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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Isms at the Movies
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Zoë Saldaña, of Avatar and Trek fame, is to portray Nina Simone in a new film about the singer. Fans of Simone are outraged. A major theme of Simone's music was about her not being accepted for her dark skin and non-model looks. Zoë Saldaña is very light, very model-like. Women like her have had a much easier time, in even in the past, than women like Simone. This is not as bad as Anthony Hopkins potraying Othello, but why cannot the industry get it right even now?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Why is it bad for Anthony Hopkins to portray Othello? Would it be bad for Lawrence Fishburne to portray Macbeth?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Why is it bad for Anthony Hopkins to portray Othello? Would it be bad for Lawrence Fishburne to portray Macbeth?
At least partly because that Othello is both black and of a different ethnic origin to his wife and his Venietian employers is part of the plot of the story. A huge part. Its not subtext, its text. Macbeth's whiteness is not. Any more than the colour of his hair is.
Also yes there is a history, and an ongoing reality, of racism that makes a white man playing a black man a different thing from a black man playing a white man. Doesn't mean you can;t do it, but be aware of what you are doing it when youare doing it. Cue discussion of "marked" and "unmarked". If the production doesn't face up to those questions it fails in many ways.
[ 20. November 2012, 17:52: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
but why cannot the industry get it right even now?
Just as soon as we stop rewarding them for getting it wrong, they'll start getting it right.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
There is abundant precedent in the film industry for casting across ethnic lines. It's not unusual. There are various considerations in casting, such as the publicity garnered by casting someone well-known. In practical terms, if you require that each role is filled by an actor who physically resembles the character in question, many deals will not be made and many films will never come to be.
From the actor's point of view, it's nice to have work, it's nice to have a variety of roles, and it's nice to have a challenge.
On the other hand, there are plenty of actors available and some no doubt are adversely affected by the use of light-skinned actors in blackface.
Is the outrage here over ethnicity or over standards of beauty? Saldana is of Latin descent while Simone was of African descent. If Halle Berry was cast in the role, would there be the same outcry?
I think the discussion of actors playing Shakespearean roles is a sideline. Shakespeare's works are widely translated and performed and many of the themes are nearly universal. You could reset "Othello" with a Celtic Welshman married to a blond Anglo-Saxon girl and it would still work.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH
Is the outrage here over ethnicity or over standards of beauty? Saldana is of Latin descent while Simone was of African descent. If Halle Berry was cast in the role, would there be the same outcry?
Yes, I believe there would.
quote:
Originally posted by HCH
You could reset "Othello" with a Celtic Welshman married to a blond Anglo-Saxon girl and it would still work.
the hell it would.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH
You could reset "Othello" with a Celtic Welshman married to a blond Anglo-Saxon girl and it would still work.
the hell it would.
It's true that had the Elizabethans had an explicit racial hierarchy the Irish would have been well below black Africans.
Nevertheless, there is rather too much textual material in the play that directly refers to Othello's race for it to be neatly excised.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Oh and anyway, stop knocking Nina Simone's looks. We're used to seeing pictures of her when whe was getting on a bit. Look at some takem when she was younger. Maybe not a model, but that's because models have to be 6'4 and weigh less than four stone. She was really quite cute.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Zoë Saldaña, of Avatar and Trek fame, is to portray Nina Simone in a new film about the singer. Fans of Simone are outraged. A major theme of Simone's music was about her not being accepted for her dark skin and non-model looks. Zoë Saldaña is very light, very model-like. Women like her have had a much easier time, in even in the past, than women like Simone. This is not as bad as Anthony Hopkins potraying Othello, but why cannot the industry get it right even now?
A lot of people said the same thing about Salma Hayak's Frida (or at least, the San Francisco critics did.) One of the fascinating things about Frida Kahlo was that she was fairly pain, even masculine looking by that standards usually set for woman in her day, but she still drove people of both genders insane with desire.And kept pussyhound Diego Rivera in thrall for life.
Hayak (who I love, by the way-- she doesn't rest on her pretty, but is wicked smart and funny) made and effort to tone down her gorgeousness, but IMO she really overestimated her efforts. (shrug.) And it's not that I don't think she did a bad job-- she's an amazing actress. And it was her damn movie, so she cast herself ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) . But I think prettying up Kahlo misses a major trick that would make for great storytelling-- physically beautiful woman who inspires the world and garners worship and adoration-- heard it a million times. Plain woman-- arguable ugly woman(as Kahlo was frequently called)-- who does the same? How the hell did that happen? Tell me more about THAT story. That's new, provocative and original.
I had almost exactly the same issue with Hotel Rwanda I watched the movie many times and was impressed by the performances of both Don Cheadle and Sophie Okonedo, but it took me a while to research the actual story.
When I did , I found something that disturbed me: Paul Rususabegena is pretty much a dead ringer for Cheadle- give or take a few pounds. Same general skin tone, strikingly similar face, maybe a little heavier.
Mrs. Rusesabagina picture second right.
Here is Sophie.
Much lighter skin, much taller, and not just thin, but willowy, for God's sake.
And again, it's not like I think any of this is Sophie's or Salma's fault-- they are just trying to work and do the best job they can. In the case of Salma, she wanted to direct, and chose a kickass subject. And both women draw great box office-- as does Zoe Saldana.
And I fuckin' LOVE Zoe Saldana. it's not about her, either. But seeing a real person's physical appearance so aggressively prettied up (in the cases I reference) is just kind of jarring. It suggests a distrust of the public on the part of the film establishment. It's like they think the message "There are perfectly ordinary looking women who have done amazing things. There are perfectly ordinary looking women that men fallen passionately in love with, risked their lives for" would somehow be impossible for the knuckle dragging public to digest.
Even though it is true, and happens all the time. (See Guilieta Masina0
But somehow this idea is too edgy-- even for a movie about genocide. As I said, I do not begrudge Ms. Okonedo her role-- especially considering the amazing work she did with it-- but I can't help feeling for Mrs. R., who is perfectly lovely in her own way, but the world will picture her as something completely different. Because it wasn't the "right" kind of lovely.
And skin color adds a whole new level to it, given that women of color have had to deal with the aesthetic relegation of darker skin to "inferior" and "less beautiful" for centuries. (Which, for the record--WTF? dark skin is GORGEOUS.) Why, for instance, did the makeup department not simply give Sophie a cosmetic skin tone closer to the actual subject? Super easy. They gave Nicole Kidman a whole new face in The Hours, and she got an Oscar.
So yeah, lilbuddha, if they are choosing Zoe because she indeed a fantastic actress (and I personally think so), hopefully they will not chicken out on the skin color issue and give her an appropriate make up job.
[ 20. November 2012, 18:33: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I'm not knocking Simone's appearance.
Simone's daughter has said she is disappointed in the choice as her mother was raised in a time when her nose was considered too wide and her skin too black.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I got that. What I heard you saying is that other people had an attitude about it, so that is really a big part of her story.
Oh, sorry, you were talking to ken. Yeah, that remark was unnecessarily pugnacious, ken,
mostly because it totally misses the point.
[ 20. November 2012, 18:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
From the actor's point of view, it's nice to have work, it's nice to have a variety of roles, and it's nice to have a challenge.
On the other hand, there are plenty of actors available and some no doubt are adversely affected by the use of light-skinned actors in blackface.
Also, very much this.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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verticordian
Apprentice
# 17428
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Posted
I've pretty much given up on Hollywood. There's so rarely a film I don't take issue with.
The problem here is that they're not going to cast a non-star in a big budget biopic. Any non-white actresses who do become stars still have to fit within the Hollywood criteria of attractive which means basically looking white or not too far away from it. Sadly, I think there was more diversity fifteen or twenty years ago and that Hollywood (and the media in general) has gone backwards in terms of its treatment of non-white actors and characters.
Posts: 8 | From: Canterbury | Registered: Nov 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The facts that Nina Simone was a real person who only died a few years ago, whose story has not yet been told in a big-budget movie, and whose looks we not only know about but were a big issue in her life -- these are all reasons why the casting of Othello is completely irrelevant to the question of who should play Nina Simone.
That Nina Simone was black and that she had unmistakeably African features is integral to her story. She wrote songs about civil rights (including "Mississippi Goddamn") and about the legacy of slavery, including one song specifically about the legacy of slavery for African-American women: "Four Women." She also recorded a setting of "No Images," a poem about black women not knowing they are beautiful; you can read it here - scroll down. It's ridiculous to cast a Latina in the role.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Wow. Everybody read that poem; she's right.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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verticordian
Apprentice
# 17428
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Posted
RuthW, I wish I could hug you for that post.
Posts: 8 | From: Canterbury | Registered: Nov 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
From the actor's point of view, it's nice to have work, it's nice to have a variety of roles, and it's nice to have a challenge.
On the other hand, there are plenty of actors available and some no doubt are adversely affected by the use of light-skinned actors in blackface.
A small percentage of actors receive a major percentage of the roles in Hollywood. With a few exceptions, the lighter-skinned a black person is, the higher percentage chance s/he has of receiving a role. I like Zoe. I think she is capable of doing a brilliant job. That is not the point. There are a number of actresses that more fit the characteristics that are integral to Nina Simone's story.
The production is also focusing on Simone's love relationship with Clifton Henderson. Which is very humorous as Henderson was gay.
It is a shame that a biopic of someone as remarkable as Nina Simone will miss the mark in so many ways.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, sorry, you were talking to ken. Yeah, that remark was unnecessarily pugnacious, ken,
mostly because it totally misses the point.
My first post was on the point. My second was bitching back.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It suggests a distrust of the public on the part of the film establishment.
A distrust that, sadly, has been proven to be justified time and time again. Pretty faces sell. Less pretty (or pretty in non-mainstream ways) faces don't.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The facts that Nina Simone was a real person who only died a few years ago, whose story has not yet been told in a big-budget movie, and whose looks we not only know about but were a big issue in her life -- these are all reasons why the casting of Othello is completely irrelevant to the question of who should play Nina Simone.
That Nina Simone was black and that she had unmistakeably African features is integral to her story. She wrote songs about civil rights (including "Mississippi Goddamn") and about the legacy of slavery, including one song specifically about the legacy of slavery for African-American women: "Four Women." She also recorded a setting of "No Images," a poem about black women not knowing they are beautiful; you can read it here - scroll down. It's ridiculous to cast a Latina in the role.
I don't think it is the fact that Saldana has a Latina Caribbean background is the problem. It's that they chose an actress of the standard, "correct" Hollywood beauty to play a real person for whom the struggle against this continuing standard of beauty was a real issue and, from what I hear, integral to the power of her story. If the actress chosen had the looks of many Dominicans with darker skin who hark back more to their West African ancestors, I believe it wouldn't and shouldn't have caused an uproar, Latino African or not.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It suggests a distrust of the public on the part of the film establishment.
A distrust that, sadly, has been proven to be justified time and time again. Pretty faces sell. Less pretty (or pretty in non-mainstream ways) faces don't.
Yeah,that's why Welcome to the Dollhouse tanked. Oh,wait.
And that's why Frances McDormand's career is in the toilet, and they cast Kate Winslet in Fargo. Oh, wait.
And that's why Viola Davis never gets any gigs. OH, WAIT.
Even the lowest- common-denominator can want something different once in a while.
And personally. while there is a Hollywood "look" that sells, I think the name and reputation sells, as well. AS per above, I think a lot of people would go to see a Frances McDormand movie because they know she is going to hit the ball out of the park every time. When Aranofsky shot Requiem for a Dream he clamored for Ellen Burstyn for a lead role, and obviously not because she was hawt.
And I should point out how many perfectly ordinary looking men have brilliant careers. But that's different, right?
There was a time when Uma Thurman was seen as the quirky weird looking girl that could only make it in indie film. A couple people took a chance on her, and now she defines beauty. Now that the film industry is becoming more of a collection of monopolies, people don't take that kind of risk anymore. And I think film is suffering for it.
[ 22. November 2012, 04:00: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
If they decide to make a biopic about Lena Horne, Zoe Saldana would be a great choice. But this is just dumb. And offensive.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And they've put the poor woman in the position of having half the media world screaming at her, or about her. The Google hits I got were like napalm.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
This thread is entitled Isms at the Movies; may I ask what 'isms' we are discussing here?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Mudfrog: In this case; racism, sexism and, um, looksism.
Kelly, I feel for Zoe. She accepted a role of potential substance and I completely understand this. I think she will do a good job. She is receiving some backlash she does not deserve.
But I still think another choice should have been made.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
So because someone with a lighter skin is cast in a drama to play someone with a slightly darker skin that's racism?
Oh come on!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Oh come on!
Gee whiz, Who can argue with that? I am duly humbled.
[ 22. November 2012, 06:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Look, it's not racism at all! Miscasting perhaps, because she has a more, shall we say, 'refined' look; but it's not racism, she is black after all!
Casting Kate Winslett and telling her to 'black up' would be racism. This instance isn't.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, it's not racism at all! Miscasting perhaps, because she has a more, shall we say, 'refined' look; but it's not racism
Have you thought at all about where you get your idea of 'refined' from?
ISTM that this thread is about the unexamined assumptions brought to value judgments. Why is lighter 'better' than darker?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, it's not racism at all! Miscasting perhaps, because she has a more, shall we say, 'refined' look; but it's not racism
Have you thought at all about where you get your idea of 'refined' from?
From the opening post, from which I drew the inference:
quote:
A major theme of Simone's music was about her not being accepted for her dark skin and non-model looks. Zoë Saldaña is very light, very model-like.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, it's not racism at all! Miscasting perhaps, because she has a more, shall we say, 'refined' look; but it's not racism, she is black after all!
Casting Kate Winslett and telling her to 'black up' would be racism. This instance isn't.
Really? Not racism because she's black? Are you familiar with the huge cultural bias in favour of light-skinned, caucasian-featured black women in popular culture? The way that black women in Hollywood tend to basically look like white women with slightly darker skin, rather than more typical African-style features? Even though this doesn't make a damn difference to how talented or attractive someone is. Narrow noses, thin lips, straight hair... none of these things are intrinsically better, but they are more typically caucasian. Racism is not just about saying that white people are better. It's about saying that some black people are better, more desirable, than others - and these people tend to be the black people who look the most like white people. It's just wrong.
Nina Simone was black, but she was not just black. She was considered "too black." She had dark skin and very African features and got people's backs up by being unapologetic about them. She had a hard life, largely because of exactly this kind of prejudice. Hollywood always pretties people up but this is the worst. I have nothing whatsoever against Saldana herself but there is absolutely no way she should have been chosen for this role.
[ 22. November 2012, 09:46: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, it's not racism at all! Miscasting perhaps, because she has a more, shall we say, 'refined' look; but it's not racism
Have you thought at all about where you get your idea of 'refined' from?
Well, exactly.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, it's not racism at all! Miscasting perhaps, because she has a more, shall we say, 'refined' look; but it's not racism
Have you thought at all about where you get your idea of 'refined' from?
From the opening post, from which I drew the inference:
quote:
A major theme of Simone's music was about her not being accepted for her dark skin and non-model looks. Zoë Saldaña is very light, very model-like.
And how exactly do we determine what our models are?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
That is a complex issue, Bullfrog.
The fashion industry like stick-like figures as it is easier to design for.
The motion picture industries will market whatever they think sells, often tied to cultural bias. And as such, reinforces cultural bias.
The dominant culture will set the " whatever looks most like us" factor.
Many sub-cultures will set its standards to what, as closely as possible, mimics the dominant culture standards. Or, in some cases, prefer the opposite. Which is just as messed up.
There is the reproduction factor as well. Whatever features a culture determines represents "successful" will appear more attractive. But, in the modern age especially, this is very influenced by what is marketed to us.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
If you want to explore racism in cinema, count how many movies feature a black man in a relationship with a white woman.
Then count how many have a white man in a relationship with a black woman.
Then try not to conclude that Hollywood executives have an established attitude of "we can bone their women, but they can't bone ours". You'll find it really difficult. I know I did.
(ETA: there's a fair bit of sexism in that attributed attitude as well, but frankly that goes without saying when I'm talking about Hollywood executives)
[ 22. November 2012, 15:48: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Really? Not racism because she's black? Are you familiar with the huge cultural bias in favour of light-skinned, caucasian-featured black women in popular culture? The way that black women in Hollywood tend to basically look like white women with slightly darker skin, rather than more typical African-style features? Even though this doesn't make a damn difference to how talented or attractive someone is. Narrow noses, thin lips, straight hair... none of these things are intrinsically better, but they are more typically caucasian. Racism is not just about saying that white people are better. It's about saying that some black people are better, more desirable, than others - and these people tend to be the black people who look the most like white people. It's just wrong.
Nina Simone was black, but she was not just black. She was considered "too black." She had dark skin and very African features and got people's backs up by being unapologetic about them.
See, that was what baffled me about Mudfrog's post, because that idea was brought up further up in the thread. It's a fact, all you have to do is read a few primary source slave narratives and a random sample of literature written by black authors to hear the stories about how this dynamic has been expressed, over and over again. (Ever heard of the 'paper bag test'? It's not hysteria, it happens.)
And it would be a little different if it wasn't something Ms. Simone was very vocal about. How does it honor someone to say, "we don't see something you considered a major problem in your life to be all that important to us."?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If you want to explore racism in cinema, count how many movies feature a black man in a relationship with a white woman.
Then count how many have a white man in a relationship with a black woman.
Then try not to conclude that Hollywood executives have an established attitude of "we can bone their women, but they can't bone ours". You'll find it really difficult. I know I did.
(ETA: there's a fair bit of sexism in that attributed attitude as well, but frankly that goes without saying when I'm talking about Hollywood executives)
Thank you. It needed putting bluntly.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I am not saying you are incorrect, Marvin. You are not. But, ultimately, the most important colours to movie execs are the ones on bank notes. And they see the attitudes you describe as the dominate attitudes in a large percentage of their audience.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, it's not racism at all! Miscasting perhaps, because she has a more, shall we say, 'refined' look; but it's not racism, she is black after all!
This honestly sounds a lot like all 'black' people are the same in your eyes. Regardless of vastly different ethnic origins.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Look, it's not racism at all! Miscasting perhaps, because she has a more, shall we say, 'refined' look; but it's not racism, she is black after all!
This honestly sounds a lot like all 'black' people are the same in your eyes. Regardless of vastly different ethnic origins.
It has nothing to do with ethnic origin. To me the argument seems to be 'she's not black enough.'
That, I feel, i in itself a racist comment. How black does one need to be before one is accepted as black?
We have a lad in our congregation who is Ghanain but he's so pale I thought he was Greek! He says he's black. Who am I to disagree?
As I said, casting black woman to play a black woman seems reasonable to me. The issue seems to be miscasting along the lines of trying to cast a blonde Brad Pitt to play a (dyed) black haired Elvis.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Mudfrog: quote:
casting black woman to play a black woman seems reasonable to me
The actress in question describes herself as Latina. Now, I don't pretend to understand all the ins and outs of American racial categories, but I do know that in Europe, people of Spanish descent would be thought of as white*. Is the USA the only place on the planet where Hispanic people are not white? But apparently they're not black (enough) either...
*this does not prevent people from being prejudiced against them; we have a whole other lot of prejudices based on ethnicity, religion and whether or not the village down the road moved the parish boundary 200 years ago.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
IIRC, Hispanic or Latina in America has no colour reference. One can be ghost white to black as can get. It merely means some of ones ancestors came from Latin America. And that one identifies with their culture.
Mudfrog,
Once more. Zoe is black.* But she is very light, light enough not everyone is aware she has black ancestors. She is very lovely and waif-like almost. Very nearly the ideal in America.
Nina Simone was black. She was dark, she was unambiguously of African decent. She was not the ideal body-type. These were major issues for her, part of her identity.
Elvis' hair colour was not and is a ridiculous comparison.
*At least by American standards, IIRC.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
The thing is, Mudfrog, that we are talking about a specific movie with specific themes about a specific real person. If Ms. Saldana was cast as Rosa Parks, I don't think it would be a problem, although she doesn't match Rosa Parks by looks. Ms. Parks' looks were not the issue in her life as they were in Nina Simone's. I really think the whole "Latina" thing is a red herring. As lilBuddha has said, Latinas in America can well be Black. But Nina Simone was not light colored with model looks. And that was a cultural problem for her. This theme has been explored fictionally in Dream Girls for one.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
When was the last time someone was killed merely on account of the ethnic connotations of their hair color?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
So, as I said, it's not a race issue but miscasting due to features and colouring.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
You are incorrect. It is racist since actors who most resemble the dominant group get more work.
The first lines in this song illustrate my point.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So, as I said, it's not a race issue but miscasting due to features and colouring.
Race these days, fundamentally, is a matter of features and coloring, and people's attitudes thereto.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
lilBuddha: quote:
IIRC, Hispanic or Latina in America has no colour reference. One can be ghost white to black as can get. It merely means some of ones ancestors came from Latin America. And that one identifies with their culture.
Ah, I get it now. I think. Thanks for explaining.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So, as I said, it's not a race issue but miscasting due to features and colouring.
It really can be both. Let's say that I decide to make a biopic about Cass Elliot. I pick an actress to play her who is overweight by half a stone. She looks nothing like Mama Cass.
Someone says to me: but Mama Cass was a really big woman! People tormented her over her weight. She went on numerous dangerous crash diets because it was so difficult being an obese woman in the music industry. It's an important part of who she was.
Me: Look. This actress is overweight. What's the problem?
Them: She doesn't look anything like the person she's supposed to be.
Me: I wanted to have a star actress to bring in the audiences, and there just aren't many famous actresses who are as big as Mama Cass.
If I were to do that, any onlooker would gather that I'm an idiot when it comes to making believable casting choices. But you'd probably also think that I was approaching this from a perspective that agreed that very overweight women have no place in movies, and that this woman's weight was something that needed to be altered for Hollywood. And given the experiences that Mama Cass had, you might query whether I was the right person to make a film about her.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
The thing is the problem is cumulative. So to take the Mama Cass example. You cast someone unsuitable as Mama Cass and maybe that's just annoying but nothing worth complaining about, but then someone else casts actors for biopics of Divine, John Goodman and Dawn French that are much thinner, then Uma Thurman is cast as Roseanne Barr and you start to think that discrimination might be a problem.
It's not just one film, but over and over again, and you have to decide for yourself at what point casting directors stop being 'practical' and start being part of the problem.
I've noticed a bit of a trend in adapting films from books where women characters are either left out of downgraded in importance.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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