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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dickens' Christmas Carol
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I am enjoying an audiobook of the 1843 tale read by the fabulous Jim Dale.
It got me thinking about the story and the context in which Dickens wrote it.
I understand that it helped to reinvent Christmas, which had fallen on hard times in English society in the 18th and early 19th century.
I have also heard that it was instrumental in forging an enduring cultural link between the celebration of Christmas and the practices and attitudes of a Christian life.
Is this true?
I also wonder about Dickens' device of the spirits that visited Scrooge. Was this something commonly believed at the time? That is, that ghosts might speak to people, that they could show people their early lives, or that people could forge spiritual chains by the actions of their lives.
I'd be interested in any thoughts that you might have about any of these things. The story is so well known that these don't seem like novel ideas. Were they novel at the time?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I remember reading in some critic - it may have been Chesterton - that given the amount of Christmas folklore, it was remarkable that Dickens actually had to invent some (the spirits of Christmas originated with him).
The thing is, they are not angels, they are - particularly Christmas Present - Dickens: radical, celebratory and nonsectarian. Tiny Tim's saccharine piety aside, it is a very Humanist work.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
No, many of our older Christmas traditions are medieval, some are Dickensian and mid-Victorian, some are late Victorian.
The Dickensian themes of Christmas were already in place; Dickens merely reflected them in his books and thereby published and preserved them.
Things like eating goose, singing Christmas songs like 'God rest ye merry, Gentlemen' and hanging greens were all old English customs anyway.
The obligatory 'Dickensian' snow scene at Christmas is entirely down to the fact that until the 1840s English winters were indeed very snowy, something that changed in the latter half of the century and continues until today, though judging by recent phenomena it seems that the Dickensian snowy Christmas may be making a come-back.
The Christmas tree, as you know, was a European custom brought to England by Prince Albert.
Many Christmas carols are late Victorian, or even American sentiment - stuff like Once in Royal David's City and O Little Town of Bethlehem, respectively.
Finally, as far as visiting spirits are concerned, A Christmas Carol is just another in the long tradition of European fairy tales and nothing more should be read into it than Dickens using a literary device of spirits doing what humans can't do.
Just a comment about the ghost of Christmas present - he is a very pagan spirit and in the illustrations that were published at the same time as the book he is pictured as the pagan kind of Father Christmas that the English - certainly of my generation and before - used to prefer (not the American Santa). He certainly didn't invent him, he included him because he was the traditional embodiment of Christmas (and has been ruined by the Americans, I'm afraid).
see HERE for the original Dickensian GofCP
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
One thing a modern reader might not pick up on is that Ebeneezer Scrooge letting Bob Cratchit have the day off for Christmas was actually pretty generous, since it was by no means a given that workers would have the day off during this period. Note that Scrooge expects that the poulterer will be open and making deliveries on Christmas morning when he orders the turkey for the Cratchits.
The day just wasn't as big a thing in Dickens' English speaking world. While it was a day to drink, eat, dance, and give small gifts, it didn't really interrupt day-to-day life like it does today. As someone else already said, its popularity was actually waning until Dickens almost single handedly arrested the decline.
It was worse off in the US, actually. Anglicans and Catholics, a tiny minority and a tinier one back then, were practically the only people that noted the day. Certainly Congregationalists would have nothing to do with it, since the Puritans associated the day with the sin of enjoying oneself.
[ 24. November 2012, 17:47: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I've also heard that contrary to most people's impressions, Bob Cratchett's salery was pretty standard for the time.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
...He certainly didn't invent him, he included him because he was the traditional embodiment of Christmas (and has been ruined by the Americans, I'm afraid).
This American version will always be the Ghost of Christmas Present for me. Sorry.
[ETA Unable to fix this link, DT, Purgatory Host]
[ 24. November 2012, 19:38: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I remember reading in some critic - it may have been Chesterton - that given the amount of Christmas folklore, it was remarkable that Dickens actually had to invent some (the spirits of Christmas originated with him).
That is very interesting. Looking for confirmation I ran into this quote:
quote:
When Dickens wrote “A Christmas Carol,” the London Times hadn’t mentioned Christmas for over 30 years.
But I would love to know if Chesterton did say something about Dickens' inventions in the story.
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
The thing is, they are not angels, they are - particularly Christmas Present - Dickens: radical, celebratory and nonsectarian. Tiny Tim's saccharine piety aside, it is a very Humanist work.
Yes, I am really noticing that.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Certainly Congregationalists would have nothing to do with it, since the Puritans associated the day with the sin of enjoying oneself.
I used to know some members of a Scotch Presbyterian splinter group who insisted on always referring to Christmas as Advent, and sedulously ignoring all its cultural manifestations.
For a nineteenth century Brethren attitude toward Christmas, check out the famous Incident of the Slice of Christmas Pudding ("the accursed thing") in Gosse's Father and Son.
Such sentiments persist; my ninety year-old mother-in-law, of ancient Brethren lineage, has a sweet and irenic disposition, but passionately hates Father Christmas.
[ 24. November 2012, 18:38: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The day just wasn't as big a thing in Dickens' English speaking world.
When I lived in West Africa I was disappointed that even though most people were Christian - and passionately so - Christmas was barely noted.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Aren't we overlooking the whole point here that Scrooge was infamous for NOT wanting to keep Christmas just when others were or wanted to? isn't that the whole point of the story?
I find it hard to believe that anyone would have found the story compelling if no one really celebrated it anyway - what's the big deal with Scrooge if he wasn't keeping Christmas? No one else was so it's hardly a good story:
Great new story ; old man doesn't observe Christmas! Just like you don't!
It is clear to me that the whole point of A Christmas Carol is that people were having a great time at Christmas except this miserable bloke!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Scrooge was more being called into account for not being a generous person than merely not celebrating Christmas.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Nicolemr: I've also heard that contrary to most people's impressions, Bob Cratchett's salery was pretty standard for the time.
Dickens was campaigning to show the conditions in which the workers were living and working through his books. (As was Hardy to some degree)
I thought Prince Albert brought Christmas observances over from Germany too, famously the tree, but also other things. So there were several things happening together, not just Dickens.
@Firenze - my daughter studied this one for her GCSE English literature. When writing the coursework essay she was wandering around spluttering indignantly about the Tiny Tim subplot. I suggested bathetic was the word she was looking for. She checked it in the dictionary, agreed and included it.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Freddy: When I lived in West Africa I was disappointed that even though most people were Christian - and passionately so - Christmas was barely noted.
Same here in Mozambique. Although I have to say the lack of Christmas decoration in the shops is quite a relief.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
One does try in vain to imagine what debilitating illness Tiny Tim has that could be easily cured with Victorian era medicine. Cocaine withdrawal?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Scrooge was more being called into account for not being a generous person than merely not celebrating Christmas.
Well of course, but all around him people were celebrating Christmas - just look at his nephew and the Cratchett family.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The day just wasn't as big a thing in Dickens' English speaking world.
It wasn't that big a thing in Scotland. There are people living who can remember when it was just an ordinary working day. (Hogmanay was the major winter festival).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
One thing a modern reader might not pick up on is that Ebeneezer Scrooge letting Bob Cratchit have the day off for Christmas was actually pretty generous, since it was by no means a given that workers would have the day off during this period. Note that Scrooge expects that the poulterer will be open and making deliveries on Christmas morning when he orders the turkey for the Cratchits.
The day just wasn't as big a thing in Dickens' English speaking world. While it was a day to drink, eat, dance, and give small gifts, it didn't really interrupt day-to-day life like it does today. As someone else already said, its popularity was actually waning until Dickens almost single handedly arrested the decline.
The idea that Christmas is so big that almost everything should stop is really quite recent. A full set of league football (soccer) matches was played in Scotland on Christmas day until 1971, with some matches still being played on that day until 1976. Matches were played on Christmas day in England until 1959.
I think the matches were played in the mornings, so men would go to the match, if it was local, and then home to the lunch their wife had prepared.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Well indeed - but you're comparing late medieval into early Victorian England with Scotland which had a whole different culture.
Even now New Year is a Scottish-flavoured occasion which, to be quite honest, doesn't excite me very much.
An English Christmas, well that's another thing.
I think we'd be hard-pressed to list many things that Dickens invented and bequeathed to us as 'Christmas'
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I love Christmas in India. The newspaper hypes in up for the middle classes, the stores may have a Father Christmas, Christians put out the fairy lights (but so do the Hindus). The religious aspects of Christmas is widely celebrated in the part of India I stay in.
Fine by me.
As for Dickens, I quite enjoy his Christmas Carol. I once read a novel based on Tiny Tim as an adult. He dealt in illicit goods. The rest of his family were as bathetic as he was as a child. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Even more so than I was before
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
One does try in vain to imagine what debilitating illness Tiny Tim has that could be easily cured with Victorian era medicine. Cocaine withdrawal?
Scurvy ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Even now New Year is a Scottish-flavoured occasion which, to be quite honest, doesn't excite me very much.
Ye dinnae ken what yer missin' hen.
quote:
I think we'd be hard-pressed to list many things that Dickens invented and bequeathed to us as 'Christmas'
Don't forget
Pickwick Papers ...
Dickens was a powerfully nostalgic writer. It's maybe not so apparent to us now, but in PP and in other novels and occasional writings he is evoking his childhood ( he overlapped with Jane Austen). From the POV of even his contemporary readers, this was a pre-Industrial Revolution pastoral England. The 1840s were a decade of famine and revolution. The combination of an evocation of lost paradise with a call to restore that Eden through the exercise of universal benevolence is extraordinarily strong. It transcends its time, and works, ISTM, even yet.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
An unfortunate side effect of the American "system" is that American Thanksgiving sucks up the generosity and eating from Christmas, while American New Year's Eve takes up most of the drinking and partying aspect. Which leaves behind excessive gift giving and an obsession with the cult of childhood for American Christmas. I like the glimpses of Christmas we get in a Christmas Carol more, I gotta say.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But I would love to know if Chesterton did say something about Dickens' inventions in the story.
If Chesterton did, it wasn't in his introduction to A Christmas Carol. In that, Chesterton talks about why Dickens' unconscious Christianity makes him so good at writing about happiness. (The answer being that other artists try to show beautiful people being happy and only succeed in depicting melancholy, but Dickens writes about poor and grotesque people who are happy.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
This is a story of redemption of Scrooge. He starts out as a real mean so & so ends up the man who knew how to keep Christmas .
Cratchitt is every worker who is underpaid,overworked and exploited.
Tiny Tim stands for every person who is sick or maginalized,
It is the story that reminds people you can not be a mean nasty so & so.
President F.D.Roosevelt read this to his family every Christmas .
And it is my 2nd favorite Christmas book Alistair Sims ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
outside of the Gospels, Favorite ? "A Child's Christmas in Wales , D.Thomas" It is also makes a fantastic movie .Best production "A Christmas Carol"
[ 24. November 2012, 21:07: Message edited by: PaulBC ]
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I remember reading in some critic - it may have been Chesterton - that given the amount of Christmas folklore, it was remarkable that Dickens actually had to invent some (the spirits of Christmas originated with him).
That is very interesting. Looking for confirmation I ran into this quote:
quote:
When Dickens wrote “A Christmas Carol,” the London Times hadn’t mentioned Christmas for over 30 years.
That is, alas, the sheerest poppycock. A quick search of the Times archive for 1800-1842 reveals a hit of 178 pieces where "Christmas" is the key word, and 6238 pieces where it is mentioned at least once.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But I would love to know if Chesterton did say something about Dickens' inventions in the story.
If Chesterton did, it wasn't in his introduction to A Christmas Carol.
He did write a whole book on Dickens. OTOH, it may have been someone else entirely. Nevertheless, the Spirits are original - and have not really had an afterlife outside of CC. Christmas Present has been subsumed into Santa Claus, which is a pity, as the idea of a midwinter king who waxes and ages in a single day is a much more poetic idea.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Aren't we overlooking the whole point here that Scrooge was infamous for NOT wanting to keep Christmas just when others were or wanted to? isn't that the whole point of the story?
I wondered the same thing. Yet many sources, such as Wikipedia, make statements like:
quote:
It has been credited with restoring the holiday to one of merriment and festivity in Britain and America after a period of sobriety and sombreness.
So it seems as though the merriment that Dickens describes was not actually as common as he suggests. Instead Dickens' sentimental descriptions served the purpose of establishing themselves as a popular ideal.
The impression I get is that Christmas had been celebrated in many parts with more enthusiasm in the past. Dickens is partly engaging in nostalgia, and doing it quite successfully.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
That is, alas, the sheerest poppycock. A quick search of the Times archive for 1800-1842 reveals a hit of 178 pieces where "Christmas" is the key word, and 6238 pieces where it is mentioned at least once.
True though some of the mentions are for it being a date and not festivities (e.g., "The Duke and Duchess of Cumberland are expected in London soon after Christmas"). And some are articles about how foreign parts celebrate it. And at least a few people had the surname of "Christmas" (including one on trial for embezzlement). More applicable would be a "constant reader" complaining about extortionate charges for sending packages at Christmas time. Or from 1823 "It was bruited forth that a pantomime of more than ordinary spirit would last night crown the delights of the Christmas revellers." In 1825 Father Christmas writes to the Times to warn readers about dishonest sellers of geese. In 1842 "A Quilldriver" writes requesting that masters give Monday off as a holyday since Christmas that year fell on Sunday. "Christmas-day falling on Sunday prevents the usual recreative enjoyments of that festive day, so that Monday would answer the double occasion of making the jocund face of old father Christmas sparkle, and also of celebrating our recent achievements abroad."
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spinner of webs
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
This is a story of redemption of Scrooge. He starts out as a real mean so & so ends up the man who knew how to keep Christmas .
Cratchitt is every worker who is underpaid,overworked and exploited.
Tiny Tim stands for every person who is sick or maginalized,
It is the story that reminds people you can not be a mean nasty so & so.
I agree re Cratchitt and the same is true of Scrooge, he isn't meant to be an out of the ordinary misanthropist and tightwad, hence Cratchitt's wage is standard for the day. Scrooge is representing the greedy owners of capital who exploit their employees as much as they can to maximise their personal wealth. Scrooge's redemption is inspirational to all of the other greedy so-and-sos who should see elements of themselves in Scrooge.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
To a certain extent, making the book about just Christmas is to miss the point. Dickens is looking at the spirit at the center of Christmas: generosity to others and gratitude for what one has in life. Dickens hardly mentions Jesus, for he seems to have found the value of Christmas in those virtues instead.
[ 25. November 2012, 01:18: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I also wonder about Dickens' device of the spirits that visited Scrooge. Was this something commonly believed at the time? That is, that ghosts might speak to people, that they could show people their early lives, or that people could forge spiritual chains by the actions of their lives.
Not having lived at that period, I cannot know for sure, but I highly doubt it. I fail to see the necessary link, however, between believing in ghosts and believing "that people could forge spiritual chains by the actions of their lives."
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Marley and his clanking chain of money boxes is much more reminiscent of the sin-appropriate penances of Purgatory, or the afterlife journey.
If hosen and shoon thou ne'er gav'st nane
The whinnies shall prick thee to the bare bane
Note the torments in The Lyke Wake Dirge are linked to failures of practical charity.
[ 25. November 2012, 07:23: Message edited by: Firenze ]
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
One does try in vain to imagine what debilitating illness Tiny Tim has that could be easily cured with Victorian era medicine. Cocaine withdrawal?
Scurvy ?
Malnutrition, lack of adequate clothing, cold? All of these things would interfere with the body's ability to heal itself.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
One does try in vain to imagine what debilitating illness Tiny Tim has that could be easily cured with Victorian era medicine. Cocaine withdrawal?
Scurvy ?
Malnutrition, lack of adequate clothing, cold? All of these things would interfere with the body's ability to heal itself.
Moo
Rickets? - which, althought the Victorians wouldn't have known about such things, can often be alleviated by an increased intake of vitamin D.
What I'd like to know about is what we're often told is the "tradition" of telling ghost stories at Christmas - CC is, of course, a ghost story, one of several that Dickens wrote. While this certainly was a tradition in some places by the end of the 19th century, where did it come from? Was Dickens instrumental in getting it started, or was it already established by the time he wrote CC?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
MAMILLIUS:A sad tale's best for winter: I have one
Of sprites and goblins.
HERMIONE:Let's have that, good sir.
Come on, sit down: come on, and do your best
To fright me with your sprites; you're powerful at it.
MAMILLIUS:There was a man--
HERMIONE:Nay, come, sit down; then on.
MAMILLIUS:Dwelt by a churchyard: I will tell it softly;
Yond crickets shall not hear it.
Which rather suggests that in Shakespeare's day sitting round the fireside scaring the bejabbers out of each other was not unknown.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
It might interest people that the celebration of Christmas was not universal in England in the early twentieth century. The reason I note this is that a church I used to go to was founding in the 1920s as a mission by Lancashire Congregationalists. As a fund raiser for the missions local churches were encouraged to hold fairs and such like on the 25th December.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Scrooge is representing the greedy owners of capital who exploit their employees as much as they can to maximise their personal wealth. Scrooge's redemption is inspirational to all of the other greedy so-and-sos who should see elements of themselves in Scrooge.
I had thought that the Leaders of Business and their lackeys (Thatcher, GWBush, Romney, Cameron...) were only trying to take things back to pre-WW1, but I see their history lesson goes back another 80 years or so.
Admittedly, they don't really want the nuisance of keeping slaves if the idea of a wage-slave will do.
Sorry, didn't mean to leave Evangeline's name out of this.
[ 25. November 2012, 15:34: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
As I said above, Dickens was writing CC at an extraordinarily scary time. An ancient, agrarian way of life, an old England that was still in many way continuous with the Middle Ages was being violently changed by industry and technology. There was strong pressure for electoral reform. Ireland was about to hit the worst episode of starvation and mass migration in its history. Given the Corn Laws, things were not that much better for the English poor.
The message is that the employer class need to attend to the workers, both at an indivual level (your specific Cratchit) but also generally -
This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased. Deny it!' cried the Spirit, stretching out its hand towards the city. 'Slander those who tell it ye! Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse! And abide the end!'
'Have they no refuge or resource?' cried Scrooge.
'Are there no prisons?' said the Spirit, turning on him for the last time with his own words. 'Are there no workhouses?'
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mullygrub
Up and over
# 9113
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Posted
Firenze, I'm so glad you mentioned the boy and girl -- I have long been saddened that two of the most important characters (types, rather than characters, perhaps?) in ACC (imo) are generally excluded from modern adaptations. Probably for space / clarity of the story, I'm sure, but still...
My reading of Dickens generally, and certainly ACC specifically, lends me to view his works as social commentary and a call to action first always, regardless of the particular subject matter (Christmas time / an anonymous benefactor and a crazy old spinster / lives intersecting and combusting (quite literally, in the case of one character ) in Chancery / etc / etc); and it would seem that as he got older, he was less inclined to cage his sharp and biting satire in the humour that he became known for. Or, perhaps (rather) this humour just grew in its bite.
ETA: No, "combusting" is not really a real word. But in the spirit of Dickens, I'm claiming it! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
[ 25. November 2012, 23:52: Message edited by: Mullygrub ]
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Smurfs are weird. And so am I.
Posts: 634 | From: Melbskies | Registered: Feb 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
We did ACC in about 7 minutes with kids at church last year, but still included those two characters. Too important not to, especially the impact of the Spirit's reminding Scrooge of his own words.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Firenze, I'm so glad you mentioned the boy and girl -- I have long been saddened that two of the most important characters (types, rather than characters, perhaps?) in ACC (imo) are generally excluded from modern adaptations. Probably for space / clarity of the story, I'm sure, but still...
Yet, they have space to add a scene where Scrooge personally delivers the turkey to the Crachits' along with some toys for Tiny Tim. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Scrooge personally delivers the turkey to the Crachits' along with some toys for Tiny Tim.
Best part of the whole show. Lost it completely. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Foxymoron
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# 10343
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Posted
Ronald Hutton's magisterial "The Stations of the Sun: A History of the Ritual Year in Britain" says that christmas was a massive sprawling twelve-day blow-out throughout the medieval period but post-reformation was frowned upon by the sort of puritans who believed that stained glass windows corrupt the soul. Over a period of 150 years or so christmas withered away due to the combined effect of continual pulpits denunciations and repeated reductions in the length of the holiday, until it was only one day off and hardly acknowledged as an official holiday at all. Parliament met on christmas day, although sarcastic questions were asked due to the regular dramatic drop in the number of MPs attending who all found reasons to be doing "important work in their constituencies" on that day.
So christmas is an original and ancient British festival, rather than something we only knocked up a couple of hundred years ago.
Posts: 72 | From: Surrey | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lucrezia Spagliatoni Dayglo
Apprentice
# 16907
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Posted
quote:
Yet, they have space to add a scene where Scrooge personally delivers the turkey to the Crachits' along with some toys for Tiny Tim. [Roll Eyes]
It was a Turkey! He never could have stood upon his legs, that bird. He would have snapped 'em short off in a minute, like sticks of sealing-wax. "Why, it's impossible to carry that to Camden Town," said Scrooge. "You must have a cab."
So poor Mrs Cratchit is presented with an enormous turkey which presumably she has to pluck and draw before cooking. She'll then have to fit it into her stove (something which many of us have faced on Christmas Day!)and roast the blighter. Presumably they all died from food poisoning ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Work hard, drink hard, play hard and fall over hard.
Posts: 20 | From: "...an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet ..." | Registered: Jan 2012
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
You know, I've always thought that. (Speaking as someone who is most familiar with the Muppets' version of the story).
Were I Mrs Cratchit, and someone turned up with a huge, uncooked bird on my doorstep just before lunch on Christmas Day I strongly suspect my response would be along the lines of 'sod that, take us to the Ivy'.
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Foxymoron:
Over a period of 150 years or so christmas withered away due to the combined effect of continual pulpits denunciations and repeated reductions in the length of the holiday, until it was only one day off and hardly acknowledged as an official holiday at all.
Thank you! That really helps to explain it.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lothiriel
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# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mullygrub:
Firenze, I'm so glad you mentioned the boy and girl -- I have long been saddened that two of the most important characters (types, rather than characters, perhaps?) in ACC (imo) are generally excluded from modern adaptations. Probably for space / clarity of the story, I'm sure, but still...
This is one of the reasons that the Patrick Stewart film version is my favourite -- that scene is included.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucrezia Spagliatoni Dayglo:
So poor Mrs Cratchit is presented with an enormous turkey which presumably she has to pluck and draw before cooking. She'll then have to fit it into her stove (something which many of us have faced on Christmas Day!)and roast the blighter. Presumably they all died from food poisoning
The fitting in the oven may not be such a huge problem -- I can't remember where I read this (maybe in notes in my edition of ACC?) -- but at that time, people would take their roasts to local bakeries for cooking. Since bread was baked in large, very hot ovens early in the day, these were available for people to roast their meat as the ovens slowly cooled down.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lucrezia Spagliatoni Dayglo
Apprentice
# 16907
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by birdie
You know, I've always thought that. (Speaking as someone who is most familiar with the Muppets' version of the story). Were I Mrs Cratchit, and someone turned up with a huge, uncooked bird on my doorstep just before lunch on Christmas Day I strongly suspect my response would be along the lines of 'sod that, take us to the Ivy'.
I love the Muppets' version. I've always had visions of Miss Piggy ramming the turkey onto Scrooge's head, 'hiya!'
quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel
The fitting in the oven may not be such a huge problem -- I can't remember where I read this (maybe in notes in my edition of ACC?) -- but at that time, people would take their roasts to local bakeries for cooking. Since bread was baked in large, very hot ovens early in the day, these were available for people to roast their meat as the ovens slowly cooled down.
Yes, I seem to remember reading/hearing something like that too. Knowing Mrs Cartchit's luck there would have been no room in the oven due to late arrival of her turkey! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Work hard, drink hard, play hard and fall over hard.
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