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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why is everyone so busy?
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
Our church has recently seen the retirement of two of our cleaning volunteers who are in their eighties. The problem is there is no one younger willing to take on the job. My daughter’s church youth club, which is a great success and growing each week, has recently shifted from weekly to fortnightly meetings because there are not enough volunteers to run it weekly. My sons' Boys' Brigade branch is not able to run its annual fund raiser this year because not enough parents can offer one Saturday morning to run a coffee morning.
There’s a theme here. Everyone is “too busy” to put themselves forward for these jobs. What are we all doing with our time that we weren’t doing before? Is this real, or is it a perception that our private time is more important to us than community time? Has life really become more demanding in the last few years? Is this all just coincidence and I’ve just been unlucky? Have shipmates experienced similar declining participation?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
What are we all doing with our time that we weren’t doing before? Is this real, or is it a perception that our private time is more important to us than community time? Has life really become more demanding in the last few years? Is this all just coincidence and I’ve just been unlucky? Have shipmates experienced similar declining participation?
Yes I've noticed it too - and it seems common across all volutary groups. A few reasons perhaps ..
- more time on line (like here!)
- too many rules when it comes to children and activities
- people move from interest to interest on about a 3 year cycle so have no time to learn the ropes and leading before moving (people also move churches and not just because they're moving towns. This parallels employment and the disappearance of jobs for life (unless you are the Saxe-Coburg-Windsor-Mountbattens
- lots of opportunities to shop and more leisure activities
- we expect things to be provided
- longer working hours/travelling/more work at home
- get involved only when our children are in "it" (whatever "it" is), then bail out when they leave. You won't see many memorials to faithful servants of 30 + years standing in the future
There may be more
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Another might be thatactivities for children/youth are much more demanding of their time. Hockey leagues that run kids' games at 6 AM or all weekend, plus road trips up to five hours drive away are the most noticeable around here. This may be a symptom of the parents' need to be seen as providing "opportunity" for their kids, but it usually ends up with parents whinging about the time and money they spend, while the kid plays video games in the car and is otherwise disconnected from having a life.
Rant over.
But the point is that we create time-filling, money-spending activities that "we" want to do, instead of sharing in a community. Meanwhile the parents hold down two or more jobs to pay for all this.
And everyone is actually more or less unhappy and stessed in ways that would be incomprehensible to the people of, say, fifty years ago or more.
Add in suburbia, where you don't (or rarely do) know more than a very few neighbours, while your friends are ten km. away or farther, and your family net isn't available to help.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
I think the problem goes beyond 'too busy (or don't want) to help out' and it includes 'too busy (or don't want) to become involved in stuff even if it is fun'. I think choirs, am-dram groups, photographic clubs, art/music appreciation groups etc all find it harder to get new members. It seems to stem from greater individualism and a disinclination to get involved in group activities, whether it is seen as work or play.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
Posts: 9123 | From: Near where I was before. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Well, here's why I'm so busy:
On weekdays I get home from work about 6:30pm. Change, wash, cook and eat, by which time it's about 9pm. An hour or so of TV then bed.
Some evenings I'll be at the football or cricket all evening until gone 10pm.
One evening a week we have to really rush the eating part in order to get to our house group.
Saturday: a precious lie-in usually followed by sport.
Sunday: church and shopping last until about 1pm, after which my wife and I get our one chance all week to spend some decent quality time together doing something other than cooking or eating.
Where in all that would I find the time to go and help with cleaning a church floor, other than the Saturday lie-in (which is about the only think keeping me from being an exhausted wreck for the rest of the week)?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
They had a professional time management expert speak to the staff at my old church. She challenged the staff to stop using the word "busy" altogether, because she saw it as an excuse to avoid actual conversation and commitment. "I've been really busy" has become the new standard response to "How are you doing," to replace "I'm fine." I think most of the staff thought it was a little silly, but it might be worth thinking about.
I had lunch with an older gentleman yesterday, who told me that one of his philosophies in life is that you have to take an active part in your family, in your business, in your community, and in your church. It isn't something you hear lots of people saying today. But he had a realistic outlook on what that means. He was president of his Rotary club for a while, and that took away from his time to be active at work, but he said that you just have to manage.
As for youth directors, I don't know what the answer is. I was a kid in the era of the personality cult youth leader. The church would hire a youth leader with a big personality, and the kids got attached to that personality. When that leader burnt out or moved on, half of the youth group left. By the time I was an adult working with kids, they were on to the volunteer model, where we were supposed to seek out people with "a heart for Children." That works until you can't get volunteers to staff basic meetings, and you realize that you need to pay someone again. There may be a middle ground, but it seems to go back and forth.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Everyone is “too busy” to put themselves forward for these jobs.
I think your use of quotation marks is appropriate - because I think "I'm too busy" is often a euphemism for "I don't want to do that."
Nen - who loves her job and volunteers a lot of time there because it wouldn't get done properly otherwise.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Everyone is “too busy” to put themselves forward for these jobs.
I think your use of quotation marks is appropriate - because I think "I'm too busy" is often a euphemism for "I don't want to do that."
I agree - we can always find time for the things we really want to do. Motivation is all.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I think people are just involved in more things, thus have less time to devote to any one of them. at least that is the case for me. I used to be involved in running a scout troop, taking my own karate lessons, driving kids to dance/soccer/hockey/swimming lessons and games, maintain the house and yard, deal with pets, sing in church choir (including rehearsals).. all while working full time. the scouts is the one area where I choose to volunteer my time (not just when my kids were in it--I volunteered since long before kids, and continue even though my own kids are now also "leaders" in the organization).
We have had to cut back on the frequency of our scout meetings, because kids are also all booked in other activities. and with a few exceptions, we also have the problem of former scouts who could be leaders not wanting to do it until their kids are in it.. and only working with whatever age group they have kids in (we are an ethnic scout group, so our leadership is pulled from a fairly small pool of people).
so I've been on both ends of this.. the person who has to say I'm too busy to add another volunteer activity to my list, as well as the one frustrated in finding others who are willing to volunteer. I know that there are legitimate concerns/issues on both sides.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
He was president of his Rotary club for a while, and that took away from his time to be active at work, but he said that you just have to manage.
How many people have the ability to just take time away from work though?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
He's a real estate agent, so personal sales skills and networking are actually part of the job. He may have sold fewer houses that year, but the contacts pay off. I have heard of law firms that expect their young attorneys to be on nonprofit boards for the same reason.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
Speaking from the US and as a mom: there is a lot of societal pressure on parents, moms especially I think, to Spend Time With Their Children these days. (Because otherwise, obviously, you don't love your child and they'll drop out of school to become a criminal and it will be all your fault.) Time studies have found that even though more mothers are working longer hours outside the home, we still spend more time with our children than mothers did in the 1950s and 60s, before women's lib.
Anecdotally, children's activities and schools demand a lot more parental involvement than they used to. My kid isn't old enough to be in school yet but I hear that parents are expected to be involved with their kids' homework on a nightly basis. Also with things like birthday parties, sports, art classes and stuff like that, parents are sometimes expected to stay there with the child instead of dropping them off and coming back at the end.
Maybe you can convince some of your families that cleaning the church would be a good way to spend Quality Time together, and look good on the college applications...
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I can't see it getting better soon. As the retirement age is being slowly ramped up to 67 the number of available volunteers is going to go down.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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brackenrigg
Shipmate
# 9408
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Posted
Whilst the kids were growing up, I didn't drive so never left the village. All activities were confined locally.
Once we start driving, we get involved in activities in a 20 mile radius so there is a limit to what we can get involved in.
I am sure when people retire, they start getting involved in more to fill their time (when the grandkids allow)
Posts: 196 | From: s yorks | Registered: Apr 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Question: How many people complaining about people being "too busy" to help out are retired or do not work?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Our church has recently seen the retirement of two of our cleaning volunteers who are in their eighties. The problem is there is no one younger willing to take on the job. My daughter’s church youth club, which is a great success and growing each week, has recently shifted from weekly to fortnightly meetings because there are not enough volunteers to run it weekly. My sons' Boys' Brigade branch is not able to run its annual fund raiser this year because not enough parents can offer one Saturday morning to run a coffee morning.
There’s a theme here. Everyone is “too busy” to put themselves forward for these jobs. What are we all doing with our time that we weren’t doing before? Is this real, or is it a perception that our private time is more important to us than community time? Has life really become more demanding in the last few years? Is this all just coincidence and I’ve just been unlucky? Have shipmates experienced similar declining participation?
The uncomfortable truth is this: when people say they are "busy" without specifying what with, it's really just their way of trying to avoid causing offence by saying straight out that the church is lame and they've found a better offer. My opinion is that people are generally not a significant amount busier than they were before, it's just that increased mobility and connectivity have opened up more options than ever before.
Granted, I do think the smartphone might have a little bit to do with it for some, like those who will read a work email outside of work hours. But the thing I've also noticed is that people won't read an email if they are engaged in something that's significant to them.
There could be lots of factors involved, just a few suggestions here...
- It could be that some of the coordinating leaders have not properly honoured those who serve in volunteer roles, and they've burned out people one by one until they've reached the bottom of the barrel.
- It could be that there's a lack of direction or lack of fruit, and people aren't seeing something worth the investment of their time.
- It could be that people have been given sound advice to take care of their mental health by putting their time into activities that are energising, and that the church activities are draining them so they got the flick.
- It could be that the local culture is changing but those in the key leadership positions are spending too much time in their holy huddles to notice what's going on outside the walls of the church.
- It could be simply that the church was lame all along but at least it was a social hub to some degree.
- It could be that everybody has been so busy trying to run too many programs that they've missed some critical pastoral needs.
- It could be that people have been offended by an insensitive leader interpreting a one-off sacrifice of time as a regular commitment.
- It could be that your church is attempting to run more programs than they can handle.
- It could be simply that the people at the other options (e.g. the school sport program) are simply doing a better job of being a welcoming community than the church.
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
As for youth directors, I don't know what the answer is. I was a kid in the era of the personality cult youth leader. The church would hire a youth leader with a big personality, and the kids got attached to that personality. When that leader burnt out or moved on, half of the youth group left. By the time I was an adult working with kids, they were on to the volunteer model, where we were supposed to seek out people with "a heart for Children." That works until you can't get volunteers to staff basic meetings, and you realize that you need to pay someone again. There may be a middle ground, but it seems to go back and forth.
The model that has been quite sustainable for the last 15 years at my current church is one where the [paid] youth pastor's primary role is not to be cool; but to honour, support, train and mentor the youth leaders as they do the bulk of the work on the ground. The nature of our Friday evening youth community as a worshipping community means that preaching is also a major requirement, but the pied piper personality cult bit is not an option.
This approach works if you have the right person in the youth pastor's chair, but it needs a bit commitment from the church's hierarchy to stick with it long enough for seeds to turn into fruit. The best sign that it's working well is that the future leadership is mostly grown from within, consisting of people who are there because they want to be there rather than because they were the next person on the list for arm-twising.
I write all this not as somebody trying to justify non-involvement but as a youth leader of nearly eight years now, a commitment I choose to place as a high priority the sometimes demands I turn down other options. I would say my life is busy, but not to the point that there's no space left. I'm also aware that the balance of things as they are currently will not last forever, therefore I treat every commitment as a fixed-term deal that I consider carefully before renewing it.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I think your use of quotation marks is appropriate - because I think "I'm too busy" is often a euphemism for "I don't want to do that."
With good reason. When i was asked to go on a rota for cleaning the church loos, having already done 30-40 hours per week church voluntary work, I am entitled to not want to do it.
Would gladly give money to pay someone else to do it - my time is worth £30-50 an hour.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
I am an ICT manager (my paid job), a trade union steward, branch officer and lay tutor, a co-carer for my elderly mum, technical steward at church and sometime greeter-on-the-doors. I'm also currently mentoring someone from a neighbouring local authority and chairing our disabled employees group at work.
Clean the church? I'd like someone to clean my house, please!
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]
Would gladly give money to pay someone else to do it - my time is worth £30-50 an hour.
Well, yes, of course everyone says let's get professionals in to do the cleaning; we'll pay. Problem is that if we could pay the fuel bill and the maintenance on the rest of the church and the full parish share and have some left over for mission work that would be a fine idea. But as it is, where's the money going to get diverted from?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Problem is that if we could pay the fuel bill and the maintenance on the rest of the church and the full parish share and have some left over for mission work that would be a fine idea. But as it is, where's the money going to get diverted from?
Not in our Church, we don't need to 'divert' the money, we already pay our cleaners and caretakers.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
We've paid cleaners in the past...but our church is very good at paying other people to do things with money it hasn't really got, and I'm glad we stopped.
Last Sat I cleaned (I volunteer once a month) in a team of 3 white PhDs and a fit, retired Carribean guy who is much, much more typical of the church as a whole. Working together builds community - we know each other much better - and I'm glad we do it, despite the the work / childcare hassle it causes occasionally. Same goes for volunteering to take Sunday School, which is the main (OK, only) reason my wife and I manage bible study together, with the added bonus of sh*tting ourselves about not coming up with something really sh*t, at the same time. It's quite motivating.
Our church spends too much (nearly all) of its money on itself already. Since we can't fly to Africa to give out famine relief, drive to North Wales to make bowls of soup for flood victims, or print bibles for distribution in China, my vote is that we do our own cleaning and painting and give the money (to CAFOD / CA, Salvation Army, Bible Society) instead. It's what that portable means of exchange is for.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
My church has that problem too... Made even harder because many of our folk are farmers.
Two issues... Milking the cows, and driving 45 mins or more to us, their nearest church. (And fuel costs too I assume)
I guess sheep have needs too, but I don't hear about them.
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I think there are people who might participate, but the times scheduled are inappropriate for them. For example, the church I attend has a "Sermon Shapers" group that discusses the most recent sermon and the ideas for the next one. It is scheduled, as I recall, late on a weekday morning, a time when many of us are at work.
By the way, if you rely on random volunteers to clean your building, do they do a consistently good job?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I think there are people who might participate, but the times scheduled are inappropriate for them. For example, the church I attend has a "Sermon Shapers" group that discusses the most recent sermon and the ideas for the next one. It is scheduled, as I recall, late on a weekday morning, a time when many of us are at work.
By the way, if you rely on random volunteers to clean your building, do they do a consistently good job?
Yes, there's all sorts of reasons... which makes it hard to generalize on a solution.
Sometimes adding something to sweeten the pot-- even something small-- will help. So you can say, we're gonna meet and clean for an hour or so then go out for coffee, and for some folks that's appealing. For others, efficiency is more the thing so promising to be done in an hour or only have to serve 1x a month is the carrot. Finding out what precisely the obstacle is for your particular group will help you figure out what will work.
Another thing to consider is giving people a variety of ways to help, that would fit a variety of interests/ schedules. So you could have a simple form folks could use to volunteer to, for example: a. help clean b. do mailings or cut out shapes for children's class (can be done in evening at home) c. work in nursery.
Having a variety of options you're pushing for all at once sends a couple of messages-- it both suggests that we're a family so we expect everyone to pitch in, but also that we don't expect 1 or 2 people to do everything. People will be more likely to say yes to one thing under those circumstances.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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John D. Ward
Shipmate
# 1378
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
Speaking from the US and as a mom: there is a lot of societal pressure on parents, moms especially I think, to Spend Time With Their Children these days.
Here in Britain, it works the other way around. Whenever any public figure says "I want to spend more time with my family", it is understood as a euphemism for "I have made a complete trainwreck of my job, and am resigning before I get sacked".
Posts: 208 | From: Swansea, Wales, U.K. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Can't help about youth volunteers--except maybe pay them.
But here is one suggestion about cleaning the church. Don't. If no one is willing to step forward, maybe it is not as important of an issue for your people. My guess is after a month someone will come up with a plan on how to clean the church.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
But here is one suggestion about cleaning the church. Don't. If no one is willing to step forward, maybe it is not as important of an issue for your people. My guess is after a month someone will come up with a plan on how to clean the church.
Ah yes, the old "don't do the roommates dishes and he will get the hint when we run out of bowls" trick. Never seen that one backfire...
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Our church has recently seen the retirement of two of our cleaning volunteers who are in their eighties. The problem is there is no one younger willing to take on the job.
The volunteers in their 80s didn't have a job to do in addition to volunteering. The younger people are still employed, right?
In my mother's generation a middle class wife commonly did not hold a "real" job. A family could live comfortably on one office or factory worker income. That meant lots of people had some time to volunteer.
That free time is gone, but many organizations still (mistakenly) assume there are lots of people with lots of free time.
We need to look at the issue from two directions -- how to attract volunteers, which might require better information about the work and rewards of a task, and how to change the ways we do church so not as many volunteers are needed. The days of plentiful volunteers may have shaped how we do things in ways that made sense with lots of volunteers and don't make sense with few volunteers but we've gotten so used to those ways we don't see them as optional.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
ISTM, people are too busy. However, it is often with activities they have chosen to be busy with. Note: I am not applying any value judgement to this observation.
I would also note that volunteers are often abused. Those willing to help are often burdened to the point of exhaustion. This does not help with recruitment.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I think your use of quotation marks is appropriate - because I think "I'm too busy" is often a euphemism for "I don't want to do that."
With good reason. When i was asked to go on a rota for cleaning the church loos, having already done 30-40 hours per week church voluntary work, I am entitled to not want to do it.
Would gladly give money to pay someone else to do it - my time is worth £30-50 an hour.
Completely agree. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I didn't mean to sound as though I was passing judgement on people who say it.
Retired people are often the busiest of all, because everyone asks them to do things because they think they have lots of time. Often they have grandchild or aged parent duties. Sometimes they are retired because they are burnt out and need time and space. They shouldn't feel they have to volunteer to clean toilets.
Nen - who is not retired but spends enough time cleaning toilets in her own house, thank you! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 29. November 2012, 08:28: Message edited by: Nenya ]
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Work is generally more stressful these days (not least because of the requirement for everyone to be 110% perfect at everything they do, at all times), so probably when people have free time they feel they need to do purely leisure pursuits in order to destress.
Amongst people of all ages, there is also a feeling of despair that churches are still trying to operate as in the days when there were twice as many churchgoers. So those who do go to church feel overwhelmed that they are being asked to fill twice as many roles as would have been the case previously.
Perhaps instead of asking people to fit already prescribed jobs, you need instead to ask people what they feel able to offer and work your church around those abilities. Anything urgent still to be done can then be paid for.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Amongst people of all ages, there is also a feeling of despair that churches are still trying to operate as in the days when there were twice as many churchgoers. So those who do go to church feel overwhelmed that they are being asked to fill twice as many roles as would have been the case previously.
This is an important elements - the number of churches in the UK has barely budged, but the number of people attending has fallen significantly. In practice it's worse than that, because many churches have been hollowed out by people choosing relatively large congregations, leaving smaller churches with less volunteers and with the need to compete with the larger churches in what they offer - or at least that's the belief.
The other problem is the fear that if you put your hand up to volunteer, you will end up as solely responsible for it for ever. Whilst this probably doesn't happen too often, the perception of it being a danger must be a deterrent.
I also wonder if parents are taking kids to far more things these days, ballet, music lessons, gym classes, extra tuition, the list seems to be endless. This is aggravated by the 'need' to drive them there instead of letting them go on their own. It's interesting to hear that in Finland pretty much ALL children make their own way to primary school once they start at 7! And given the weather there, that's not trivial.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
ANNOUNCEMENT
++++++++++++
I have just agreed with something that ES has posted.
This may not ever happen again, so I feel the moment should be marked.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Perhaps when people say they're busy, the issue isn't so much one of quantity of time, but rather control of time. When people feel that demands are being made of them over which they have no control, then they're "busy".
One of the big changes in working practice for many people in Britain over the past 20 years is that the boundary between "work" and "home" has been eroded. Colleagues and managers are much more likely now to contact workers at home - in the evenings, at weekends, even on holiday. This means that people never feel quite separate from work, and therefore feel "busy" all the time.
This is one of the ideas in Tom Hodgkinson's excellent book How to be Idle. Humorously written, it's nevertheless full of good ideas about how people can regain control of their time. A friend gave me a copy last year, when I was already partway to deciding to reduce my contracted working hours, and some of Hodgkinson's ideas guided me through that process. The result is that, 18 months on, I'm busier than ever - but with things over which I have control, and which, if I choose, I could say no to. The sense of liberation is still exhilarating. (And yes, I still gripe about the amount of work I have to do!)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Seems to me this is largely about the role and the way that given societies value them.
Nobody values toilet cleaning, even though it is one of the most important role in any organisation or society.
When churches give the status of ordination to the people who clean the toilets as well as those who use their mouths, wave their hands around and produce notes, maybe people will be queuing up to do the cleaning.
In fact if there was ever a church that ordained people to clean the toilets, I'd be there.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
At my previous church, we had an evening clean of the church prior to a wedding; lots of people turned up, brought cake, there was coffee, it was sociable and fun. Occasional major cleaning and polishing sessions meant that the weekly clean was less arduous. However, that was in a city church where weddings involved someone actually known to the congregation.
My present church is a pretty village church, we have more weddings of people with only a tangential connection, and I can't see that working here.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
In fact if there was ever a church that ordained people to clean the toilets, I'd be there.
I once worked at a church where many of the lay voluntary workers were "ordained" - that is, they were introduced into their role with prayer and with the laying-on of hands. Some of them opted not to be, but others found it to be a valuable acknowledgement of their work. I don't think we ever specifically did a toilet-cleaner, but I don't see why we wouldn't have.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dal Segno
al Fine
# 14673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
How many people have the ability to just take time away from work though?
I think this question is the right one. In the Good Old Days, many people had a nine to five job that really was just nine to five. After leaving the office/factory/building site, you went home and had time to do things.
Today, many people have a job that takes more than eight hours a day, and there is an expectation that you'll do work (or at least answer e-mail) outside working hours.
Couple that with companies cutting down on the number of workers for "efficiency savings" and you find that the workers are working long hours without even the benefit of proper breaks during the day.
It is not surprising that they are exhausted at the end of the day and do not have the energy to volunteer.
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Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
Posts: 1200 | From: Pacific's triple star | Registered: Mar 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I'm not really busy. Honestly, I'm not. I managed to fit in two part-time university degrees around everything else I do, and I'n nost studying at the moment, and the week hasn't got any shorter.
So why don't I volunteer for regular jobs at church other than on Sundays?
Because they either happen on weekday evenings or Saturday mornings.
Weekday evenings are difficult because I've got a full-time job, and it takes an hour to get from work to church, and I work later than the mostly retired people who do most churchy stuff think is appropriate for a meeting to start.
That might be generally true. There has been a gradual shift from "blue collar" to "white collar" jobs over the last century or more. And office workers work later than manual workers. 9 to 5 is still the standard, and 10 to 6 quite common, and some will work to 7 or later. And people commute more now. So once upon a time maybe most workers got home at 5 or 5.30 so that meant 6 or 6.30 was a sensible time for an evening meeting. Nowadays I wouldn't bet on most being at home till 7 or later. So if you are going to eat at home or put the kids to bed, eveniong meetings should start at 8.30. Even if you go straight to the meeting from work (as I amost always would because I don't eat till later) 7.30 is the earliest time that makes sense and 8pm better.
Also more peopel nowadays are single and fewer married. And fewer have kids. And single and childless people are more likely to work later and do social things in the envening (which means they go to bed later and get up later) than married-with-kids people. Might have made a difference.
Saturday mornings are out because I've got a full-time job, and I do church stuff on Sunday mornings, so Friday night/Saturday morning is the only time in a normal week I have a chance to get enough sleep. And I have a direct command from God almighty to Moses himself, carved on tablets of stone, to back me up on that one.
And yes, its impossible to get the vicar to understand. She seems to think Saturday morning is an appropriate time for meetings. It is the worst time in the whole week! If the business is important I'd rather have it on a weekday and take the day off work. And if its not important, I'm not going on a Saturday morning. Simple as.
And is there a special place in Hell reserved for the perpetrators of Breakfast Meetings? Not that I know who they are because I have never been to one and home I never ill.
The solution? No Idea. Some suggestions:
1) Have evening events later
2) Schedule as much as possible for Sunday and try to get church members to expect to devote all of Sunday to church. (Why not have regular group Sunday lunches? Put on events for kids in the afternoon while the adults are doing that cleaning, or discussing the plumbing, or whatever it is adults do in church meetings)
3) Make a rule that every time someone schedules a meeting before 2pm on a Saturday they have to have one of their fingers cut off with a pair of secateurs. That'll mean only the *really* important business gets put in that hole.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]
Would gladly give money to pay someone else to do it - my time is worth £30-50 an hour.
Well, yes, of course everyone says let's get professionals in to do the cleaning; we'll pay. Problem is that if we could pay the fuel bill and the maintenance on the rest of the church and the full parish share and have some left over for mission work that would be a fine idea. But as it is, where's the money going to get diverted from?
From me. Instead of using my time to do cleaning.
I am quite serious - the church wastes the talents of its members by giving them inappropriate work instead of discerning their talents.
So how about - instead of spending an hour cleaning, i work an hour and give the money earned to the church?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Even if you go straight to the meeting from work (as I amost always would because I don't eat till later) 7.30 is the earliest time that makes sense and 8pm better.
I agree - clergy who've never had 'a real job' simply don't understand.
I had a meeting yesterday, doing the church's work, at the diocesan offices. It finished at 6. Two buses home took 90 minutes (plus 15 minutes waiting for one, ten for the other = 125 mins journey time). I missed a meeting at 7.30 because i hadn't eaten since 8am so i wanted to eat and also to have my quiet time.
Some clergy guilt-trip people who miss meetings and say they aren't committed enough.
They're wrong. Many are committed to mission and resent wasting time on maintenance.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I enjoy being busy. I'm semi retired now (work two days a week) and I love filling my days. Some is charity work, some involves hobbies, some involves preparing for my two days work. Quite a bit is family stuff.
I don't feel guilty in the least if asked to do something at Church and can't fit it in. I do what I regard as enough. No one can do everything.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
How many people have the ability to just take time away from work though?
I think this question is the right one. In the Good Old Days, many people had a nine to five job that really was just nine to five. After leaving the office/factory/building site, you went home and had time to do things.
I think you all are missing the point of what the man was saying. In many fields of work, community involvement is part of the job, because it helps you make contacts with perspective customers. The man giving me this advice is a real estate agent. If he just went into the office from nine to five, bought an advertisement here and there, and hoped that business would come tripping in the door, he was going to be out of business shortly. But by being active in the community, he met enough people and honed his people skills so that he became the first person someone called when they were ready to buy or sell a house. For him, an hour and a half spent at a Rotary club meeting wasn't an hour and a half that he was taking out of his work day; it was an hour and a half spent marketing himself to perspective clients.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Well, OK. But that says nothing to the majority of us who don't need to do that sort of thing for work, whose workplaces won't appreciate us buggering off for an afternoon to clean the church, and who are being accused of either laziness or not caring because of those facts.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I think you all are missing the point of what the man was saying. In many fields of work, community involvement is part of the job, because it helps you make contacts with perspective customers. The man giving me this advice is a real estate agent.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I may be falling for the stereotype, but if I was asked to make a list of jobs that I would not expect to be involved in community service, estate agents would be near the top of it! Somewhere just above gangsters and drugdealers.
In my experience people who do do community service of some kind through their job tend to be middle-ranking employees of very large organisations. Often public-sector, but more often very large private companies - they like the PR and the image of being a good neighbour. For example the primary school I used to be a governor of, got some computers and office equipment, and occasional volunteer work, from a well-known American bank which has a computer centre nearby. And the oil company I used to work for would allow time off for such things as well. Sometimesw even paid time off. I suspect the university I work for now might as well. The school wouldn't have of course - if you have a few thousand employees you can afford to lose a few for a day a month. If you only have twenty, you probably can't.
[ 29. November 2012, 18:06: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Oh no- the best personal marketers I know are all real estate agents. You have to be on a board, you have to volunteer, you have to send out materials to past clients, you have to do anything to be visible and get referrals. We should all learn from them- "too busy" might not be an answer as often if we all did.
As an example of a job where you wouldn't think this stuff was important but it is, my wife is a florist. You can bet that her community involvement is on her resume and that she does her best to schedule her working hours around the volunteer board she sits on- if your boss knows you are out there making contacts and hustling for business, you have job security.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Hmmmm, pond difference I think Og - over here estate agents stick to selling houses and florists stick to selling flowers.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
This is not just an issue for churches, a lot of voluntary groups are finding it hard to keep and recruit volunteers. In recent years I have known many groups to close for lack of support, including the local schookids football team.
There are many reasons for this, including:-
• One is simply that society has changed and people have a lot more options and interests to fill their time.
• We have a society in which large groups of people just don’t think of being that altruistic anymore
• For some reason a lot of people don’t like committing to anything regular
And yes churches have to be sensitive to their peoples needs, in some areas with lots of working commuters, evening meetings need to be later, however others with different working patterns need earlier meetings –I was at a church once who liked 8:00pm, my current church likes 6:30 so they can have their early nights!!. There are some places where people won’t go out in the evenings. My current church won’t do anything on Sundays after church, they are all too busy rushing off to put their Sunday dinners on for the family to come around. And I have never met anybody who thought a Friday evening was a good time for a meeting.
Its helps if you are sensitive to local needs, but problems recruiting and keeping, volunteers, are more complex .
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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