Ship of Fools: McD's and tiresome non-use of the word Christmas

Thread: McD's and tiresome non-use of the word Christmas Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

So I was in McDonalds last night (sometimes you just give in to whining kids) scarfing down the wholesome, nutricious food that they serve there, when I started looking around the place.

This is UK-centric by the way. I don’t know if it’s the same elsewhere, but the decorations looked very ”Christmassy”, gold stars with Christmas-type words on such as “Gift”, “Llight”, “Tinsel”, “joy” etc. And the menu had “Festive Tomato Sauce”, “Celebration Chicken Sandwich” and “Winter Warmer Burger”.

You can guess what’s coming can’t you. Not one mention anywhere of the actual word “Christmas”. I spent a whole five minutes looking, and not one instance of the word “Christmas”.

I think we should boycott them, although to be honest, I don’t think they’d miss my odd few quid now and then as we rarely go in. It’s only if my lad wants the toy in the happy meal because his mates have got one.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Not one mention anywhere of the actual word “Christmas”. I spent a whole five minutes looking, and not one instance of the word “Christmas”.

So bloody what? Christmas isn't the only festival that happens this time of year you know.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

deano, McD's call their gaffs "restaurants". Do you expect them to get the name of the season right?

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Wait, you want Christianity to sponsor McDonald's promotions? [Ultra confused]

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I was totally gutted that McD's didn't have a dawili burger and KFC didn't have a ramadam bucket. Boycotted them ever since.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Apparently McDonald's in Greece does offer a special Lent menu.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Apparently McDonald's in Greece does offer a special Lent menu.

Can any Orthodox shipmates confirm whether shrimps are approved Lenten fare? Also some of the items look as though they are in some sort of batter. Has no oil been involved in preparing them?

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I was totally gutted that McD's didn't have a dawili burger and KFC didn't have a ramadam bucket. Boycotted them ever since.

Is that a bucket that only opens between sunset and sunrise?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Boycotting because their 'food' is rubbish is sufficient reason.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Wait, you want Christianity to sponsor McDonald's promotions?

There's been an uptick in this "Christmas isn't commercialized enough" line of thinking lately.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

Deano,

I understand how hard it could be to give up "Festive Tomato Sauce". When I'm in a place this time of year I always tell them "Merry Christmas", regardless of what someone hung on the wall.

But "Festive Tomato Sauce". I'll have to make inquiries. Mmm hmm.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I was totally gutted that McD's didn't have a dawili burger and KFC didn't have a ramadam bucket. Boycotted them ever since.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Deano,

I understand how hard it could be to give up "Festive Tomato Sauce". When I'm in a place this time of year I always tell them "Merry Christmas", regardless of what someone hung on the wall.

quote:
"I Usually Say 'Happy Holidays,'" By Jesus Christ

Honestly? It's just a matter of politeness. Some people don't celebrate my birthday, and I try not to make anyone feel uncomfortable about it. I'm like that.

Plus, there are - and I am not exaggerating - a lot of Jewish people in my family. I spent my whole life with them, and yeah, they don't really approve of my career as the Messiah. But families are always like that. You think I want folks celebrating my birthday by taking an entire month to turn America into a sparkly, glowing Gentilepalooza, and making everyone I'm related to feel isolated and weird? Seriously, what kind of massive douche would that make me? If your idea of celebrating my season is making an elderly Wal-Mart greeter offend a few hundred cousins of mine, you just have no idea who I am or what I want.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

Yes, shellfish are Lenten. Olive oil is not, under the strictest fasting rules. Some interpret that to be all oil, but most do not, and frankly most don't follow the oil restriction at all...in my experience anyway.

That batter might contain eggs, but I'd guess if it is being advertised as Lenten, it does not.

As for the whole "they didn't say the word Christmas! How dare they?!" Thing...oh, get over it! If it really bothers you, assume they were New Years decorations.

Christmas doesn't have the sole rights to the words "peace", "joy" , light or tinsel.those words , concepts and decorative items have no unique association with Christmas...next you'll be adding snowmen and reindeer to the list! Non Christians , even non religious do have a holiday coming up.

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Apparently McDonald's in Greece does offer a special Lent menu.
Can any Orthodox shipmates confirm whether shrimps are approved Lenten fare? Also some of the items look as though they are in some sort of batter. Has no oil been involved in preparing them?

Yes, shrimp are Lenten fare even in the strictest of monasteries. The full Lenten fast includes abstinence from meat, dairy and eggs, bony fish, alcohol, and olive oil. In some areas, the restriction on oil is extended to apply to other oils, but I'm pretty sure it's just olive oil in Greece.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
"I Usually Say 'Happy Holidays,'" By Jesus Christ

Honestly? It's just a matter of politeness. Some people don't celebrate my birthday, and I try not to make anyone feel uncomfortable about it. I'm like that.

Plus, there are - and I am not exaggerating - a lot of Jewish people in my family. I spent my whole life with them, and yeah, they don't really approve of my career as the Messiah. But families are always like that. You think I want folks celebrating my birthday by taking an entire month to turn America into a sparkly, glowing Gentilepalooza, and making everyone I'm related to feel isolated and weird? Seriously, what kind of massive douche would that make me? If your idea of celebrating my season is making an elderly Wal-Mart greeter offend a few hundred cousins of mine, you just have no idea who I am or what I want.

What is it, The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?

In any of the stores I go into it is Christmas decorations. There's no confusion as to what they are saying in their decorations so they might as well say it with their mouths.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When I'm in a place this time of year I always tell them "Merry Christmas", regardless of what someone hung on the wall.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What is it, The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?

In any of the stores I go into it is Christmas decorations. There's no confusion as to what they are saying in their decorations so they might as well say it with their mouths.

Wait a sec. What difference does it make what kind of decorations are out? You claim you say "Merry Christmas" regardless of what kind of decorations (menorah) are present. Or are you saying that you won't go into stores that don't have Christmas decorations out? I guess that's another possible interpretation of "any of the stores I go into".

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

I say 'Happy Christmas' regardless of which store I'm in or what decorations they have in. To date, I've never received any objection or complaint.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What is it, The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?

Seems to me more like the holiday that can't shut up.

--Tom Clune

[ 07. December 2012, 13:52: Message edited by: tclune ]

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When I'm in a place this time of year I always tell them "Merry Christmas", regardless of what someone hung on the wall.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What is it, The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?

In any of the stores I go into it is Christmas decorations. There's no confusion as to what they are saying in their decorations so they might as well say it with their mouths.
Wait a sec. What difference does it make what kind of decorations are out? You claim you say "Merry Christmas" regardless of what kind of decorations (menorah) are present. Or are you saying that you won't go into stores that don't have Christmas decorations out? I guess that's another possible interpretation of "any of the stores I go into".

The thing is, though, Croesos that the OP is about the UK, not the USA. As Wikipedia notes

quote:
In the United States, the collective phrase "Happy Holidays" is often used as a generic cover-all greeting for all of the winter holidays: Thanksgiving, Christmas Day, New Year's Day, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa; however, the phrase is not widespread in other countries.

The main objection to it here is that it is yet another Americanization of culture, where rich American corporations come to tell us what we ought to be thinking and saying, whilst taking our money and banking it far from the nearest taxman.

Amazon copped an earful for this a couple of years ago - check out the difference between amazon.com and amazon.co.uk currently. They are still getting hostile press on the tax-evasion thing.

Though I have to concede that anyone who patronizes McD in the first place is asking for all they get, in many ways.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?

I love that. "He who must not be named." [Killing me]

Still, I think that it is terrific that we celebrate the Lord's birth with a month-long extravaganza that is so huge that even non-believers cannot avoid participating.

I say God Bless them!

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
The main objection to it here is that it is yet another Americanization of culture, . . .

I'm pretty sure that if you're eating at McDonalds that battle has already been conceded, regardless of what specific greeting is used.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?
I love that. "He who must not be named."

Still, I think that it is terrific that we celebrate the Lord's birth with a month-long extravaganza that is so huge that even non-believers cannot avoid participating.

I say God Bless them!

I wish I thought that's what most of them were doing, Freddy. It looks more like Saturnalia to me.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
The main objection to it here is that it is yet another Americanization of culture, . . .
I'm pretty sure that if you're eating at McDonalds that battle has already been conceded, regardless of what specific greeting is used.

Well, yes, but MacD's restaurants were not based in Gitmo-style diplomatic enclaves last time I looked. They do interact with the locals, much as may wring my hands about it.

Posted by Hawking Dawkins (# 17457) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When I'm in a place this time of year I always tell them "Merry Christmas", regardless of what someone hung on the wall.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What is it, The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?

In any of the stores I go into it is Christmas decorations. There's no confusion as to what they are saying in their decorations so they might as well say it with their mouths.
Wait a sec. What difference does it make what kind of decorations are out? You claim you say "Merry Christmas" regardless of what kind of decorations (menorah) are present. Or are you saying that you won't go into stores that don't have Christmas decorations out? I guess that's another possible interpretation of "any of the stores I go into".
The thing is, though, Croesos that the OP is about the UK, not the USA. As Wikipedia notes
quote:
In the United States, the collective phrase "Happy Holidays" is often used as a generic cover-all greeting for all of the winter holidays: Thanksgiving, Christmas Day, New Year's Day, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa; however, the phrase is not widespread in other countries.
The main objection to it here is that it is yet another Americanization of culture, where rich American corporations come to tell us what we ought to be thinking and saying, whilst taking our money and banking it far from the nearest taxman.

Amazon copped an earful for this a couple of years ago - check out the difference between amazon.com and amazon.co.uk currently. They are still getting hostile press on the tax-evasion thing.

Though I have to concede that anyone who patronizes McD in the first place is asking for all they get, in many ways.

Posted by Hawking Dawkins (# 17457) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When I'm in a place this time of year I always tell them "Merry Christmas", regardless of what someone hung on the wall.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What is it, The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?

In any of the stores I go into it is Christmas decorations. There's no confusion as to what they are saying in their decorations so they might as well say it with their mouths.
Wait a sec. What difference does it make what kind of decorations are out? You claim you say "Merry Christmas" regardless of what kind of decorations (menorah) are present. Or are you saying that you won't go into stores that don't have Christmas decorations out? I guess that's another possible interpretation of "any of the stores I go into".
The thing is, though, Croesos that the OP is about the UK, not the USA. As Wikipedia notes
quote:
In the United States, the collective phrase "Happy Holidays" is often used as a generic cover-all greeting for all of the winter holidays: Thanksgiving, Christmas Day, New Year's Day, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa; however, the phrase is not widespread in other countries.
The main objection to it here is that it is yet another Americanization of culture, where rich American corporations come to tell us what we ought to be thinking and saying, whilst taking our money and banking it far from the nearest taxman.

Amazon copped an earful for this a couple of years ago - check out the difference between amazon.com and amazon.co.uk currently. They are still getting hostile press on the tax-evasion thing.

Though I have to concede that anyone who patronizes McD in the first place is asking for all they get, in many ways.

Honest Ron, you've Americanised yourself lol.
Americanization should read Americanisation
Patronizes should read Patronises.
Just saying [Smile]

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Ho ho ho - and a Merry Christmas to you too, Hawking Dawkins! And welcome to the ship!

Actually, the OED has both as English usage, with -ize as the prior form. They both stretch back to the days before orthography caught on. Some people press for the "s" usage because they feel the "z" usage is too classicist (from the Greek) and the "s" usage is commoner in current UK usage - I think by around 2 to 1, though I may have misremembered the figures.

[ 07. December 2012, 14:23: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawking Dawkins:
Honest Ron, you've Americanised yourself lol.
Americanization should read Americanisation
Patronizes should read Patronises.
Just saying

One of my assistant pastors is moving next week from our beautiful church here in Philadelphia to the congregation in Colchester. He has switched the English in his word processor from American English to U.K. English and comments that he is surprised at how many words "you people" misspell.

But I should say that he and his family are very much looking forward to experiencing an English Christmas. They have heard that it is a wonderful thing and subtly different from the American version. I'm sure they'll head for McD's first thing!

Posted by BessHiggs (# 15176) on :

Ummm...isn't this Advent right now? Why would I say Merry Christmas when it isn't Christmas yet? It would be like my wishing my husband, born in March, Happy Birthday in the middle of February. [Confused]

I'm not really that obtuse, but that's always the first thought that springs to my mind when these annual kerfluffles arise. ISTM that many of the folks I run into who are all up in arms about the alleged war on Christmas couldn't even tell you when Advent is, let alone what it is. (Same goes for Easter and Lent in these parts). Every year, I despair a little bit, as it sometimes seems Chrsitmas is seen as the be all and end all of Christianity.

You're Either For Us or Against Us is a terrible attitude to have towards the rest of the world when you are supposed to be preparing to celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace.

YMMV...

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

Is the point to wish someone a happy YOUR holiday, or a happy THEIR holiday? I can't imagine the self absorption it takes to knowingly, deliberately wish someone a happy holiday they do not celebrate. It makes the good wishes about me, rather than about the person to whom I ma, presumably wishing the good holiday.

When in a situation where it is reasonable to assume that the person to whom I am speaking is Christian, then I say merry Christmas. If I have reason to believe they are Jewish, I wish them happy hanukah. If I have no way of guessing their beliefs or which holiday THEY celebrate, then I either go for happy holidays, or happy new year, or just have a great weekend...

It's not supposed to be about me.

A store or resteraunt reasonably can assume that they will have customers of different faiths, or of none... So a genaric display makes the most sense.

It's common curtesy!

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
You're Either For Us or Against Us is a terrible attitude to have towards the rest of the world when you are supposed to be preparing to celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace.

YMMV...

From the aforementioned satire by "Jesus Christ":

quote:
Look, none of this is really about celebrating me at all. It's to show that you're a member of a club, and that club has economic and political power. Well, leave me out of it. I was offered that sort of deal, you know. I had a whole conversation on top of a mountain with someone, and that's exactly what he put on the table. I turned it down. So should you.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Yea, its the annual Help, Help Christmas is being Repressed thread. Funny how this is felt in countries where Christianity enjoys dominance as a religion.

HRB, not everything American is bad, nor everything British good. I like Happy Holidays. It does not denigrate Christmas, but elevate the other winter holidays, which are just as important to their adherents as Christmas to Christians. And some of those celebrations are older than Christmas.
"Jesus is the reason for the season"? No, at least not the only one.

Mere Nick, If one extends to another the greeting associated with their celebration, why would anyone object? For myself, I return the greeting with whatever greeting they gave me. This is called courtesy.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I was totally gutted that McD's didn't have a dawili burger and KFC didn't have a ramadam bucket. Boycotted them ever since.
Is that a bucket that only opens between sunset and sunrise?

That would be awesome.

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

Dear Deano,

Congratulations on finding a reason not to patronize McDonald's. Any reason whatsoever not to go there is better than going there. I can't help you with the Christmas issue because I have no clout, having gone as it is about once every three years, when I'm in a hurry. They wouldn't miss me.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

I’m not that bothered about McD’s doing their own thing with the decorations to be honest, but you certainly couldn’t mistake the decorations for anything other than Christmas decorations though. If you can’t face going into a McD’s to check them out, then at least look through one of their windows and you will see what I mean. Again caveat that with UK-centric point of view.

The thing is someone at McD’s must have designed those decorations and food names and had them approved before being made and distributed. These things go through teams of people to get it just right, but it just seems to me that they went to an awful lot of trouble to make them look like Christmas decorations whilst avoiding using the word itself. It would have been easier – in my mind – to just have used the actual word.

For most people in their it’s just background, something on the edge of your consciousness that you wouldn’t be expected to notice. I suspect most people will be too busy trying to supress the gag reflex to worry about the tinselly, gold starts hanging from the ceiling. But I’m made of sterner stuff and having swallowed the Big Mac in one lump, I took a glance round. If you do actually look at the decorations it is obvious. Seriously you won’t be able to look at the McD’s decorations now without the lack of the word Christmas glaring out at you.

Of course McD’s food is awful, but it’s quick, convenient and it shuts the kids up for a few precious moments whilst their shovelling chicken nuggets down their little necks. Also, isn't KFC the only place you would ever buy food in a BUCKET! Whatever! It will just serve to counterpoint the delicious meal we’ll be having at home tonight when we will have the time to cook it.

As far as the naming of the season goes, I really don’t care what they call the dreary commercial-, food, and binge-drinking- fest that accompanies Christmas nowadays. To be honest, if they stopped calling it Christmas and went for Saturnalia, Festival of Light, Winterval or whatever, it would make me quite happy. It would mean that the real Christmas is returned back to where it belongs, in Church on Christmas morning! If McD’s want to do that I would welcome it, but they won’t, so we have this dreadful halfway-house where the events are tedious, sentimental, vomit-laden excuses to buy the latest Xbox or Barbie Ho’ doll, masquerading under a totally inappropriate name that companies are careful to avoid using in order to sell more of their tat. I’m glad I’m a shareholder!

[ 07. December 2012, 15:19: Message edited by: deano ]

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

I am very thankful that in my entire life I only spent one holiday season as a minimum wage retail worker. And that was at IKEA.

I made the decision (on my own, with no direction from management) to wish people "Happy Holidays" whilst checking them out during that December. Only one person took it upon themselves to go Full Deano on me and explain very pompously, and very piously, and very loudly that it was CHRISTMAS and I should wish people MERRY CHRISTMAS because BABY JESUS.

I was roused from my retail hell haze just enough to look that patron right in the eye and state, "I'm a traditional Christian, and it's still just Advent."

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Only one person took it upon themselves to go Full Deano on me and explain very pompously, and very piously, and very loudly that it was CHRISTMAS and I should wish people MERRY CHRISTMAS because BABY JESUS.

NO, NO, NO!!!!

I DON@T GIVE A RATS ARSE WHATEVER WE CALL THE TIME OF YEAR!!!!

CHRISTMAS WILL START FOR ME AT THE CAROL SERVICE ON CHRISTMAS EVE!!!!

CALL THE MONEY-FEST ANYTHING YOU LIKE!!!!

MY CHRISTMAS ISN'T BEING REPRESSED!!!!

Sorry for the shouting but I want it making clear that I DON'T CARE WHAT IT'S CALLED!!!!

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
You can guess what’s coming can’t you. Not one mention anywhere of the actual word “Christmas”. I spent a whole five minutes looking, and not one instance of the word “Christmas”.

I think we should boycott them, . . .

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
NO, NO, NO!!!!

I DON@T GIVE A RATS ARSE WHATEVER WE CALL THE TIME OF YEAR!!!!

I'm having a hard time reconciling that first post (spending "a whole five minutes" meticulously searching a fast food restaurant for signs of theological compliance and suggesting a boycott when the deficiency was uncovered) with the last (not giving "a rat's arse" about such things) in any kind of coherent manner. Explanation please?

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

It's rather floored me, too [Confused]

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

lilbuddha - I wouldn't dream of saying all things American are bad - far from it. But there is a certain cluster of factors around this one from the UK perspective which make it different from the US, which are the ones mentioned earlier.

"The War Against Christmas"? I don't really want to get into that one - I'm just trying to confine myself to explaining why people need to take into account cultural differences. You don't need to agree with them, just understand why things should not be interpreted as identical on both sides of the pond on this one. Yes, we do have "War on Christmas" people here too of course.

And talking of cultural factors, it's also worth mentioning a couple more. Firstly, it is a community festival in the UK. That is somewhat on a collision path with the idea of it being a personal issue (either of one's self, or of others), which is at the root of the American usage issue. It would indeed be rude of me to insist that you can only be the subject of my goodwill if you consent to my religion or lack thereof. I doubt any Brits see it that way - the offer is unconditional, whatever you may think of what I do or don't believe. No doubt there is much to say on the individual vs. communitarian difference between Europe and the USA, but it would take far too long here.

Secondly, the more historically literate are aware that we did indeed have a War on Christmas at one stage. It ranked amongst the things that people disliked about puritanism in its English form at least. People may well have an aversion from that.

But as I say, my posts are more to do with pointing out transatlantic differences so people can understand why matters in general may not be seen the same way, even though some factors may be.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

No one seems to use anything other than "holiday" and "holiday gift" any more. Haven't been to a McDonald's for about 20 years. The last time I was there they didn't serve food. Or at least anything recognizable as such, though I'd understand in the UK that McDonald's might be a step up from traditional fare. [Projectile]

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm having a hard time reconciling that first post (spending "a whole five minutes" meticulously searching a fast food restaurant for signs of theological compliance and suggesting a boycott when the deficiency was uncovered) with the last (not giving "a rat's arse" about such things) in any kind of coherent manner. Explanation please?

Sorry, British humour, I'm afraid. "A whole five minutes" was meant to represent just having a casual look round whilst waiting for the rest of the family to finish eating. Nothing more. I didn't time it, and I didn't spend five actual minutes. I remained seated all the time. I just looked round, read, out of idle curiosity, what was written on one of the decorations, noticed the word Christmas wasn't on there, looked at a few more. And finally went "Ho hum... there is a pattern here... Haven't you lot finished yet? No I don't want a f&*(ing McFlurry!!" (that last bit is also meant to be humerous by the way!)

The boycott thing was again an example of MY British sarcasm. Usually when this sort of stuff is put out, people will get on their high horses and claim we should boycott, smash windows and so on. I was being tongue-in-cheek. Sorry it didn't work.

Funny stuff is never funny if you have to explain them, is it?

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Was the whole thread a joke then? I ask, cos it seems that about a half hour ago you very much gave a rats ass, and then started shouting contradictory stuff.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The boycott thing was again an example of MY British sarcasm. Usually when this sort of stuff is put out, people will get on their high horses and claim we should boycott, smash windows and so on. I was being tongue-in-cheek. Sorry it didn't work.

Funny stuff is never funny if you have to explain them, is it?

I think you've run afoul of "Poe's Law". It's hard to find something like that humorous (or humourous) when there are actual people suggesting precisely the same actions in all seriousness. In other words, if there's no upper limit to the absurdity of some religious outrage artists, it's impossible to go "over the top" in a satirical way. There is no top to go over.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
But as I say, my posts are more to do with pointing out transatlantic differences so people can understand why matters in general may not be seen the same way, even though some factors may be.

Apologies for misinterpreting. However, I would note that in most Brits do "a" and Yanks do "b" threads, someone will illustrate this not being completely true, and not due to recent cross pondination. But, being raised in multiple countries and continents, my reference points are different and I may may see things the same as lifelong residents.
Enough from me on this tangent and back to our regularly scheduled programme, "The Attack on Christmas"

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The boycott thing was again an example of MY British sarcasm. Usually when this sort of stuff is put out, people will get on their high horses and claim we should boycott, smash windows and so on. I was being tongue-in-cheek. Sorry it didn't work.

Funny stuff is never funny if you have to explain them, is it?
I think you've run afoul of "Poe's Law". It's hard to find something like that humorous (or humourous) when there are actual people suggesting precisely the same actions in all seriousness. In other words, if there's no upper limit to the absurdity of some religious outrage artists, it's impossible to go "over the top" in a satirical way. There is no top to go over.

And this was posted in Purg. And as the label on this tin says serious, that is the way most of us will interpret an OP.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I DON@T GIVE A RATS ARSE WHATEVER WE CALL THE TIME OF YEAR!!!!

"McD's and tiresome non-use of the word Christmas" is the title of the thread. Either you care what it's called or you don't. Make up your mind.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

It does somewhat inhibit meaningful discussion.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

I was at the movies this past weekend with friends, and during the interminable series of AMC commercials that always precedes the movie the theater flogged pre-purchased passes, which were "perfect for everyone on your holiday list!" What irks me about that is not any War On Krissmuss nonsense, but the oh-so-culturally-sensitive pretense that there are other major holidays this month which feature the exchange of gifts.

(Yes, I know that people exchange gifts for Hanukkah & Kwanzaa. The gift exchange is expressly in imitation of Christmas, and everybody knows that)

Having said that, though, for retailers it's probably best to go on wishing customers a happy holiday, since they generally have no idea which holiday (if any) the customer celebrates.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

Well, for many years and in many countries, gift exchange were not associated with Christmas at all, but with either St. Nicholas day (which was yesterday), or with New Years, or with "three kings" day... yes, all christian (except New Years), but not specifically Christmas.

Gift exchanges on Hanukah probably are copying the modern christian practice, but other cultures have exchanged gifts at midwinter long before Christians adopted the practice.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Having said that, though, for retailers it's probably best to go on wishing customers a happy holiday, since they generally have no idea which holiday (if any) the customer celebrates.

In a similar vein, it's probably a lot easier to sell a "Winter Warmer Burger" than a "Jesus Burger". Most non-Christians (and a fairly sizable chunk of Christians) would feel uncomfortable eating something called that, though there is precedent.

[ 07. December 2012, 17:31: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :

quote:
Originally posted by somebody further upstream:
Jesus is the reason for the season.

Axial tilt is the reason for the season.

What?

Oh not the literal season? Carry on.

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I was roused from my retail hell haze just enough to look that patron right in the eye and state, "I'm a traditional Christian, and it's still just Advent."

And did you get any response or just incoherent splutterings?

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawking Dawkins:
Honest Ron, you've Americanised yourself lol.
Americanization should read Americanisation
Patronizes should read Patronises.
Just saying

No actually!

The ize and ise endings are both perfectly acceptable in British (i.e. real) English. The Yanks mostly use ize, not because they dumbed it down - like most of their misspelling - but because the British complicated it after the Yanks had left. The ise form comes from a French affectation

"Just sayin' [Biased]

[ 07. December 2012, 17:55: Message edited by: Hairy Biker ]

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

The word "tiresome" in the thread title was meant to be representative of those genuinely tiresome threads that we see every year moaning about Christmas being secularised!

I forgot about the Americans, and assorted others without a British, or indeed any, sense of humour.

The American comedies I watch are The Big Bang Theory, Family Guy and American Dad, so I just assumed that irony was now used in America. Not so much, it seems.

It hasn't precluded serious debate though. People are debating. Mostly about my sense of humour I must admit, but whatever.

I wanted a debate about how as Christians we really shouldn't worry about the secular side because we of all people know what the Truth is.

It didn't work. Sorry.

Annoyingly I'm writing this waiting in a queue at the Tescos click and collect counter to pick up a Christmas prezzy!

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

[Confused]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

deano:

quote:
I forgot about the Americans, and assorted others without a British, or indeed any, sense of humour.

Or maybe your writing in a "humorous" vein isn't quite as good as you think it is. Note the liar quotes.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

deano, as soon as you're funny, we'll let you know.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When I'm in a place this time of year I always tell them "Merry Christmas", regardless of what someone hung on the wall.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What is it, The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?

In any of the stores I go into it is Christmas decorations. There's no confusion as to what they are saying in their decorations so they might as well say it with their mouths.
Wait a sec. What difference does it make what kind of decorations are out? You claim you say "Merry Christmas" regardless of what kind of decorations (menorah) are present. Or are you saying that you won't go into stores that don't have Christmas decorations out? I guess that's another possible interpretation of "any of the stores I go into".

What I'm saying is that the one or two stores I go into have Christmas decorations up and I say "Merry Christmas" back to their "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays", "Season's Greetings", "Oh no, its you", or whatever.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
If you can’t face going into a McD’s to check them out, then at least look through one of their windows and you will see what I mean. Again caveat that with UK-centric point of view.

I was in one earlier (I needed to use the toilet) and they were playing quite a lot of music that included the word "Christmas".

But why are you singling out Mickey D's for criticism? I can think of a lot of places that don't have the word Christmas displayed anywhere.

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yea, its the annual Help, Help Christmas is being Repressed thread. Funny how this is felt in countries where Christianity enjoys dominance as a religion.

Come on - even fifteen years ago, shops generally had decorations with something of a religious theme. Now they studiously don't. Why is it so hard to accept that it does reflect the de-Christianising of society? Why is it so hard to accept that some Christians might reasonably think this a bad thing?

Instead, the polite position seems to be that it's always been this way, nothing has really changed, and - most of all - one mustn't be rude just as one oughtn't to mention the war when Germans are around. Come on - don't get upset about it if you don't want to, but at least accept that it's happening.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I would not call it so much the de-Christianing so much as the recognition that society is made up of others as well. And that others have traditions at the same time of year. Acknowledging the traditions of others does nothing to diminish your traditions.
It is not a zero sum equation.

Also, the celebration of Christmas that many Christians claim as traditional isn't really. Or, more accurately, the level of decoration and celebration has waxed and waned over the centuries and some of the most ardent suppressors have been Christians themselves.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Having said that, though, for retailers it's probably best to go on wishing customers a happy holiday, since they generally have no idea which holiday (if any) the customer celebrates.
In a similar vein, it's probably a lot easier to sell a "Winter Warmer Burger" than a "Jesus Burger". Most non-Christians (and a fairly sizable chunk of Christians) would feel uncomfortable eating something called that, though there is precedent.

Maybe we could rename Dagwood dogs/corn dogs as "Jesus-on-a-stick" for the season.

I'll get my coat.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
If you can’t face going into a McD’s to check them out, then at least look through one of their windows and you will see what I mean. Again caveat that with UK-centric point of view.
I was in one earlier (I needed to use the toilet) and they were playing quite a lot of music that included the word "Christmas".

But why are you singling out Mickey D's for criticism? I can think of a lot of places that don't have the word Christmas displayed anywhere.

'cos that's where I was last night when I noticed it. Haven't been into shops much recently. Working/Internet Shopping/Dad's taxi/visiting have pretty much acocunted for most of my waking hours.

Okay, knock yourselves out with the humour stuff. Sometimes you miss the target! To paraphrase the great Stewie Griffin...

"that, that.. [joke] was flawed from the ground up, it was too wordy, not funny and just didn't get going at all, but we'll work on it and get back to you!"

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Having said that, though, for retailers it's probably best to go on wishing customers a happy holiday, since they generally have no idea which holiday (if any) the customer celebrates.
In a similar vein, it's probably a lot easier to sell a "Winter Warmer Burger" than a "Jesus Burger". Most non-Christians (and a fairly sizable chunk of Christians) would feel uncomfortable eating something called that, though there is precedent.
Maybe we could rename Dagwood dogs/corn dogs as "Jesus-on-a-stick" for the season.

I'll get my coat.

Oh I agree, but the fact that once I'd noticed that it never said the word "Christmas" anywhere, it just stood out. They've probably always done it, but I've just never noticed before.

It serves me right, I suppose, for having the brass neck to sit their looking round instead of spending more money on something to eat!

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceannaideach:

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I was roused from my retail hell haze just enough to look that patron right in the eye and state, "I'm a traditional Christian, and it's still just Advent."

And did you get any response or just incoherent splutterings?

The latter, of course.

My point, which was so subtly ironic in its humor that it seems Deano missed when he went Capslock Rage of Doom, is to get off your goddamn high horse regarding decorations in retail areas. This was a decision made by someone so far up the pay scale that they make before lunch what the facetime workers make in a year.

I loved December at IKEA because the sprigs of tinsel and paper cutouts changed the view from the unending acres of polished concrete and industrial shelving and self-centered, self-righteous customers. I was spat upon, I have a permanent dent in my shin from a car slamming into it, I repeatedly had crates upwards of 25kg dropped on my head, and twice someone threatened to report me to their Congressperson for infringing their Constitutional rights to have a plastic bag for free-- and you begrudge me a little sparkly light for a major festival season, no matter what I call it?

Obviously someone needs to change their screen name to Ebenezer.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
deano, McD's call their gaffs "restaurants". Do you expect them to get the name of the season right?

Actually they call them "stores."

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What is it, The Holiday that Dare Not Speak its Name?
Seems to me more like the holiday that can't shut up.

--Tom Clune

Quotes file (if it's not already there).

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I was roused from my retail hell haze just enough to look that patron right in the eye and state, "I'm a traditional Christian, and it's still just Advent."

You rock.

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
What irks me about that is not any War On Krissmuss nonsense, but the oh-so-culturally-sensitive pretense that there are other major holidays this month which feature the exchange of gifts.

(Yes, I know that people exchange gifts for Hanukkah & Kwanzaa. The gift exchange is expressly in imitation of Christmas, and everybody knows that)

??? You say it's a pretense that other holidays feature exchange of gifts, then immediately admit there are other holidays that feature an exchange of gifts. Whether or not it's in imitation of Christmas doesn't change the fact that they're holidays that feature exchange of gifts, and thus "holiday gift-giving" is not exclusively a reference to Christmas.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Just as long as I don't get wished a Merry Crimbo this year. Who on earth came up with that awful variation of Christmas, which is literally 'birth of Christ'.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Just as long as I don't get wished a Merry Crimbo this year. Who on earth came up with that awful variation of Christmas, which is literally 'birth of Christ'.

No. To quote The Repository of All Knowledge, "Christmas" is a compound word originating in the term "Christ's Mass".

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The word "tiresome" in the thread title was meant to be representative of those genuinely tiresome threads that we see every year moaning about Christmas being secularised!

I forgot about the Americans, and assorted others without a British, or indeed any, sense of humour.

Hell call.

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I would not call it so much the de-Christianing so much as the recognition that society is made up of others as well. And that others have traditions at the same time of year. Acknowledging the traditions of others does nothing to diminish your traditions.
It is not a zero sum equation.

Call it what you like, but it reflects the declining importance of Christianity.

The presence of other traditions is absolutely irrelevant.

quote:
Also, the celebration of Christmas that many Christians claim as traditional isn't really. Or, more accurately, the level of decoration and celebration has waxed and waned over the centuries and some of the most ardent suppressors have been Christians themselves.

So what?

Twenty years ago it might have been Christians who objected to nativity scenes in liquor stores, but it isn't now.

I expect in your case these arguments are genuinely held. In other cases they reflect an inability to face up to what is happening.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cod:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I would not call it so much the de-Christianing so much as the recognition that society is made up of others as well. And that others have traditions at the same time of year. Acknowledging the traditions of others does nothing to diminish your traditions.
It is not a zero sum equation.
Call it what you like, but it reflects the declining importance of Christianity.

The presence of other traditions is absolutely irrelevant.

I think you've perfectly captured the cry of the aggrieved hegemon.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Seems like just a few days ago someone on your side of the pawn was wondering if we Americans were so stupid to be fighting a War on Christmas. Look to your side Brits.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

John Stewart had a very funny segment on the Fox war on Christmas.

As a non Christmas celebrant,I'm slightly puzzled by the hatred for bland corporate festive non religious decorations. Do you really want a nativity with the three wise men bearing big Macs? My favorite example is the Japanese Department store that wasn't clear on the concept and along with a tree put up a crucifix with Santa nailed to it.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
someone on your side of the pawn

I'm almost certain you mean "pond."

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Cod:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I would not call it so much the de-Christianing so much as the recognition that society is made up of others as well. And that others have traditions at the same time of year. Acknowledging the traditions of others does nothing to diminish your traditions.
It is not a zero sum equation.
Call it what you like, but it reflects the declining importance of Christianity.

The presence of other traditions is absolutely irrelevant.
I think you've perfectly captured the cry of the aggrieved hegemon.

More the remark of an amused observer.

We are talking about the feast traditionally celebrated on 25th December, I believe. I can't offhand think of any traditional ways of marking that date, except some invented pseudo-Druidic ones perhaps.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I believe most of us are referencing a broader period of time than the one day.

Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Do you really want a nativity with the three wise men bearing big Macs?

Yes, that would be awesome! Because it would hammer home to all the Dail Mail reading Meldrews in Britain the message that Christmas celebrations delegated to the civic authorities will inevitably miss the point. A bit like that chocolate crucifix a few years back, which sent a brilliant, but often overlooked (in all the righteous outrage and hot air) message about the confectionisation of Easter.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

If we were trying to make nativity scenes authentic, the Three Wise Men wouldn't be there anyway. Having them carry hamburgers might just make the inaccuracy more apparent, that's all.

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I believe most of us are referencing a broader period of time than the one day.

Are those who put up their Christmas decorations two days before in some sense celebrating a different festival?

I think you know the answer to that.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

This might not be the right place to post this...but a large, glitzy (that is, not where I go, which is small and oily) motorcycle dealership on my way to work has a full-on nativity scene in the window - straw, 3 foot figures, the lot.

To my own surprise, I really like it. Some manager or other presumably had to say 'yes, I know we're a bike shop, but it's Christmas and I like them'. I can't see it winning any sales at all around here, which is of course why it impresses me.

Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Boycotting because their 'food' is rubbish is sufficient reason.

Leo beat me to it. Why do you need a reason to boycott McDonald's?

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

posted by mark:

quote:

This might not be the right place to post this...but a large, glitzy (that is, not where I go, which is small and oily) motorcycle dealership on my way to work has a full-on nativity scene in the window - straw, 3 foot figures, the lot.

The baby Jesus on a motorcycle could actually look quite cool

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

They said 'if you can think it, it's been done on the internet'. Adult-Jesus-on-a-motorbike-figurine - check (sorry, you'll have to Google it - I couldn't get the link to work). But baby-Jesus-on-a-bike - nada!! [Eek!]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Boycotting because their 'food' is rubbish is sufficient reason.
Leo beat me to it. Why do you need a reason to boycott McDonald's?

Can you boycott a place that you wouldn't go to even if they conceded the reason you're boycotting them?

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

I do it all the time, palimpsest. I feel so much better for it.

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