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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What can we do about racism?
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Porridge
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# 15405
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Posted
11 November, 2012 13:13
On the election thread, at least one otherwise- respected Shippie has claimed Obama won only because he was black.
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
So, bullet points please, Why did Romney lose?
P
He lost because he is white. I've kind of scrolled back through, and I don't see anyone even alluding to the reality of Obama's win. He won because he is black, and there were people who voted for him who have never voted before, except maybe in 2008. I personally witnessed a man being turned away after it was discovered he had been purged from the rolls due to inactivity. I just think there were a lot of uninformed voters who knew nothing of his positions on marriage or his foreign policy, etc. They voted for him for one reason.
I'm not saying that's why everyone voted for him. But it is most certainly why he was reelected. I'd think someone here of all places would have the balls to say it.
Please: posters interested in debating whether Grits is right are invited to carry on elsewhere.
What I’d like to address is the fact that Grits observes that racism is apparently alive and well in these United (really?) States. Also on the election thread, posted maps show some congruence between former slave states and non-Obama states:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Rather gruesome maps of the civil war era and current political voting. Spot the difference?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/63089_10151299959267177_1113898282_n.jpg
There’s even some modest backup elsewhere for this claim that Obama won because of his “race:” (sorry, but I personally object to the claim that Obama is black when he’s the offspring of a black father and a white mother, which in my mind makes him of mixed race, to the extent that there is any “race” other than “human”): It now appears
that some others may agree with Grits.
If American racism, esp. black-white racism, remains a problem in American society, what can Americans do about it? I mean us, individually, not just collectively.
The wide-spread practice of race-based slavery in this country ended 150 years -- some 5 generations -- ago. Widespread legal segregation of the races ended 2 generations ago. When, in the name of peace and virtue, do we move on to actual, practical, real, ordinary, day-to-day integration? And more to the point, HOW?
I say it's up to us as individuals. Gummint hasn't done it. Churches haven't done it. Schools haven't done it. BUT IT MUST BE DONE.
How?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
11 November, 2012 13:21
Challenge it wherever we find it.
I was brought up in the most racist country on Earth (imo) - 1960s South Africa. So my racism 'button' is hair trigger.
My MIL was very racist, 99% due to ignorance. I challenged her on even the most mildly racist comments. Over the years she changed her stance completely.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
11 November, 2012 13:25
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The wide-spread practice of race-based slavery in this country ended 150 years -- some 5 generations -- ago.
There is a reasonable argument to be made that aspects of the US prison system are very similar. See here. Add in three strikes laws, and steal three cars and you can be enslaved. Now as black americans are disproportionately criminalised ...
[ 11. November 2012, 12:26: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
11 November, 2012 13:30
Embrace racists. Include them. Bless them. Love them. Lay our lives down at their feet. For them.
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Love wins
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
11 November, 2012 14:46
Racism will never be eliminated. It is a facet of our gregarious nature.
It needn't, however, be accepted. By challenging racist attitudes, we can reduce its influence.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
11 November, 2012 14:49
That's why we'll always have it as we do. By challenging it alone. The English Defense League needs LOVING to the point where it can't be racist, can't BE. Or do we just drive them underground?
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Love wins
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
11 November, 2012 15:00
You are a much better person than I, Martin.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
11 November, 2012 15:06
'Us' and 'Them' is natural to human beings. We do it all of the time. We feel safe with 'us', while 'they' are the unknown outsiders, maybe even the enemy. There is the key. They must stop being outsiders, and start being fellow human beings: brothers and sisters in the human family. Until everyone is ready to mix with everyone else, the 'ism's' won't be stamped out.
Encourage everything that gets people to mix, whatever their age/ colouring/ background/ religion/ wealth/ political affiliation/ fashion sense, etc: schools, clubs, forums, religious services, you name it. Don't exclude anyone. Make the effort yourself to meet people outside of those you're naturally drawn to, and get to know them.
Discourage any talk of 'them' you hear, and avoid closed/exclusive meetings or try to open them up.
It will take time, but with the will it can be done. The goal is worth it.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
11 November, 2012 15:46
lilBuddha I shake my head in tears. If you could only see - and you're welcome to - what I've just posted on Waving Not Drowning.
And again, tears mate. I'm a HORRIBLE sod. We are ALL at the same level in our inadequacy. We are COLLECTIVE sinners. Hence OUR Father.
I'm burned out and bottomed out with fear and loathing and the ONLY way up is out. Not getting out - although getting out more is essential - but reaching out.
The EDL are THE POOR. Racism and homophobia are manifestations of POVERTY. Of the lack of righteousness which means SOCIAL JUSTICE. Nothing else. Holiness, righteousness what EMPTY words we hide behind. And fear. Fear that we're not as Holy and as Righteous as God.
Damn right we're not.
There is inequity, fear, polarization, exclusion, elitism, escapism. Broad is the path of destruction TAKEN BY CHRISTIANS.
Me.
We are DAMNED, the apocalypse WILL yet come, if we continue to tyrannize ANYONE with us and them.
Amen come Lord Jesus.
Please!
[ 11. November 2012, 14:47: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
11 November, 2012 16:13
I remember some 15 years ago being at a Christian run International student hostel in central London. At one four person table there was a white guy, black guy, Chinese looking and a South Asian looking guy, all happily chatting together. It would have been wildly inappropriate to say anything at the time, but I was suitably encouraged; it was obviously just natural for this to happen. Which is the point: where it isn't a big deal, racism will tend to fade. The challenge is to find ways to ensure natural social mixing: one of the most worrying trends in the UK at present is the de facto segregation along race lines of SOME northern cities. Can our American brethren point to any evidence about the effectiveness or otherwise of the 'school bussing' projects that were so fashionable in some circles some decades ago?
Overall the lessons of recent history are not terribly encouraging: I'm not aware of any society in the modern world where there is a substantial ethnic minority where this doesn't cause problems. Can anyone point to one? [I'm inclined to suggest Singapore, but don't know enough to be confident about that]. In the Roman Empire, it is sometimes suggested that race wasn't an issue - there are claims that Augustine of Hippo was black - but this happened as a result of the unsubtle long term imposition of a dominant ruling culture in a way that is not generally acceptable today, though France has tried that route in recent years without a great deal of success. Certainly where there is a religious divide along ethnic grounds - as seen in practice in both the US and the UK with white and black churches, not just Mosques - this makes integration a lot harder.
The only example I'm aware of where real integration has been achieved is the US armed forces. There a clear policy of being colour blind in promotions has paid dividends, but this has had the advantage of being in a closed institution with the ability to centrally impose and police colour free attitudes; attempts to impose that sort of control in an open society are probably unenforceable.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
11 November, 2012 16:21
One thing we can do is change the way we interpret data. For example, the data posited in the OP:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
On the election thread, at least one otherwise- respected Shippie has claimed Obama won only because he was black.
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pyx_e:
[qb] So, bullet points please, Why did Romney lose?
P
He lost because he is white. I've kind of scrolled back through, and I don't see anyone even alluding to the reality of Obama's win. He won because he is black, and there were people who voted for him who have never voted before, except maybe in 2008. I personally witnessed a man being turned away after it was discovered he had been purged from the rolls due to inactivity. I just think there were a lot of uninformed voters who knew nothing of his positions on marriage or his foreign policy, etc. They voted for him for one reason.
I'm not saying that's why everyone voted for him. But it is most certainly why he was reelected.
It sounds like initially this data (greater #s of previously inactive black voters coming out to vote for Obama) was presented as evidence of "reverse racism". But another way of looking at it is precisely the opposite-- of evidence that finally, some healing is coming. That citizens who once felt so disenfranchised that they believed there was no point in voting, now feel their vote, their voice, matters. Perhaps it is not so much about who they voted for, but rather simply that they did. That they now feel engaged in the process of shaping the values and direction of the nation. Surely that is a very good thing.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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art dunce
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# 9258
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Posted
11 November, 2012 16:22
I think that you need to differentiate what are broadly the three types of racism. Personally-mediated, which is bigoted assumptions about others, stereotyping and discriminating based on race. Then there is internalized, in which people who have historically been marginalized and racially stigmatized begin to believe the stereotypes about themselves and it affects self worth and leads to self destructive behaviors. Finally, there is institutionalized racism where practices, policies and structures social, economic, municipal and political are in place that favor one race (in America that is white) and act as an impediment to others. This can be underfunding of minority schools, racial police profiling, a difference in lending practices etc.
This link uses the example of the Albina neighborhood of Portland to illustrate how segregation and neighborhood disinvestment works. Whites in Albina now brag how they saved the neighborhood from blacks who didn't care (thus perpetuating a completely untrue negative stereotype) without ever acknowledging that they did care but were systematically denied services and investment.
They are three heads of the same beast and just being nice to each other isn't going to solve the whole problem.
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Ego is not your amigo.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
11 November, 2012 16:33
Without being nice to each other, to ALL others, we haven't got a hope in hell.
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Love wins
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
11 November, 2012 16:51
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Embrace racists. Include them. Bless them. Love them. Lay our lives down at their feet. For them.
That, I take it, is Christian Theory. I am wondering , though, whether the racist might receive all this tenderness as positive reinforcement and/or affirmation for her/his racism?
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
That's why we'll always have it as we do. By challenging it alone. The English Defense League needs LOVING to the point where it can't be racist, can't BE. Or do we just drive them underground?
And underground, I suspect, is where we’ve driven the personal kinds of racism mentioned below by Art Dunce with more institutional responses.
@Boogie: Has your MIL really changed? Is it possible she’s simply changed in your company, because she’s learned you don’t approve?
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
'Us' and 'Them' is natural to human beings.
I wonder about this. Is it really? I had recent occasion to meet with a colleague in our Early Intervention program. While waiting for my colleague, I observed two moms, each with a toddler, waiting to be seen in our waiting area. The moms (of different races) were not interacting. The two babies went for each other like magnets; they were enchanted with each other. It looked like a case of love at first sight.
Maybe “us and them” is natural, or becomes so, with adult human beings, after negative experiences interpreted as due to “otherness.”
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
I think that you need to differentiate what are broadly the three types of racism. Personally-mediated, which is bigoted assumptions about others, stereotyping and discriminating based on race. Then there is internalized, in which people who have historically been marginalized and racially stigmatized begin to believe the stereotypes about themselves and it affects self worth and leads to self destructive behaviors. Finally, there is institutionalized racism where practices, policies and structures social, economic, municipal and political are in place that favor one race (in America that is white) and act as an impediment to others. This can be underfunding of minority schools, racial police profiling, a difference in lending practices etc.
This link uses the example of the Albina neighborhood of Portland to illustrate how segregation and neighborhood disinvestment works. Whites in Albina now brag how they saved the neighborhood from blacks who didn't care (thus perpetuating a completely untrue negative stereotype) without ever acknowledging that they did care but were systematically denied services and investment.
They are three heads of the same beast and just being nice to each other isn't going to solve the whole problem.
Thanks for this.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
11 November, 2012 17:05
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
@Boogie: Has your MIL really changed? Is it possible she’s simply changed in your company, because she’s learned you don’t approve?
She's no longer with us, but I knew she'd changed when I overheard her picking someone else up on a racist comment.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
11 November, 2012 17:23
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I wonder about this. Is it really? I had recent occasion to meet with a colleague in our Early Intervention program. While waiting for my colleague, I observed two moms, each with a toddler, waiting to be seen in our waiting area. The moms (of different races) were not interacting. The two babies went for each other like magnets; they were enchanted with each other. It looked like a case of love at first sight.
Maybe “us and them” is natural, or becomes so, with adult human beings, after negative experiences interpreted as due to “otherness.”
I agree that "us and them" is usually applied in accordance with whatever has been absorbed through influence since birth. I think it is affected too by the level of confidence/ degree of insecurity within a person/ community. It's far wider than skin colour.
Perhaps at birth it's in embryo form, ready to develop, but by observation it's a natural human tendency.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
11 November, 2012 18:09
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
[QB It's far wider than skin colour.
[/QB]
It is indeed, but colour is the easiest differentiation and the one most difficult to disguise. Therefore will like remain the most insidious version.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
11 November, 2012 18:52
Very interested in this thread....without going into details at all, our family is currently embroiled in racist nonsense. But because it is my family members (who i love) who are being appalling it is easier to take on board Martin's words.
For how can I do any other?
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BessLane
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# 15176
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Posted
11 November, 2012 19:05
This topic brings to mind something that happened last week. I was hanging out chatting with a couple of folks when a new couple came in the bar. He was white, she was black. A couple of regulars and I ended up talking to her for several hours and she told me she had been afraid to come in my bar because she didn't know if we let black people in. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) . It just about broke my heart that a person should, in this day and age, be afraid to go anywhere because he or she happens to have a better tan than someone else. Absolute BS!
I've posted elsewhere on the Ship that I have gotten a bit of a reputation, in circles I absolutely care nothing about, because I let "n... drink in my bar just like regular people" I have been told I should charge black people higher prices than white people so they won't come back. I have listened to one guy wax nostalgic about the days when a black man walking down the street was expected to step off the sidewalk, remove his cap and lower his eyes whn a white woman passed him. Stuff that makes me want to pour bleach in my ears in the hopes of cleansing my brain of this filth.
I can attest that racism is very much alive and well, at least in my part of the USA. It sucks and it makes me feel dirty and sometimes, it makes me despair for the future. But I try, lordy do I try, to do my little bit to combat the status quo.
I do not allow rascist talk. I do not allow anyone to give anyone else grief about skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political affiliations or anything else we flawed humans use to distinguish "us" from "them". You get one warning, then you get asked to leave for the day. So far, I haven't had to bar anyone, and maybe, just maybe, I have helped open a couple of eyes, just a little bit, to the reality of our common humanity.
I may be a dreamer. I may be a wide-eyed pollyana, but I hope I am making some kind of small difference in my little part of the world. And, IMO, that is all any one of us can do.
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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
11 November, 2012 19:23
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
The wide-spread practice of race-based slavery in this country ended 150 years -- some 5 generations -- ago.
There is a reasonable argument to be made that aspects of the US prison system are very similar. See here. Add in three strikes laws, and steal three cars and you can be enslaved. Now as black americans are disproportionately criminalised ...
I take your point, and the link you provide is an eye-opening prod to all of us about the encroaching reality of living within, or at least at the edge of, a police state. That said, I also think it's a subject worthy of its own thread.
I have to confess, in looking at the accompanying photo, I wondered: how many of these women were jailed for reacting violently to abuse visited on them by partners? How many for aiding and abetting, possibly under duress, the commission of crimes engineered by the men they live with? How many for "holding" drugs or pot for boyfriends or husbands?
Sexism may be a larger issue even than racism. And the stark corporate exploitation of the poor is probably an even larger issue than that, given that the U.S. seems busily adding to their numbers.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
11 November, 2012 20:59
Segregation may have ended two generations ago, but the US is just getting back to level of racial integration in politics last seen during Reconstruction. That was the last attempt at comprehensive racial integration in US federal and state politics, and it failed by 1900. The last spark of inclusion was North Carolina in the 1890's. Jim Crow didn't spring into existence overnight right after the Civil War.
Right now the US is still burying the ghosts and failures of its political past. Unlike Reconstruction, this attempt looks like it will succeed.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
11 November, 2012 22:30
BessHiggs ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Love wins
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
11 November, 2012 22:49
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
If American racism, esp. black-white racism, remains a problem in American society, what can Americans do about it? I mean us, individually, not just collectively.
Easy peasy, this one.
Shack up with someone of a different race. Then rock-n-roll until it falls off. Recharge and repeat.
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
11 November, 2012 23:33
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I had recent occasion to meet with a colleague in our Early Intervention program. While waiting for my colleague, I observed two moms, each with a toddler, waiting to be seen in our waiting area. The moms (of different races) were not interacting. The two babies went for each other like magnets; they were enchanted with each other. It looked like a case of love at first sight.
Maybe “us and them” is natural, or becomes so, with adult human beings, after negative experiences interpreted as due to “otherness.”
My wife's experience teaching at inner city (and hence, racially mixed) schools in two different countries would back up your observations, but not your suggested conclusion.
Her observation is that kids of different races interact without a single thought of the differences in how they look until someone (usually but not always a family member) points the differences out to them and teaches them (explicitly or implicitly) that people who look different from them are bad.
What I mean is that this kind of discrimination at the level of personal interactions (to differentiate from art dunce's other manifestations of racism) seems to be learned behavior. The fear of "Other" may be innate, but the perception of "Other" in people of different ethnicity is not.
I find that to be encouraging, because it means that challenging this form of racism in individuals may have some hope of succeeding in the long term.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
12 November, 2012 00:15
I respectfully disagree that President Obama won another term simply because he was black. There were plenty of people I knew even on the Left Coast who label him a Muslim, non-Christian Socialist. His color seems to make him an easier target for some to hate.
I think his stance on some issues like Obamacare endeared him to some (like me, and I voted for Bush and McCain in the past 2 elections). I myself do not care about his color. I also grew up in the church he is part of, UCC.org, so I get mildily offended when people don't call him a Christian. I will go on record and say his writing "Present" when it came to voting on partial abortion really, really discouraged me. But I don't forsee a huge fight to push a live birth abortion agenda like others see, so I voted for him.
That said, his color probably helped him in some people's eyes who are of color for sure. That is a given. But I say to you, Herman Cain is a man of color and he lost. I don't think it really is so simple.
Racism is fought best with education, love and firm defiance. Just like gay rights are being fought for right now. I will now (another self-confession) go on record saying I voted for Prop 8 in California. I regret that choice. I have done a 180 stance on the gay rights issue. I will vote now for letting gays marry. Why? Because I feel God revealed it to me that they need the same rights as straights and they simply don't have them with civil unions. I found this out not only by reading up on the subject (Suze Orman for one explains it well), but because I love some gays that I refused to go to the wedding for. I have sat in their living rooms taking the frustration of not being able to marry while they care for children, older folks.
This is how you make change - being in community and reaching out. You don't do it by yelling, screaming or by posting articles on facebook that are like a red flag in front of a bull. I can't say I have done things the right way, but I can say that racism or any other marginalizing behavior comes from fear based attitudes.
God said love covers a multitude of sins. We need to love those racists, as Martin said.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
12 November, 2012 00:27
It takes courage to change one's mind.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
12 November, 2012 00:40
If there's any truth in the OP, it's worth bearing in mind that people have won US presidential elections for over 200 years because they were white. People who thought that was a Good Thing are just going to have to accustomise to a new reality.
[ 11. November 2012, 23:40: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
12 November, 2012 00:42
I think it is true that Obama won because of a coalition of minority groups coming together. White American males tended to vote for Mitt.
This past year whites actually lost their majority status in the US. Many are not ready to accept their new status. I think that is why Republicans tried to suppress the vote, and why they tried to make an issue of "illegal immigration."
Now Republican have begun to realize if they are going to continue to be a viable party, they will have to find a way to appeal to minorities. They can see if they do not reach out to Hispanics in particular Arizona, Texas and Georgia will be in play in the next election cycle.
Obama won because he out organized the Republicans. Republicans kept shooting themselves in the foot by advocating things that may have worked 50 years ago and thinking Americans would go down that old, tired path once again. Times have changed.
Yes, there is still racism in the US. Whenever I see it on other boards I will call it for what it is.
But we have come a long way since Martin Luther King Jr shared his dream at the Lincoln Memorial.
I would not be surprised, though, if next election cycle we will see a Latino American on the Republican ticket. But, just like Jackie Robinson integrated Major League baseball, and Earl Lloyd became the first black basketball player, someone had to be the first to break the color barrier and I am glad it is Obama.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
12 November, 2012 00:48
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It takes courage to change one's mind.
And a real generosity of spirit to share the story.
[ 11. November 2012, 23:48: Message edited by: art dunce ]
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
12 November, 2012 00:56
London schools, in which I worked all my life till I retired this summer, have children with over 300 different first-languages. The borough where I spent my last 6 years working is one of the most diverse.
There is racism, overt and subtle. But it's not simple. Just the other day, I was chatting to a black guy selling the Big Issue in my neighbourhood. Big Issue is a magazine which homeless/unemployed/etc people can sell on the street to get some income. So this was a man on the edge. The chat was genial and superficial until I'd bought a copy, then he started to complain bitterly about 'fucking Romanian gypsies' who were taking his business from him. 'Fucking East Europeans, what are they doing here?'
And almost 30 years ago, I put my house up for sale and accepted an offer from an Indian family. When I told my Bangladeshi neighbour, he asked who the buyer was and when I told him, he was appalled. 'Please don't do this. You don't know what this will mean for us.' As it happened the deal fell through and within days, I had an offer from my neighbour's brother.
It's a complex of material insecurity, fear, prejudice, cultural or national hostilities, and a whole load of other things. On the whole, I'd say being the world in a city works remarkably well here, but I wouldn't deny there are many problems. The answer? Just keep on mixing.
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
12 November, 2012 05:34
...and raise your kids right. keep a diverse circle of friends. your kids will learn to love all types of people, and when they become adults, will be unable to hate.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
12 November, 2012 06:37
Raising children without prejudices is one step. However, unless you live in a cloistered environment, they will see the outside world and will be influenced by friends.
My nephew, out of nowhere we could tell, said something to the effect of all bad comes from white people. We had a talk with him, of course, but that came from without the family.
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
The fear of "Other" may be innate, but the perception of "Other" in people of different ethnicity is not.
Where everyone is the same colour, other factors are then used. It does not need to be this way, but often is.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
This past year whites actually lost their majority status in the US.
That might be a perception. However, 72% still constitutes a majority.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
12 November, 2012 08:17
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It takes courage to change one's mind.
No - as Paul puts it: quote:
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
If we are consistently exposed to things that challenge our beliefs with realities that undermine them, then we will tend to succumb to the pressure to conform to those other views, and then rationalise our rejection to make us feel better. This strategy has largely been successful in making the church willing to endorse the unconditional remarriage of divorced people, it's now in process on the gay issue and is even visible in attitudes to child safety and the health and safety culture that swaddles our children in cotton wool. Of course it's nothing new: Eve was deceived because the fruit was 'a delight to the eyes'. It takes courage to resist the crowd; going with the zeitgeist merely requires you to stop fighting and go with the flow, as with dead fish in a stream. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
12 November, 2012 09:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It takes courage to change one's mind.
No - as Paul puts it: quote:
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
If we are consistently exposed to things that challenge our beliefs with realities that undermine them, then we will tend to succumb to the pressure to conform to those other views, and then rationalise our rejection to make us feel better. This strategy has largely been successful in making the church willing to endorse the unconditional remarriage of divorced people, it's now in process on the gay issue and is even visible in attitudes to child safety and the health and safety culture that swaddles our children in cotton wool. Of course it's nothing new: Eve was deceived because the fruit was 'a delight to the eyes'. It takes courage to resist the crowd; going with the zeitgeist merely requires you to stop fighting and go with the flow, as with dead fish in a stream.
Ender's Shadow,
If you want to take issue with what duchess has done, go address her directly, rather than through Doublethink who is a host on this board.
To suggest that gays, lesbians and those who tolerate them constitute "Bad company" shows you up for what you are.
btw, WTF has this to do with Health and Safety? Is this the only pony you've got?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
12 November, 2012 09:08
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
To suggest that gays, lesbians and those who tolerate them constitute "Bad company" shows you up for what you are.
OK - perhaps I should have expanded my phrasing to be 'LGBT people in same sex relationships and Christians who tolerate their relationships unquestioningly'. A fuller statement of my view is here. But given the way the case was being presented, it seemed clear that those in such sexual relationships were the category being referred to.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
12 November, 2012 09:09
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
If we are consistently exposed to things that challenge our beliefs with realities that undermine them, then we will tend to succumb to the pressure to conform to those other views, and then rationalise our rejection to make us feel better.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
It's right to challenge racism wherever it is found, yes?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
12 November, 2012 13:00
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
If we are consistently exposed to things that challenge our beliefs with realities that undermine them, then we will tend to succumb to the pressure to conform to those other views, and then rationalise our rejection to make us feel better.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
It's right to challenge racism wherever it is found, yes?
I think we need to watch our own internal reactions aggressively, and beware when we seem to be drifting away from total opposition; whether it is appropriate ALWAYS to publicly express dissent will be a matter for wisdom given the situation, sometimes there are more important matters to worry about. To take an extreme example, if a wife beater is sounding off about how good it is to beat her, or especially when really seeking help to stop, when he also makes some derogatory comments about blacks it's probably not wise to pursue that at the time.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
12 November, 2012 13:10
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
OK - perhaps I should have expanded my phrasing to be 'LGBT people in same sex relationships and Christians who tolerate their relationships unquestioningly'. A fuller statement of my view is here. But given the way the case was being presented, it seemed clear that those in such sexual relationships were the category being referred to.
You might consider the thread title: What can we do about racism? Personally, I can't see that your comments relate to this issue. Homophobia is a different prejudice, and you are free to have yours attacked elsewhere.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
12 November, 2012 14:43
lilbuddha: quote:
Raising children without prejudices is one step. However, unless you live in a cloistered environment, they will see the outside world and will be influenced by friends.
<slight tangent here> Last week my daughter's class at school was learning about Guy Fawkes. The way the teacher put it, Guy Fawkes (and fellow Gunpowder Plotters) were angry with King James because he wouldn't let people be Catholics (it was a bit more complicated than that, but that was the gist). The children then had a class debate about whether or not King James was right. I am proud to report that my daughter was one of those (two, count them, TWO out of a class of thirty) arguing for religious tolerance. But I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry when she revealed that she was (apparently) the only member of her class who knew that Catholics are Christians... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
12 November, 2012 15:23
We fight racism by teaching our children, and nurturing them in an environment where all people are of equal worth as people. We fight racism by standing up to it where we see it. We fight racism (and other-isms), first, by acknowledging our own innate prejudices, and working to remove them.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Embrace racists. Include them. Bless them. Love them. Lay our lives down at their feet. For them.
That's the hard one- realizing and accepting that they are also people of equal worth, albeit misguided ones.
--
I focus on the education part, maybe because it's the easiest one. Adults (me included) are set in our ways, hard to change. Kids aren't born prejudiced- they learn it from the people around them. So we talk, teach, hope, and pray that the next generation will be just a little bit better than we were. Hope springs eternal. It's all we've got.
Though I must admit, I liked TSA's solution, as well... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
12 November, 2012 16:23
quote:
From the OP:
Originally posted by Grits:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
[qb] So, bullet points please, Why did Romney lose?
P
He lost because he is white. I've kind of scrolled back through, and I don't see anyone even alluding to the reality of Obama's win. He won because he is black, and there were people who voted for him who have never voted before, except maybe in 2008.
So, it's playing the race card if some people chose to vote for Obama because he's black, but it's OK if some people chose to vote for Romney because he's white?
Or have I missed something?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
12 November, 2012 21:19
Please stick to racism (which is not a Dead Horse) and take any aspects of homosexuality out of this discussion and into Dead Horses.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
12 November, 2012 21:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It takes courage to change one's mind.
No - as Paul puts it: quote:
Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
If we are consistently exposed to things that challenge our beliefs with realities that undermine them, then we will tend to succumb to the pressure to conform to those other views, and then rationalise our rejection to make us feel better. This strategy has largely been successful in making the church willing to endorse the unconditional remarriage of divorced people, it's now in process on the gay issue and is even visible in attitudes to child safety and the health and safety culture that swaddles our children in cotton wool. Of course it's nothing new: Eve was deceived because the fruit was 'a delight to the eyes'. It takes courage to resist the crowd; going with the zeitgeist merely requires you to stop fighting and go with the flow, as with dead fish in a stream.
A word in your shell-like ear ...
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
12 November, 2012 23:38
And aye Porridge, it's Christian theory because we don't practice it.
So, if we love murderers, as I'm currently called to do, a murderer at least, penitent, broken by it but pret-tee capable of it still, we encourage them in that?
If we LOVE racists, ignore their racism, see why they are racist, understand it, explore it, identify with it, embrace it, as God does our pecadilloes, but first and foremost LOVE them, the tattooed, 'ard as fuck skin 'ead scum-and-proud-of-it I've seen threatening on the streets of Leicester, really LOVE them, just as they are, meet them where they are, may be, like Satan on Judgement day, their hearts might melt a little.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
13 November, 2012 00:56
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If we LOVE racists, ignore their racism, see why they are racist, understand it, explore it, identify with it, embrace it, as God does our pecadilloes, but first and foremost LOVE them, the tattooed, 'ard as fuck skin 'ead scum-and-proud-of-it I've seen threatening on the streets of Leicester, really LOVE them, just as they are, meet them where they are, may be, like Satan on Judgement day, their hearts might melt a little.
I agree with all the above except the bolded part. I see no precedent for "ignoring the racism" from Christ's ministry. I see Jesus doing all the other things you mention in reference to sinners-- loving them, understanding them, identifying with them. But I don't see any precedent for ignoring sin. In fact, it seems to me Jesus tends to confront sin head on, in that really annoying socially inappropriate way of his.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
13 November, 2012 01:35
I think we can attempt to look past their racism when it is confined to their thoughts/feelings since we understand that it is really based in fear and we can, as Christians, offer them the possible alternative of perfect love in Christ which casts out fear. But we can never ignore their racism when it is put into action. And we cannot underestimate the damage done when their individual racism becomes an institutionalized racism that destroys lives and robs futures and that will require systematic remedies to correct.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
13 November, 2012 12:39
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
If we are consistently exposed to things that challenge our beliefs with realities that undermine them, then...
... your beliefs are out of line with reality and should be rejected as false or updated to bring them in line with reality.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
13 November, 2012 14:16
Did anyone else see the documentary a few weeks ago about how sitcoms reflected American social attitudes? (It was a British program, but I'm afraid I can't remember the name.) Having looked at how attitudes have shifted in various areas, it concluded that race was still a toxic issue in much of America.
I can't remember all its points now, but it claimed that there hasn't been a TV series that appealed equally to both black and white viewers since The Cosby Show. It pointed out that Friends, set in one of the most racially mixed places in the USA, not only were all the main characters white but non-whites hardly ever appeared. It asserted that, despite their tremendous popularity with whites, shows such as Friends and Sex in the City were so unpopular with black viewers that all-black versions had been made, which then got very high viewing figures for that audience.
I don't know enough about America to know if that program was right or not. However, while I don't want to detract from Martin's excellent points, it seems to me there are wider influences at work in society that go beyond our own personal behaviour.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
13 November, 2012 14:48
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And aye Porridge, it's Christian theory because we don't practice it.
So, if we love murderers, as I'm currently called to do, a murderer at least, penitent, broken by it but pret-tee capable of it still, we encourage them in that?
If we LOVE racists, ignore their racism, see why they are racist, understand it, explore it, identify with it, embrace it, as God does our pecadilloes, but first and foremost LOVE them, the tattooed, 'ard as fuck skin 'ead scum-and-proud-of-it I've seen threatening on the streets of Leicester, really LOVE them, just as they are, meet them where they are, may be, like Satan on Judgement day, their hearts might melt a little.
This is a gem. I take the ignore part as don't be reactive. Be a calming influence.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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