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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Grauniad and the paedophile
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Absolutely. Far better to just burn anyone who looks a bit suspect than to actually try to look at the issue and understand it better.
The main problem with that article is that it's too superficial, and the catch-all words cover a huge range of behaviour that could easily range from the incontrovertibly damaging through to the ambiguous and potentially all the way to "Meh, so what?" depending on the parameters and detail at any given point.
So whichever way you cut it, all it's going to do is have knees jerking across the country.
I don't have a problem with people saying "Hang on a sec, folks" in the middle of witch-hunt fervour. I would have a problem with people using such things to cloud the issue and get away with actual abusive behaviour by being smarmy bastards.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
It is truly a terrible crime for the media to be involved in discussing controversial subjects, and - gasp - trying to understand why some people act in the way they do. Obviously something sinister at work here, methinks.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
It was so much easier in the days of the stake...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Not content to merely an article lending support to the notion that paedophilia is an orientation and may not be harmful to its victims, the Guardian also give voice to convicted sex offender and advocate of 'paedophile rights', Tom O'Carroll ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
More words fucking fail me...
In fact, the article does not quote Tom O'Carroll with approval. His reported opinion is immediately followed by a counter opinion by criminologist Kieran McCartan who uses O'Carroll's work to demonstrate ways in which a Pedophile can rationalise and justify their behaviour.
The article then quotes Donald Findlater who counters O'Carroll's belief that sex with a child is not harmful if it consensual by pointing out that a child is not able to make informed consent to a sexual relationship.
The article also quote Findlater giving good reasons why Pedophilia cannot be regarded as an orientation; the presence of persistent bullying and sexual abuse in the childhood experience of many pedophiles.
This is a thoughtful, if rather brief, article. I can't agree that its existence makes the Guardian worthy of a Hell call. I believe we need to keep ourselves well informed about difficult subjects such as pedophilia. As CP Scott said, "Comment is free, but facts are sacred."
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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.
Posts: 400 | From: Manchester | Registered: Aug 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
It also raised the spectre, much debunked on these boards, of equating paedophilia with same-sex attraction. Happy with that?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
It also raised the spectre, much debunked on these boards, of equating paedophilia with same-sex attraction. Happy with that?
The article raises that spectre and then debunks it:
quote:
Donald Findlater of the Lucy Faithfull foundation
There may be some vulnerabilities that could be genetic, but normally there are some significant events in a person's life, a sexually abusive event, a bullying environment … I believe it is learned, and can be unlearned."
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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.
Posts: 400 | From: Manchester | Registered: Aug 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Looks to me like rather a dull cut and paste space-filler, and certainly not a soapbox for paedophilia. I think, MB, that on this occasion you're letting your instictive reaction to the Guardian (which I don't share but can understand- it's rather on a level with my instinctive reaction to the Daily Mail, FWIW) get the better of you.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Possibly, plus more of my instinctive reaction as a dad to the odious piece of shit that is O'Carroll.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Matt, if you say “gullible” slowly it sounds like “orange.”
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif) (Friday afternoon brain on)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
(Friday afternoon brain on)
Just try it. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
With a mouthful of biscuit, perhaps.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
C'mon Hellions, had it been published by the Daily Mail we'd be on page 3 by now.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I have to say that you're all being dreadfully nice to me, what with this being Hell and evidently you all thinking this is a pretty lame Hell call...I have a feeling something dreadful is going to happen...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
So, Matt, you have a problem with pedophilia being identified as a sexual orientation? This seems to be the essence of your issue. It is hard to really flame you any more than others have already done, because you seem to be leading a call for the pitchforks to be out. I am sure that killing pedophiles would really help everyone. Fuckwit.
The reason that I agree with pedophilia being defined as a sexual orientation is that this means it is not something that can be cured or healed. It means that pedophiles can be viewed not just as disgusting perverts who should be lynched, but as people with an issue that needs constant care and attention. It should mean that pedophiles could be released after an offence, but with full and proper monitoring, not just a hope that they will not do it again. It means that pedophiles can be treated as human beings, not monsters.
More - it means that people with pedophilic tendancies and inclinations could admit to this, and get help. At the moment, the only option is to offend and get locked up. Which is not good for the person offended against. Your pitchfork mentality simply drives it underground, and means that more children are abused. So, MB,you are the real abusive shitface.
Another thing that the article points out is that many pedophiles DO NOT OFFEND. And yet you would seem to condemn all pedophiles as sick twisted perverts, not as people who need help. If they have not offended, there is no place for help, no chance of help, not even any way to admit to these feelings. That, ISTM, is the shitpile we currently have, and it is fucked up.
Pedophile rights? Yes. But this does not mean accepting it as reasonable. Rights mean giving them safeguards to ensure they are not put in problematic situations, that they can admit to their feelings, that they can be helped, not just criminalised.
Of course, MB, you would rather take us back to the fucking middle ages. Wanker.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Matt, if you say “gullible” slowly it sounds like “orange.”
Perhaps, but that's no excuse for the bizarre and outrageous decision by Oxford University Press to cut the entry for "gullible" out of the new edition of the Oxford English Dictionary altogether.
[ 04. January 2013, 17:22: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Weird. The only mention of the OED in your link is: quote:
The first attestation of gullibility known to the Oxford English Dictionary appears in 1793, and gullible in 1825. The OED gives gullible as a back-formation from gullibility, which is itself an alteration of cullibility
This doen't seem to be an avoidance of the word in question.
Please explain.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Please explain.
Any bizarre article about the word "gullible" is a set up.
Think about it.
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MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The old ones are the best.
But seriously. Three threads on the same topic are two too many. I'll save my real comment when I find out which one survives the oncoming thread cull.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Please explain.
You nearly got me there, Horseman.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
It would have been better without the link to the Wiki article, make people search for the info and be subsequently taunted by their search history.
It may still be in the dictionaries, but if even if it wasn't you could still look up and find gullible written on the ceiling
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Wordplay threads belong in The Circus or Heaven. Please stick to the OP (if that is possible).
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
To return to the topic.
I was a Child Protection Worker for many years. I have seen the damage done to many victems. I have also had to interview many Paedophiles, jointly with police officers. Police and Social Workers were trained together to undertake these interviews. I later became responsible for the training in my county, together with a Police Inspector.
There may be people with a Paedophile orientation who do not offend. I would not know, having only met them when they had offended.
What I do know is that none of those I came into contact with showed any sign of recognising the damage and hurt they had caused. This includes people who had committed very serious offences, including murdering victems.
[ 06. January 2013, 22:23: Message edited by: The Weeder ]
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Good article on a very difficult subject. Matt's outrage is idiotic and misplaced.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Kind of un-Hellish, Weeder, but an amrchair diagnosis of the lack of ability to understand the damage they caused (including murder!) sounds like antisocial personality disorder. Probably in combination with their sexual choices or orientation, whatever, but the point is, in many folks I've encountered, the pedophelia isn't the only personality disorder they exhibit.
Disclaimer that I'm not a shrink, and am not debating or flaming on about whether it's a choice or a genetic issue. I feel Schodinger's cat's post is good but should apply either way. As a Christian, I think we are more than the sum of our genes.
Purgatorially,
Tom
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Wordplay threads belong in The Circus or Heaven. Please stick to the OP (if that is possible).
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
Funny you should mention that. I've been thinking of starting a Fantasy Nonce League in The Circus, where players score points on their list of pop stars and TV icons they think will be getting a call from the Savile Squad.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Wordplay threads belong in The Circus or Heaven. Please stick to the OP (if that is possible).
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
Funny you should mention that. I've been thinking of starting a Fantasy Nonce League in The Circus, where players score points on their list of pop stars and TV icons they think will be getting a call from the Savile Squad.
Is there not a legal issue there?
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Funny you should mention that. I've been thinking of starting a Fantasy Nonce League in The Circus, where players score points on their list of pop stars and TV icons they think will be getting a call from the Savile Squad.
Is there not a legal issue there?
Oh Hell yes, there's a legal issue there. But I'm sure kankucho was just kidding...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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