Originally posted by Zach82:
Scrooge personally delivers the turkey to the Crachits' along with some toys for Tiny Tim.
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quote:This American version will always be the Ghost of Christmas Present for me. Sorry.
...He certainly didn't invent him, he included him because he was the traditional embodiment of Christmas (and has been ruined by the Americans, I'm afraid).
quote:That is very interesting. Looking for confirmation I ran into this quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I remember reading in some critic - it may have been Chesterton - that given the amount of Christmas folklore, it was remarkable that Dickens actually had to invent some (the spirits of Christmas originated with him).
quote:But I would love to know if Chesterton did say something about Dickens' inventions in the story.
When Dickens wrote “A Christmas Carol,” the London Times hadn’t mentioned Christmas for over 30 years.
quote:Yes, I am really noticing that.
Originally posted by Firenze:
The thing is, they are not angels, they are - particularly Christmas Present - Dickens: radical, celebratory and nonsectarian. Tiny Tim's saccharine piety aside, it is a very Humanist work.
quote:I used to know some members of a Scotch Presbyterian splinter group who insisted on always referring to Christmas as Advent, and sedulously ignoring all its cultural manifestations.
Originally posted by Zach82:
Certainly Congregationalists would have nothing to do with it, since the Puritans associated the day with the sin of enjoying oneself.
quote:When I lived in West Africa I was disappointed that even though most people were Christian - and passionately so - Christmas was barely noted.
Originally posted by Zach82:
The day just wasn't as big a thing in Dickens' English speaking world.
quote:Dickens was campaigning to show the conditions in which the workers were living and working through his books. (As was Hardy to some degree)
Nicolemr: I've also heard that contrary to most people's impressions, Bob Cratchett's salery was pretty standard for the time.
quote:Same here in Mozambique. Although I have to say the lack of Christmas decoration in the shops is quite a relief.
Freddy: When I lived in West Africa I was disappointed that even though most people were Christian - and passionately so - Christmas was barely noted.
quote:Well of course, but all around him people were celebrating Christmas - just look at his nephew and the Cratchett family.
Originally posted by Zach82:
Scrooge was more being called into account for not being a generous person than merely not celebrating Christmas.
quote:It wasn't that big a thing in Scotland. There are people living who can remember when it was just an ordinary working day. (Hogmanay was the major winter festival).
Originally posted by Zach82:
The day just wasn't as big a thing in Dickens' English speaking world.
quote:The idea that Christmas is so big that almost everything should stop is really quite recent. A full set of league football (soccer) matches was played in Scotland on Christmas day until 1971, with some matches still being played on that day until 1976. Matches were played on Christmas day in England until 1959.
Originally posted by Zach82:
One thing a modern reader might not pick up on is that Ebeneezer Scrooge letting Bob Cratchit have the day off for Christmas was actually pretty generous, since it was by no means a given that workers would have the day off during this period. Note that Scrooge expects that the poulterer will be open and making deliveries on Christmas morning when he orders the turkey for the Cratchits.
The day just wasn't as big a thing in Dickens' English speaking world. While it was a day to drink, eat, dance, and give small gifts, it didn't really interrupt day-to-day life like it does today. As someone else already said, its popularity was actually waning until Dickens almost single handedly arrested the decline.
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quote:Scurvy ?
Originally posted by Zach82:
One does try in vain to imagine what debilitating illness Tiny Tim has that could be easily cured with Victorian era medicine. Cocaine withdrawal?
quote:Ye dinnae ken what yer missin' hen.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Even now New Year is a Scottish-flavoured occasion which, to be quite honest, doesn't excite me very much.
quote:Don't forget
I think we'd be hard-pressed to list many things that Dickens invented and bequeathed to us as 'Christmas'
quote:If Chesterton did, it wasn't in his introduction to A Christmas Carol. In that, Chesterton talks about why Dickens' unconscious Christianity makes him so good at writing about happiness. (The answer being that other artists try to show beautiful people being happy and only succeed in depicting melancholy, but Dickens writes about poor and grotesque people who are happy.)
Originally posted by Freddy:
But I would love to know if Chesterton did say something about Dickens' inventions in the story.
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![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
quote:That is, alas, the sheerest poppycock. A quick search of the Times archive for 1800-1842 reveals a hit of 178 pieces where "Christmas" is the key word, and 6238 pieces where it is mentioned at least once.
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:That is very interesting. Looking for confirmation I ran into this quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I remember reading in some critic - it may have been Chesterton - that given the amount of Christmas folklore, it was remarkable that Dickens actually had to invent some (the spirits of Christmas originated with him).
quote:
When Dickens wrote “A Christmas Carol,” the London Times hadn’t mentioned Christmas for over 30 years.
quote:He did write a whole book on Dickens. OTOH, it may have been someone else entirely. Nevertheless, the Spirits are original - and have not really had an afterlife outside of CC. Christmas Present has been subsumed into Santa Claus, which is a pity, as the idea of a midwinter king who waxes and ages in a single day is a much more poetic idea.
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:If Chesterton did, it wasn't in his introduction to A Christmas Carol.
Originally posted by Freddy:
But I would love to know if Chesterton did say something about Dickens' inventions in the story.
quote:I wondered the same thing. Yet many sources, such as Wikipedia, make statements like:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Aren't we overlooking the whole point here that Scrooge was infamous for NOT wanting to keep Christmas just when others were or wanted to? isn't that the whole point of the story?
quote:So it seems as though the merriment that Dickens describes was not actually as common as he suggests. Instead Dickens' sentimental descriptions served the purpose of establishing themselves as a popular ideal.
It has been credited with restoring the holiday to one of merriment and festivity in Britain and America after a period of sobriety and sombreness.
quote:True though some of the mentions are for it being a date and not festivities (e.g., "The Duke and Duchess of Cumberland are expected in London soon after Christmas"). And some are articles about how foreign parts celebrate it. And at least a few people had the surname of "Christmas" (including one on trial for embezzlement). More applicable would be a "constant reader" complaining about extortionate charges for sending packages at Christmas time. Or from 1823 "It was bruited forth that a pantomime of more than ordinary spirit would last night crown the delights of the Christmas revellers." In 1825 Father Christmas writes to the Times to warn readers about dishonest sellers of geese. In 1842 "A Quilldriver" writes requesting that masters give Monday off as a holyday since Christmas that year fell on Sunday. "Christmas-day falling on Sunday prevents the usual recreative enjoyments of that festive day, so that Monday would answer the double occasion of making the jocund face of old father Christmas sparkle, and also of celebrating our recent achievements abroad."
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
That is, alas, the sheerest poppycock. A quick search of the Times archive for 1800-1842 reveals a hit of 178 pieces where "Christmas" is the key word, and 6238 pieces where it is mentioned at least once.
quote:I agree re Cratchitt and the same is true of Scrooge, he isn't meant to be an out of the ordinary misanthropist and tightwad, hence Cratchitt's wage is standard for the day. Scrooge is representing the greedy owners of capital who exploit their employees as much as they can to maximise their personal wealth. Scrooge's redemption is inspirational to all of the other greedy so-and-sos who should see elements of themselves in Scrooge.
Originally posted by PaulBC:
This is a story of redemption of Scrooge. He starts out as a real mean so & so ends up the man who knew how to keep Christmas .
Cratchitt is every worker who is underpaid,overworked and exploited.
Tiny Tim stands for every person who is sick or maginalized,
It is the story that reminds people you can not be a mean nasty so & so.
quote:Not having lived at that period, I cannot know for sure, but I highly doubt it. I fail to see the necessary link, however, between believing in ghosts and believing "that people could forge spiritual chains by the actions of their lives."
Originally posted by Freddy:
I also wonder about Dickens' device of the spirits that visited Scrooge. Was this something commonly believed at the time? That is, that ghosts might speak to people, that they could show people their early lives, or that people could forge spiritual chains by the actions of their lives.
quote:Malnutrition, lack of adequate clothing, cold? All of these things would interfere with the body's ability to heal itself.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:Scurvy ?
Originally posted by Zach82:
One does try in vain to imagine what debilitating illness Tiny Tim has that could be easily cured with Victorian era medicine. Cocaine withdrawal?
quote:Rickets? - which, althought the Victorians wouldn't have known about such things, can often be alleviated by an increased intake of vitamin D.
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:Malnutrition, lack of adequate clothing, cold? All of these things would interfere with the body's ability to heal itself.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:Scurvy ?
Originally posted by Zach82:
One does try in vain to imagine what debilitating illness Tiny Tim has that could be easily cured with Victorian era medicine. Cocaine withdrawal?
Moo
quote:I had thought that the Leaders of Business and their lackeys (Thatcher, GWBush, Romney, Cameron...) were only trying to take things back to pre-WW1, but I see their history lesson goes back another 80 years or so.
Scrooge is representing the greedy owners of capital who exploit their employees as much as they can to maximise their personal wealth. Scrooge's redemption is inspirational to all of the other greedy so-and-sos who should see elements of themselves in Scrooge.
) in Chancery / etc / etc); and it would seem that as he got older, he was less inclined to cage his sharp and biting satire in the humour that he became known for. Or, perhaps (rather) this humour just grew in its bite.![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:Yet, they have space to add a scene where Scrooge personally delivers the turkey to the Crachits' along with some toys for Tiny Tim.
Firenze, I'm so glad you mentioned the boy and girl -- I have long been saddened that two of the most important characters (types, rather than characters, perhaps?) in ACC (imo) are generally excluded from modern adaptations. Probably for space / clarity of the story, I'm sure, but still...
quote:Best part of the whole show. Lost it completely.
Originally posted by Zach82:
Scrooge personally delivers the turkey to the Crachits' along with some toys for Tiny Tim.
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:It was a Turkey! He never could have stood upon his legs, that bird. He would have snapped 'em short off in a minute, like sticks of sealing-wax. "Why, it's impossible to carry that to Camden Town," said Scrooge. "You must have a cab."
Yet, they have space to add a scene where Scrooge personally delivers the turkey to the Crachits' along with some toys for Tiny Tim. [Roll Eyes]
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
quote:Thank you! That really helps to explain it.
Originally posted by Foxymoron:
Over a period of 150 years or so christmas withered away due to the combined effect of continual pulpits denunciations and repeated reductions in the length of the holiday, until it was only one day off and hardly acknowledged as an official holiday at all.
quote:This is one of the reasons that the Patrick Stewart film version is my favourite -- that scene is included.
Originally posted by Mullygrub:
Firenze, I'm so glad you mentioned the boy and girl -- I have long been saddened that two of the most important characters (types, rather than characters, perhaps?) in ACC (imo) are generally excluded from modern adaptations. Probably for space / clarity of the story, I'm sure, but still...
quote:The fitting in the oven may not be such a huge problem -- I can't remember where I read this (maybe in notes in my edition of ACC?) -- but at that time, people would take their roasts to local bakeries for cooking. Since bread was baked in large, very hot ovens early in the day, these were available for people to roast their meat as the ovens slowly cooled down.
Originally posted by Lucrezia Spagliatoni Dayglo:
So poor Mrs Cratchit is presented with an enormous turkey which presumably she has to pluck and draw before cooking. She'll then have to fit it into her stove (something which many of us have faced on Christmas Day!)and roast the blighter. Presumably they all died from food poisoning
quote:I love the Muppets' version. I've always had visions of Miss Piggy ramming the turkey onto Scrooge's head, 'hiya!'
Originally posted by birdie
You know, I've always thought that. (Speaking as someone who is most familiar with the Muppets' version of the story). Were I Mrs Cratchit, and someone turned up with a huge, uncooked bird on my doorstep just before lunch on Christmas Day I strongly suspect my response would be along the lines of 'sod that, take us to the Ivy'.
quote:Yes, I seem to remember reading/hearing something like that too. Knowing Mrs Cartchit's luck there would have been no room in the oven due to late arrival of her turkey!
Originally posted by Lothiriel
The fitting in the oven may not be such a huge problem -- I can't remember where I read this (maybe in notes in my edition of ACC?) -- but at that time, people would take their roasts to local bakeries for cooking. Since bread was baked in large, very hot ovens early in the day, these were available for people to roast their meat as the ovens slowly cooled down.
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quote:Ghosts have always been a common belief - in biblical times and surely long before.
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:Not having lived at that period, I cannot know for sure, but I highly doubt it. I fail to see the necessary link, however, between believing in ghosts and believing "that people could forge spiritual chains by the actions of their lives."
Originally posted by Freddy:
I also wonder about Dickens' device of the spirits that visited Scrooge. Was this something commonly believed at the time? That is, that ghosts might speak to people, that they could show people their early lives, or that people could forge spiritual chains by the actions of their lives.
quote:In some versions it does end up being a goose. But in the original it is a turkey:
Originally posted by venbede:
What turkey? It's a goose, for goosdeness' sake.
quote:If it wasn't already the common Christmas practice, it certainly caught on.
``Do you know the Poulterer's, in the next street but one, at the corner?'' Scrooge inquired.
``I should hope I did,'' replied the lad.
``An intelligent boy!'' said Scrooge. ``A remarkable boy! Do you know whether they've sold the prize Turkey that was hanging up there? Not the little prize Turkey; the big one?''
``What, the one as big as me?'' returned the boy.
``What a delightful boy!'' said Scrooge. ``It's a pleasure to talk to him. Yes, my buck!''
``It's hanging there now,'' replied the boy.
quote:I've never had goose. I imagine it is like duck.
Master Peter, and the two ubiquitous young Cratchits went to fetch the goose, with which they soon returned in high procession.
Such a bustle ensued that you might have thought a goose the rarest of all birds; a feathered phenomenon, to which a black swan was a matter of course; and in truth it was something very like it in that house. Mrs Cratchit made the gravy (ready beforehand in a little saucepan) hissing hot; Master Peter mashed the potatoes with incredible vigour; Miss Belinda sweetened up the apple-sauce; Martha dusted the hot plates; Bob took Tiny Tim beside him in a tiny corner at the table; the two young Cratchits set chairs for everybody, not forgetting themselves, and mounting guard upon their posts, crammed spoons into their mouths, lest they should shriek for goose before their turn came to be helped.
quote:The poor in that day took their roastables to the baker for spell in the bread oven.
Originally posted by Moo:
As far as the problem of roasting the turkey is concerned, I thought that kind of cooking was still done over open fires.
Moo
quote:Turkey for Christmas was an instant hit the moment it hit Saint Henry's court. In the book the family has a miserable Christmas dinner of a very small goose, and someone comments how much they would rather have turkey for dinner.
If it wasn't already the common Christmas practice, it certainly caught on.
But the Cratchits did have a goose in Scrooge's vision with the Ghost of Christmas Present:
quote:Note three nights.
"You will be haunted," resumed the Ghost, "by Three Spirits."
Scrooge's countenance fell almost as low as the Ghost's had done.
"Is that the chance and hope you mentioned, Jacob?" he demanded, in a faltering voice.
"It is."
"I -- I think I'd rather not," said Scrooge.
"Without their visits," said the Ghost, "you cannot hope to shun the path I tread. Expect the first tomorrow, when the bell tolls one."
"Couldn't I take `em all at once, and have it over, Jacob?" hinted Scrooge.
"Expect the second on the next night at the same hour. The third upon the next night when the last stroke of twelve has ceased to vibrate. Look to see me no more; and look that, for your own sake, you remember what has passed between us!"
quote:Then immediately:
The Spirit dropped beneath it, so that the extinguisher covered its whole form; but though Scrooge pressed it down with all his force, he could not hide the light, which streamed from under it, in an unbroken flood upon the ground.
He was conscious of being exhausted, and overcome by an irresistible drowsiness; and, further, of being in his own bedroom. He gave the cap a parting squeeze, in which his hand relaxed; and had barely time to reel to bed, before he sank into a heavy sleep.
quote:As far as I can see, the same night as the evening he gave Bob Cratchit permission to have the next day off, not two or three days before. In fact, Scrooge doesn't even receive the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come back at his own house but when and where he is left by Christmas Present. I don't remember anyone mentioning this in my reading of commentaries. It seems like a strange gaffe. Or it must be that ghosts can squeeze three spectral nights into one earthly one.
Awaking in the middle of a prodigiously tough snore, and sitting up in bed to get his thoughts together, Scrooge had no occasion to be told that the bell was again upon the stroke of One. He felt that he was restored to consciousness in the right nick of time, for the especial purpose of holding a conference with the second messenger dispatched to him through Jacob Marley's intervention.
quote:I always thought it was a central "ah-hah" of the whole story.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I don't remember anyone mentioning this in my reading of commentaries. It seems like a strange gaffe. Or it must be that ghosts can squeeze three spectral nights into one earthly one.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82
I was under the impression that the visitations took place over three Christmases. The Ghost of Christmas Present doesn't bugger off until after a children's 12th night party.
quote:
I was under the impression that the visitations took place over three Christmases. The Ghost of Christmas Present doesn't bugger off until after a children's 12th night party.
quote:Which, being translated, means?
Originally posted by venbede:
Why can't people read the book? Il n'y a pas de hors-texte.
quote:Yes - I am always in bits over Mrs Blinder and the three orphaned childern of the debt collector and her "t'aint much to forgive 'em the rent" and how he notes that in as much as it was done for the least of these she would one day find it was indeed much. Dickens mostly likes doctors over clergy but he has good and bad of both and his concern for the poor and marginalised is sincere. I believe he once tried to write a children's Bible too.
Originally posted by venbede:
Why can't people read the book? Il n'y a pas de hors-texte.
Marley visits Scrooge on Christmas Eve and the Spirits visit him during one night. He awakes in time with the church bells ringing for Christmas Day to buy a goose (at Leadenhall Market presumably) to send to the Cratchits in time for Christmas dinner, which he has already viewed in advance in an alternative reality.
Dickens was fairly hostile to what is often called "organised religion", but there are a whole number of significant religious references throughout the book, which are likely to be overlooked in the light of the present secular view of Christmas. When he does quote scripture in his other works, it is often very moving (Mrs Gummidge of all people in David Copperfield)
quote:Yes: and in distress because they now wish to relieve the want that they see but have no means of doing so. A very powerful passage which is much to Dickens' credit both as a writer and as a man.
Originally posted by venbede:
What turkey? It's a goose, for goosdeness' sake.
The end of the introduction with Scrooge's vision of the moneylenders eternally tied to their money boxes is the most powerful justification of the doctrine of Hell that I know.
quote:Scrooge's activity on Christmas Day, after meeting the men to whom, the day before, he had refused a request for a gift to charity:
Originally posted by mousethief:
---
We have a 2-CD set purporting to be the Patrick Stewart one-man stage play. After Scrooge's "conversion" he portrays him walking into a church and singing a stanza of a hymn. I couldn't find that in the text. Is there an ur-text out of which it was left? Or a later text that it was added into? Our book has an inscription with the date 1913.
quote:Now there's a bit of scandal has never made it into the biographies.... One just hopes Nelly Ternan never got to hear about it.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
One could argue that Dickens was off-kilter in his own personal morality - viz Ellen Terry -.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
quote:That doesn't say he sang a stanza of a hymn. Did you read what I wrote?
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:Scrooge's activity on Christmas Day, after meeting the men to whom, the day before, he had refused a request for a gift to charity:
Originally posted by mousethief:
---
We have a 2-CD set purporting to be the Patrick Stewart one-man stage play. After Scrooge's "conversion" he portrays him walking into a church and singing a stanza of a hymn. I couldn't find that in the text. Is there an ur-text out of which it was left? Or a later text that it was added into? Our book has an inscription with the date 1913.
'He went to church, and walked along the streets, and watched the people hurrying to and fro and patted the children on the head...etc.'
quote:Well, yes, some have drawn connections between Kantianism and Christianity….sorry, we all make typos, but I couldn’t resist it.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
kant and hypocrisy
quote:[transcribing from the mp3...]
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
mousethief, when you say in this production Scrooge sang a stanza of a hymn, what were the details? For example: Was it an empty church, he goes in, sings a stanza, leaves? [etc]
quote:If it is morally loose to DO GOOD ALWAYS and be kind to one's inferiors, I'd say we could do with a hell of a lot more moral looseness in our churches today.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Dickens’s Christianity was both theologically and morally loose.
quote:Inferiors?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:If it is morally loose to DO GOOD ALWAYS and be kind to one's inferiors, I'd say we could do with a hell of a lot more moral looseness in our churches today.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Dickens’s Christianity was both theologically and morally loose.
quote:There is much to Zach82's observation. The spirit of Christmas is not primarily a religious one--and so neither are the 3 Spirits who visit Scrooge. The legend is that Dickens saved Christmas with his story and that is debatable. But if the prevailing attitude at the time was that Christmas was just a religious celebration and nothing more, then its strength and viability would be directly related to the strength and viability of religion. Dickens, however, separated it from formal religion and focused on what I would call the true point of Christmas--Love. Love of others (as shown by reformed Scrooge's charitable contributions); love of friends and colleagues (his care of Cratchitt and wee sicko Tim); and love of family (Fred and his wife). This is what saves the celebration of Christmas
Originally posted by Zach82:
To a certain extent, making the book about just Christmas is to miss the point. Dickens is looking at the spirit at the center of Christmas: generosity to others and gratitude for what one has in life. Dickens hardly mentions Jesus, for he seems to have found the value of Christmas in those virtues instead.
quote:Don't go self-righteous on me. You know what I mean.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:Inferiors?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:If it is morally loose to DO GOOD ALWAYS and be kind to one's inferiors, I'd say we could do with a hell of a lot more moral looseness in our churches today.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Dickens’s Christianity was both theologically and morally loose.
quote:There is a scene when Scrooge thinks the Ghost of Christmas Present must support those pious people campaigning to close bakeries on Christmas Day, and the Ghost sternly insists they have nothing to do with him, for it would deprive poor people of a hot Christmas dinner.
Even today, around this time, it is always the fashion to start "keep Christ in Christmas" campaigns and insist that everybody get religious--but that has always seemed to me to miss the point.
quote:Or, as per the quoted Christmas Carol - 'God rest ye merry, Gentlemen' - Remember Christ our Saviour was born on Christmas Day.
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:There is much to Zach82's observation. The spirit of Christmas is not primarily a religious one--and so neither are the 3 Spirits who visit Scrooge. The legend is that Dickens saved Christmas with his story and that is debatable. But if the prevailing attitude at the time was that Christmas was just a religious celebration and nothing more, then its strength and viability would be directly related to the strength and viability of religion. Dickens, however, separated it from formal religion and focused on what I would call the true point of Christmas--Love. Love of others (as shown by reformed Scrooge's charitable contributions); love of friends and colleagues (his care of Cratchitt and wee sicko Tim); and love of family (Fred and his wife). This is what saves the celebration of Christmas
Originally posted by Zach82:
To a certain extent, making the book about just Christmas is to miss the point. Dickens is looking at the spirit at the center of Christmas: generosity to others and gratitude for what one has in life. Dickens hardly mentions Jesus, for he seems to have found the value of Christmas in those virtues instead.
In fact, one of my favorite bits is Scrooge surprising his nephew by simply coming to be with him. Scrooge accidentally startles Fred's wife and the story adds that he had forgotten she was sitting in the corner and, if he had remembered, would never have done it on any account. He shows love to her as well even to the part of regretting that he has startled her.
Even today, around this time, it is always the fashion to start "keep Christ in Christmas" campaigns and insist that everybody get religious--but that has always seemed to me to miss the point. The point is Love. Rather than religious division, we need to keep Love in Christmas and, in so doing, we accomplish God's desire for what is God but Love? As Kris Kringle states in Miracle on 34th Street, Christmas isn't a day--it's a frame of mind. That is what Scrooge discovers and what, God willing, we all will discover.
quote:There is a scene when Scrooge thinks the Ghost of Christmas Present must support those pious people campaigning to close bakeries on Christmas Day, and the Ghost sternly insists they have nothing to do with him, for it would deprive poor people of a hot Christmas dinner.
Even today, around this time, it is always the fashion to start "keep Christ in Christmas" campaigns and insist that everybody get religious--but that has always seemed to me to miss the point.
quote:If querying the designation of other human beings as 'inferiors' constitutes 'self-righteousness', then i'd say we could do with a hell of a lot more self-righteousness.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Don't go self-righteous on me. You know what I mean.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:Inferiors?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:If it is morally loose to DO GOOD ALWAYS and be kind to one's inferiors, I'd say we could do with a hell of a lot more moral looseness in our churches today.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Dickens’s Christianity was both theologically and morally loose.
quote:Cute deflection from the gross inadequacies of your stated positions. Okay since you like being self-righteous and pretending you don't understand plain English, I will explain it in small words. I mean people who make a lot less than you, or who are on public assistance --sorry, help--, or are of a lower social class. Get it? Get it? Done being self righteous now? Care to defend your outrageous claim that his morals are loose?
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:If querying the designation of other human beings as 'inferiors' constitutes 'self-righteousness', then i'd say we could do with a hell of a lot more self-righteousness.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Don't go self-righteous on me. You know what I mean.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:Inferiors?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:If it is morally loose to DO GOOD ALWAYS and be kind to one's inferiors, I'd say we could do with a hell of a lot more moral looseness in our churches today.
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Dickens’s Christianity was both theologically and morally loose.
quote:Indeed! I love it, too, and was dismayed when the DVD came out, sans this sweet little bit of fluff and pathos. Michael Cain's verse three gets me every time
Originally posted by Gill H:
The Muppet version is wonderful - captures the spirit (ha!) perfectly.
)
quote:On the contrary, that "sentimental mulch" is what Jesus came to teach us. Celebrating Jesus without love is what would be a hollow and pointless celebration. But acting with love, even by those who have never heard of Jesus, is still touched by the hand and spirit of God. Love is the keystone.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Or, as per the quoted Christmas Carol - 'God rest ye merry, Gentlemen' - Remember Christ our Saviour was born on Christmas Day.
That's what Christmas is about, not some Christmas movies 'Kris-Kringle-love-is-what-Xmas-is-all-about' sentimental mulch.
I speak as one whose front room is made to look like a grotto at Christmas, including a 7' tree with 200 lights on it - but if it weren't for Jesus it would be a very empty celebration indeed; even with the charitable work we do.
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Why can't people read the book? Il n'y a pas de hors-texte.
quote:How refreshing. I'm glad to see that my previously developing opinion of you as an ungracious jerk was perhaps premature.
Whoops. [snip] I wasn't reading the text. Apologies.
quote:I quite seriously can't think of anyone these days whose "plain English" would run to referring to such pople as "inferiors", but it does contribute a Victorian ambience for talking about Dickens - countless people would not have hesitated to use the term in his day.
Originally posted by mousethief:
plain English, I will explain it in small words. I mean people who make a lot less than you, or who are on public assistance --sorry, help--, or are of a lower social class.
quote:Can't help it - it's my left-wing moral vanity.
Done being self righteous now?
quote:Mea culpa.
Care to defend your outrageous claim that his morals are loose?
