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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Centring Prayer
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I'd heard before of centring prayer and that it originated with Thomas Keating (who I think was Benedictine) and I always thought it was simply Lectio Divina dressed up in different clothes. I've just watched a dvd of his lecture series on the subject and I can't seem to shake off the notion that it's in fact gnosticism dressed up as something else. It all sounds straight forward enough, and I may have misunderstood him, but he seems to be pointing to a hidden knowledge of mystical Christianity that informs what he calls the upper levels of Christian faith (he points to office prayers, the eucharist etc). I'm a bit uncomfortable with it and I'm left wondering if I have totally missed his points. Does anyone else have experience of knowledge of it?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
I may travel in theologically unsophisticated circles, but I have often heard breath prayers and the like referred to as "centering prayer." If that is a legitimate use of the term, I am hard-pressed to see that as gnosticism (although, in all honesty, I am not particularly appalled by the notion of gnosticism in most contexts. The idea of an inner light hardly seems a problem for anyone except the heirarchical church that wants to keep all the marbles -- a pathology to which I am much more sensitized.)
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by TClune:
quote:
I have often heard breath prayers and the like referred to as "centering prayer."
That's the essence of it, yes. It is a form of contemplative prayer, but quite a lot of what Thomas Keating was saying in the dvd was quite odd in relation to a hidden knowledge. He seemed to differentiate between Christians who lived on a surface world and those who had really, truly got it and moved to the real world of God. The practice I don't have any issue with - it's the goal that seemed slightly odd.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
FC--
You might do better with "The Practice Of The Presence Of God", by Br. Lawrence. He was a wounded French soldier, several centuries ago IIRC, who converted while he was recuperating. He fully expected the Christian life to be grim and awful--and he found it to be just the opposite. He was much sought after as a spiritual director.
I've heard of Keating, though I don't think I've read any of his work. But, IME and IMHO, don't trust anyone who says, "Look at me! I've found The Secret Knowledge (tm), and I'm on a higher plane, neener neener neener!" If they're as spiritually developed as they think they are, they'd probably be more compassionate and humble, and want to get the message out--and not by means of expensive seminars, etc.
Would you be at all open to "mindfulness" and meditation from other traditions? I've found some kinds of Buddhist meditation to be very helpful. You might check out Thich Nhat Hanh's "Peace Is Every Step" and "The Miracle Of Mindfulness". TNH is a Buddhist priest, teacher, peace activist, etc. Martin Luther King, Jr. recommended him for the Nobel Peace prize.
Oh, and TNH doesn't want anyone to convert, and you don't have to call on Buddha to use the techniques. (And TNH likes Jesus very much, too.)
FYI, FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
The Miracle of Mindfulness is a wonderful book. It's one of those 'it changed my life' things that is so clichéd, but it did
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
The term 'centering prayer' may be quite recent but the practice of Christian contemplative prayer has been in the tradition from the earliest times, eg Desert Fathers. Thomas Keating got it out of the Church's attic and dusted it off and refurbished it for general use.
You could try reading Martin Laird 'Into the Silent Land' which is an extremely good account based firmly in Christian belief and practice.
There is no hidden knowledge. Google mindfulness or meditation or contemplative prayer, or the Jesus Prayer and you will find everything there is to know for free. World Community for Christian Meditation
It is not a theology you can learn and understand by reading or listening to lectures. Although these can help us start and guide us along the way. It does not require special training and qualifications.
It is a simple practice that helps us develop our relationship with God. Through it God transforms us. The religious institutions are often suspicious or only pay lip service to it, or try to say it is dangerous, because it is not something that can be controlled institutionally. It is truly a 'hot line' to God.
Because it is experiential our language often breaks down in trying to describe it. And the more words we use more scope for misunderstanding there is.
There are no experts. There are people who do it and people who don't.
Just do it.
[ 19. December 2012, 08:36: Message edited by: Thyme ]
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I don't know of any religious tradition that is suspicious of the Jesus Prayer, or of contemplative prayer in general, and isn't Thomas Keating part of 'the institution'?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
My experience, and that of friends is that many people in the more Protestant churches are very suspicious of it. They are worried it is somehow not Christian, or is self centered, not centered on God or Jesus, or opens the mind to evil spirits and is generally something to be very wary of or discouraged.
I don't know whether it is the official stance, but these ideas are very common amongst ordinary members of congregations.
I think there is more acceptance now than there was 20 or more years ago.
And yes, Thomas Keating is part of an institution as is Martin Laird. I was generalising, perhaps too much.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Ironic that some people should think the Jesus prayer is 'not focused on Jesus'!
There used to be a very hierarchical, elitist and exclusive attitude towards contemplative prayer even as recently as the 1960s. No doubt based on a misunderstanding of the teaching of people like St John of the Cross and others. I have heard it said that contemplation was only for those specially called and privileged with insight, and that the vast majority of ordinary Christians should be content with 'saying prayers' by rote or using the rosary (which in itself is a form of contemplation, but no matter).
I'm sure it is now almost universally recognised that contemplation is a gift available to all, even if some people are temperamentally more inclined to it than others. Certainly there should be no suggestion that those drawn to contemplation need to be more highly educated, or in monastic vows, or 'holier' than anyone else.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I don't know of any religious tradition that is suspicious of the Jesus Prayer, or of contemplative prayer in general, and isn't Thomas Keating part of 'the institution'?
fwiw, when I do the Jesus prayer with my American evangelical students, about 50% love it and are drawn to contemplative spirituality, and the other 50% immediately text their parents that the prof. is forcing them to participate in weird new-age Satanic rituals.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Heh heh heh ... yet I would imagine a significant proportion of that 50% would have little problem if Prof were teaching their offspring to speak unintelligible gooble-de-gook as an indication of being 'filled with the Spirit ...'
Funny that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Heh heh heh ... yet I would imagine a significant proportion of that 50% would have little problem if Prof were teaching their offspring to speak unintelligible gooble-de-gook as an indication of being 'filled with the Spirit ...'
Funny that.
Yep. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Link to the "Jesus prayer" please. Perhaps you mean what I would call the Lord's Prayer?
They seem to call centring prayer here that which gets a small group or committee organized to the tasks at hand with a spiritual overlay.
Several priests talk of "centring prayer"
and then ask us to be still, say clichés like breathe the presence of god, ask for hearts and minds centred on something, and then some silence. It's like a holy pre-meeting agenda review. Not really my fav thing.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by TClune:
quote:
I have often heard breath prayers and the like referred to as "centering prayer."
That's the essence of it, yes. It is a form of contemplative prayer, but quite a lot of what Thomas Keating was saying in the dvd was quite odd in relation to a hidden knowledge. He seemed to differentiate between Christians who lived on a surface world and those who had really, truly got it and moved to the real world of God. The practice I don't have any issue with - it's the goal that seemed slightly odd.
I use Centering Prayer regularly and successfully. To me, there is nothing gnostic about it. In what I have read and heard, Fr Keating goes out of his way to say that he is not describing anything new; simply trying to suggest a new way into the contemplative tradition, a new articulation of it that works for a modern audience. For me, the particular insight of CP is its focus on sideline conscious attention, opening up the whole space of the mind to God, rather on concentrating the mind on anything in particular, even God himself. This has been a revelation to me. It may not be original, and those not attracted to it it may appear exclusive, I suppose, but for me it has been amazing.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Olde Sea Dog
Shipmate
# 13061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Link to the "Jesus prayer" please. Perhaps you mean what I would call the Lord's Prayer?
They seem to call centring prayer here that which gets a small group or committee organized to the tasks at hand with a spiritual overlay.
Several priests talk of "centring prayer"
and then ask us to be still, say clichés like breathe the presence of god, ask for hearts and minds centred on something, and then some silence. It's like a holy pre-meeting agenda review. Not really my fav thing.
The Jesus Prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
Centering prayer or contemplative meditation .... dunno if I understand it quite rightly, but it's sort of like after praying you wait silently, and wait quietly for the answer.
And while waiting, watch the inevitable thoughts chasing each other as fish in the pond of your mind, without any desire to catch them.
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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Posts: 67 | From: The C of Consciousness - California | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Wikipedia gives a lot of information about the Jesus Prayer. What I have read matches what I know from elsewhere but it goes way beyond my expertise to judge how fair it is.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Several priests talk of "centring prayer"
and then ask us to be still, say clichés like breathe the presence of god,
The purpose of any words at this point is to lead you into stillness, into the presence of God where words are redundant. Therefore they do not need to be (indeed, it is counterproductive if they are) elaborately expressed theological profundities. The simpler the better: if they seem like clichés it doesn't really matter.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
Centering Prayer is basically a late 20th century rebranding of the advice given in The Cloud of Unknowing from 14th century England. (The anonymous author of the Cloud is largely influenced by teachings from Pseudo-Dionysius, 5th/6th Century).
The chief movers and shakers in the rebranding as "Centering Prayer" were the Cistercian monks Frs Thomas Keating, Basil Pennington and William Meninger.
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
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deusluxmea
Apprentice
# 15765
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Posted
It is not just Protestants, some Catholics (usually of the ETWN watching variety) get very upset about Centering Prayer. It is apparently quite "dangerous".
Cynthia Bourgeault's book on Centering Prayer is quite good, as is Keating's original book Open Mind, Open Heart.
Posts: 19 | Registered: Jul 2010
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Keromaru
Apprentice
# 15757
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Posted
I've definitely seen fundamentalists insist that contemplative prayer opens you up to demon possession. This includes the transcript of one podcast where the hosts talk about how Mount Athos must be especially evil because of the reports of monks being tormented by demons as they pray.
I've used centering prayer, and I've also used the Jesus Prayer. I like them.
Posts: 26 | From: Diocese of East Tennessee | Registered: Jul 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Several priests talk of "centring prayer"
and then ask us to be still, say clichés like breathe the presence of god,
The purpose of any words at this point is to lead you into stillness, into the presence of God where words are redundant. Therefore they do not need to be (indeed, it is counterproductive if they are) elaborately expressed theological profundities. The simpler the better: if they seem like clichés it doesn't really matter.
As if anyone can lead anyone into the presence of God? I'm far to profane and unholy to get there I guess. I usually sit quietly and hope it ends soon.
Better in my view is a short, concise prayer, preferably with some preparation or even read. Then onward with the tasks on hand.
quote:
Originally posted by Olde Sea Dog:
The Jesus Prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
The Jesus prayer isn't bad for length, but not so good for emphasis among most devout people I know. They are already well aware that they sin and generally suck at life if they try it on their ownsomes.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
no prophet: As I understand it, the Jesus Prayer (the version I've heard is "Jesus, Saviour, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner") is meant to be mentally looped over and over, so that it keeps rolling around in a circle. Therefore it doesn't really end with the last word being "sinner" since the very next word is "Jesus".
I have heard of this as a private devotional practice, not a meeting-starter type of prayer. It wouldn't work very well for that. AIUI the most devoted practitioners of the Jesus Prayer can keep it mentally looping through their day, with the Jesus Prayer in the background, so to speak.
I find your irritation with Centering Prayer very interesting. Certain people seem to be allergic to that kind of silent openness to mystical experience, while others revel in it. There are technical terms for this: kataphatic and apophatic. You seem at this point to be pretty firmly on the kataphatic side: prayer with words and ideas, please. Apophatic prayer is just silent openness to the presence of God.
Neither of them is The One Right Way, AFAIC, though people on the extremes try to convince themselves they have it.
You might consider it a kind of exercise to stretch and try to experience something of value in apophatic prayer. Or not, you know, whatev.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Interesting Leaf. You are correct. The silence doesn't do anything for me and is not liked, unless it is pursued as merely silence as the intention. I do go for silence sometimes, and a presence of God or anything else would frankly be unwelcome. Let me explain further.
Mainly I like music as the focus. I listen to masses and other parts of the ancient hours mostly, preferring settings for voices with minimal accompaniment, usually in Latin, sometimes other languages. I understand the forms, which means even when the language is not known to me, I automatically know where we are.
Often this is at night when I waken, sometimes in distress. Perhaps those of us who are dealing with lives of trauma find undirected silences difficult because they can fill up with unwanted residue from our frangible lives. Thus, I have 2 internet radios, which are probably largely passé as technology now, but there are a host of stations among the 20K or so available (different lists for different radio manufacturers) that broadcast what I talking about. Something real to hang on to, with no easy answers, and no comfort except familiarity of form and knowledge that its been around for, well, can I claim 1500 years? I think of it as 60 generations.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Silence and more reflective styles of prayer can be a bastard and no mistaking it. I find with me that all manner of repressed thoughts and emotions can come out in the silence, repressed thoughts and emotions that I usually cover with other things. I believe that we do things to help ourselves, and this covering up is part of that.
Hell, even in the silence it is possible to hide behind reflections.
Last time I attended a Quaker Meeting (I go extremely rarely) my first thought upon sitting was "Don't make me Minister", I believe in case of what I may reveal about myself, including to myself.
Saying that, I believe that we are conditioned to hide from silence, in fact, from ourselves. We fill ourselves with noise and light (someone once Ministered in Meeting that he believes the use of so many lights in Advent to show people hiding from the darkness). I seem to recall a review of Rowan Williams book about R.S. Thomas, whereby he explains his work as walking across a tightrope above a Kierkegaardian abyss, with God being that tightrope.
I once led a Taize prayer in a college chapel and someone afterwards said they found it "scary", I presume due to the silence, darkness, candles and icons. Certainly, there is opposition to reflection.
I cannot prescribe the Jesus Prayer or silence to anyone, even know I believe them to be good and the latter to be essential. It is at least good to talk about it, instead of having reactions like "we can't do that as people don't like it".
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
My experience, and that of friends is that many people in the more Protestant churches are very suspicious of it. They are worried it is somehow not Christian, or is self centered, not centered on God or Jesus, or opens the mind to evil spirits and is generally something to be very wary of or discouraged.
It is very wrong to equate myticism with gnosticism. Within the Christian tradition, mystical practices are well documented, open to scrutiny, and entirely Christ centred. They aren't about secret knowledge, but are about the unitive knowledge of the soul being "oned" with God, to quote from "The Cloud of Unknowing." Yet it seems that, in the Protestant tradition, there is an instinctive mistrust, which is probably why Protestant mystics are rarer than hen's teeth, wheras that are quite a big part of both Orthodox and Catholic tradition.
The "technique" of both centring prayer and of Fr John Main's "Word into Silence" of the WCCM, are quite similar to that of the "Cloud" and not dissimilar to many Eastern meditation methods, which helped Thomas Merton to come to a deeper understanding of his own faith. Golden Key mentioned Frere Laurent and "The Practice of the Presence of God." To someone like me, who has a disorderly mind, I find this much easier than trying to grasp a technique. One simply resolves to live always conscioulsy in God's presence. It isn't easy in a busy world, but it's certainly simple.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
...which is probably why Protestant mystics are rarer than hen's teeth...
Read some stuff from the Puritan and Reformed traditions.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Silence and more reflective styles of prayer can be a bastard and no mistaking it. I find with me that all manner of repressed thoughts and emotions can come out in the silence, repressed thoughts and emotions that I usually cover with other things. I believe that we do things to help ourselves, and this covering up is part of that.
Hell, even in the silence it is possible to hide behind reflections.
...
Saying that, I believe that we are conditioned to hide from silence, in fact, from ourselves.
I totally agree with you on these points. Contemplative prayer can indeed can open you up to repressed thoughts and emotions. This is what used to be known as "struggling with demons". Guided retreats (I haven't been on one) do seem to be quite helpful, but on a day to day basis when you're trying to incorporate some element of this into daily life, you will at some point probably have to do a bit of wrestling unaided.
And I completely agree we seem to be conditioned to avoid silence. I've certainly noticed that - more so than ever now with the prevalence of mobile phones and iPods which are over-abundant evidence of that. Nobody ever has to be "alone" again or face "silence" again.
Silence makes most people nervous. Understandably, given what may come up. It's entirely possible to spend a lifetime without ever looking too closely, but "know thyself" is a very old and worthwhile adage. And bringing these things out of the realm of the subconscious into the daylight does help ultimately, when they can be seen for what they are.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Read some stuff from the Puritan and Reformed traditions.
I'll make an exception of William Law!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deusluxmea:
It is not just Protestants, some Catholics (usually of the ETWN watching variety) get very upset about Centering Prayer. It is apparently quite "dangerous".
The reason is because in some circles it has become associated with New Age stuff. Some of the people who promote centering prayer also engage in stuff like the Enneagram and Reiki. This has tarnished centering prayer's reputation among those Catholics.
I tried centering prayer for a while but that didn't last very long. I'm not sure what I think about it now. I found it helpful for recollection but beyond that I'm not sure. I do think that if you haven't been working on leading a virtuous life (and availing yourself of the sacraments, etc., etc.) then you probably shouldn't try centering prayer yet because that's like putting the cart before the horse.
I have a book by Thomas Keating somewhere. Maybe this thread will motivate me to read it.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I don't know of any religious tradition that is suspicious of the Jesus Prayer, or of contemplative prayer in general, and isn't Thomas Keating part of 'the institution'?
This web page gives a conservative set of reasons why Keating et al are 'bad'.
I think that conservatives are critical because they don't fully understand the movement and liberals are too uncritical. The truth probably lies in between.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Kallistos Ware also wrote a book on the Jesus Prayer, called The Power of the Name. He stresses - and I don't think it can be stressed too strongly - that the Prayer is not a mantra. It is a cry for mercy from a heart convicted of sin. For as long as you desire mercy, repeat the Prayer; but if you don't, then stop.
I don't think prayer should ever be regarded in terms of a "technique", a means to achieving this or that spiritual or mental state. God doesn't need such things. He is at hand: talk with him.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Re Christians who are suspicious of centring prayer etc: I am quite disappointed that the same (SDA) denominational publisher who published my last book recently released a gem called The Dangers of Contemplative Prayer. I haven't read it so can't critique it, but just the title makes me sad.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The Jesus prayer isn't bad for length, but not so good for emphasis among most devout people I know. They are already well aware that they sin and generally suck at life if they try it on their ownsomes.
I personally find it too long and have distilled it into "Christ have mercy." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'm a beginner at all this but have just started reading Thomas Keating's book, "Open Mind, Open Heart." In the introduction he says, "Contemplative prayer is a process of interior transformation, a conversation initiated by God and leading, if we consent, to divine union. One's way of seeing reality changes in this process." I can't see how it would open one to demon possession if we're reaching for God - what father would give his son a stone if he asks for bread? It is the change in how we see reality that interests me. John O'Donohue said that "Mind altering alters all" - that if we see things differently, change happens. I certainly need to change but I believe the idea is that we don't need to strive for it... with a change in perspective, it happens naturally.
The Thomas Keating book I've just got is three of his books in one volume. I've got to page 9.
Nen - who may be some time...
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I can't see how it would open one to demon possession if we're reaching for God - what father would give his son a stone if he asks for bread?
I think what they mean are the well-known side-effects of distraction and of other things coming to the fore.
Everybody's journey is different, but you can find you're up against your own self and the less pleasant aspects of your own character start to surface. You can even find yourself actively resisting any attempt to get down to any effort to contemplative thinking regularly. "Of course I will, but I'm tired right now/there's this great film on the telly I don't want to miss" or "Stuff it, I'm not in the mood and I don't have to do it if I don't want to."
The ego, and the demands of the ego, can be very strong. In a previous era, and I guess in this one too by the sound of it, it's easy to see how this kind of thing can be seen as demons trying to drag you away from prayer.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
You would be open to demon possession as it is the word, usually in the form of the KJV, that is powerful, thus silence which is the opposite of the word, is dangerous.
I don't think this is logical but I've come across people who hold this view.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
As a young Christian, I read several books such as What's On Your Mind by Merlin Carrothers (sp?), which quoted the principle that nature abhors a vaccum, so therefore Eastern-style meditation would allow evil spirits to come in and fill the empty space. Being young and impressionable, I believed this and used to worry if I let my mind go blank unintentionally.
Ironically, twenty years later, I've started to use Mindfulness meditation as a secular practice and found it very helpful.
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Some time after starting to attend Friends' Metting for Worship, which I found like "coming home", I went to an Open University Summer School where it was announced that there would be a prayer meeting each day before breakfast. I didn't know what to expect, but thought it was a good idea. It was surprisingly like Meeting, with people contributing as they were moved to, except for one thing. The leader filled all the gaps by reciting "We praise Thee and bless Thee, O Lord" continuously. I found this got in the way. It was worse than ordinary church services before I migrated where the priest would say there would be a few minutes for our own prayers, which minutes transpired to be nanominutes.
(As the week went on and I found the leader was a geology tutor and a creationist, that got in the way as well, but it was mostly the absence of silence.)
Currently I have to deal with tinnitus. I have to train myself not to be constantly irritated by it.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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