.

It seems to me that red poppies are more common than they were two decades ago. Then, there were a lot of white poppies, some worn with the red as well.

It feels like the red poppies are 'winning'. However, much to the annoyance of the British legion, the popular sentiment of most red poppy wearers is to remember civilian and enemy dead in all wars, not just 'our' dead in the two world wars.
 
Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
So selling sparkly poppies is probably no worse than...
Even when the seller keeps 90% of the revenue? See upthread.
Sorry, MiM, I thought we were talking about the official British Legion ones , which cost half that amount with all proceeds to the Legion. My mistake

Mrs. S, in error again
 
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think poppy wearing in general is far more pronounced in the UK.

The last episode of the Graham Norton Show that aired here, people on the show were wearing poppies. Apparently this episode aired 2 November in the UK. Here in Australia I would think it rather odd to see someone wearing a poppy that far ahead of the actual day.
Every year it appears to be increasingly competitive over here, it's profoundly depressing. It used to just be an "on the day" thing, or at worst an "on the day and on the Sunday" thing. In the last few years it's spread backwards into the weekend, then the preceding week, and now the preceding fortnight, pretty much.

I have no evidence, but it feels like a media/politics driven arms race (sic) to be Seen To Be Doing The Right Thing, coupled with fear of accusations that you are Off Message. And presumably a desire to win gold at the fake compassion Olympics.

To which end, I'll buy one, and I'll stick it on for church on the Sunday. And it won't see the light of day before or after. And each year I edge ever closer to just making the donation and not taking a poppy, or getting a white one instead. The over-extension of the timescale diminishes rather than emphasises any sense of respect or remembrance AFAIAC.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
In Canada, it is as Spike says. Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more.

I was rather offended when I was in Washington DC on a Remembrance Day. They seemed to be focussing almost exclusively on "supporting the troops" in their current wars.
Re the U.S. increasing emphasis on "supporting the troops", today's New York Times has an opinion piece of relevance by a professor at the U.S. Naval Academy.

The Permanent Militarization of America
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

It seems to me that red poppies are more common than they were two decades ago. Then, there were a lot of white poppies, some worn with the red as well.

It feels like the red poppies are 'winning'.
Whenever I see stastics on red vs white poppies that is what they show. The only thing is I've never seen a white poppy to buy anywhere, and red poppies can be bought in any supermarket, library and many churches. Although as previous posters have stated, I don't think the emphasis should be on wearing the poppy at all.
 
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
Last year I joined the civic remembrance service in one of the small towns where I have churches.

I have done this for a few years but my first here, and I do find the 'Vow to thee my country', national anthem, and other hymns I had not met before a difficult part of the Official Legion Civic service set up.

Last year I had tracked down (via a friend)a white poppy, I wore 2 red and 1 white twisted together. I was brave but not that brave! As a key figure in the community and upfront in the service I didn't want to be seen to declare war on the Legion, but did want to show that alongside respect for the dead of many wars I also was proclaiming a desire that it not happen again. (If only!)

This year I am at a different place for the Parish event but will be ready for my evening service and freedom to reflect more widely.
I do get to lead the prayers in the morning and they are not preset in the info I have been sent... a lot to consider in them, may not risk extempore.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
I've never seen a white poppy to buy anywhere, and red poppies can be bought in any supermarket, library and many churches. Although as previous posters have stated, I don't think the emphasis should be on wearing the poppy at all.
Agree.

White poppies are hard to come by. My church orders them in bulk and sells them after mass.

Have to be organised.

On the other hand, one can buy a red poppy and tippex white over them.

That way, you pays your dues and makes a statement as well.
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more. ...
Remembering, yes. Avoiding, no.

The Royal Canadian Legion:
quote:
Since 1921, the Poppy has stood as a symbol of Remembrance, our visual pledge to never forget all those Canadians who have fallen in war and military operations. The Poppy also stands internationally as a “symbol of collective reminiscence”, as other countries have also adopted its image to honour those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
The Royal British Legion says,
quote:
The poppy is an instantly recognisable symbol of respect for those who've made the ultimate sacrifice in conflicts past and present. As the nation's custodian of Remembrance, the Legion is committed to helping everyone understand the importance of Remembrance, so those sacrifices are never forgotten.
The final verse of In Flanders Fields:
quote:
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields.
Nothing there about preventing future wars.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
I share much of the opinion expressed above . Each year I find my feelings around Remembrance Day to be split down the middle, teetering somewhere between pride/respect and pity.

I've not come across white Poppies around these parts, but thinking about it the wearing of a white one , (the ideology of pacifism), next to a red one, (the reality of bloodshed), would be apt.
Certainly a far truer expression my personal feelings on this matter than the fashion accessories I witnessed the other night.
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
I find the stench of nationalism that surrounds remembrance to be pretty unpleasant. This morning at work my boss read out a list of the number of deaths of British service personnel in Afghanistan since the invasion. No mention of how many Afghans have died, just the list of British dead and the claim that they died doing something for us.

Now, I feel sorry for the poor bastards caught up in that Imperial adventure but they're not there on my behalf and I feel just as sorry for the people they've killed. The difference with the British soldiers is that they volunteered for the job, no-one made them join up (with the possible exception of a few young cons who are "encouraged" to join up instead of prison).

The glorification of war and the idolising of warriors seems worst kind of capitulation to the ruler of this world I can imagine - accepting war means accepting utilitarianism, accepting anything so long as you can find a way of justifying it. I don't blame anyone for that capitulation - I'm not sure I could resist if I were faced with the stark choice of it and it's all too easy to speak in boastful hypotheticals about one's committment to peace while sitting safely behind a thousand years of warfare that brought about the society that one lives in.

It's hard to know what would happen to a society of pacifists without the protection of a non-pacifist one, but it seems likely that death and/or violent subjugation and oppression would follow swiftly. And yet it seems that this is what the first Christians endured for their faith, and what Christ and the Apostles endured also. What can it mean to say we follow Christ if we are yet willing to do violence to those who we believe our enemies?
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Arethosemyfeet. I'm nodding like Bob DeNiro. By nature, by 59 years, I'm so patriotic I can barely breathe sometimes. And it will always be thus. A soldier passed me by on Leicester's New Walk last week and I just wanted to say 'God bless you.'. But I didn't.

As for the OP, it's for the fallen. OUR fallen. My fallen.

But the myth of redemptive violence is being ripped from my heart. And it hurts.

But so does Hiroshima. Though it saved a million Allied lives including my father's.

I am now more and more and MORE convinced that we are to be pacifist ... FIST?! ... but not ALWAYS passively.

That we are to lay our lives down to and for our enemies.

And I just bought a fist full of poppies and always will.

I nod because you are terribly right and I have been wrong all my life.

Conflict-ed eh? [Smile]
 
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[A]nd makes a statement as well.
That is presumably why red poppies will always 'win' against white poppies.

Wearing a red poppy, it seems to me, is about remembering the sacrifice of our war dead, without making a comment about the war in which they were fighting. One could, for instance, believe that the Iraq War was illegal, that Tony Blair and George W. Bush should be put on trial for war crimes and that the entire war was futile and yet still wear a red poppy with pride.

White poppies are new to me but having looked at the website for the Peace Pledge Union, which makes them, it seems clear that they are an outfit with a political point of view, that all war in wrong in any circumstances. That's a rather controversial point of view to which many do no subscribe.

Furthermore, although the PPU is clear about what it wants to get rid of, it isn't so clear about how to achieve this. The only reference to this that I could find says:

quote:
Some ways of bringing pacifism to public attention demand courage and stamina, especially in places where it is regarded as a threat to the vested interests of war. Some people disobey the law by withholding part of their income tax (and paying the money into peace trusts instead) proportional to the percentage of the national budget spent on war. Others risk arrest and imprisonment by making 'direct action' protests: entering prohibited areas occupied by military installations, setting up peace camps on or beside military sites, or disabling machinery intended for use in war.
If this is the PPU's outlook on the world, then I can't imagine any but a small minority wearing their poppies.
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
Wearing a white poppy doesn't mean you support everything the PPU says or everything its members do. It simply means that you don't feel it is appropriate to remember only the military dead of one side and not commit yourself to avoiding conflict in the future. That said, regardless of interpretation generalised anti-war sentiment is not a popular opinion, even among churchgoers.

[ 05. November 2012, 21:10: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Hmmm. As long as they suffer, pay for their principles and NEVER use the methods of Babylon against it ... but I'd still have to wear a red poppy. May be a white too ...
 
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more. ...
Remembering, yes. Avoiding, no.

The Royal Canadian Legion:
quote:
Since 1921, the Poppy has stood as a symbol of Remembrance, our visual pledge to never forget all those Canadians who have fallen in war and military operations. The Poppy also stands internationally as a “symbol of collective reminiscence”, as other countries have also adopted its image to honour those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
The Royal British Legion says,
quote:
The poppy is an instantly recognisable symbol of respect for those who've made the ultimate sacrifice in conflicts past and present. As the nation's custodian of Remembrance, the Legion is committed to helping everyone understand the importance of Remembrance, so those sacrifices are never forgotten.
The final verse of In Flanders Fields:
quote:
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields.
Nothing there about preventing future wars.
It's always seemed to me that the purpose of remembrance is twofold: to engender vigilance, so we avoid conflict by seeing warning signs early; to engender understanding of the pity and suffering of war, so we avoid being swept up in propaganda or fervour.

That's what I wear my poppy for.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
My problem with red poppies is that propaganda and fervour is exactly what they produce. Even though they are not *supposed* to be about glorifying the military, glorification of the military and nauseating nationalism does accompany the poppy day events. It becomes about Our Brave Boys and not about all who died in wars, whether brave or cowards, winners or losers, Allied or Axis, military or civilian. Added to this the many conscientious objectors who died while doing wartime service down the mines or as medics etc, I cannot in good conscience wear a red poppy.

However, I do not wish to intrude on others' grief and make it about my views by wearing a white poppy. I simply wear no poppy.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
It's always seemed to me that the purpose of remembrance is twofold: to engender vigilance, so we avoid conflict by seeing warning signs early; to engender understanding of the pity and suffering of war, so we avoid being swept up in propaganda or fervour.
Unfortunately that purpose was not achieved in the 30s , although to be fair is wasn't this country that got swept up in propaganda second time round. Pretty much a mood of resignation I imagine.

I suspect my view that poppies should worn purely out of pathos came from my parents . Both grew up in the 20's and 30's when the country was haunted by the shadow of WW1 . Then having come through WW2 they had no desire to glorify warfare.

With the threat of a total nuclear annihilation hanging over us from the 60s onwards I think poppies came to represent the sacrifice of long past wars, while being attached to a vague pacifist message re. the absurdity of a modern-day World War.

Now Remembrance day, and the wearing of poppies has found renewed importance maybe we ought not be surprised to see it being taken on board by secular celebrity culture . It's something that seems to be constantly metamorphosing .
Even when the Haig fund was set up 1921, I doubt if the true representation of poppy wearing was actually any more clear than it is today.
 
Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :
 
I noticed that change in emphasis around the time of the Falklands Fiasco. People started saying "This isn't just about a war that happened 50 years ago. This is about today's servicemen dying for today's issues." Ever since then I think we've been a bit more keen to see the poppy appeal as being about "our lads" and less about our parents' and grandparents' wars. (And a bit more keen to send our soldiers into combat, it seems to me, though I don't have any stats to back it up.)
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... Remembering the lost lives, hoping to avoid more. ...
Remembering, yes. Avoiding, no.

The Royal Canadian Legion:
quote:
Since 1921, the Poppy has stood as a symbol of Remembrance, our visual pledge to never forget all those Canadians who have fallen in war and military operations. The Poppy also stands internationally as a “symbol of collective reminiscence”, as other countries have also adopted its image to honour those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.
quote:
Nothing there about preventing future wars.
Please do not assume that because somebody honours those that did that they EVER want to send somebody else to do that again.

I do not wear any poppy.

I do not support war.

I do support those who went; they went through hell because we screwed up. To me that's a basic social justice tenet.
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
On November 11 here in Australia, politicians and anyone on the telly (newsreaders, sports commentators) wear poppies, but it appears to me that fewer and fewer ordinary people do, though I suspect that many, like me, buy one if they pass a seller and then lose track of it.

At a practical level, fewer and fewer men wear suits, on which a poppy looks appropriate.

No-one at our church, for example, wears a jacket and tie these days, and a poppy doesn’t look quite the same on a t-shirt or sweat-top.

Then there is the problem that those of us (the great majority, I suspect) who are not doctrinaire pacifists, want to express our remembrance of those who suffered and died in all wars, but regard some conflicts as far more justifiable than others, and think of the poppy as specific to WWI ("Flanders field"), a comparatively useless conflict.

We need a more differentiable symbol which would enable us to say, “I wish to honour in particular those who suffered and died while confronting vile ideologies such as Nazism, communism and Islamofascism”.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I normally buy one on my way up Martin Place in the morning and wear it that day on my suit. I can't recall if the selling is done on Friday when Armistice Day falls on a weekend. If they're on sale tomorrow, I'll buy one as usual. I can't recall seeing anyone wear a poppy for a week or more beforehand. Another difference is that the poppies sold here are furled buds, rather than the open flower which seems the UK practice. Finally, the silence here is for 1 minute only.

At church, we'll have the Last Post, silence and Reveille just before the dismissal. A good half or more of men wear jackets to church, and many of those with ties.
 
Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :
 
Forced to travel on the trains this week by a puncture, I notice that the Jubilee line trains all had a poppy transfer stuck on front of them. Also noticed from following other links that the poppy appears on the Telegraph online masthead. (and the other Tory rags too)
 
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Forced to travel on the trains this week by a puncture, I notice that the Jubilee line trains all had a poppy transfer stuck on front of them. Also noticed from following other links that the poppy appears on the Telegraph online masthead. (and the other Tory rags too)
Not just the "Tory rags". I think newspapers have long displayed a poppy on their masthead at this time of year. Not sure of the point of the ones on trains though. They're all over the DLR, too.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The Central Line didn't have poppies on Tuesday, I'll check to see if they have any today.

Those sparkly poppies on the costumes for Strictly Come Dancing were silly, and I would bet that they were made by the costume department and no money went to the Royal British Legion, which is the point of those poppies. It's also silly because they're broadcasting the next show this Saturday, 10th November, so poppies will no doubt be worn again.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Interestingly this subject was aired on the Radio 2 dinner-time slot . It was a fairly well balanced debate as to whether people felt they were being 'bullied' into wearing poppies this year.
The term 'poppy fascism' was also used . That's one I heard on the Ship all of 2 years ago, so the rising tension over poppy wearing appears to have gone mainstream .

One caller said he annually put £10 in the British Legion fund but chose not wear a poppy . While out shopping he bought some flowers for his wife, the young cashier made a jibe that went -- "£15 for for flowers yet too tight to buy a poppy".
Another caller said we should all just "man-up", wear a poppy and show support for our boys on the front-line.

I fully expect, next year, to be handed a white feather for opening not wearing a poppy 10 days before Remembrance Sunday.
 
Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :
 
How is wearing a sparkly poppy any worse than wearing one of these?
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The Royal British Legion fundraise by selling poppies so wearing sparkly poppies that have come from a different source that means no donations to the RBL to help those causes, just a political statement.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Right, there has been a history of the Red Poppy being seen as pro-militarism and among many a distrust of militarism stemming right back to the first world war.

Militarism in this sense is not outright pacificism but the glorification of military and war. A person who holds that having a well trained, professional army is a necessary evil to be used as a last resort is not guilty of militarism.

Those who build romantic notions of war and the nature of soldiers, who think that it is good to flex our military muscle and that there is something sexy about the military or something that means unlike other institution such as the Health Service the military should be above criticism are guilty of Militarism.

This group tend to rise in the years before war. You hear the hollowness of where that can lead in Wilfrid Owen's Poem Dulce and Decorum est. So when wearing the red poppy comes about supporting our boys and the big, the brighter the more support you are giving, I suspect a fair few start to feel sick as we are once again into "Dulce and Decorum" discourse. In that war is becoming devoid of its reality (a dirty expensive engagement nations should do their utmost to avoid) and becoming about sentiment.

Jengie
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
The electronic signs at a major regional shopping centre near us were yesterday asking people to turn off their mobile phones for the 11 am silence. Not that many years ago - it may have been the 2008, 90th year, observation, shops and shopping centres dimmed their lights and cash registers stopped at 11.

The major observations here remain on Anzac Day, a public holiday and with almost all shops closed during the morning. When we were children, all shops and service (ie gas or petrol) stations were closed all day.
 
Posted by Sleepwalker (# 15343) on :
 
I have been wearing a red poppy from the British Legion in the run up to Remembrance Day every year since I was old enough to do so and I am very comfortable with doing so. It is a good thing to remember those who have given their lives when called up to do so as it is the ultimate sacrifice. I think that the reason poppy wearing has become popular again (I remember a time when it was not, and indeed when there was discussion about whether to abandon remembrance day entirely) is simply because we have been enduring war for the last 10 years or so. People have been reminded not by wearing a red poppy or by attending a service but by the reality of war itself of the sacrifice and terrible destruction of war. I do not understand why some people appear to think that wearing a red poppy is synonymous with militarism. The red poppy has always been an emblem of remembrance only. That is how it remains today.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
For me, I am uncomfortable with red poppies because they only remember military death in wars - obviously sad, but what about civilian deaths? What about the deaths of pacifists who contributed to the war effort in non-combative roles, eg down the mines? What about those on the 'enemy' side who died? As a Christian I am also uncomfortable with the nationalism poppy-wearing brings out. God is the God of all nations, even 'enemy' nations.

I also think a pardon for Alan Turing would be worth far more than any amount of poppy-wearing.

I think remembrance should be private and not turned into public spectacle, so November 11th is the Feast of St Martin to me, and within that remembering Armistice Day (St Martin being patron saint of both soldiers and pacifists). Not the modern exploitation of the war dead and injured by capitalism (government relying on charities to care for injured soldiers and their families) and warmongers. That is what Remembrance Sunday has become to me, sadly.
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
I had no idea before reading this thread that that the Peace Pledge Union was still in existence, assuming that it had gone the same way as its pre-war wrongheaded contemporaries which are now historical curiosities, such as the Left Book Club

Given the PPU's appalling record of pro-Nazi appeasement during the 1930s, it must have the hide of a rhinceros.

At least other champions of appeasement, such as The Times, swung behind the anti-Nazi struggle after 1939, but the PPU remained pacifist throughout WWII.

The only honorable PPU members were those such as Siegfried Sassoon whose firsthand experience of conflict had won them the right for their opinions to be respected.
 
Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :
 
Wearing a poppy (red) is how we as a community show respect to all the men & women who lost their lives all the way from 1914 to 2012.
Is it saying we are pro war ? Not in the least
It is showing honor to people who made the ultimate sacrifice for freedom, to those who came home but part of them is still out there .
Should we end Rememberance day ? Not likely
we need to remember what others have and are doing to keep us free. And most of the time keeping people free may mean doing some things that most of us would not like happening. I think all politicans should make a tour of the war cemeteries in France & Belguim . Those rows of markers should convince ANY politician that war should be the last club out of the bag.
To the familes of those who served and never made it home Thank you To those who served and made it home also thank you . [Votive] [Angel] [Smile]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I wear a poppy because I'm anti-war.
 
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I had no idea before reading this thread that that the Peace Pledge Union was still in existence, assuming that it had gone the same way as its pre-war wrongheaded contemporaries which are now historical curiosities, such as the Left Book Club

Given the PPU's appalling record of pro-Nazi appeasement during the 1930s, it must have the hide of a rhinceros.

At least other champions of appeasement, such as The Times, swung behind the anti-Nazi struggle after 1939, but the PPU remained pacifist throughout WWII.

The only honorable PPU members were those such as Siegfried Sassoon whose firsthand experience of conflict had won them the right for their opinions to be respected.
I'm a Peace Pledge signatory, though not a PPU member since moving overseas. I didn't appease the Nazis in the 1930's (75 years ago), being only 43 now. Do I have to go to war myself before I can take a pacifist stance? Surely there is honour in standing by ones principles?
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Jade, here the civilian deaths also have a memorial and a wreath laid. It's not necessarily that only the military deaths are remembered.
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I was in Sainsbury's (supermarket) at 11 am this morning and the 2 minutes' silence was observed. It was very moving to have the whole supermarket fall silent, except for the plaintive calls of 'unexpected item in bagging area. Do you wish to continue?', which rather spoiled the moment.

M.
 
Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :
 
Stores are all closed here today. Church service times have been changed too.
 
Posted by SyNoddy (# 17009) on :
 
I attended the launch of our local Poppy Appeal in a secondary school (11-16yrs). Veterans spent the day talking to youngsters about their experience of war and conflict, others talked about visiting the WWI trenches and work researching the names on local war memorials, a local adult choir led a service of commemoration during which pupils read poems, danced and performed dramas inspired by what they had heard. This all took place in mid October. IMHO non of this glorified war but certainly educated the youngsters about the terrible price of war and the importance of avoiding armed conflict whenever possible. The poppies have been on sale from then on. I bought poppies for myself and family members but have only worn mine today. I avoided the larger fabric version as I felt that a 'showy' poppy was inappropriate. Had I personally lost a loved one in a conflict I might well feel differently but I dont feel glamour sits well with the sacrifice made by others unknown to me.
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
I don't wear a poppy because the money here goes to the Legion, which until recently, has been a bit of a wingnut place.

My father-in-law fought in WWII but had the bad timing to do so for one of the Baltic nations before it got taken over. He somehow made it to Canada. But, the legion never let him in.


Anyhoo.......11 am in 2 minutes.
 
Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I had no idea before reading this thread that that the Peace Pledge Union was still in existence, assuming that it had gone the same way as its pre-war wrongheaded contemporaries which are now historical curiosities, such as the Left Book Club

Given the PPU's appalling record of pro-Nazi appeasement during the 1930s, it must have the hide of a rhinceros.
Utter drivel. Protesting against war is not to appease anyone.

quote:
At least other champions of appeasement, such as The Times, swung behind the anti-Nazi struggle after 1939, but the PPU remained pacifist throughout WWII.

The only honorable PPU members were those such as Siegfried Sassoon whose firsthand experience of conflict had won them the right for their opinions to be respected.
Herein is the problem: you cannot protest war without someone complaining that you're somehow supporting the enemy.

I don't wear poppies, I don't have minutes of silence, I don't give money to service charities. I don't call soldiers heroes.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of WW2, the fact is that the memory of a win against tyranny is used as a drum to support any colonial and post-colonial war that our leaders decide is necessary.

Not my war, not my poppy, not my responsibility.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
I didn't attend Church this morning . Instead just flicked the TV on at 10.45 am to catch the 2 min silence at the Cenotaph.

I came in on what looked like a roll-call of the war dead from Afghanistan/Iraq . Just a rolling list of names and ages, followed the band playing Elgar's Nimrod .

Oh my, those tears started falling . Can't explain why.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I only learned last week that the gree bit is supposed to point to 11.

Did anyone else know this?

(IN fact, I don't remember poppies having any green bits until fairly recently.)
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I didn't attend Church this morning . Instead just flicked the TV on at 10.45 am to catch the 2 min silence at the Cenotaph.

I came in on what looked like a roll-call of the war dead from Afghanistan/Iraq . Just a rolling list of names and ages, followed the band playing Elgar's Nimrod .

Oh my, those tears started falling . Can't explain why.
The cynic in me says it's because that's the intent. To drown anger at the waste and horror of war in tears of patriotic sentiment.
 
Posted by Fuzzipeg (# 10107) on :
 
quote:
What need I the waving flags

I watch these old men march
bereted and badged
as I was in years long gone.
Though I understand
and will honour their need.
I will never join them.

I need no marching or medals
to do honour to comrades dead
the metal would lie heavy
upon my aging chest.
Bill Mitton

[Edited for copyright compliance, DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 11. November 2012, 20:08: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Hostly Tudor Bonnet

Fuzzipeg, commandment 7 states: don't post illegal material.
This includes violating copyright. Please quote & link - I have edited your post to do this.

/Hostly Tudor Bonnet

Doublethink
Purgatory Host
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I didn't attend Church this morning . Instead just flicked the TV on at 10.45 am to catch the 2 min silence at the Cenotaph.

I came in on what looked like a roll-call of the war dead from Afghanistan/Iraq . Just a rolling list of names and ages, followed the band playing Elgar's Nimrod .

Oh my, those tears started falling . Can't explain why.
The cynic in me says it's because that's the intent. To drown anger at the waste and horror of war in tears of patriotic sentiment.
Really?! You seriously think the reading of those names out loud is to glorify war?

You have to get out a bit and listen to some families of dead vets. Might provide you with a bit of perspective.
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Protesting against war is not to appease anyone.
During the 1930s an influential section of the PPU went far beyond "protesting against war" and called for Hitler to be given control of a considerable portion of mainland Europe.

quote:
Herein is the problem: you cannot protest war without someone complaining that you're somehow supporting the enemy.
George Orwell pointed out in his Notes On Nationalism the "problem" that there was in fact an overlap in membership between the PPU and the British Union of Fascists.

quote:
I don't wear poppies, I don't have minutes of silence, I don't give money to service charities. I don't call soldiers heroes.

Guess you show them.
 
Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Protesting against war is not to appease anyone.
During the 1930s an influential section of the PPU went far beyond "protesting against war" and called for Hitler to be given control of a considerable portion of mainland Europe.
I'd be pleased to read a reference for that, please.

quote:
quote:
Herein is the problem: you cannot protest war without someone complaining that you're somehow supporting the enemy.
George Orwell pointed out in his Notes On Nationalism the "problem" that there was in fact an overlap in membership between the PPU and the British Union of Fascists.
Again, show me some scholarly research on that.

quote:
quote:
I don't wear poppies, I don't have minutes of silence, I don't give money to service charities. I don't call soldiers heroes.

Guess you show them.
What is that supposed to mean?
 
Posted by Fuzzipeg (# 10107) on :
 
My apologies re copywrite....I wasn't thinking.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Before this thread dies the death (and it is bound to return next year - it always has, in some shape of form, since I've been on here): to those of you who oppose us white poppy wearers and have notions of Remembrance Day as a wish to end war and to remember all those killed, and who co-opt the red poppy for this purpose, against what the British Legion stand for:
quote:
At 11am on the 11th day of the 11th month, the nation will pause.

We will fall silent and take two minutes to reflect on the sacrifice of our brave Service men and women from conflicts past and present
their official view.

Note the 'our' - no mention of 'enemy' deaths nor of civilian deaths.

That is why I still oppose Remembrance Sunday and the Christian veneers that seek to justify it.

The two Sundays in the year when i wish i weren't in church are this and mothering Sunday. (And Holy Family comes a close third)

[Fixed link, DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 12. November 2012, 19:13: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
You have to get out a bit and listen to some families of dead vets. Might provide you with a bit of perspective.
British soldiers aren't the only ones who die in these conflicts. When the names of the Afghan civilians they've killed are read out too, then I'll believe it's about remembering the dead. I have every sympathy for those who lose loved ones, I just don't like the emotional manipulation that accompanies Remembrance Day.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
[QUOTE]
The cynic in me says it's because that's the intent. To drown anger at the waste and horror of war in tears of patriotic sentiment.
And the cynic in me today might agree with that view .
Were it not that the emotion I experienced yesterday , and that which the Wootton Bassett gatherings experienced , seems to be more than the watery-eyed patriotism , it is an actual *Something*

That *something* is what enabled Britain to keep Hitler out , and it is the same thing which has enabled us to challenge today's threats.

War is horror, war is waste . Alas this fact alone does not prevent it . If it did, then the blood-bath of 1914-18 really would have ended all wars.
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I'd be pleased to read a reference for that, please.
The most convenient is the Wikipedia article on the PPU, which quotes sources.

If you think you know better, than perhaps you could attempt to change the article.

quote:
Again, show me some scholarly research on that.
I have provided you with the Orwell source, which I believe to be true because I happen to trust Orwell; because he was intimately involved in the left-wing politics of the time and knew what he was talking about; and because, to the best of my knowledge, no-one in the sixty-seven years since he wrote the essay has succeeded in refuting it.

If you can do so, I would be interested to see your evidence.
 
Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I have provided you with the Orwell source, which I believe to be true because I happen to trust Orwell; because he was intimately involved in the left-wing politics of the time and knew what he was talking about; and because, to the best of my knowledge, no-one in the sixty-seven years since he wrote the essay has succeeded in refuting it.

If you can do so, I would be interested to see your evidence.
Right - so you've provided no sources at all for your unfounded assertion.

Some members of the British Union of Fascists joined the PPU, respected historians say this was a 'small number'. Some people, including Orwell complained about the stance of Peace News.

That's it. Hardly a ringing endorsement of your teeth gnashing about the appeasement of the PPU.
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Will the Dalai Lama be accused in later decades of appeasement because he and his government and a handful of monks refused to fight alongside the small groups of resistance in Tibet in 1959 and because the Chinese government sill insists that he did sign the seventeen point agreement?
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
the appeasement of the PPU.
The PPU in the 1930s followed a policy of appeasement, supported Chamberlain at Munich, and the editor of its official publication wanted to surrender to Hitler vast areas of continental Europe.

Those are not my opinions, they are historical facts.

You are either in denial over the PPU's appeasement, or your attitude is that of Carroll's Humpty Dumpty, to whom words meant what he chose them to mean.

[ 13. November 2012, 10:17: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
 
Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
]The PPU in the 1930s followed a policy of appeasement, supported Chamberlain at Munich, and the editor of its official publication wanted to surrender to Hitler vast areas of continental Europe.

Those are not my opinions, they are historical facts.

You are either in denial over the PPU's appeasement, or your attitude is that of Carroll's Humpty Dumpty, to whom words meant what he chose them to mean.
Excuse me, asking for a reference is not a suggestion that what you are saying is lies, it is a request to see where you get your information from.

It looks like you only get it from wikipedia. In which case I say 'bullshit'.
 
Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :
 
Let me help you out: Mark Gilbert's Pacifist Attitudes to Nazi Germany, 1936-45 in the Journal of Contemporary History from 1992 is a demolition of the PPU and Peace News in the period.

Fascinating.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Central line tube train wearing a poppy. I don't remember seeing that one before, but I also saw buildings wearing poppies - shot from someone else
 
Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

Those sparkly poppies on the costumes for Strictly Come Dancing were silly, and I would bet that they were made by the costume department and no money went to the Royal British Legion, which is the point of those poppies. It's also silly because they're broadcasting the next show this Saturday, 10th November, so poppies will no doubt be worn again.
I'm not terribly keen on the sparkly poppies, but the British Legion seem to claim the ones on Strictly Come Dancing as their own .

On a separate note, I'm a little uncomfortable with the attitude on this thread that it's wrong to remember service personnel without simultaneously remembering civilian war dead etc. Whatever we think about a particular war, members of the armed forces have chosen to take on a job where they know they may have to risk their lives to defend the rest of us. Unless you're a strict pacafist (and I know some people here are), I think a certain amount of additional respect is due to our soldiers.

You may not agree with the Afghanistan war, but it is conceivable that those currently in the armed forces now will be in the front line defending us against a genuine threat to our way of life, and indeed lives, in the future. Acknowledging those who have already lost our lives in our armed forces, in whatever context, thus strikes me as appropriate. They chose to take the risk that they would have to die defending us. This lead them to die in a different kind of conflict, but that doesn't denigrate the original choice.

The tradition of wearing red poppies may not acknowledge civilian casualties, and perhaps we should do something else special to acknowledge them, but that doesn't make it wrong in and of itself. Anything we do to acknowledge the suffering of one group necessarily doesn't address everyone who suffers.

Best wishes,

Rachel.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:
I'm a little uncomfortable with the attitude on this thread that it's wrong to remember service personnel without simultaneously remembering civilian war dead etc. Whatever we think about a particular war, members of the armed forces have chosen to take on a job where they know they may have to risk their lives to defend the rest of us.
Most had no choice. They were conscripts.
 
Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Most had no choice. They were conscripts.
Sorry - maybe I was unclear. I was addressing attitudes expressed concerning soldiers who have died recently in Afghanistan for example, more than those who died in the world wars.

Best wishes,

Rachel.
 
Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :
 
I wonder if the increased observance of Remembrance Sunday is because those involved in it are now passing on. There are few servicemen left now. Even those who remembered the war as children are now elderly: my parents can *just* remember the War; they are well past 70.

Because those people are now passing from us, we are making an extra effort to remember.

It is interesting to note that in these parts observance of Anzac Day (which is the equivalent here of Remembrance Sunday) has very much increased over the last 20 years, despite this country not being heavily involved in any wars.
 
Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
I remember when it was considered comical for old men to stop for the two minute silence (usually to the great inconvenience of those around them), as portrayed by comedians like Dick Emery as Lampwick, or Alf Garnett. It was a thing that old people did and was nothing to do with modern life.
That's changed over the last 15 years or so, certainly since 9/11 and the current round of Middle Eastern wars.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
What is actually interesting is irc just after the invasion of Iraq, it was actually quite hard to get hold of a poppy. I seem to recall one year not wearing my white one as I did not have a red one as well despite being on the look out for several weeks.

Jengie
 


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