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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Meaning of success
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
In the recent U.S. election, it seemed to me that the the Republican candidate, Mr. Romney, apparently believes that a successful American is one who acquires wealth. He doesn't seem to have any other criteria in mind.
There may be many people who agree with him, but I think it is far from universal. If you say that a person is "a success in life", what do you mean?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
ISTM that having "life and Liberty" and the ability to "pursue happiness" would make you more successful than quite a lot of people.
And there is pretty good evidence that the pursuit of money makes one anxious rather than happy.
But "success" is a bit different, because you might think yourself successful if you put lots of people out of work in the process of becoming rich. Mr. R. has managed that quite well, and didn't get his mark of "success" recognised by the voters, despite all that lovely shiny stuff that lets you buy things. Must be quite a shock to be told by many millions of people that your money doesn't, by itself, make you "successful" in their eyes.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
5 LORD, let me know mine end, and the number of my days; * that I may be certified how long I have to live.
6 Behold, thou hast made my days as it were a span long, and mine age is even as nothing in respect of thee; * and verily every man living is altogether vanity.
7 For man walketh in a vain shadow, and disquieteth himself in vain; * he heapeth up riches, and cannot tell who shall gather them.
(Psalm 39)
Here endeth the prooftext. Sorry for the ancient BCP version but it is by far the most poetic translation I think.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
To paraphrase Aristotle, call no man successful while he lives.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
If you say that a person is "a success in life", what do you mean?
To be loved most by those who know you best is how I'd quickly describe it. I've heard the following that appears to come from one Bessie Anderson Stanley:
"He has achieved success who has lived well, laughed often, and loved much; who has enjoyed the trust of pure women, the respect of intelligent men and the love of little children; who has filled his niche and accomplished his task; who has left the world better than he found it, whether an improved poppy, a perfect poem, or a rescued soul; who has always looked for the best in others and given them the best he had; whose life was an inspiration; whose memory a benediction."
To me, though, I won't consider myself a success if I do not have eternal life.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Bob Dylan, when he was too young to actually know what he was talking about, got it pretty much right when he said:
quote:
A man's a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Success for me is just being able to stay current with all the bills.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
I once found myself pondering how successful I had been - lots of factors have worked together to result in my lifestyle being rather less conventionally successful than I had anticipated. But then I started thinking about whether anyone else had actually benefited from my existance. It sounds a bit bigheaded to say so but, I think, in my own small way, I have been able to make a small contributions to many lives through my teaching, my work with children with disabilities, my prison visiting when I was younger, my own kids (though they might argue that one!).. what better success, maybe not to be remembered but to make a difference? And that difference might even pass on through generations - the raising of a child's self esteem may, in turn, equip them to do the same for somebody else. IN comparison, my desire for a nice, big house and enough money to pay a cleaner, my desire for a loving husband and kids I gave birth too as well as those I love as though I had, my desire for holidays and a new car and a well paid job... all these things are quite unimportant and transient in comparison.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
Surely, for a Christian, the only possible ultimate success can be sainthood—i.e. the utter attainment of the beatific vision by perfection of life and character.
By this measure, surely every human being must be considered a failure, save for the grace of God. Earthly success—that is to say, absolute, ultimate earthly success—is not a category that Christianity can recognise. The religion of the Crucified can hardly be one that prioritises human sucess.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I see it as fulfilment, which has different colours. I feel OK with secular success, which I have had in different ways and enjoyed, e.g. careers.
But there is a deeper fulfilment, which is just about now. Is the present moment itself fulfilling, as it is? Well, yes, sometimes. But this seems to lead to a spiritual and religious perspective.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
When I hear someone referred to as a "success," I assume that they have risen to the top of their profession. "Success" is intrinsically a social notion. If someone is called "happy," it may mean almost anything in terms of social position -- that is a more personal notion. But calling a happy person with no visible means of support "a success" strikes me as failing to understand the nuances of language.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Bob Dylan said:
quote:
A man's a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to.
<I very much suspect most men also regard themselves a success if they do what they want between going to bed and getting up as well>. Gag alert over.
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Pardon to rom-knee faithful if I say he's a bit of an ass-hat for saying that . It's Western economies that are successful because folk are given the opportunity to get themselves loaded . I fully accept if it was left to folk like me we'd still be living in mud-huts.
An individual may well think they are success if they die loaded, they are quite entitled to that view.
Yet a person who dies knowing and believing their life has been a success without getting loaded is , IMO, a far greater source of intrigue
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
In the recent U.S. election, it seemed to me that the the Republican candidate, Mr. Romney, apparently believes that a successful American is one who acquires wealth. He doesn't seem to have any other criteria in mind.
The man has a large family that he seems to love. He has to be proud of his children as they grow up, as any father would be. What makes you say that his only criteria for success is the amount in his bank account? Not to re-hash the whole election, but it seems like a low blow to suggest that someone you don't personally know cares more about the wealth he has acquired than the love of his family. I suspect that they have been more of a comfort to him in the last few weeks than his money has been. Look, I get it if you didn't vote for him, or wouldn't have voted for him if you cannot vote. But it is awfully presumptuous and a little rude to suggest that he cares so little about his accomplishments as a father that, when the end comes, he will measure the value of his life by how much money he has made.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Og, I think you may have a good point. I think what you are saying tells us more about what you regard as success than about Mr. Romney. You presume that he loves his family and that they love him; I imagine you are correct. You then presume that he would define success in such terms. I don't think that follows. Would Mr. Romney regard Mr. John Q. Public as successful if John and his family loved each other but he was not financially successful? The impression I have gotten from the campaign is that he would not; indeed, it appears he might despise such a man.
In any case, I did not start the thread simply to bash Romney. I do think that many people define success as financial success more than anything else. What are some other concepts of success? A loving relationship with family? Fame? Robust health? Personal integrity? Wisdom?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
But you haven't provided any grounds for your claim that Mr. Romney believes that success only means financial success. You didn't have to start with that dig. You could have just talked about success. But you did. And I want to know what makes you believe that, deep down, Mr. Romney has a one dimensional view of success; that at the end, he will not think of his life as a success because he was happily married and raised a good family, but only because he made a lot of money.
There is an old Jack Benny skit where a mugger holds a gun to his back and says "your money or your life." There is a long pause, and the mugger says again "your money or your life." Mr. Benny replies "I'm thinking! I'm thinking!" The skit is funny because we know that no one would actually think about this question. Yet you seem to think that Mr. Romney would. I want to know why.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Lucrezia Spagliatoni Dayglo
Apprentice
# 16907
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Posted
I was intending to start a new thread with this but it seems appropriate here (apologies if this article is elsewhere).
Father's email to his 3 adult children
I can understand his frustration but there's also something deeply sad about the whole thing.
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Work hard, drink hard, play hard and fall over hard.
Posts: 20 | From: "...an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet ..." | Registered: Jan 2012
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Zoey
Broken idealist
# 11152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucrezia Spagliatoni Dayglo:
I was intending to start a new thread with this but it seems appropriate here (apologies if this article is elsewhere).
Father's email to his 3 adult children
quote:
From the email:
We are constantly regaled with chapter and verse of the happy, successful lives of the families of our friends and relatives and being asked of news of our own children and grandchildren. I wonder if you realise how we feel — we have nothing to say which reflects any credit on you or us.
I think Mr Crews might need to learn to take what's said by his friends and relatives with a pinch of salt.
My late grandmother loved to boast of her grandchildren's achievements and to bitch about the poor choices of her friends' grandchildren. However, I'm pretty confident that when talking to her friends, acquaintances and gossip-buddies, she was rather selective in what she said, focussing (for example) on the fact that I (just-about) gained a degree from a prestigious university, rather than the fact that I spent a number of weeks hospitalised in a psychiatric ward whilst doing so and was un- or under-employed for a number of years afterwards due to my mental-health problems.
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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.
Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Wikipedia definition says: (1)the accomplishment of an aim or purpose, and (2) the attainment of popularity or profit
So I don't think I can call myself a success! just a sort of middle-of-the-road life with all its ups and downs. I agree with Smudgie about the teaching - I still find that I'm remembered kindly by pupils from the 70s and 80s who recognise me occasionally.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
An aged relative said to me once.
'If i had my time over again ,I would marry the same man, and have the same children'
She lived at a time when women had no choice of career and her marriage had it's ups and downs like any other. But she took full responsibility for herself, her decisions and her family and she loved them all without showing favouritism, with a clear eye, warts and all.
I think that that is a successful life.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Og's latest comment leads to an interesting question. Do we think of success as a determination to make at the end of a person's life--a lifetime achievement award--or is it a conscious goal towards which one works throughout life? Are there people who achieve success in the first sense without a conscious goal? (I think so.) If you have a conscious goal, a concept of the success you hope to achieve, are there times when you readjust your goal, redefining your personal concept of success?
Are there parts of success that we take for granted, so we assume that, as a matter of course, any success must include health and family and self-respect but must also include something more (wealth, fame)?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Bob Dylan said:
quote:
A man's a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to.
<I very much suspect most men also regard themselves a success if they do what they want between going to bed and getting up as well>. Gag alert over.
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There was a guy in my former home town, a very "successful" financial planner and stockbroker, who one day just disappeared (along with about a half-mil of the firm's money). When they caught him five years later somewhere in the South Pacific, he admitted he'd done it because he was miserable in his "successful" career. The quote that stuck with me was:
quote:
Never get good at something you hate--they'll make you do it for the rest of your life.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucrezia Spagliatoni Dayglo:
I was intending to start a new thread with this but it seems appropriate here (apologies if this article is elsewhere).
Father's email to his 3 adult children
I can understand his frustration but there's also something deeply sad about the whole thing.
It is said you should stop blaming your parents when you're 25 - after that it's your fault. But when should parents stop feeling they are responsible for their children. As you say it's a deeply sad article but did you notice:
I can now tell you that I for one, and I sense Mum feels the same, have had enough of being forced to live through the never-ending bad dream of our children's underachievement and domestic ineptitudes.
He senses his wife feels the same but has he thought of talking to her about it?
My mother has always been disappointed in me. Once she announced, quite seriously, to my wife that I would have been perfect if I'd died when I was eight. Not sure what happened at age nine!
And my disappointing life? A series of computing and/or teaching jobs ending as head of a university department. But I never had the only job that counted with her: one in the armed services.
If you think I have been unfair in what I have said, by all means try to persuade me to change my mind.
I wouldn't bother if I was one of his children. Somehow I know it won't work.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Up-thread, I seem to recall that somebody observed that we should call no man 'successful' whilst he lives. I can go along with that. I guess that my life could be thought a success if, when I'm gone, I am remembered with affection and, maybe, a little respect.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Standard of living does not equal quality of living.
In my lifetime, one of the things of which I will always be most proud is that, more than 100 times, I have united people who seemed deeply in love in holy matrimony; to have had the privilege of doing something that profound makes just about all else pale in comparision.
But - one of the young women, it turned out, had a husband in Eastern Europe to whom she was still legally married, and she had sought out marriage in Canada hoping to eventually, after receiving her citizenship, become divorced and bring her husband over as a sponsored immigrant.
So, does that make every marriage I conducted a failure? No? Same goes with much of what we do in our lives, IMHO.
[ 25. November 2012, 18:48: Message edited by: Loquacious beachcomber ]
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
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