Ship of Fools: Away in a manger ?

Thread: Away in a manger ? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Imersge Canfield (# 17431) on :

If Jesus was to be born in the 21st century (assuming the world does nt end on Friday !) where, how and when would he or she appear ?

Also, I wonder how the life would work-out and what form a mesage would take in these times ? What would be the lingua franca now ?

Any thoughts or happy imaginings ?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

He could hardly do better than to be born in Bethlehem, which is now, as it was then, poor, off the beaten track, and occupied by a foreign power.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Well, given Jesus was born into a territory that was under the domination of the world’s foremost superpower of the time, and into a religion not very popular with that superpower, perhaps He would be born in Afghanistan.

Makes you think.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

True although I believe China at that time could also be considered a superpower.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

I think these kinds of mental exercises are sometimes more about ourselves and what we want to tell others about what we think about the world than it is about how and where we think Jesus would be born. I think a more fruitful exercise would be to meditate on what and where things actually happened: Bethlehem, Judea, the Roman Empire, etc. and why the Lord deemed it to be the Fullness of Time.

[ 15. December 2012, 18:26: Message edited by: Pancho ]

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Why is it that so many of the Empires of the last few centuries (Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, British, German, American), have been so strongly Christian during the peak of their power?

And is it a necessary part of ceasing to control an Empire that the former Imperials should also lose their "strong" Christianity?

Having had the blessing of Rome on their missionary and slaving efforts, Spain lost Imperial power and retreated into sullen RCism, having spent all their wealth on the Wars of the Reformation.

Some of the Dutch were definitely using religion as a power focus in, for instance, South Africa, but I don't know enough about Indonesia to carry this idea forward in this example.

The French tried to abandon religion in the revolution, but got it back again during their Imperial time, and have now become much less Catholic or religious at all.

The British spread Anglicanism ("muscular Christianity") as a symbol of Empire during the 19th Century, and have now pretty well given up on religion.

The Americans had aggressive Protestantism as part of their Imperial process (and their forces are apparently still in the thrall of aggressive evangelicalism, judging by the news from West Point this week), but they are quite rapidly turning "non-religious" as the excesses of the political religionists are becoming more apparent.

It woill be interesting to see if the Chinese or Indian Empires are backed by religious fervour!

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

It has to be in a territory controlled by the world's greatest current empire or power. Maybe an island in the Pacific, probably controlled by America. Peopled by indigenous people no one really cares or has heard about, threatened with inundation by the rising ocean.

Posted by Brother Oscar (# 17227) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I think these kinds of mental exercises are sometimes more about ourselves and what we want to tell others about what we think about the world than it is about how and where we think Jesus would be born. I think a more fruitful exercise would be to meditate on what and where things actually happened: Bethlehem, Judea, the Roman Empire, etc. and why the Lord deemed it to be the Fullness of Time.

Pancho, I agree greatly. The question 'where would Jesus be born today?' is mistaken because it devalues the historical dimension of Jesus' existence. Jesus just was the Son of Man born in Bethlehem. It is only by beginning with the story of Jesus born in Bethlehem, Judea, the Roman Empire... that we can recapitulate the Good News today by celebrating the Incarnation as part of a counter-imperial Christian culture.

The really radical question, I think, is where should I be celebrating the incarnation on the 25th December. The last four Christmases I've spent working on a suicide helpline - that's incarnational theology for you. This year I don't know where I'll be, but before I bought any Christmas presents this year I made a donation to Crisis (at Christmas). And now I'll have to go to confession for boasting. I'm not boasting. I struggle to affirm the Incarnation in my day to day life but this is where I would begin.

[Edit for grammar.]

[ 15. December 2012, 20:05: Message edited by: Brother Oscar ]

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :

When you're not looking and at a time you least expect...

So definitely not in any of the places predicted here! [Snigger]

Posted by Imersge Canfield (# 17431) on :

Thanks for putting me down as oh so wrong - for even having a thought or just wondering.

There was me, never thinking for a moment that I was (single-handedly ?) undermining the incarnation & devaluing the humanity of Jesus himself. The 'shoulds' factor.

Why do those who see themselves as ultra-religious, ultra-in-the-right do this quite so freely ?

Not an attractive trait.

I thank those who have been entering into my crazy question with openness and even humour !

[ 15. December 2012, 21:05: Message edited by: Imersge Canfield ]

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

Ever so slightly OTT?

Posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus (# 2515) on :

It doesn't really matter as long as shit and piss feature in a big way. Nobody should imagine that being born in a stable is hygienic.

Posted by Imersge Canfield (# 17431) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Ever so slightly OTT?

Yes, I'm afraid so. I felt that soon after pressing the button.

Posted by Brother Oscar (# 17227) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Imersge Canfield:

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Ever so slightly OTT?
Yes, I'm afraid so. I felt that soon after pressing the button.

Actually, I'm not so sure. I suspect that there will be extrinsic reasons for your response but re-reading my post in the light of yours I can see that it comes across as dismissive and OTT itself. I suspect that I deserve an asshole award.

I didn't want to dismiss your question, but rather offer what I think may be a more rigorous way of approaching the question, which might also be put: 'How do we understand the birth of Jesus in our context?' Far from undermining the incarnation, I think this kind of question is essential to appreciating it and I'm glad that you've started the thread because I'm interested in people's answers to just this kind of question.

Posted by Imersge Canfield (# 17431) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brother Oscar:

quote:
Originally posted by Imersge Canfield:

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Ever so slightly OTT?
Yes, I'm afraid so. I felt that soon after pressing the button.
Actually, I'm not so sure. I suspect that there will be extrinsic reasons for your response but re-reading my post in the light of yours I can see that it comes across as dismissive and OTT itself. I suspect that I deserve an asshole award.

I didn't want to dismiss your question, but rather offer what I think may be a more rigorous way of approaching the question, which might also be put: 'How do we understand the birth of Jesus in our context?' Far from undermining the incarnation, I think this kind of question is essential to appreciating it and I'm glad that you've started the thread because I'm interested in people's answers to just this kind of question.

Thanks for generous response. Appreciated.
I over reacted, I think.

It will be intersting hearing peoples thoughts as you say; and inspiration..

[ 15. December 2012, 22:57: Message edited by: Imersge Canfield ]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brother Oscar:

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I think a more fruitful exercise would be to meditate on what and where things actually happened: Bethlehem, Judea, the Roman Empire, etc. and why the Lord deemed it to be the Fullness of Time.
The question 'where would Jesus be born today?' is mistaken because it devalues the historical dimension of Jesus' existence.

I think pondering when and where would be the equivalent today is useful for helping understand and relate to the original event. Also pondering how Jesus would live and communicate his values today.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I had thought a garage, but then I remembered that there was a play where Mary gives birth in a bus shelter.

Posted by Imersge Canfield (# 17431) on :

Another creative attempt :

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/12/18/colombia-christmas-gay-nativity-facebook-photo-sparks-catholic-anger/

But their freedom of religious not respected by one outspoken denomination.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Why is it that so many of the Empires of the last few centuries (Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, British, German, American), have been so strongly Christian during the peak of their power?

I don't think that's really true. Europe was probably most strongly Christian during the High Middle Ages / Age of Faith and that was a couple of centuries before the Age of Exploration; and the peak of several of those countries' power came even afterwards during the Enlightenment and 19th and 20th centuries when skepticism and modernity had already to spread in influential corners of society.

quote:
And is it a necessary part of ceasing to control an Empire that the former Imperials should also lose their "strong" Christianity?

Spain and Portugal remained strongly Christian for a long time after losing their influence. Some imperial powers that have lost control weren't Christian to begin with, like Soviet Russia and Imperial Japan.

quote:
Having had the blessing of Rome on their missionary and slaving efforts,...

The Popes condemned slavery a number of times. For example, Pope Paul III in the papal bull "Sublimis Deus" of 1537 and Pope Eugene IV in the bull "Sicut Dudum" of 1435 (dealing with slavery in the Canary Islands).

quote:
Spain lost Imperial power and retreated into sullen RCism, having spent all their wealth on the Wars of the Reformation.

Spain lost power for lots of reasons besides the Wars of the Reformation and I don't think you're familiar with Spanish Catholicism if you think it's "sullen". Spain is home to a bold, vibrant Catholicism which was then grafted onto the New World .

Indeed, I've observed that plenty of Anglicans and Episcopalians avail themselves freely of this "sullen" Spanish Catholicism: the spirituality of St. Teresa of Avila and St. Ignatius Loyola, the poetry of St. John of the Cross, the music of Guerrero, Morales and Victoria, vestments and furnishings for Anglo-Catholic churches, etc. Sometimes even the architecture.

Depiction of sullen Spanish Catholic

Modern example of sullen Spanish Catholicism

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