Ship of Fools: Learning From Bad Preaching

Thread: Learning From Bad Preaching Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=024182

Posted by Miss Madrigal (# 15528) on :

As tonight's sermon broached the 25 minute mark with the third strained and contextually irrelevant modern parable, I realised that the years I had learned more from this terrible preacher down the years than their more coherent, logical, eloquent and downright comprehensible colleagues. While I could listen to their sermons and comprehend them there and then, this persons ramblings would confuse and annoy me enough to research things on my own, whether to find out where they had lifted their terrible examples from, to find arguments to refute the conclusions that I couldn't understand how I they had formed them from the passages being preached on (because their oratorical thread was so tangled), or because they had wound me up by verbal ineptitude (I am sure that they didn't mean to be anti-semitic tonight, but an ungenerous listener could have formed that impression).

Tonight I have no idea what they were trying to say about Christ the King, I lost track within 3 minutes, but as a result I will spend time this week researching anti-semitism within Christian thought and the question of whether Christ was himself a Christian. Neither was in the text of their sermon, indeed they might be surprised that it would have raised these questions, but I don't walk away from the better sermons looking wider than what they actually said.

Does this accord with anyone else's experience?

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

Not me.

--Tom Clune

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

It obviously has taught you patience. More than I would have.

Posted by Dogwalker (# 14135) on :

Oh yes. I used the opportunity to learn the Prayer Book -- my first readings of Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, the Articles of Religion, the Ordination Services and everything else were during rambling, pointless and confusing sermons twenty-five or so years ago.

He once said "in conclusion" five times in the same sermon.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Catch up on the notice sheet and / or learn the anthem (morning service only - it would be too late to learn the anthem in the sermon for the evening service!)

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

I make a distinction, a sermon that gets me thinking no matter how badly strung together, heretical or just plain annoying is not bad.

A sermon where the preacher is worrying about something that is not a problem when you actually read the Biblical text is.

In other words either read the Bible passage properly or preach on something else entirely, don't pretend to have read it and then preach on your own imaginings* of what it said.

On this score, with about forty years of sermons already I have had one bad sermon. I suppose I learnt what a bad sermon was like from it.

Jengie

*Note this does not mean I do not like imaginative interpretations on the whole I largely enjoy them but I do mind people spending ten minutes of sermon worrying about a problem in the text that does not exist if the text was actually read.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Ours (English service) habitually introduce every Bible passage, no matter how gripping, with a desperately boring but "relevant" anecdote or statistic from football. Or politics. Or TV shows. Or ....

The rest of the sermon then attempts to justify the strained and stupid analogy while I try to force myself to pay attention without the steam boiling out of ears.

At which point my son usually comes up with a thoughtful if totally unrelated theological question based on one of the readings, which he has been perusing while ignoring the sermon. I seize on this gratefully and we retire to the narthex to discuss it, leaving our pewmates to assume a desperate call of nature.

Which doesn't end until the beginning of the prayers.

At least my SON is learning something (I hope).

[ 25. November 2012, 22:00: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by mrs whibley (# 4798) on :

Miss Madrigal

Yes - I find that sometimes, too. I particularly remember a badly-executed diatribe about Creationism (I won't deign to describe it as a sermon) which caused me to go away and thoroughly get to grips with the subject.

On other occasions, however, sermons are just bad! I left a church where the minister was prone to extended rambles of the nested three-point variety (i.e. 3 main points, each of which contained 3 points, at least the first couple of which would also have 3 points). These actually contained too much subject matter so that my poor brain would explode and fail to take anything at all away - even though there was usually some good stuff in there.

And sometimes long sermons are just an extended ramble containing apparently nothing at all. It is helpful to have a bible handy at such times.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I lose interest after the first two or three minutes. Fortunately I'm somewhere at the moment where that's about as long as it lasts.

Thank God.

I understand there are place where sermons go on for the better part of an hour. I strongly suspect that if I've led a wicked life I'll end up in a personal Hell where exactly that happens.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

If the topic interests me I use it as an exercise in working out a better interpretation and application.
Otherwise I just find some other diversion.

This doesn't happen much for me, as mostly I worship in a house church where we are encouraged to participate and share what the topic or bible story means in our own lives.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Some years ago I got mildly told off when editing the church magazine for labelling an empty space "sermon scribbling space".

It was what I had every intention of using it for.

It would have been better if I hadn't also placed an announcement that week asking if anyone else "felt led" to do the washing up after the after church coffee*.

*Does anyone else find an irresistible urge to have an after after church coffee coffee to take away the taste of the after church coffee?

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

There is more to worship than a bad sermon. There is the liturgy, the readings, the hymns, the prayers, the Eucharist and then the benediction. If you are struggling with a poor preacher, I would suggest you concentrate on one of the readings or one of the hymns and develop your own meditation on it.

But has it ever been brought to your parish council that the minister may benefit from a refresher course on homiletics? Frankly, preachers can get stale and they do not stay up with the times. I would say it should be a requirement that preachers take a refresher course at least every four years--if not more often.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

Having gone through a string of interim pastors, my trouble is that each one has a totally different approach. Some are obsessed with Biblical minutiae, some fancy themselves experts in New Testament Greek, others are great storytellers, some historians [present one], and some are into doctrine.

If it's a good preacher of any style, I've got maybe ten minutes of attending in me. Whether a sermon is going to be good or bad, many people can make it that long. Beyond ten minutes, I start thinking of how I could have helped him/her to summarize, something I am frequently called upon to do in my job.

Like others, I have spent much time with they hymnal, liturgical materials, catechism, and Augsburg Confession.

I'd have a hard time saying I have heard too many "bad sermons." That said, I know beating a dead horse when I see/hear it, and I've experienced many sermons that should have been put out of their misery much earlier.

Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :

in the bad (bad, bad) old days I'd use the time to imagine a good sermon on the text(s). - My inner puritan preaching to myself.
And put bookmarks in the hymn book, psalter etc. think of shopping list etc etc.
Tangent - I'll never forget the way my dear old Dad announced the hymn after a really poor sermon - "Sleepers awake! - hymn no ....."

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
some fancy themselves experts in New Testament Greek

Back when I was a charismatic, I remember that lots of preachers of that kidney were very fond of the use of the term "dunamos" in Greek for the power of the Holy Spirit. They tended to rather over-extrapolate from the fact that it's also the root of the term "dynamite".

[ 26. November 2012, 08:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Some years ago I got mildly told off when editing the church magazine for labelling an empty space "sermon scribbling space".

Oh thou unschooled in the wise ways of hypocrisy. Call it "sermon notes" and we all know what that means.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I have my pet hates when it comes to listening to a preacher; like hearing eight different stories that are unconnected. It's like filling dead air time on a radio. And then there's the issue of length. It takes a very skilled orator to talk for anything over ten minutes without becoming mind-numblingly dull.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Miss Madrigal:
Tonight I have no idea what they were trying to say about Christ the King...I will spend time this week researching ... whether Christ was himself a Christian.

Does this accord with anyone else's experience?

Yes.

In my youth I learned all four or five verses of some hymns by memorizing them during boring sermons.

I have a good friend whose sermons, sigh, within 3 minutes you no longer have any clue what the topic is, other than free form rambling; on the way out people look at each other puzzled and ask "what was the sermon about?" He is quite proud of his sermons -- or rather, proud of bits of them, I think he has no interest in how -- or whether -- the bits fit together into a coherent whole. (Good thing I live far away and hear him sermonize rarely.)

A couple decades ago I thought I really should try harder, so I tried to stay focused, and at coffee I asked people what they thought of the sermon, or what point was made that resonated with them or etc. Every person I approached said "I don't listen to sermons."

Then for a decade I used the sermon as a jumping off place to notice what I disagreed with and investigate what is probably right, and why. But even that has become repetitious.

I'm back to reading the hymnal. Or mostly staying home Sunday mornings.

Posted by The Riv (# 3553) on :

Please help me understand just one thing by filling in this blank:

A "homily" should last no longer than ______ minutes.

If that blank seems longer than necessary, it's only because the majority of homilies it seems I've heard require that much numerical space.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

I woke up in the middle of yesterday's sermon when the rector made a reference to a candidate (infant) for baptism's "spouses."

Mrs. Malaprop seems to be a role model for our current rector.

Posted by claret10 (# 16341) on :

I would totally agree with you, although i'm not sure at this second what I learnt from yesterdays bad sermon, other than i've yet to hear the guy preach a good one.

I have an unfortunate ability of being totally turned off by a sermon to the extent of not listening or metaphorically writing shopping list in my head. (Although more likely like Dogwalker I would be noticing and counting annoying use of repetative language, although my favourite is umms and errs [Biased]

) However my mind still leaps on to important snippets, especially if I strongly agree or disagree with them.

I often debate why for me, it was a bad sermon and what I can learn from it, or how I would do it differently. That however leads me to think more about the content and message, than a good sermon would.

It may be the fact that I have an interest in Psychology and am currently study for my masters, however I often disect anything that I find bad, to work out if it is something about me, or what it is that makes it bad.However yesterday I was just hoping he hadn't preached in the same way at the first service. We are a smallish church, but including me (but not those who had to be there) there, were only 10 people in the congregation and I was the only one below the age of 70. Maybe i'm not the only one who doesn't like that person's preaching (luckily he only visits once or twice a year.)

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

It saddens me beyond measure to read of so many rebelling against bad preaching.

I sympathise with them.

So whose fault is it? The preachers? Yes. And the days when theological training institutions made homiletics a core subject seem to have long gone. The sermon is reduced to the state of a 'homily' and a homily is defined as " some random thoughts on the gospel lectionary for today".

The congregations also. They put up with nonsense without a mumur. And they encourage one-liners, especially if they are accompanied by power-point presentations and any other visuals designed to accomodate an attention span of minimal proportions.

Call me a cynic if you will. But I believe in preaching and the sermon.

Posted by claret10 (# 16341) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I woke up in the middle of yesterday's sermon when the rector made a reference to a candidate (infant) for baptism's "spouses."

Mrs. Malaprop seems to be a role model for our current rector.

Our best yesterday (we're currently worshiping away from our building as it's being refurbished) the trainee brought the wrong service sheets, then did the service in the wrong order.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Catch up on the notice sheet

I became a bit self conscious about doing that after the assistant rector made an in-service joke at announcement time about how some of us had already had a chance to review the announcements during the Rector's sermon.

I can think of a few instances where, due to a special event going on at the church or due to the preacher not wanting to touch on a tough gospel, I felt that the gospel had been short changed. In those instances, I sought out other sermons to see if anyone else was brave enough to tackle the gospel. So I guess I can sort of sympathize with the OP.

Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:

So whose fault is it? The preachers? Yes. And the days when theological training institutions made homiletics a core subject seem to have long gone. The sermon is reduced to the state of a 'homily' and a homily is defined as " some random thoughts on the gospel lectionary for today".

This is not what I am experiencing as an ordinand in training. Preaching is a compulsory module and it features consistently in placement requirements. Certainly those training in this college spend a lot of time thinking about the theology and practice of preaching and practising the art too.

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

Intrested to know Jenn what text books you use and what other resources are part of the module

Posted by Dal Segno (# 14673) on :

For a while, I attended a church where I disagreed with the preacher's theology. I learnt an awful lot from my reaction to his sermons and subsequently re-visiting the Bible passages to work out *why* I disagreed.

At present, I usually listen to the, usually good sermons, at my current church. But I sometimes drift off and find myself planning the next week's teaching, as the sermon seems to be the one time in the week when I seem to get any time to myself.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.
This is not what I am experiencing as an ordinand in training. Preaching is a compulsory module and it features consistently in placement requirements. Certainly those training in this college spend a lot of time thinking about the theology and practice of preaching and practising the art too.

I sometimes suspect the problem is over-education! Too much knowledge.....must get it out!!!

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant non-liturgical church. Communion was only held a few times a year. So the sermon was the central point of the service. (Not more important than, say, prayer; but the center of the way the service was designed. Also sometimes known as a "hymn sandwich"--hymns 'fore and aft.)

We were a Bible-teaching church--e.g., everyone was supposed to learn it, think and pray through it, and memorize what they could. Since the scriptures, in the original languages, were held to be straight from God, it was very important to understand what the original meant.

So the sermons were more focused on that than on anecdotes about practical living and practical faith. The pastor was from a well-known, very conservative seminary. He also may have been a bad match for that congregation.

His sermons tended to be sessions of stepping through a passage of scripture, word by word, delving into the original languages. Which was fine--that's how that kind of church worked. Many people dug into the original on their own, even taking seminary classes. But the sermons were sometimes an hour long--and occasionally longer. Seriously. This did not endear him to the congregation--especially when there was a pot roast in the oven at home!

I think he and everyone else concerned would've been happier if he'd either a) been able to laugh at himself a bit and to tailor his sermons to the congregation; or b) been a seminary teacher. There were good things about him, but the relationship between him and the congregation became very strained over the years. (I think there was some kind of power struggle, too, but I never knew the details.)

The basic schedule of the church was:

--Sunday school for all ages.

--Church (sometimes a separate junior church, or kids in the main service could always read their Sunday school papers and work the puzzles; very young kids were usually in the nursery).

--Four times a year, there was a potluck and quarterly business meeting after the service.

--Sunday night Bible study (and, on business meeting days, some people would just hang around until Bible study). When we had enough teens for a youth group, we met at the same time as the Bible study.

--Wednesday night prayer meeting.

--Plus various group prayer/activity meetings and sessions of church boards.

If people weren't into the sermon, or whatever else was going on, they read their Bibles or hymnals, took notes, etc.

As an adult, I've usually gone to liturgical churches--and learned to appreciate sermons that are only 15-20 min. long!

[Cool]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I'm afraid, try as they might, some clergy people do not have a knack for sermon making. They do their best, try different modes yet the homily comes out like dish water, lukewarm and murky. Which is a pity because they are often judged on it by the congregation to the exclusion of other notable strengths. And good preachers sometimes get a bye on poor pastoral skills or arrogance because people are enthralled by their sermons.

A young woman who did her discernment at our church had great energy, great kindness, great vision in ministry, and couldn't give (read) a sermon that wasn't like day-old toast. I think that she is now a vicar on assignment from the diocese. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that her congregation loves her. Especially if she keeps her homilies under ten minutes. [Snigger]

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Miss Madrigal:
As tonight's sermon broached the 25 minute mark with the third strained and contextually irrelevant modern parable ...

I'm sure lots of shipmates have read Gilead - didn't someone slip into John Ames collection box a guide to better sermon writing? Perhaps too cruel to do to a real person.

From a practical point of view, as a university lecturer I learned long ago that few people can remain focussed on what you are saying - even with the assistance of PowerPoint - for more than about 15 minutes. A bit of interaction with the congregation/audience or change of pace works wonders. I'd sometimes stop and read a poem in the middle of a Computer Science lecture. Well it woke some of them up. Since you probably can't influence your minister to do that, it's probably worth have a short time out in the middle to focus your mind on something different (as several posters obviously do).

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
few people can remain focussed on what you are saying - even with the assistance of PowerPoint -

Isn't PowerPoint designed to ensure that you'll lose your audience?

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

I really honestly don't hear bad sermons very often. Sometimes at a weekday Mass, where they're supposed to be only 3-5 minutes (since people are on their lunch breaks), I've heard rather rambling and incoherent sermons. One preacher I've heard work into his sermons on multiple occasions, for no apparent reason, his friendship with Ann B. Davis (Alice on the Brady Bunch). Another preacher once gave a sermon about technology and how he refused to turn off his iPhone during a service. He pointed out in particular how, despite there being a lectionary laid out in front of him, he had read the Gospel passage from his iPhone. I never figured out what that one was about - or how it tied in with the lessons.

I suppose there's a difference between that kind of bad sermon and one that's heretical or just really shallow. I remember years ago, when I was in college, attending the beautiful liturgy at a Congregational church, only to be very disappointed in a bland sermon that was just about how love is rather nice. I've also heard my share of either heretical statements or inaccurate historical biases from preachers, which bothers me because many listeners will give them the benefit of the doubt or just trust what they say. There are too many preachers of a certain age who take every chance they can to accuse traditional liturgies of all kinds of oppression - such as one preacher who claimed the reason oriented churches have an altar at one end of the church is to keep holy things away from the people. [Mad]

He just stated it like it was a fact!

ETA: I love the OP's attitude, though - choosing to take the opportunity to dig and learn. One aspect that didn't get highlighted from this, which I wish to highlight, is that it shows a certain ecclesiology where one stays committed to their church rather than running around trying to find one where the preaching always fits their taste. Clearly something else is important, whether it's the community, the liturgy, or even just the location of a church.

[ 27. November 2012, 20:15: Message edited by: churchgeek ]

Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :

I've always heard that ministers are usually either good preachers or good pastors. Pastor types are people oriented and would rather spend time with parishioners, whereas preacher types like me would rather stay in the office and work toward Sunday.

When I have the opportunity to hear preaching I have to work hard to resist critiquing delivery so I can hear what is being said. I usually can find a few takeaway notes helpful for my own formation.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

Circuit Rider, that makes me feel extremely lucky that the the Minister where I currently worship is very good at both.

Not being as patent as the OP, the main thing I learn from a really bad sermon is to avid that preacher [Two face]

Huia

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

That would be --patient -I'm not copyrighted either [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

While I am Lutheran, three years of my ministry was in a non denominational setting. I came to appreciate the responses of the congregation. I would look for heads nodding. I really appreciated it when I heard an "Amen" or "Preach it, brother." I knew I was not reaching people if I heard someone say, "Help him, Jesus." Or them shaking their heads. Fortunately, those situations were rare.

I think sometimes in liturgical churches people don't know how to respond to a pastor's sermon. They will sit there and not give any indication as to how the sermon is coming across. Maybe most congregations are not as open as where I was at, but I think someone on the council should speak with a pastor if the sermons are consistently dull.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0