Thread: Another school shooting Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
There's been another fucking school shooting in America. USA Today How long will it take before they realise that if you make guns available people get shot. Children as young as five too.

Bastard gun control laws.
 

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Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
The counter gun control argument comes down to "then only criminals will have guns". Seems to me we'd have quite a lot fewer shootings then.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Clearly Connecticut needs to start arming its schoolchildren. If those fourth-graders had been armed, they could have protected themselves.
 

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Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
And already the "not the time to discuss" statements are being issued. If not now, when? Obviously never.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
The bulletheads claim it's not the fault of the guns or the good, decent, Christian gun-owners, but the crazies. But they fight tooth and nail against laws like background checks which could help to keep guns out of the hands of the crazies. Giving lie to the sincerity of this and every other argument they make.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
It's ten years since the film 'Bowling for Columbine'.

No lessons have been learned.

None.


 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
And already the "not the time to discuss" statements are being issued. If not now, when? Obviously never.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Horrible, heartbreaking. From reports over here, sounds like another heavily armed "lone nut".

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Originally posted by George Spigot:
Naw the scape goats probably going to be violent computers games again. The fact that this turned out to be a lie last time didn't stop them reporting thus.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
It's ten years since the film 'Bowling for Columbine'.

No lessons have been learned.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

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Fuck the assertion that the answer to gun violence is to arm everyone. All this would have done is double the casualty count. The shooter still would have had the element of surprise. Arming teachers would have introduced a continual danger that a teacher's gun would be misused by kids.

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No one made that assertion. I said arm properly trained individuals such as some teachers and other personnel. My wife was a teacher. I'd rather her have the ability to defend herself then have to wait for cops. But cops must be bad, too, since they carry guns and the gun is the problem.
 

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Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :
 
I can't bear to look at the pictures of the parents hugging their children and taking them home, knowing that there are those who won't get to do that.

Is the freedom to own assault weapons really worth the sacrifice of these lives? Yes, the gunman is to blame, but someone made the guns, someone sold them to him, someone sold him the ammo -- they are all complicit. Yes, knives and cars can also cause death, but their primary purposes are not lethal. The primary purpose for assault weapons is to kill people.
 

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Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 

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No one made that assertion. I said arm properly trained individuals such as some teachers and other personnel.

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quote:

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My wife was a teacher. I'd rather her have the ability to defend herself then have to wait for cops. But cops must be bad, too, since they carry guns and the gun is the problem.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:

quote:

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No one made that assertion. I said arm properly trained individuals such as some teachers and other personnel.

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Which in most cases wouldn't make a difference. Unless the teacher has a gun in his/her hand ready to shoot, someone who walks into a school would have had the element of surprise.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

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Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Inanna:
Singer-songwriter Cheryl Wheeler says it better than I could.

The Second Amendment right movement/NRA is one of the many things that I am still struggling to understand about America.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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Civilized nations manage. Someday perhaps the US will join them. Not that I'm holding my breath.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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Would you care to accept the possession of nuclear weapons by Iran, North Korea, Israel, Palestine and whoever is in charge in Somalia this week? All nations have the right to defend themselves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:

quote:

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Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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And only someone with shit for brains thinks that making it more difficult won't reduce the likelihood of people resorting to gun violence, idiot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I understand it on the basis that had the ordinary citizens been armed 250 years ago there would never have been an independent America. But that was then and this is now.

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Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
It's ten years since the film 'Bowling for Columbine'.

No lessons have been learned.

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That's because it was made by a Goddamn Commie.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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Civilized nations manage. Someday perhaps the US will join them. Not that I'm holding my breath.

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No matter where you are you can get one if you really want it just like booze and dope.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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You don't get it. Someone flips and loses it - a gun is handy, they use it. If there is no handy gun they won't, they'll use something far less damaging. These people are not in their right mind. It isn't a case of 'really wanting' a gun.

Guns shouldn't be available except to the police and the military. And not to the police as routine.

Sport guns should be kept on site and under lock and key.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Only a wishful thinking douchebag thinks these deranged mass killers give a flying piece of decroded crap about any law you can come up with and let it stand in the way of their getting what they need to pull off their wicked scheme.

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Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
Forgive me if I am wrong but doesn't the Second Amendment say a 'well-regulated militia' rather than every Tom, Dick and Harry?

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I have six or seven guns and will not be giving them up.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I have six or seven guns and will not be giving them up.

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Lets just hope you remain in sound mind then.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I have six or seven guns and will not be giving them up.

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Originally posted by Lothiriel:
You really need to educate yourself. You seem to have some free time at the moment to defend your ill-informed views on gun availability,

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so maybe have a hunt 'round the ol' internet and you might find little gems of knowledge like this: look at chart 4 and then tell us whether gun control has an effect on gun violence. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I always appreciate it when someone is upfront about being a boorish, condescending jerk.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

I will make a note to myself to try to find some information about how much of our gun murders are related to the drug trade and/or happen at the finger of someone raised in a broken home.

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
And only someone with their head up their ass can't realize that if the law makes it more difficult to get their hand on a gun in the first place when these people do snap it will be more difficult to use a gun to act out.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
President Obama has said "There have been too many of these incidents in recent years: We are going to have to come together and take meaningful action to stop more incidents like these, regardless of the politics."

Let's hope he's serious.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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States with tighter gun laws have fewer gun-related deaths, you asshole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
And only someone with their head up their ass can't realize that if the law makes it more difficult to get their hand on a gun in the first place when these people do snap it will be more difficult to use a gun to act out.

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Since they can still get them "more difficult" really doesn't matter. It's like to put things a little bit higher so my cat can't get to them. He still does.

You asshole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
You can look around the internet and find what you want. Take this New York Times article, for example.

An excerpt:

According to the study, published last year in The Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, European nations with more guns had lower murder rates. As summarized in a brief filed by several criminologists and other scholars supporting the challenge to the Washington law, the seven nations with the most guns per capita had 1.2 murders annually for every 100,000 people. The rate in the nine nations with the fewest guns was 4.4.

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quote:

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Justice Breyer was skeptical about what these comparisons proved. “Which is the cause and which the effect?” he asked. “The proposition that strict gun laws cause crime is harder to accept than the proposition that strict gun laws in part grow out of the fact that a nation already has a higher crime rate.”

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
You can look around the internet and find what you want. Take this New York Times article, for example.

An excerpt:

According to the study, published last year in The Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, European nations with more guns had lower murder rates. As summarized in a brief filed by several criminologists and other scholars supporting the challenge to the Washington law, the seven nations with the most guns per capita had 1.2 murders annually for every 100,000 people. The rate in the nine nations with the fewest guns was 4.4.

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Countries with higher rates of gun ownership had higher rates of gun-related suicides and homicides than those with fewer.

List of Countries by Firearm-related Death rates

Compare Switzerland with 6.4 gun related deaths per 100,000 with Sweden (1.22), the UK (0.22) or Japan (0.09).

(Reducing guns reduces shootings - quelle surprise!)
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
Given the response of many gun-owners to these types of incident is about as predictable as night following day , President Obama will need to display exceptional leadership if he's to make any progress on US gun control.



[ 14. December 2012, 20:12: Message edited by: rolyn ]
 

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Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 
Jesus.

20 little kids 10 years of age or younger.

Can we pass a law that forces NRA members to actually view the faces of the parents and kids exiting Sandy Hook Elementary before they *cough* object to restricting automatic and semi-automatic weapons to active police and active military personnel?*

*Which means, no, you don't get to hang on to your fucking weapon after you did your patriotic duty in Iraq and/or Afghanistan or even downtown Detroit or Chicago, no matter how many fucking medals you fucking won in our fucking wars and ganglands which are fucking up even more of our young male citizens.

And yes, I DO thank these folks for their service, but for fuck's sake, can we please return the favor by giving them the fucking services they need when they are restored to what passes for fucking normal society stateside?

Or is Sandy Hook now the new normal?

IT IS FUCKING TIME WE ENACTED SOME KIND OF FUCKING RATIONAL GUN CONTROL IN THIS SO-CALLED FUCKING COUNTRY.
 

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Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

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quote:

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A few years ago the right-wingers on the SCOTUS decided that "well-regulated militia" is a synonym for "any nut who wants to pack heat."

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Originally posted by RuthW:
What we think is that non-deranged people can and should make sure deranged people don't obtain guns.

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
And only someone with their head up their ass can't realize that if the law makes it more difficult to get their hand on a gun in the first place when these people do snap it will be more difficult to use a gun to act out.

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Since they can still get them "more difficult" really doesn't matter. It's like to put things a little bit higher so my cat can't get to them. He still does.

You asshole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Organ Builder:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

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Apparently that wouldn't have made much of a difference, since we are now hearing that the shooter was wearing body armor--just like the shooter in Aurora.

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Originally posted by shamwari:
Whats with the Americans and their guns?

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Only a fucking moron thinks they can keep guns out of the hands of someone who really wants one, you asshole.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I have six or seven guns and will not be giving them up.

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Lets just hope you remain in sound mind then.

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Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
And FWIW, I'm mostly ticked off with the shooter and all shooters who have to fucking die before anyone has a chance to at the very fucking least ask them what the fuck is going on in their fucking heads.

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"If only it were as easy to get mental health care as, oh, say, guns." --Andy Borowitz
 

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Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :
 
I keep thinking about the parents with presents already bought and wrapped. I'm going to need a lot to drink to get to sleep tonight.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
And only someone with their head up their ass can't realize that if the law makes it more difficult to get their hand on a gun in the first place when these people do snap it will be more difficult to use a gun to act out.

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Since they can still get them "more difficult" really doesn't matter. It's like to put things a little bit higher so my cat can't get to them. He still does.

You asshole.

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Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
We can keep striving to contain the nutter, but stopping them all is simply never going to happen.

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So we can't stop them all. What if we could stop 1 in 3? Shouldn't we try?
 

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Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :
 
shamwow, were I on the side of gun control in this thread, I would heartily wish you were off my team. Nice go at taking an impassioned all out fight and turning it into a pond war.

Just in case you are not a clueless twinky I would like to point out that many Americans (including myself) are heartbroken by this murder and would like to seek a workable solution to the problem.

Mere Nick, were I on the side of gun freedom on this thread I would heartily want you off my team. Many rational people tend to ignore even cogent points when the last phrase involves the f word.

The sad fact is the NRA takes extreme positions and heavily funds politicians willing to take their money in exchange for advocating extreme gun policies and laws. They seem to have wholesale purchased the Tennessee House for instance.

The Second Amendment says what it says (well armed militia) and that phrase has been interpreted by SCOTUS to mean everyone. There is no appeal from them, BTW.

Belonging to a gun group (long story - don't like most of them - it was a favor for a friend) I have seen some extreme positions endorsed that make me queasy. It appears that the extreme tail is wagging the dog of many pro gun groups.

I can only pray right now.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I've been called to Hell for teasing Americans. I apologise for having done so. Today I'm in no mood to joke or tease.



When I read Mere Nick's posts, though, I realise how far that wonderful country has to go to rid itself of the gung-ho gun obsession that makes incidents like this more likely.

Sure, it's the nutters and the crazies who do the shooting and the vast majority of US gun-owners are responsible and far from crazy.

But c'mon ... I read the other day that there are 37,000 gun-related homicides in the US every year. 37,000!

There are probably no more than 20 in any average year in the UK. We're not perfect, we've had our Dunblane massacre, Hungerford and Cumbria - where the killer used legal shot-guns rather than illegal handguns or assault weapons.

But at least we don't an NRA to contend with and jerks who think that the right to tote guns and pack heat is somehow an almost sacred duty.

Heck, I was even once accused of being a negligent husband and parent by a US Shipmate on one occasion because I told him that I don't own guns nor would ever wish to. The jerk didn't even realise that it is illegal to own handguns and assault weapons in the UK.

If that's lack of freedom, give me lack of freedom.
 

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Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :
 
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
The Second Amendment says what it says (well armed militia)

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No it doesn't. It says WELL-REGULATED militia.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
for those murdered children and their families

for all the surviving children and their families who will be terrified tonight.

Forgive me for being so All Saintish in Hell, but this is the first thread I've been on since hearing the news, and I'm struggling to understand it.

Moving slowly Hellwards, and getting Purgatorial. Often when gun control is debated on these boards, I get the feeling that some Americans distrust national government so much that they feel they need weapons to defend themselves against Washington. Is there a significant movement in any state to break away and become independent?
 

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Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
In Australia we had our first shooting massacre in 1996. This led to the conservative government implementing a gun buy back policy which halved the number of households who owned guns and reduced gun stocks by about 1/5.

This article concludes that

quote:

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We find that the buyback led to a drop in the firearm suicide rates of almost 80%, with no significant effect on non- firearm death rates. The effect on firearm homicides is of similar magnitude but is less precise. The results are robust to a variety of specification checks and to instru- menting the state-level buyback rate

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quote:

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Originally posted by shamwari:
Whats with the Americans and their guns?

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
The Second Amendment says what it says (well armed militia)

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No it doesn't. It says WELL-REGULATED militia.

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True.

My bad.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
BessHiggs, I can sympathise, but you can do more than that. You can pray and hug your neices and nephews and nearest and dearest - but you can also add your voice to the voices of sanity.

It suits the right-wing US gun lobby to portray anyone seeking to tighten gun laws as politically correct and out-of-touch liberals. They have a vested interest in doing so.

My guess would be that they would be more open to persuasion and to listen to reason if there were voices in their own midst - or coming from what people in Europe and in the north-eastern States and Pacific seaboard might regard as rural or more 'red-neck' states.

The problem, it appears to me, is that the whole thing has been polarised along political lines and fault-lines that may not have adequately healed from Civil War days.

Australia has reduced gun crime, the UK has done so. Surely it can't be beyond the wit of man for an advanced and civilised country like the US to do the same?

The problem is, the genie is already out of the bottle. Any federal attempt to put the lid back on is going to be regarded with the utmost suspicion in some quarters - heck, I've even seen Shippies here state that they need their guns just in case the Federal Gummint comes after them ...



That appears very, very strange from a UK perspective - and we have our own regional issues and calls for greater devolution (or independence in Scotland's case) at the same time as some people are squawking about the EU and its interference and so on ...

I suspect it is difficult - if not well-nigh impossible - for those of us who don't live in the US to understand the complexities. I can tease you guys at times - I'm not doing so now - but I recognise that the last thing you need is some finger-wagging and patronising long-distance comment from places which don't have the same kind of background or 'relationship' with firearms as is evidently the case in the US - or parts of it.

The problem is, anything that Obama attempts will be construed as Federal interference - even if he were able to come up with a sensible solution that the rest of us would think was a good idea.

It's a Catch-22.

But you've got to keep trying. Otherwise we'll be having this same debate in several weeks, months or years time.
 

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Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 
Evidently the shooter, Adam Lanza, used his mother's legally purchased guns. He walked into her classroom, opened fire on her first and then killed the kids.

[ 14. December 2012, 22:50: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
 

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
Fuck you, Mere Nick -- devil incarnate as you are named. Fuck you and fuck America.
 

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Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Fuck you, Mere Nick -- devil incarnate as you are named. Fuck you and fuck America.

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The knee-jerk reactions and pure vitriol on both sides of this issue do nothing towards any kind of reasonable, workable solution to the obvious problems we have in this country regarding gun violence.

all I can do is cry, pray and hug my nephews and niece extra tight...

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quote:

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Gun Deaths a Familiar American Experience
A study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery found that the gun murder rate in the U.S. is almost 20 times higher than the next 22 richest and most populous nations combined.

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Gun control is a parenting issue
More than a dozen children went to elementary school this morning and were dead before lunch.

White House spokesman Jay Carney says today is not the day to talk about gun control.

I disagree. That's all we should talk about today.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josephine:
I have no problem with guns. I have no problem with shooting at clay pigeons, or real rabbits or deer. I have no problem with farmers and ranchers who need a gun to keep predators away from their flocks and herds.

But there is absolutely no reason for a civilian to have a large capacity magazine. There is no reason for a civilian to have an automatic or semi-automatic gun. They should be banned yesterday, if not sooner.

I am undecided about whether the reasons for a civilian to have handguns are good enough to justify allowing civilians to have handguns. If we are going to allow them, they should be regulated at least as stringently as cars and driving are regulated.

The status quo is utterly unacceptable. It is time to talk about this. It is time to change it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Fuck you, Mere Nick -- devil incarnate as you are named. Fuck you and fuck America.

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Easy, there. I'm American, and I'm 180 degrees around the circle from Shmear Dick.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

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Fuck the assertion that the answer to gun violence is to arm everyone. All this would have done is double the casualty count. The shooter still would have had the element of surprise. Arming teachers would have introduced a continual danger that a teacher's gun would be misused by kids.

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Or misused by a teacher. I've had some violent ones--ranging from throwing chairs and other things, to slamming kids up against the wall in the hallway, to hitting kids. These were teachers whose "normal" state was unbalanced. If they'd had immediate access to guns...


No one in a school should have guns, with the possible exception of guards. (Kids might grab their guns.)




From what Pres. Obama said today, he's fed up and wants to do something to help prevent future shootings. Given that he doesn't have to worry about any more elections, he just might do some serious work on this--and the NRA be damned. (Unless, of course, the NRA powers that be rustle up enough sense to work WITH the president on sensible gun control. Like banning automatic weapons. I don't know what was used in this shooting; but the guy who shot up the Clackamas mall stole a semi-automatic from a friend. No civilian needs automatic weapons.)
 

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
Mere Nick, has the irony of you celebrating your wife’s 30 years as a teacher missed you completely?

Some people will be mourning their teacher husbands and wives today whilst you are celebrating.

Those teachers are dead and they leave widows and widowers behind, not to celebrate, but to bury them and mourn them. They are dead because of you and people who hold the same opinions as you.

You have made the point that guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

Correct, but they are using guns to do the killing Nick. They are very effective, cheap and reliable. That's why they are using them Nick. Because they do the killing very, very well.

How many more teachers will have to die instead of celebrating 30 years Nick?

What thoughts will be going through your head when you look at your gun next time?

Will you be thinking of how your wife has just celebrated 30 years of teaching?
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Pro-gun-control peeps, be sure you differentiate between automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Don't give the gun nuts a weapon (so to speak) to flay you with in their arguments. What we are talking about are semi-automatic weapons; automatic weapons are illegal. To avoid obnoxious tangents, say "semi-automatic."

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Or misused by a teacher. I've had some violent ones--ranging from throwing chairs and other things, to slamming kids up against the wall in the hallway, to hitting kids.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
They are dead because of you and people who hold the same opinions as you.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I think maybe *some* of the public comments about "today is not the day to discuss gun control" are meant to let the people affected deal with the immediate situation; then the country can deal with the gun issue.

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quote:

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I think maybe *some* of the public comments about "today is not the day to discuss gun control" are meant to let the people affected deal with the immediate situation; then the country can deal with the gun issue.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's a shame that it is against the law for trained teachers and other school personnel to be armed and that the children are left as sitting ducks.

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quote:

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Originally posted by roybart:

quote:

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The knee-jerk reactions and pure vitriol on both sides of this issue do nothing towards any kind of reasonable, workable solution to the obvious problems we have in this country regarding gun violence.

all I can do is cry, pray and hug my nephews and niece extra tight...

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Sorry, but this kind of response has begun to make me almost as angry as a press-release from my fellow citizens who run the NRA.

One often hears such from the self-proclaimed sensible gun-owners. After every tragedy, numerous communications saying pretty much the same thing turn up in the media.

Most of them, like the writer, make a big point of distancing themselves from "knee-jerk reactions and pure vitriol" on both sides. They are careful to position themselves on what they imply is the middle ground, along with all the other good folks who understand their guns, respect their potential for harm, lock them up, always have licenses, and who use them primarily for hunting, often as part of a generations-long family tradition.

When a tragedy occurs they tut-tut and pray for the victims, urging (as here) "reasonable, workable" solutions. Somehow, however, they never manage to turn this pious hope into something -- a campaign, a movement, a political pressure group -- that actually gets anything done. In other words, once these people -- and there are many of them -- perform their ritual, they fade away until the next time.

P.S. I'd love to be given evidence that suggests that I am wrong in this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
Fuck that craziness, and fuck you for perpetuating it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BessHiggs:
In other words, once these people -- and there are many of them -- perform their ritual, they fade away until the next time.

---

quote:

---

You don't like that. Well, dear, I don't like the fact that you seem to have enough red blood cells to keep yourself alive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Inanna:

The Second Amendment right movement/NRA is one of the many things that I am still struggling to understand about America.

---

I understand it on the basis that had the ordinary citizens been armed 250 years ago there would never have been an independent America. But that was then and this is now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I have six or seven guns and will not be giving them up.

---

You've lost count? There's responsible gun ownership for you.

The bottom line is that you and those like you are willing to sacrifice other people's children (and possibly your own) for a puerile fantasy of omnipotence. I'm sure you believe that if only you had been at Sandy Hook with your piece, you would have prevented the whole thing. The fact that no such scenario has ever played out that way doesn't figure into your fantasy of going all Chuck Norris on some mass murderer's ass. There has never been (as far as I know) a mass shooting where an armed civilian intervened successfully, or even made a serious attempt, and Colorado, Arizona, and Oregon all have quite lenient concealed carry laws. I'm sure there were some among the 10,000 people at Clackamas Town Center the other day who were armed. It made no difference.

The Second Amendment may have made some sense in 1789--not now. It's time to scrap it. It's no longer, if it ever was, a civil right, i.e., a right necessary to the exercise of citizenship. And the NRA is just a lobby for criminals, gun manufacturers, and right wing kooks like Nick.
 

---

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted [in response to Mere Nick] by orfeo:
... Do you put locks on your doors?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The bottom line is that you and those like you are willing to sacrifice other people's children (and possibly your own) for a puerile fantasy of omnipotence.

---

quote:

---

I'm sure you believe that if only you had been at Sandy Hook with your piece, you would have prevented the whole thing.

---

quote:

---

The fact that no such scenario has ever played out that way doesn't figure into your fantasy of going all Chuck Norris on some mass murderer's ass. There has never been (as far as I know) a mass shooting where an armed civilian intervened successfully, or even made a serious attempt, and Colorado, Arizona, and Oregon all have quite lenient concealed carry laws. I'm sure there were some among the 10,000 people at Clackamas Town Center the other day who were armed. It made no difference.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by piglet:

quote:

---

Originally posted [in response to Mere Nick] by orfeo:
[qb] ... Do you put locks on your doors?

---

Mere Nick doesn't need to. He's got six (or maybe seven) guns ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
The bottom line is that you and those like you are willing to sacrifice other people's children (and possibly your own) for a puerile fantasy of omnipotence.

---

The bottom line is you are wrong. I've no interest in sacrificing any children and consider it a fantasy that you can stop someone hell bent on killing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:

The evidence appears to be strong that the death rates from gunshot murder are very significantly lower in other Western democracies than in the US.

---

quote:

---

Which implies, not that death rates or mass-killings would disappear if the right to bear arms was severely restricted. Rather that the incidence of such deaths would be very significantly reduced.

---

quote:

---

Shorn of the rhetoric and the fury, this is the reason many of us outside the US have for believing the US would be wise to restrict the right to bear arms. What flaws do you see in that argument?

---

quote:

---

Would you, and any other Shipmates who share your view, be prepared to debate them in Purgatory.

---

quote:

---

Or is it a closed issue for you? One on which debate around evidence is unlikely to change your mind?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by piglet:

quote:

---

Originally posted [in response to Mere Nick] by orfeo:
[qb] ... Do you put locks on your doors?

---

Mere Nick doesn't need to. He's got six (or maybe seven) guns ...

---

But I haven't ever fired any of them and what little ammo I have has probably gone bad. Some of them would be pretty good for clanging someone over the head, though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[QB] Mere Nick,

Mass shootings are a smoke screen. Many more people die in single shootings than all the mass shootings combined.

---

quote:

---

The UK has a higher percentage of violent crime than the US, but the US has a higher intentional homicide rate. What do you think is the reason for this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
what is the point? do you decorate with them?

---

quote:

---

what if some dumbfuck kid steals your decorative little toys

---

quote:

---

and blows their own head off trying to kill a stop sign somewhere?

it's bloody irresponsible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When you look at our homicide rate it is already going down without such a restriction.

---

quote:

---

Friday, 14 December 2012
Prayer for Newtown, Connecticut, December 14

“But wherefore could I not pronounce Amen?”
—Macbeth

God of liberty, we give you thanks for the many freedoms that we enjoy by your blessing.

For the freedom to express ourselves, we give you thanks!
For the freedom to satisfy our urges and impulses, we give you thanks!
For freedom of trade, especially the freedom to buy and sell weapons and ammunition at competitive prices, we give you thanks!
For the freedom to bear arms, we give you thanks!

---

[quote drastically truncated to avoid copyright infringement. Follow the link for the full thing. are you fucking high? -comet, Hellhost]

[ 15. December 2012, 09:05: Message edited by: comet ]
 

---

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
[QUOTE] There has never been (as far as I know) a mass shooting where an armed civilian intervened successfully, or even made a serious attempt, and Colorado, Arizona, and Oregon all have quite lenient concealed carry laws. I'm sure there were some among the 10,000 people at Clackamas Town Center the other day who were armed. It made no difference.

---

It isn't a fact.

Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooting in a Colorado church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooter at Pearl High School.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Someone with a gun stopped a mass shooter at a Parker Middle school dance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
People with guns probably stopped a mass shooter at the Appalachian School of Law.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
An armed citizen stopped a shooter in Oklahoma City.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The relatively strict gun laws in Europe didn't stop the school shootings in Germany, the UK, or the recent massive slaughter in Norway, either.

I don't believe any law has kept you or me from being murdered. What's kept us from being murdered is that no one has committed themself to doing it. If someone does commit themselves to doing it, he won't care what the law says. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Treading gently into a clearly emotive subject and possibly with a high degree of ignorance about US gun laws that you will hopefully pardon if I show a high degree of ignorance.....

---

quote:

---

From what I've gleaned from this thread, the gun laws throughout the states seem to be lax in that you don't have a system whereby you must:
1. Have a licence that is only issued after a police check and a doctor's report and is renewable annually.

---

quote:

---

2. There are restrictions on the types of guns you can own

---

quote:

---

3. You must have suitable locks on the guns and suitable gun lockers for said guns

---

quote:

---

4. The right for the police to check the guns, their locks and the lockers at any time and have right to enter your property to do so.

---

quote:

---

5. The licence must provide a listing to the police or some other official body as to exactly what you own (in terms of how many guns and what types).

---

quote:

---

6. There is a restriction on how many guns you may own and how much ammo you may store.

---

quote:

---

Now I know that some of these 'conditions' might be very hotly debated and maybe they are already in place to a degree. But I've heard people say on this thread that there appears to be no background checks. A genuine question - what is the problem with having a background check done?

---

Because then the gun shows wouldn't sell as many guns because of the waiting period to have the background check completed. It's a case of my right to make money is more important than your right of personal safety or the ability to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Mere Nick, are you seriously suggesting that the number/proportion of gun-related deaths in other Western democracies is as high as it is in the US?

I can't verify the figure, but I read the other day that there were 37,000 gun related deaths in the US last year.



Few of them will have been mass shootings.

In the UK there are around 20-25 gun related deaths a year on average - although the homicide rate from knives and other weapons is much higher than that. I've also read that the per capita US homicide rate is 12-times greater than ours.

I think it has been fairly reasonably established that the US homicide rate (and it is concentrated on particular urban areas with particular problems) is around 8-12 times higher than it is in Western Europe.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 

quote:

---

[quote drastically truncated to avoid copyright infringement. Follow the link for the full thing. are you fucking high? -comet, Hellhost]

---

But I linked. How is that a copyright infringement?
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Mamacita - God bless your daughter, and the children she cares for. FWIW I think she's a hero too.
 

---

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
posted by Pat:

quote:

---

Because then the gun shows wouldn't sell as many guns because of the waiting period to have the background check completed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

---

[quote drastically truncated to avoid copyright infringement. Follow the link for the full thing. are you fucking high? -comet, Hellhost]

---

But I linked. How is that a copyright infringement?

---

quote:

---

I am about to post a response to this that is really rather unlike me.

that response is FUCK YOU, YOU SANCTIMONIOUS ASSMUNCH!

Your response to my post is EXACTLY the kind of BS I was referring to. Yep, I'm an evil gun owner. You don't like that. Well, dear, I don't like the fact that you seem to have enough red blood cells to keep yourself alive. My getting pissed at you and others like you, just as your getting pissed at me and those like me solves nothing. To assume that my post was nothing more than a rote ritual, performed after every gun related tragedy, is arrogant pig swill. To paint every single person who owns and uses firearms with the same brush as the lunatic in the news today is no different than deciding that every Muslim is a fundamentalist terrorist. Just because rational, responsible gun-owners don't make the news doesn't mean we aren't working towards reforms in our system. We write letter, we talk to our elected officials, we teach classes in gun safety, we try to change things so that shit like today's tragedy don't happen. We just happen to think that the abolishment of all firearms is NOT the solution. You don't like that, fine. That's your right. Just don't presume that you know the hearts and minds of a great many of your fellow citizens. Because, clearly you do not.

---

quote:

---

and now, I've added my own vitriol to the conversation. Happy now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Pat:

quote:

---

Because then the gun shows wouldn't sell as many guns because of the waiting period to have the background check completed.

---

That seems a bit of strange argument though. There are car shows and they still sell plenty of them, but presumably you have to have it taxed and insured (and hold a licence) before you can drive away in it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
An excellent post, Tortuf. Thank you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
The difference is that we have laws to keep guns off the streets, and shootings in our country are much lower than yours. I believe your country needs tighter gun controls.

Are your rights to own and carry arms more important than the right of 20 five to ten year old children to live?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
[QB] Mere Nick, are you seriously suggesting that the number/proportion of gun-related deaths in other Western democracies is as high as it is in the US?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
You didn't answer comet's question Mere Nick - what if someone takes your guns and uses them in a shooting spree?

The person in this case took his mother's guns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
We have extensive drug laws to keep drugs away from people. They work as well as prohibition did and as well as tighter gun controls will.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
When I hear calls for tighter gun control laws, or especially disarming all but the government, what I'm being told is that turning the gun trade over to those who sell illegal drugs will reduce gun violence. I don't believe it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The same arguments I'm hearing from the tighter gun control crowd sounds identical to those who equate drug law reformation to advocating that marijuana and other currently illegal drugs be openly available to children just like those gunned down yesterday.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The reason we have more guns than you do is because we want more guns than you do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
[QB] Mere Nick, are you seriously suggesting that the number/proportion of gun-related deaths in other Western democracies is as high as it is in the US?

---

No, I've not suggested that. I've no doubt that, as a country, we Americans have more of a desire to shoot other people than do other western countries. We seem to get off on it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
A bit like the way the British get off on drunkenness and casual sex I suppose . . .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tortuf:

Will things change? Not until politicians have the courage to stand up to the NRA and gun idiots quit sucking up all the bullshit that is handed them by paranoid gun boosters.

---

That won't change anything. What has to change is our desire to kill. Nothing else will work.
 

---

Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :
 
As more details come out about the killer, it certainly sounds like the access to the guns was a big part of the issue. Had he only had access to a knife, the story would have been "children hurt" like the one on the same day from China.

He came from a decent home, had a mother who would get him help with mental health issues and was buzzed into the school by the principal who recognized him as someone who was not a threat. Her trust cost her her life.
 

---

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 
Hijackers crash planes into buildings killing 3,000 Americans and this country changes air regulations,develops new screening technology, increases domestic and international intelligence and goes to the ends of the earth to try to prevent it from happening again. 12,000 Americans are murdered by guns annually and "There's nothing we can do. Someone will slip through the cracks and do it again. People are just bad."



[ 15. December 2012, 14:52: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Mere Nick Posted: Since they can still get them "more difficult" really doesn't matter. It's like to put things a little bit higher so my cat can't get to them. He still does.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:
FFS the world isn't fixed because you blog about it, nor do we wait with baited breath for words of wisdom to drop from your lips. If you have nothing to say here then don't, and go pray in all saints.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lily pad:
He came from a decent home, had a mother who would get him help with mental health issues and was buzzed into the school by the principal who recognized him as someone who was not a threat. Her trust cost her her life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lily pad:

He came from a decent home, had a mother who would get him help with mental health issues and was buzzed into the school by the principal who recognized him as someone who was not a threat. Her trust cost her her life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Hijackers crash planes into buildings killing 3,000 Americans and this country changes air regulations,develops new screening technology, increases domestic and international intelligence and goes to the ends of the earth to try to prevent it from happening again. 12,000 Americans are murdered by guns annually and "There's nothing we can do. Someone will slip through the cracks and do it again. People are just bad."

---

quote:

---

"There is not a single safety measure that anyone could have put in place at that school that would have stopped what happened," said Bill Bond, the school safety specialist for the National Association of Secondary School Principals. "When you allow absolutely insane people to arm themselves like they're going to war, they go to war."

He calls metal detectors useless. Buzzer systems are just locked doors. Lockdown plans are important to keep people safe, but they don't keep evil out.

"In a school, your only real protection is kids trusting you with information," Bond said. "If they don't trust you with information and someone is planning to do something, it's a matter of how many will be killed before you kill him."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Our rate is falling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Hijackers crash planes into buildings killing 3,000 Americans and this country changes air regulations,develops new screening technology, increases domestic and international intelligence and goes to the ends of the earth to try to prevent it from happening again. 12,000 Americans are murdered by guns annually and "There's nothing we can do. Someone will slip through the cracks and do it again. People are just bad."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tortuf:
What a meaningful addition to the discussion.

ETA: RE the Rogue's post.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tortuf:

Will things change? Not until politicians have the courage to stand up to the NRA and gun idiots quit sucking up all the bullshit that is handed them by paranoid gun boosters.

---

That won't change anything. What has to change is our desire to kill. Nothing else will work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:


The poster lists handgun deaths in a variety of countries for one year, as follows:

Japan - 48
Great Britain - 8
Switzerland - 34
Canada - 52
Israel - 58
Sweden - 21
West Germany - 42
United States - 10,728


Anyone who can look at that and conclude that the American approach to gun ownership, gun control and gun responsibility is at all sensible is completely fucking deranged.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:
FFS the world isn't fixed because you blog about it, nor do we wait with baited breath for words of wisdom to drop from your lips. If you have nothing to say here then don't, and go pray in all saints.

I am sick and tired of people posting on sof threads, 'I am really concerned, I've blogged about it' - well woot, all sorted then I don't think. That and the implication we all need to go running to your blog to make up for the gaping void left in the thread left by you withholding the precious fruit of your cogitation, is just a teensy weensy bit narcissistic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tortuf:
Then quit looking.

---

Well, the USA is kind of hard to ignore! What with all those weapons 'n'all... However, if you meant 'quit looking' in the way that nobody likes to make eye contact with the crazy smelly guy on the tube talking to himself and picking at the sores on his face, you might have a point .
 

---

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lothiriel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Hijackers crash planes into buildings killing 3,000 Americans and this country changes air regulations,develops new screening technology, increases domestic and international intelligence and goes to the ends of the earth to try to prevent it from happening again. 12,000 Americans are murdered by guns annually and "There's nothing we can do. Someone will slip through the cracks and do it again. People are just bad."

---

Going after terrorists (especially if you can use an adjective phrase like "Muslim extremist") is an "us vs them" scenario. But going after domestic guns means looking in the mirror for the problem.

---

quote:

---

We think danger is black, brown and poor, and if we can just move far enough away from "those people" in the cities we'll be safe. If we can just find an "all-American" town, life will be better, because "things like this just don't happen here."

Well bullshit on that. In case you hadn't noticed, "here" is about the only place these kinds of things do happen. Oh sure, there is plenty of violence in urban communities and schools. But mass murder; wholesale slaughter; take-a-gun-and-see-how-many-you can-kill kinda craziness seems made for those safe places: the white suburbs or rural communities.

And yet once again, we hear the FBI insist there is no "profile" of a school shooter. Come again? White boy after white boy after white boy, with very few exceptions to that rule, decides to use their classmates for target practice, and yet there is no profile? Imagine if all these killers had been black: would we still hesitate to put a racial face on the perpetrators? Doubtful.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Newest reports say the shooter was 20 years old, so definitely it was violent video games.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lily pad:
How in the world do you respond to Christian colleagues who post articles like this? Seriously? I've already tried to speak to the t-shirt posts about not letting God in schools but this takes the cake!

http://www.russellmoore.com/2012/12/14/school-shootings-and-spiritual-warfare/

---

It's up there with Gov. Huckabee saying it's because we took prayer out of the schools and the AFA's Fischer saying it's because we don't allow God in schools. And this gets a rarely used (by me)

 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
With mass firearm killings declining since the '90s and down from their peak in the '20s, a concerned Brit opens yet another a Hell thread condemning the lack of gun control laws in the United States on the heels of an horrific shooting.

All Right-Thinking People then emote concern all over the ensuing four pages.

Quelle surprise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Misleading statistics are misleading

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
With mass firearm killings declining since the '90s and down from their peak in the '20s, a concerned Brit opens yet another a Hell thread condemning the lack of gun control laws in the United States on the heels of an horrific shooting.

---

quote:

---

All Right-Thinking People then emote concern all over the ensuing four pages.

---

quote:

---

[b]Quelle surprise. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Misleading statistics are misleading

---

What is misleading about those statistics, pray tell?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Doc Tor provisioning your tautology with a hyperlink doesn't save it from itself.

Precisely how do traces showing number of homicides by weapon type against years from 1976 to 2002 relate to the assertion that "mass firearm killings [have been] declining since the '90s and [are] down from their peak in the '20s"?

But, balaam did, RuthW; and, that's my point. It's all too predictable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Doc Tor provisioning your tautology with a hyperlink doesn't save it from itself.

Precisely how do traces showing number of homicides by weapon type against years from 1976 to 2002 relate to the assertion that "mass firearm killings [have been] declining since the '90s and [are] down from their peak in the '20s"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
But, balaam did, RuthW; and, that's my point. It's all too predictable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
But, balaam did, RuthW; and, that's my point. It's all too predictable.

---

Yes, it's predictable that someone outside office hours in the UK was faster off the mark than I was in the middle of the morning at work, but that's hardly a point worth making. But next time someone shoots up a school, maybe I'll bust my ass to be the one who starts the Hell thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
See, gay people marrying doesn't lead to death.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm pretty certain you're wrong on the substantive point

---

quote:

---

Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, said that while mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.

---

quote:

---

Doc Tor said:
110 mass killings up to and including Sep 27 in 2012. 14 in 1990. 6 in 1995. 91 in 1999.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
See, gay people marrying doesn't lead to death.

---

Yeah, but it does lead to hurricanes and earthquakes and middle eastern warfare. Apparently.

I hasten to add only according to some sad-minded people.

TSA, what is your point about a British person starting this thread being predictable. Would you have preferred the British to lay off commenting on this internationally interesting event? Would you have been happier if it had been a Frenchman or a Jamaican who started this thread?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

As far as the Mother Jones article and Sioni Sais's willingness to pass by mass firearm killings subsequent to a crime, I really don't see how it's germane to exclude the killing done by criminals and by employees of organized crime.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

---

Doc Tor said:
110 mass killings up to and including Sep 27 in 2012. 14 in 1990. 6 in 1995. 91 in 1999.

---

When he meant to say, for example, five mass killings in 1999, with 91 fatalities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Doc Tor, I'm not quibbling. You are mishandling the statistics you present. Five is a decimal order of magnitude (almost two) less than 91. Way to say what you mean.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, 2012 - you're up to what 8, 9 events now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
See Beeswax Altar's posts on this Purgatory thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I was, you know, counting the victims, not the perpetrators.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Look here. 110 mass killings up to and including Sep 27 in 2012. 14 in 1990. 6 in 1995. 91 in 1999.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
gun violence cannot (and will not) be vanquished by greater (unconstitutional) gun restrictions. It's just not going to happen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
balaam, nice way to stick cotton in your ears. You may have counted many Americans on these two threads wishing away gun violence, but none of them has mounted an effective response to meet the argument that gun violence cannot (and will not) be vanquished by greater (unconstitutional) gun restrictions. It's just not going to happen.

---

No one said that, what is more it was an American who pointed that out. The irony is sublime.
 

---

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Generally yours is a good point, but this isn't that red herring. Feel free to replace "vanquished" to "reduced to an acceptable level."

My point stands: no one on that thread has convincingly countered the argument that the legal facts and the politics prevent gun restrictions being an effective means to reduce gun violence in America.

Americans will have a chance to reduce gun violence when we are no longer the world's greatest producer and purveyors of weapons. Till then, the chickens will continue to come home to roost.
 

---

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
balaam, who said what, who pointed that out? Where is the irony sublime? Your antecedents are dim and dimmer.
 

---

Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Well I can only speak from the Australian experience, but after mass shootings in the 1980s and 1990s (Hoddle street and Queen St murders in Melbourne and Port Arthur in Tasmsnia) the then Commonwealth Government starred down any reluctant States (others were quite happy to go along) and brought in strict gun control, with buy backs and quite public destruction of firearms. There was a fair bit of teeth gnashing and the loonies were all convinced that the government would take their land and their womenfollk.

To the best of my knowledge, we have had no mass murders since then and in terms of how I might die, I suspect I have about as much chance of bring kicked to death by a duck as I have of being shot anywhere in Australia.

As for the argument that an armed teacher could have prevented the murders, the sheer perversity of suggesting that having more guns cocked and ready to fire to deal with the fact that too many nutters have too many guns is mind-boggling.
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
I apologize for casting blame on the victim in what I said about the principal's death.
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Autenrieth Road, I appreciate very much that you posted that. As you may have seen by now, it has finally come out in the press that the principal tried to throw herself on the shooter and that is how she died. My daughter had told me about that in her first phone call home on Friday afternoon.

I also want to correct a comment upthread to the effect that the shooter "was buzzed into the school because they knew him." He forced his way into the school. The details of how he did that haven't been released yet, but nobody allowed him in.

[ 16. December 2012, 03:00: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Generally yours is a good point, but this isn't that red herring. Feel free to replace "vanquished" to "reduced to an acceptable level."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If I sell them to someone they can just as easily do something stupid with them. Actually, the likelihood would increase since right now they are just in the closet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Well I can only speak from the Australian experience, but after mass shootings in the 1980s and 1990s (Hoddle street and Queen St murders in Melbourne and Port Arthur in Tasmsnia) the then Commonwealth Government starred down any reluctant States (others were quite happy to go along) and brought in strict gun control, with buy backs and quite public destruction of firearms.

---

It can be done, motivation is all.
 

---

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
I said this in purg to deafening silence, and so I will repeat it here. If having guns and being armed keeps you safe, why is Mrs Lanza dead ?

In this situation, Mrs Lanza is effectively in Mere Nick's position - pro-guns, has her own collection,goes shooting - why didn't it work ?

[ 16. December 2012, 10:10: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on :
 
Los Angeles had a buy back today and collected over 1600 guns. They've had several of these over the years and while it gains residents some easy cash, it never seems to make even the slightest dent in senseless shootings. Still, the assault weapons ban being put back in place along with closing the gun show and private gun sale loopholes would go a long ways without infringing on anyone's gun rights. Personally, I'd love to see semi automatic weapons banned for private citizens but I know that will never fly here. We do love our guns here, no matter how many senseless deaths occur.
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
You say 91 mass killings in 1999. There were five. Referring to your link, the total fatalities is closer to 1000 (943 at a quick tally) than to 110. There were 61 total incidents. Doc Tor, can't you count; or, does only rhetoric matter to you, not the actual numbers?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
Autenrieth Road, I appreciate very much that you posted that. As you may have seen by now, it has finally come out in the press that the principal tried to throw herself on the shooter and that is how she died. My daughter had told me about that in her first phone call home on Friday afternoon.

I also want to correct a comment upthread to the effect that the shooter "was buzzed into the school because they knew him." He forced his way into the school. The details of how he did that haven't been released yet, but nobody allowed him in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
balaam, who said what, who pointed that out? Where is the irony sublime? Your antecedents are dim and dimmer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl:
We do love our guns here, no matter how many senseless deaths occur.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicolemr:
I understand that it probably never entered her worst nightmares that he might do something like he did, but shouldn't the danger of suicide at least occured to her? At the very least, shouldn't she have locked up the guns (of which she apparently owned many)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
The claim that Nancy Lanza was a survivalist as been debunked by her friends.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Instead of saying 6 or 7 guns, I'll just say 6. The seventh gun, a revolver, might make a good paper weight and that's about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
I don't travel a lot and I don't suppose I ever will. But if the opportunity to visit the USA comes up I will think long and hard because I see it as a place where I will be in danger from anybody who wants to carry a gun.

Rational? Probably not. But that's how I feel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
The claim that Nancy Lanza was a survivalist as been debunked by her friends.

---

Not according to that article, which only says it was dismissed by one friend. I'm far from convinced.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Well I can only speak from the Australian experience, but after mass shootings in the 1980s and 1990s (Hoddle street and Queen St murders in Melbourne and Port Arthur in Tasmsnia) the then Commonwealth Government starred down any reluctant States (others were quite happy to go along) and brought in strict gun control, with buy backs and quite public destruction of firearms. There was a fair bit of teeth gnashing and the loonies were all convinced that the government would take their land and their womenfollk.

To the best of my knowledge, we have had no mass murders since then and in terms of how I might die, I suspect I have about as much chance of bring kicked to death by a duck as I have of being shot anywhere in Australia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
The claim that Nancy Lanza was a survivalist as been debunked by her friends.

---

Not according to that article, which only says it was dismissed by one friend. I'm far from convinced.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I'm not anti-American but I find it deeply troubling that some people in your country has a bigger moral problem with gay people getting married than they do with civilians carrying semi-automatic firearms.

See, gay people marrying doesn't lead to death. Firearms on the other hand...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
]I have in fact been thinking this week about my travel plans for next year, and USA is/was top of the list. But I honestly wonder, do I want to spend a lengthy amount of time - a couple of months - in a country where about 80 people are killed by guns a day?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Americans will have a chance to reduce gun violence when we are no longer the world's greatest producer and purveyors of weapons. Till then, the chickens will continue to come home to roost.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Good point, comet. Do you have any idea how many mass firearm killings there have been in Alaska. (I realize that there are more people in Columbus than Alaska, but I'm still interested.)

---

quote:

---

In 2009, ABC’s “20/20″ demonstrated the problem with a clever experiment. They recruited a dozen or so students, gave them gun training that was more comprehensive than what most states require for concealed carry permits, and then entrusted them with a gun and told them they would have to fend off a shooter later that day. Separating them, they placed each one in a real classroom with other “students” (actually study compatriots). When a gunman burst in and started shooting, each student tried to respond by drawing his or her gun. Every single student failed, including several who had had years of practice shooting guns, and they all got shot (fortunately, it was just paintball bullets in real handguns).

The truth, as difficult as it is to accept, is that it’s often impossible to stop a shooter no matter how many guns are present. John Hinckley Jr. managed to nearly kill Ronald Reagan and permanently disable James Brady despite the fact that they were surrounded by dozens of heavily armed men with the best training imaginable. The only way to stop the incident would have been to prevent the offender from getting guns in the first place.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by
The Silent Acolyte:
You say 91 mass killings in 1999. There were five. Referring to your link, the total fatalities is closer to 1000 (943 at a quick tally) than to 110. There were 61 total incidents. Doc Tor, can't you count; or, does only rhetoric matter to you, not the actual numbers?

---

What the hell are you smoking?

110 deaths up to Sept 2012 for the year, just like the per year stats I'd quoted all the other times.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by
The Silent Acolyte:
You say 91 mass killings in 1999. There were five. Referring to your link, the total fatalities is closer to 1000 (943 at a quick tally) than to 110. There were 61 total incidents. Doc Tor, can't you count; or, does only rhetoric matter to you, not the actual numbers?

---

What the hell are you smoking?

110 deaths up to Sept 2012 for the year, just like the per year stats I'd quoted all the other times.

---

Doc Tor, I want to apologize to you.

To my reading a "mass killing" denotes an occasion with a number of fatalities, so "mass killings" is a number of such occasions with a larger number of deaths.

I initially read your comments that way and couldn't understand what in the world you were saying and how you could be such a meat-head.

After you did explain yourself, I was the meat-head, persistently and repeatedly the meat-head, reading your words through my lens and not the one you provided me.

I was being obtuse and obstreperous and I'm sorry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Good point, comet. Do you have any idea how many mass firearm killings there have been in Alaska. (I realize that there are more people in Columbus than Alaska, but I'm still interested.)


Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, despite being almost devoid of people and stuffed with guns, still have two (count 'em), two members in the upper house of the national legislature.

That is why, say, Washington, DC, or New York, or Los Angeles will never be able to unfuck the ridiculous gun violence situation in their environs through gun restrictions.

---

Well, actually, New York City has the lowest violent crime rate per capita of any U.S. city over 1 million resident by far. We're almost at European levels.

New York City's violent crime rate is 581.7/100,000. Anchorage's is 837.7/100,000.
 

---

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
You are so right. How 1970s of me.

My examples should have been New Orleans, Baltimore, and St. Louis, if this table is to be trusted.
 

---

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
It is possibly no coincidence that New York City also has very stringent gun control laws. Just sayin'.
 

---

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
I was at the Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania some years ago when a crazed gunman shot so many innocent people. The whole incident is traumatic to this day. Thankfully it led to very strict gun laws throughout Australia and there have been no such gun fuelled incidents since. Guns kill and that is their purpose. I would like to see a gun free society except for strictly controlled use by certain specialised professionals. My prayers are for the victims of gun violence.
 

---

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicolemr:
It is possibly no coincidence that New York City also has very stringent gun control laws. Just sayin'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Well, actually, New York City has the lowest violent crime rate per capita of any U.S. city over 1 million resident by far. We're almost at European levels.

New York City's violent crime rate is 581.7/100,000. Anchorage's is 837.7/100,000.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Well, actually, New York City has the lowest violent crime rate per capita of any U.S. city over 1 million resident by far. We're almost at European levels.

New York City's violent crime rate is 581.7/100,000. Anchorage's is 837.7/100,000.

---

Huh? San Diego (427.6/100,000), Phoenix (518.1/100,000) and Los Angeles (559.2/100,000) all have lower violent crime rates than New York, according to the Wikipedia table.

---

Sorry. I confused overall crime rate with just the violent crime rate.

Chicago may have stricter gun laws on the books, but NYC's gun laws are more strictly enforced. Police actively search backpacks, bags and people entering the subways and public transportation (which is far more widely used here than anywhere else in the country) and they conduct other pro-active operations to find and dispose of guns.

That said, there's more to it than just tough gun laws. There are other factors like type of policing ("community" policing), number of police per capita, economic and social factors, etc.

Still, as a NYC commuter, the thought of everyone packing loaded guns on a crowded subway gives me the chills. Subway fights are common enough. Right now they escalate to punching and kicking - once I witnessed two people pull knives. The fear that anyone, in any mental or emotional state, can pull a gun and shoot up a packed subway car between stations is a terrifying thought. Shootings still happen here, but gun ownership isn't part of the culture, people don't expect those they encounter to have them and it changes the way people interact with each other.

[ 19. December 2012, 19:01: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
The National Review has finally gone off the deep end. William F. Buckley Jr. has to be rolling in his grave at more than 33-1/3 RPM. The fuckwittery is too much. OMFG.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Wow. So even if the women were rootin-tootin' gun-totin' women, they'd STILL be wrong?

And the outcome of gun battles, or of armed vs unarmed, is ultimately determined by the gender of the participants? Physical size and strength is still a factor even when using a semi-automatic?

Good to know.

Now if you'll excuse me, this queer pansy needs to head for the gym and muscle up. My handgun measures my BMI and fat/muscle ratio when I hold the grip, and it won't fire if I'm not sufficiently like a Real Man.
 

---

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 
And then you have this...

Fox News: Sales of bulletproof backpacks, kids' body armor by Utah company soar 500 percent following Connecticut shooting


An armed nation is a terrified nation...



[ 19. December 2012, 21:39: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
The National Review has finally gone off the deep end. William F. Buckley Jr. has to be rolling in his grave at more than 33-1/3 RPM. The fuckwittery is too much. OMFG.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:



An armed nation is a terrified nation...

---

Terrified and the opposite of 'Free'.


 

---

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
The National Review has finally gone off the deep end. William F. Buckley Jr. has to be rolling in his grave at more than 33-1/3 RPM. The fuckwittery is too much. OMFG.

---

Good grief!

But he's probably been spinning in his grave at 78 RPM since the NR forced his son, Christopher, off the magazine for supporting Obama in 2008.

---

That article is insane. I'm pleased to see though that the author Charlotte Allen's book has had a flurry of negative reviews on Amazon in protest.

[ 20. December 2012, 09:12: Message edited by: Hawk ]
 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
And then you have this...

Fox News: Sales of bulletproof backpacks, kids' body armor by Utah company soar 500 percent following Connecticut shooting


An armed nation is a terrified nation...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

But how do you stop paranoia?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hawk:
I'm pleased to see though that the author Charlotte Allen's book has had a flurry of negative reviews on Amazon in protest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hawk:
I'm pleased to see though that the author Charlotte Allen's book has had a flurry of negative reviews on Amazon in protest.

---

You mean from people who've not actually read the book? Stupid childish arseholes. Even if they're on my side of a debate, that doesn't stop them from being stupid childish arseholes.

What are people doing here? Are they trying to win an argument, or they trying to prove to their opponents that they're petty irrational vindictive idiots whose arguments can be dismissed on the grounds of their behaviour?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
...NYC's gun laws are more strictly enforced. Police actively search backpacks, bags and people entering the subways and public transportation (which is far more widely used here than anywhere else in the country) and they conduct other pro-active operations to find and dispose of guns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I could accurately review Jeffrey Archer's latest without reading it and I haven't read any of his books. I can however trust lit crits, as they agree that every Jeffrey Archer == every other Jeffrey Archer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Most of the boys in that class told me they routinely carried a knife for their own protection. I tried to tell them that the most likely result would be that an attacker would get the knife off them and use it on them, but it cut little ice.

---

Why would you tell them that?

Is it based on decent evidence or a faith proposition you happen to hold?
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
A quick bit of googling brought me a nice page about what happens to people who think they can do knife fights.
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
The knife talk is silly, so too is the worry about guns. It's ping pong what kills.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I'm less worried about the backpacks and body armor than I am about the increased gun sales!

Gaaaa! This is NOT the OK Corral, folks!

 

---

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
A quick bit of googling brought me a nice page about what happens to people who think they can do knife fights.

---

Finally, something relating to self-defense we agree on...

In all seriousness, check out the link, folks. MacYoung is a darned good writer, and his material on the causes of interpersonal violence is a real eye-opener.
 

---

Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by moron:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Most of the boys in that class told me they routinely carried a knife for their own protection. I tried to tell them that the most likely result would be that an attacker would get the knife off them and use it on them, but it cut little ice.

---

Why would you tell them that?

Is it based on decent evidence or a faith proposition you happen to hold?

---

It had been police advice on a visit to the school. And as I made clear, I was talking to year 8 students, growing up in a tough East End borough but little more than children.
 

---

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
That piece on knife fighting is very good.
We practice with daggers in our re-enactment group - these are blunt, of course - and I'm rubbish at it. It's too fast, too close, and one of the participants usually "dies" very quickly. Of course, what we're interested in is making it look good for the public, which in turn makes it less like a real knife fight.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
The NRA's answer is more guns in schools. Goddamned assholes.
 

---

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :
 
Dear God. I find it rather shocking that he thinks that "26 little kids" were killed. Shows how closely he has been following the news.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun”

What utter, absolute bollocks. Where do they think they are - the wild west where the good guys all wear white hats?
Words fail me. If this were true the USA would be the safest pace re gun crime. As it is the USA is down there with the lawless places on Earth. Does he not realise that the 'good guy with a gun' would simply be the first target?

The thing which will lessen gun crime is to lessen the availability of guns. This is so very obvious I can't think why it needs saying.

<scream>

[ 21. December 2012, 16:21: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
There were two armed police officers at Columbine High School. They were outgunned. (Source.)
 

---

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
The NRA's answer is more guns in schools. Goddamned assholes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by moron:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Most of the boys in that class told me they routinely carried a knife for their own protection. I tried to tell them that the most likely result would be that an attacker would get the knife off them and use it on them, but it cut little ice.

---

Why would you tell them that?

Is it based on decent evidence or a faith proposition you happen to hold?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

The thing which will lessen gun crime is to lessen the availability of guns. This is so very obvious I can't think why it needs saying.

<scream>

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

Guns in schools have got to be kept away from the children. If you can get to the gun in time then it isn't in a safe place with regards to the children.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
That's assuming we have a rock bottom. An individual person has a rock bottom. As each gun drunk hits his rock bottom, he will be replaced by another with a yet lower bottom.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
That's assuming we have a rock bottom. An individual person has a rock bottom. As each gun drunk hits his rock bottom, he will be replaced by another with a yet lower bottom.

---

Possibly. Many alcoholics never hit their own rock bottom. They die. The analogy still holds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Americans will have a chance to reduce gun violence when we are no longer the world's greatest producer and purveyors of weapons. Till then, the chickens will continue to come home to roost.

---

But I wonder if there is a clear practical link in addition to the moral link. It would be perfectly feasible to have a roaring overseas trade in arms with no domestic trade (e.g. the UK) or, vice versa, a roaring internal availability of arms with next to no export (a number of failed states as examples).

---

quote:

---

I don't give a fuck what the NRA said in their tawdry little press conference; we ought to be listening to what the Catholic Bishops say in their writings on peace and justice.

---

quote:

---

And, let me say that putting law enforcement officers in the schools is just batshit crazy. That only furthers the already distressing level of militarization of American civic life.

---

Yes
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
No Prophet, trying to make a link between a legitimate government's decisions in response to terrorism, with the actions of those who deliberately target children in schools is facile.

But we've discussed that already. You were wrong then and you're wrong now.
 

---

Posted by eeGAD (# 4675) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Recess. Playground. Sniper across the street in the trees picking off children one by one.

---

The residents of the Washington DC area actually lived through this in 2002. During the 3 weeks of terror during the Beltway Sniper attacks, a 13yr old boy was shot while entering school.

People talked about armed guards at schools back then. But that wouldn't have helped that boy. It's important that people remember Columbine, where they actually had armed guards at the school but it didn't make a difference.

Putting more guns at schools, to me, is a very surreal response to these events.

After the shooting at The Dark Knight Opening, should we put armed guards around movie theaters too?

eeG
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Armed guards everywhere. Then, also following the guidance of the NRA, arm everyone. This will work because, um, How is that supposed to work again?

[ 22. December 2012, 21:22: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 

---

Posted by PataLeBon (# 5452) on :
 
I'm beginning to believe that we should stop calling them victims but martyrs to the NRA and the Second Amendment.

Maybe if we start a calendar of the martyrs, people will start realizing that many of us see NOT owning a gun as an act of faith in a higher power. As believing in the God who states that might doesn't make right and that we will be judged by how we treat the least of these.

Or maybe I'm just incoherently angry...
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
That's assuming we have a rock bottom. An individual person has a rock bottom. As each gun drunk hits his rock bottom, he will be replaced by another with a yet lower bottom.

---

Possibly. Many alcoholics never hit their own rock bottom. They die. The analogy still holds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by eeGAD:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Recess. Playground. Sniper across the street in the trees picking off children one by one.

---

The residents of the Washington DC area actually lived through this in 2002. During the 3 weeks of terror during the Beltway Sniper attacks, a 13yr old boy was shot while entering school.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
The ABC has spoken out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Niteowl:
One of the very first school shootings happened in San Diego, CA in 1979.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
That's assuming we have a rock bottom. An individual person has a rock bottom. As each gun drunk hits his rock bottom, he will be replaced by another with a yet lower bottom.

---

Possibly. Many alcoholics never hit their own rock bottom. They die. The analogy still holds.

---

But that's also why your solution won't ever become a solution. Even with more and more guns, there will always be a gun nut who says the problem had to do with the guns not being deployed correctly or that something else was wrong (cf mousethief's comment about snipers and needing to redesign schools to fix this), and that the true solution involves more guns.

It wouldn't even stop at every person in the nation having a gun, because the situation now is that those Americans who own a gun usually own several.

The only solution will be when the people who aren't gun drunk stop humoring the gun drunks and paying attention to what they say.

---

quote:

---

a little-noticed provision in the 2011 National Defense Authorization Act that prevents military commanders and noncommissioned officers from being able to talk to service members about their private weapons, even in cases in which a leader believes that a service member may be suicidal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Armed guards everywhere. Then, also following the guidance of the NRA, arm everyone. This will work because, um, How is that supposed to work again?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I see it now. Thousands of unregulated gun nuts patrolling the environs of schools ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Recess. Playground. Sniper across the street in the trees picking off children one by one.

How is your "armed guard" going to stop that?

Well, we'll have to redesign schools with the courtyards in the inside.

Kinda like prisons.

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Like in the
spree that inspired "I Don't Like Mondays"?

[ 24. December 2012, 13:09: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
 

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Posted by PataLeBon (# 5452) on :
 
Apparently firefighters need armed protection, or at least be ready to shoot back

4 Firefighters shot responding to house fire

When will the NRA admit that there is a gun problem in America? When their own offices get shot up???
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
In that film classic "All Quiet on the Western Front" the old soldier told youngsters, new to trench combat, that the best weapon to use when under attack was not a rifle but a humble spade.

While day-dreaming in our local super-market this morning I thought had a gun-totter appeared at the end of an isle to indulge themselves, then me pulling a gun, (should I own one), and trying to take them from the front would be completely useless.
What a brave and focused person,(probably not me), would better do is run back the the length of the isle and up another one to jump the perpetrator from behind, then wrestle the weapon to the floor.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PataLeBon:
[...] When will the NRA admit that there is a gun problem in America? When their own offices get shot up???

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quote:

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Originally posted by PataLeBon:
Apparently firefighters need armed protection, or at least be ready to shoot back

4 Firefighters shot responding to house fire

When will the NRA admit that there is a gun problem in America? When their own offices get shot up???

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quote:

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Originally posted by piglet:
I can't help thinking it would be all too easy for a psychopathic nutter to bypass the safety checks like Ian Huntley, who got a job as a school caretaker (despite having a dodgy past)

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quote:

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Originally posted by PataLeBon:
4 Firefighters shot responding to house fire

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quote:

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Originally posted by PataLeBon:
When will the NRA admit that there is a gun problem in America? When their own offices get shot up???

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There's a "meme" going around FB right now that says, if women were using assault weapons to protect their reproductive rights, the NRA would ban them yesterday.
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Silly mousethief, they would not. What they would do is begin to petition for the right to arm the unborn.
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 
Please don't send him back.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Please don't send him back.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
It had been police advice on a visit to the school. And as I made clear, I was talking to year 8 students, growing up in a tough East End borough but little more than children.

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I guess the cops would say that to children.

And I suppose I'm a little touchy on the topic as recently for the first time in my (oddly) not short life I brandished a knife - a Spyderco Native I am now even more grateful I own - and it gave the aggressor serious enough pause he backed down.

Not that I recommend anyone doing what I felt necessary: a better man would have handed over his cloak.
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
And a man with less luck would have been dead. He may have had a gun. And, to forestall the argument, if you had a gun you would still likely be dead.
 

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Posted by moron (# 206) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And a man with less luck would have been dead.

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