Thread: Kids, and Church, again... Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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... Son #1 hates it. Son #2 would rather not be there. Daughter ignores it because she's 4 and can.
We've found a FE setup that's very relaxed and accepting and has short services, but son #1 on Sunday put his finders in his ears at the beginning of the service, where they stayed until the end. It's only "better" as far as he's concerned because it's shorter.
I have not the foggiest idea what to do. Our previous shack was liberal Anglo-Catholic and he was bored stiff - they gave him a job as a boat boy at one point but he hated and detested it. He's been taken by Mrs KLB to a lively free church down the road and he hated that - too noisy.
How the feck, folks, am I meant to attend to the baptismal promise to encourage him to be "faithful in public worship and come to confirmation", which can hardly be addressed by never going, when every time we go it seems to push him further away?
[ 27. November 2012, 10:43: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
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How old is he?
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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He's 8. The others are 6 and 4.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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Of course. It's boring.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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Don't they have Child Service/Sunday School/whatever you call it?
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
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Sorry. Deleted the previous post cos I reread your first one.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Don't they have Child Service/Sunday School/whatever you call it?
My thread "well so that's that then" appears to have dropped off, but - erm - it's complicated.
The background is here
We now have two churches. There's the next parish's CofE church, which does have a Sunday School. The problem is that there are about half a dozen kids, ranging from about 4 to 14, and the input is therefore aimed at the bottom end of the range - the sort of thing I cruelly parody here
We also have a FE setup which works very well for Mrs KLB (who's never been totally comfortable in a standard CofE liturgical environment, whilst I'm not been comfortable with hymn/prayer sandwiches or, God help us, charismatic sing-songs - that's another issue altogether). The services here are a half hour Eucharist set in a context of meeting for a shared lunch. The eldest one copes better with this, because it's only half an hour, but he still claims boredom. We thought we'd landed on our feet the first time because he was happy to sit on a bean bag and watch the screens, but he's really not engagingand argues strongly against going.
Perhaps it's a phase. I was an atheist at his age.
[ 27. November 2012, 12:25: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on
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I cannot believe I am saying this, but give him a choice of four or five books - religious ones if you can find some he does like - and let him read during the worst bits.
His faith formation will happen at other times and you won't be engaging in a battle of wills that you can't win.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Mine started arguing strongly against going at around that age. She's even higher church than me for preference nowadays, now she's early 20s.
He's 8 and almost certainly up to discussing the options. Could you say that you want to be a member of a church because you believe in God and give him your reasons. Say that you've promised to introduce him, his brother and sister to God and as far as you are concerned, church is the best way to do so (and the Bible says so too)? Then talk to him about ways of doing that, asking what he thinks and believes and would find helpful? Even if he can't think of anything helpful, you might get him to agree to go to the best service for the family willingly for his brother and sister's sake. Or you might get him to try to engage in the least worse option.
And yes, I really get the too noisy - I've started a Purgatory thread about it, because I think it's a real issue.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
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Karl, I don't quite know how this might help you, but here goes:
You, yourself, as you've expressed yourself on the Ship have never seemed too enthused with the whole church thing. (Forgive me if I missed some instances where you have.) It has been something of a bone of contention between you and your wife. I don't recall you ever making a report of anything about worship or church fellowship that has, as they say in the Mystery Worshipper reports, "made you feel happy to be a Christian". It all seems a matter of duty like your ""faithful in public worship and come to confirmation", and not in any sense a matter of joy.
If you think my observation is off-base, just ignore it. I only know you here, and I don't know the whole picture. But I'm thinking it might be time to rediscover your own "happy place" in worship. Maybe it will rub off on your kids.
My two cents.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Karl, I don't quite know how this might help you, but here goes:
You, yourself, as you've expressed yourself on the Ship have never seemed too enthused with the whole church thing. (Forgive me if I missed some instances where you have.) It has been something of a bone of contention between you and your wife. I don't recall you ever making a report of anything about worship or church fellowship that has, as they say in the Mystery Worshipper reports, "made you feel happy to be a Christian". It all seems a matter of duty like your ""faithful in public worship and come to confirmation", and not in any sense a matter of joy.
If you think my observation is off-base, just ignore it. I only know you here, and I don't know the whole picture. But I'm thinking it might be time to rediscover your own "happy place" in worship. Maybe it will rub off on your kids.
My two cents.
That's one of the reasons we moved to the FE setup that is so unnecessary according to some commentators here. You're right that I find little to enthuse me in most of what is on offer in the mainstream.
I wouldn't say it's a bone of contention between me and Mrs KLB; we've both struggled, albeit from different directions, with this.
It's hard to be enthusiastic about something when you're not entirely sure it's not a load of hokum.
[ 27. November 2012, 13:09: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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Our middle child was precocious in that she entered her teens at eight. Your son may well be the same.
I suspect that any kind of change in his attitude has to come from outside the church and, with the best will in the world, not from his parents either. Has he an aunt/uncle/cousin/friend/Godfather(!) between his age and yours who might be able to provide a bit of 1-2-1 that could persuade him that Sunday worship is worth persevering with?
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
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Karl: quote:
It's hard to be enthusiastic about something when you're not entirely sure it's not a load of hokum.
This was the impression I got from you.
Best of luck in working it all out. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
I cannot believe I am saying this, but give him a choice of four or five books - religious ones if you can find some he does like - and let him read during the worst bits.
His faith formation will happen at other times and you won't be engaging in a battle of wills that you can't win.
I think this is the right approach. If he likes the Narnia books, let him take them and read them.
Moo
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
His faith formation will happen at other times...
IMO, this is true of adults as well! I don't have children so this could be utter rubbish, but I think maybe I'd be more relaxed about the whole issue. As much as you can, hang out as a family with Christians in other, more social situations - perhaps then your kids will see something of how Christians relate with one another but in a positive context, rather than in the context of a dull church meeting.
Making a general point here, but I think it's important not to over-emphasise the couple of hours we might spend in a church service each week, at the expense of all the rest of the time we spend doing other things. Christianity is a whole-life thing, after all, right?
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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He takes books. He still kicks up a stink though. I think that from his viewpoint there's a principle involved, although I'm not quite sure what it is.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Have you asked him?
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
His faith formation will happen at other times...
IMO, this is true of adults as well! I don't have children so this could be utter rubbish, but I think maybe I'd be more relaxed about the whole issue. As much as you can, hang out as a family with Christians in other, more social situations - perhaps then your kids will see something of how Christians relate with one another but in a positive context, rather than in the context of a dull church meeting.
Except we don't. Not hanging around with Christians per se. I mean, we hang around with some people who happen to be Christians, but that's it really. I can't think, really, how we would do so.
quote:
Making a general point here, but I think it's important not to over-emphasise the couple of hours we might spend in a church service each week, at the expense of all the rest of the time we spend doing other things. Christianity is a whole-life thing, after all, right?
Yeah, but there's not really a specifically Christian way of boarding the loft, doing the shopping or transporting the kids to cubs, which is pretty much the sort of thing that fills up that "rest of the time."
He's terribly competitive. Even saying grace is a competition of sorts between him and his younger brother.
[ 27. November 2012, 14:35: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on
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If you could design your own house church, what would you do?
What would you like your children to learn about God, or about being Christian, and what are ways that they can learn/practice/do those things?
[ 27. November 2012, 14:48: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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Our two daughters were brought up in a vicarage and had to come to church every Sunday whether we or they liked it or not. They never showed a great deal of enthusiasm although they were both admitted to communion (not confirmed) when they were about 8. Once they became teenagers we were happy to leave them at home. Now, aged 28 and 25, they are happily cynical non-attenders, although they are keen to come with us to Midnight Mass at Christmas.
Both of them however are keen to defend the Church, and Christianity, in conversation with their friends. They love the sitcom Rev because it resonates with their own experience. They have both got a strong sense of justice and solidarity with the underdog. Neither of them would describe themselves as 'committed Christians', but they understand the Gospel message a lot better than many such do. I'm not too bothered about their external observances and I dare to think that God isn't either.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
If you could design your own house church, what would you do?
What would you like your children to learn about God, or about being Christian, and what are ways that they can learn/practice/do those things?
What a very good question. I wish I knew the answers. I mean, I could easily enough design something that suits ME, but your second paragraph is far more challenging.
Perhaps to a certain extent Son #1's problem is that he's exactly like me - lots of knowledge about Christianity (and he has; always the one with the answers at a Sunday School) but lacking a certain enthusiasm. Me, I just think it should matter, somehow; he of course doesn't.
He's very introverted; we both are. I wonder if it's harder to enthuse introverts by means of the environment in which you place them?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Karl
I understand that prior to the invention of the Sunday School, children were often not expected to attend church at all. Their parents were meant to supervise their Christian education at home. I don't know if that helps, but perhaps it's better to devote time to that rather than trying to get them to sit still in church.
You've said you don't hang out with Christians to do 'Christian' stuff. Does this mean you don't do small groups? Perhaps if the children saw adult Christians praying or discussing the Bible in a less threatening environment, i.e. at home, they'd find it more tolerable. It would seem like part of their family routine, rather than a disruption to their routine.
I hope you find a solution!
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
As much as you can, hang out as a family with Christians in other, more social situations...
Except we don't. Not hanging around with Christians per se. I mean, we hang around with some people who happen to be Christians, but that's it really. I can't think, really, how we would do so.
Oh, I just meant spending time with people who happen to be Christians. Helping each other out, having fun together, serving your community together. But I'd agree with SvitlanaV2 about small / cell / home groups being good as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Making a general point here, but I think it's important not to over-emphasise the couple of hours we might spend in a church service each week, at the expense of all the rest of the time we spend doing other things. Christianity is a whole-life thing, after all, right?
Yeah, but there's not really a specifically Christian way of boarding the loft, doing the shopping or transporting the kids to cubs, which is pretty much the sort of thing that fills up that "rest of the time."
I kinda think there is a specifically Christian way of doing those things, especially when we're doing them with others. As we share our lives with friends (Christian and not) then we create opportunities to put into practice all that stuff about considering other people's needs before our own, and about being filled with joy, peace, gentleness, patience and so on.
IMO (and my experience, to some extent) this is especially the case when we get involved in a project with other people. This could be anything really; organising a Christmas party for your neighbourhood, doing a litter-pick, getting involved in a soup kitchen. Whatever fits your interests as a family and your available time!
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I kinda think there is a specifically Christian way of doing those things, especially when we're doing them with others. As we share our lives with friends (Christian and not) then we create opportunities to put into practice all that stuff about considering other people's needs before our own, and about being filled with joy, peace, gentleness, patience and so on.
I don't want to get hellish, and I see what you are getting at, but in what way are non-Christians likely to be any worse than Christians at all this? It isn't as if non-Christian parents, or secular schools, teach children to be selfish or miserable or aggressive or impatient.
The messages we get from our money-obsessed capitalist society are quite different, I agree, but we are all subjected to this and we all have ways of resisting them.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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Has he just reached the point of rebellion - ie anything you tell him he has to do he won't want to?
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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Possibly, Zach.
A lot of what people are talking about here - small groups, bible studies and stuff - are as alien to me as they are to him.
Is that odd?
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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I suoopse it depends on the Christiantradition you are used to. Some churches place much more emphasis on the need for these.
The reason that the churches with lots of children attract lots more children, is because any group is much more attractive to children, when there are lots of other chidlren there.
Many children moan at going to church when they see it as an adult activity to which they have to attend because parents do.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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I have no idea if they still exist, but there used to be kids' clubs attached to churches where they did fun things, with just a teeny bit of Christian input (say for 10 minutes) with the rest being given over to games, films, crafts etc. If such places still exist they might be worth checking out as more appropriate to his age group than a full-length service.
The other possibility, which many people would probably disapprove of, but your situation does appear to have reached crisis point, is to allow him to do something really special eg. a particular video game he likes, with earphones, but only when he is at church. So he can look forward to it each week. You can always do the 'God' bit informally at some other time at home, but he is physically with you when you do the family thing together in Church even if his mind isn't engaged on the same things as you.
Posted by Pia (# 17277) on
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Aargh... I can't keep on top of all the different threads in different places, so have just posted something in reply to you in the Purg thread about purpose of worship. I won't repeat myself here, then, but will just say that I have two children (10 and 12). One loves church; one doesn't. One asked to be baptised and confirmed; the other claims to be an atheist. One comes with me; the other stays at home. I figure that I'd be doing more harm than good by forcing a child who doesn't want to know to come with me.
Posted by Pia (# 17277) on
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(Not Purg, Eccles... And I left it too late to edit original post. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Don't be mean to the newbie; I'm still working it all out. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
)
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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Random thoughts. I have no idea whether any of these are any good. We're on our first kid going through this stage.
My eleven yo is complaining about boredom too. To him I am saying, "Well, yes, you're right and I don't blame you. But lots of things we do are boring, like teeth brushing, homework, etc. We do them because they're good for us in the long run." (Which means of course that you need to think out precisely why church is good for him/you'all, because that's the next question you'll get.) (and in this case, you can also add "because I have a promise to keep"--which is always a good thing for kids to see parents do)
My kid looks forward to eating out before or after church on Sunday, even if it's just a pint of chocolate milk from the mini-mart. So it's a bit more tolerable.
I've given him permission to quit children's Sunday school and all other children's stuff and come to the adult discussion group instead provided he is on his best behavior. He seems pretty pleased by this. (the adults seem to be charmed, which is sweet of them)
I've noticed the kids we tend to keep in our church are the ones who have real honest to goodness jobs that the church would fall apart without them doing (slight exaggeration,but still). Mine does altar prep and bulletin running off. My godson does the Powerpoint projector thingy. They've got an investment in the service, and they know that they would truly be missed if they weren't there to do it. And it's adult stuff, not kid-branded (like acolyting is in our denom). Of course, the trouble is getting the adults to allow such a level of responsibility to young ones...
We do the Christian life outside-of-church stuff too, when we visit sick people, help with paperwork, etc. and I try to remember to identify those occasions as Christian service so it doesn't just whoosh by him as another boring thing Mom and Dad do, I don't know why.
Last, we parent by sarcasm--so when he starts getting stroppy with me I roll my eyes and say, "Yes, I drag you here because I love to torture you EVERY SINGLE WEEK, it's just the delight of my heart, and my only regret is I haven't been able to find an even more effective way of making you miserable, oh dear..."
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I kinda think there is a specifically Christian way of doing those things, especially when we're doing them with others...
I don't want to get hellish, and I see what you are getting at, but in what way are non-Christians likely to be any worse than Christians at all this? It isn't as if non-Christian parents, or secular schools, teach children to be selfish or miserable or aggressive or impatient.
Well, if there's any truth in this Christianity thing then I should think those who claim to follow it should, on the whole, be good people. People that others like to be around.
Obviously, Christians fail at this in myriad ways, but God is supposed to be at work transforming us, changing the way we thing, moulding us into people who exhibit love, joy, peace, patience etc. in the way we do things. And I was just suggesting that these characteristics can best be seen (to the extent that someone has them) when people are in close community with one another, doing the stuff of life together.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I suoopse it depends on the Christiantradition you are used to. Some churches place much more emphasis on the need for these.
The reason that the churches with lots of children attract lots more children, is because any group is much more attractive to children, when there are lots of other chidlren there.
Many children moan at going to church when they see it as an adult activity to which they have to attend because parents do.
Yes; alien is possibly the wrong word. Unappealing might be a better one. I've loathed extempore prayer for as long as I've been familiar with it.
I'm drawing towards the conclusion that he's 8 going on 14 - there's a lot of "why should I? It's not fair!" about it. TBH we're getting the same challenging of bedtime.
Posted by Pia (# 17277) on
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I meant to add to my post, Karl, that I only started (re-started, that is, after a very long absence) going to church when my two were 8 and 10, so this was not something that they had always done and always seen their parents doing. Also, my other half is vehemently atheist. This has conditioned my attitude towards not making the older one come if she doesn't want to - although I always give her the opportunity to come if she wants to.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, if there's any truth in this Christianity thing then I should think those who claim to follow it should, on the whole, be good people. People that others like to be around.
Obviously, Christians fail at this in myriad ways, but God is supposed to be at work transforming us, changing the way we thing, moulding us into people who exhibit love, joy, peace, patience etc. in the way we do things. And I was just suggesting that these characteristics can best be seen (to the extent that someone has them) when people are in close community with one another, doing the stuff of life together.
Well yes, I said I didn't want to get hellish and I agree with you really. The Gospel should be a transformative power in our lives. I'm just wary of the sort of exclusive attitude (not yours, I hasten to add) which leads some Christians only to associate with fellow-believers and, for example, seek out a 'Christian' plumber rather than a good one.
To relate this to the OP, it would be better for children to relate to people from all sorts of backgrounds and, from a perspective of the Christian values instilled by parents, to discern the good and bad in everyone. Whether part of that instilling consists of enforced attendance at worship, or just letting them absorb your values from the way you relate to them and live as a family, is what we are discussing. Our daughters have been able to see that prayer and worship are important to us and so they respect that; it may be that they are drawn back to formal involvement in the church or it may not. It's in God's hands.
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm just wary of the sort of exclusive attitude (not yours, I hasten to add) which leads some Christians only to associate with fellow-believers and, for example, seek out a 'Christian' plumber rather than a good one.
Oh yeah, absolutely! I was trying to emphasise the community aspect (as opposed to always doing things just with the family), not meaning that Christians should spend as much of their lives as possible in ghettos of the faithful. Got to get the yeast into the dough, right?!
Posted by Ruudy (# 3939) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I understand that prior to the invention of the Sunday School, children were often not expected to attend church at all. Their parents were meant to supervise their Christian education at home.
Wow. In what culture? And where did you learn this? I have never heard this before.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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Older congregation members have told me thev same thing. Children did not attend church until they could sit still and not make any noise. Under 5's would never go...
One said she and her husband would attend different services until the children were old enough.
Also children often attended Sunday school in the afternoon instead.
Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on
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Sunday Scools when they were first started were never meant to be Christian indoctrination sessions.
They were opportunities for children cut off from all education to be given the basics.
In a Christian context.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Sunday Scools when they were first started were never meant to be Christian indoctrination sessions.
They were opportunities for children cut off from all education to be given the basics.
In a Christian context.
I'm not going back that far - the time I am talking about Sunday achool was definitley the place that children had their christian education away from church
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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And how much of this is the reason that in the main, when those children grew up, they didn't remain churchgoers?
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
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Bribe him!
One or two pounds if he takes it like a man and goes without moaning. Let him take books to read or colour in.
Just as long as he's there the words will go in.
I think most of us have to accept that our sons will stop going at some point when they are too cool - 13 to 17 or so. But if the words have sunk in, then they might return when they are ready.
One woman at our church doesn't force her 15 year old son to go except for Christmas day and Easter Day. It's a compromise that keeps the threads stretched but intact.
My lad is 10 and he's exactly the same Karl, so you are not alone. They get bored and to be frank, for a young boy it is boring, and it always has been boring, and I reckon it's worth a couple of quid for them.
Or you could just tell him he's going anyway, and when he complains that it is boring, tell him it's character building. They love that!
Seriously, try bribery. I'm not joking.
Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on
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With the Baby Boom and all that, it made sense to gather the children together for Christian Education. Giving over responsibility for that aspect of life did make a difference in whether or not faith was "caught".
Now that many churches have had a period of time with very few children, the door is wide open for more creative looks at faith formation. The home is still ground zero. Anything else should be extra.
If you are engaging a competitive child in a discussion where winning means staying home or being miserable at church, he will win.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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They stopped staying on when we started providing Sunday School during worship to entertain them. They never made the transistion to staying into the main service all the way through.
Jengie
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
They stopped staying on when we started providing Sunday School during worship to entertain them. They never made the transistion to staying into the main service all the way through.
Jengie
It's a real bind isn't it? At some point we seem to have to say "and now it's time for you to do the normal boring church."
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on
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for a suggestion about attitude.
Try "A better idea than youth ministry"
Is there anyone who regularly attends who might pay some attention to the boy? Listen to him, at least, or in some way make him feel "wanted"? Or is there someone who would feel better if the boy paid attention to him/her? This might involve some communication outside "church" time, such as taking the bulletin (and doughnuts!) around to a shut-in, a person that your boy feels some connection to by his own choice. Or your boy could try videoing the service for said shut-in, which would teach some skills as well.
...or whatever. Scope for some creative discussion among the adults.
Try to give him some role that he feels he has helped to choose.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
A lot of what people are talking about here - small groups, bible studies and stuff - are as alien to me as they are to him.
Is that odd?
I'm not an expert on small groups. It's just that, since engagement with the life and work of faith goes against so much of the wider culture, parents need to provide a lot of imput to make the Christian faith and the worshipping life seem particularly meaningful to their children. And the inclincation to give up is even stronger for boys and young men than for girls and women.
The old-fashioned idea that 'it takes a whole village to raise a child' probably means it's very helpful to have a support network of strong Christians of both sexes that the children feel close to, people they see consciously trying to follow Jesus in every day life.
I don't have kids, but in my denomination it's clear to see that there are going to be serious problems in the future due to the lack of children coming through.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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KLB - I feel for you. Went through a bit of the same with one of mine. And problem was not helped by other parent only coming once in a blue moon.
He'd had a job as a sidesman - liked it but grew out of it, basically decided it was all too dull. Loathed the supposedly child-friendly family service in particular (in fact both did) but would go to Matins.
Another problem was that most of his friends were at a rugby session that he wanted to go to.
I asked if there was any one thing about any of the services that he liked: said the music - some of the hymns, never the setting, but almost without exception liked choral music.
Cut a long saga short: did a deal that he could do choral evensong - either at own church or elsewhere - if he preferred or go to 8am said BCP. He tried both and tended to do the 8am BCP in the summer and evensong in the winter.
The big thing was that he was able to do the sport with mates.
Now older, he's still far more into the music than what some might think "the message".
But perhaps that is something for another debate: is the modern trend towards congregational music throughout and crappy choruses ignoring/not catering for those who find God through music?
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruudy:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I understand that prior to the invention of the Sunday School, children were often not expected to attend church at all. Their parents were meant to supervise their Christian education at home.
Wow. In what culture? And where did you learn this? I have never heard this before.
I believe this was quite normal in Scotland pre World War One. Fathers went to the morning service, while the mother stayed at home with the children. Mothers went to the evening service, leaving the children at home with the father. It was part of the reason churches had two Sunday services.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
Is there something he could do? We try to get boys involved in operating the computery-thing at the back with all the switches for the sound system and which which projects the words of the hymns onto the screen. (She said, vaguely) We have a rota; it was a 13 year old boy last week, and we have slightly younger boys on the rota.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
quote:
Is there something he could do? We try to get boys involved in operating the computery-thing at the back with all the switches for the sound system and which which projects the words of the hymns onto the screen.
O please! Why is it assumed that because they're male they're into "computers"? WHY?
If you really want to try appealing to boys - especially 8+ - you'd do better to have a sports team and give them something they WANT to do rather than something you think they OUGHT TO WANT to do.
As for Sunday School, a wise old priest I knew used to deliver this at baptisms: Please don't send your children to Sunday School: there is almost no better method of inoculating a child against faith, worship and religion than to send it to a place where the parents never go. I reckon that sums it up neatly.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
erm - l'organist - I take the point about assumption, but in this case it's spot on the money. He's not that interested in sports (more than I am, but that's not saying much) but is computer obsessed.
Can I also point out that assuming a sports team would appeal to 8+ boys is just as much an assumption as assuming they'd be into computers is?
Incidently, there's been quite a lot about the failings of Sunday Schools, and I also take those points, but the question thereby raised is what do we do instead?
[ 30. November 2012, 10:45: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
quote:
Is there something he could do? We try to get boys involved in operating the computery-thing at the back with all the switches for the sound system and which which projects the words of the hymns onto the screen.
O please! Why is it assumed that because they're male they're into "computers"? WHY?
If you really want to try appealing to boys - especially 8+ - you'd do better to have a sports team and give them something they WANT to do rather than something you think they OUGHT TO WANT to do.
As for Sunday School, a wise old priest I knew used to deliver this at baptisms: Please don't send your children to Sunday School: there is almost no better method of inoculating a child against faith, worship and religion than to send it to a place where the parents never go. I reckon that sums it up neatly.
Well, computery stuff worked for my son, whereas a sports team would have been a positive discouragement. And we do have boys who are actively keen to be trained to use the equipment.
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on
:
And operating some of the gadgetry well, and receiving positive feedback about that, is a significant boost to the person doing it. Plus it would give him introduction to those in the congo who can mange to approve of such things (one hopes the grumblers, the ones who "can't see why they let a kid get in the way", would get out of the way themselves)
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Last, we parent by sarcasm--so when he starts getting stroppy with me I roll my eyes and say, "Yes, I drag you here because I love to torture you EVERY SINGLE WEEK, it's just the delight of my heart, and my only regret is I haven't been able to find an even more effective way of making you miserable, oh dear..."
This is one of the single greatest perks of parenthood (along with embarrassing your kids in front of their friends.)
My favorite line was, "Because I am mean and cruel and heartless and I never let you go anywhere and I never let you do anything fun."
Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Is there something he could do? We try to get boys involved in operating the computery-thing at the back with all the switches for the sound system and which which projects the words of the hymns onto the screen. (She said, vaguely) We have a rota; it was a 13 year old boy last week, and we have slightly younger boys on the rota.
[tangent] Why don't you involve girls in the rota? My dad bought me a ZX81 when I was 15 and now I work in IT. Computers are not just for boys. [tangent off]
[ 01. December 2012, 17:05: Message edited by: Starbug ]
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And how much of this is the reason that in the main, when those children grew up, they didn't remain churchgoers?
It's not a question of remaining churchgoers, in the case of these old-fashioned stand-alone Sunday Schools. I remember being sent to one as a kid in the 1950s; it met in the (church) school five minutes walk from church, at 2 in the afternoon. None of us ever went to church in the morning... the most exposure to worship we had was singing a hymn and saying a prayer every week (just like we did in ordinary school during the week), or a very occasional 'children's service' when we were taken over to church and sang more than one hymn and the vicar got dressed up.
That was hardly a practice of 'churchgoing' that we could continue or not. The reason I got involved in church, as a late teen, had nothing whatsoever to do with Sunday School. Indeed I was reluctant to get involved at first, probably because of that experience.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Is there something he could do? We try to get boys involved in operating the computery-thing at the back with all the switches for the sound system and which which projects the words of the hymns onto the screen. (She said, vaguely) We have a rota; it was a 13 year old boy last week, and we have slightly younger boys on the rota.
[tangent] Why don't you involve girls in the rota? My dad bought me a ZX81 when I was 15 and now I work in IT. Computers are not just for boys. [tangent off]
Anyone can sign up for any rota. I don't know why the girls don't go onto the AV rota. We have a fairly small number of teens, and most, if not all, the girls play a instrument and are involved in the musical side of things.
Also, the teenage girls are all keen to help with the younger children in creche and junior Sunday School; this can translate into getting financially-useful babysitting opportunities.
It's an interesting point, Starbug, I'm not sure whether there is a gender thing going on, or if it just happens that our current batch of teens has musical girls and techy boys.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
:
in one of our churches the system is manned by a rota of young old male and female. It keeps the teenagers involved but hads also given an older man an 'in' to church.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
We try to get boys involved in operating the computery-thing at the back with all the switches for the sound system...
[tangent] Why don't you involve girls in the rota?...Computers are not just for boys. [tangent off]
Anyone can sign up for any rota. I don't know why the girls don't go onto the AV rota.
There's often social pressure keeping the girls out. And the several places (little theaters) that I've expressed interest in learning sound board I've been told no even while they advertised wanting people to come learn, so there's a number of existing sound board people who assume it's a guy thing.
Come to think of it, I don't recall ever seeing a female doing it. No reason they shouldn't and I hope there are churches, theaters, music venues where girls are routinely involved. It's a useful skill, and pays pretty well for working little theaters and concerts.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
I really don't think there's any social pressure keeping the girls off the AV. We have two adult women who can do it. My daughter has been trained and can do it, and she will step in if someone's off ill, but she prefers helping with the creche.
I ran this passed my daughter and she doesn't think the AV is gendered; in fact her opinion was that our music side is so dominated by women, it might put boys off that. She pointed out that she's seen women on the AV, but she's never seen a man play our church organ.
I was trying to suggest things that work in our church, to keep young people coming. I think we have a dip in interest in late primary, and then a bit of a resurgence once they are in their teens and have specific roles, such as AV, or running a Fair Trade chocolate stall at after-church coffee, or helping with creche, or playing music. Our numbers of young people are low, though. We have about a dozen in Sunday School (i.e. primary school age) and about a dozen teens, not all of whom come every week. They do turn up when they're on the rota for something, though.
The single largest age group in my church is the over-65s.
Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on
:
If nobody else is staying home from church and he's too young to stay home on his own, just tell him that. It's just one of those annoying facts, like having to be dragged round a supermarket when you're little, or having to sit through truly dire school performances when you're a parent.
If someone's genuinely free to stay home with him without any inconvenience to them, let him stay home. I wouldn't get hung up about maintaining the promise to take him to church if you know it's putting him off.
Sorry if this sounds cynical, but I'd be surpised if you find any form of worship that he likes at this age. He's obviously bright and very much an individual. If he doesn't relate to religious ritual and dislikes noise, the only attraction left is intellectual challenge, and that's a non-starter; he's probably bright enough to roll his eyes at a dumbed down sermon, but he's too young for a particularly intellectual one, and I'd guess he hates Sunday School with a passion. Mine did (PM me if you want to discuss that further; I don't want to fill the thread with my own anecdotes, and it would be unfair as some shipmates know my daughter quite well).
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
Just wondering, if he is really so much of an individual, whether he would benefit from really quite grown-up discussions about faith from you at home? If you show you respect his opinions and answer his observations honestly, you may well be setting up a good bank of memories for his future of faith, even if it doesn't seem that productive at the moment.
(I did that with one of my very questioning sons and he ended up reading Theology at University. So you never can tell....)
[ 06. December 2012, 20:35: Message edited by: Chorister ]
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
Oh, we discuss stuff ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I got a wry smile when he looked distraught at the idea of going to Church on Christmas Day (our local shack has not generally run a Christmas Morning service) and I pointed out that it didn't seem too out of place, with everything he got out of Christmas, to spend half an hour reminding ourselves why Christmas exists.
Actually, he quite likes Sunday Schools - you'd think not, but I think it's because he can answer all the questions that get asked and he loves demonstrating that he knows stuff. My concern is even where they exist they are too thin a gruel (as the popular phrase on here seems to be at the moment) for him.
Which leads me on to Angloid's point. I actually do have reservations about Sunday Schools, as I've blogged before. Especially the disconnect between SS and the church itself. I'm bonkers enough to think it ought to be possible for a child to grow up in a Christian family with a habit of churchgoing that smoothly morphs into adult discipleship. The unbridged gap between colouring in sheets, cutting and sticking, puppet drama and singing "Tha-a-a-a-ank you Lord for..." and a Sung Eucharist with bells, smells and funny clothes is a bit of a hindrance to that model.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I really don't think there's any social pressure keeping the girls off the AV. We have two adult women who can do it. My daughter has been trained and can do it, and she will step in if someone's off ill, but she prefers helping with the creche.
I ran this passed my daughter and she doesn't think the AV is gendered; in fact her opinion was that our music side is so dominated by women, it might put boys off that. She pointed out that she's seen women on the AV, but she's never seen a man play our church organ.
I was trying to suggest things that work in our church, to keep young people coming. I think we have a dip in interest in late primary, and then a bit of a resurgence once they are in their teens and have specific roles, such as AV, or running a Fair Trade chocolate stall at after-church coffee, or helping with creche, or playing music. Our numbers of young people are low, though. We have about a dozen in Sunday School (i.e. primary school age) and about a dozen teens, not all of whom come every week. They do turn up when they're on the rota for something, though.
The single largest age group in my church is the over-65s.
Until we started going to the local place nine years ago, pretty much the only age group there was the over-65s.
Now I fear it is once again. We'd have bitten arms off to get a dozen semi-regular attenders at the Sunday School. We had five, and three of them were ours.
This may never have been sustainable; I often think the Rector saw the inevitable but handled it very badly. What bugs me is that this is a parish church in a suburban village with lots of young families and children, but the church has no idea how to even begin to address their needs.
[ 06. December 2012, 21:55: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Which leads me on to Angloid's point. I actually do have reservations about Sunday Schools, as I've blogged before. Especially the disconnect between SS and the church itself. I'm bonkers enough to think it ought to be possible for a child to grow up in a Christian family with a habit of churchgoing that smoothly morphs into adult discipleship. The unbridged gap between colouring in sheets, cutting and sticking, puppet drama and singing "Tha-a-a-a-ank you Lord for..." and a Sung Eucharist with bells, smells and funny clothes is a bit of a hindrance to that model.
For my daughters, what filled the gap was youth group. Most people go through a period of questioning their faith after they outgrow childhood. They need a place where they can talk about what's on their minds. The youth group was led by people who liked teenagers and accepted them as they were.
Moo
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
Karl,
quote:
What bugs me is that this is a parish church in a suburban village with lots of young families and children, but the church has no idea how to even begin to address their needs.
This is what we do:
a) run SU in the village primary school for 10-12 year olds.
b) run the older equivalent in the secondary school the village kids attend.
c) in Feb there's the Thinking Day service for the Scouts and Guides, which also brings in the kids' parents
d) a Saturday Easter Egg Hunt which attracts 100+ kids, who are willing to sit and listen to 20 mins story in order to tear round looking for creme eggs after.
e)in summer we run a week long holiday club, which attracts up to 40 primary-school age kids.
f)Girls' Brigade and Boys' Brigade Promotion services. (We have a healthy Boys' Brigade and a smaller Girls' Brigade attached to the church.)
g) Christingle Service. Carols by Candlelight service. Both packed to the rafters by young families.
h) Day time toddler service near Christmas, at which each toddler is given a Christmas story Board Book - well attended.
We have an excellent Youth Group which meets on a Sunday evening, with all our dozen or so teens.
And what do we have on an "average" Sunday? About 8 kids in Sunday School, plus whichever teens are on the various rotas.
quote:
What bugs me is that this is a parish church in a suburban village with lots of young families and children, but the church has no idea how to even begin to address their needs.
We try very hard, but we have no idea either. We have hundreds of kids passing through the church at various points in the year, but an average Sunday?
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
I never had Sunday School as such. I did go to a Crusader group (as they were known then), but that was from the age of 11 - before that I had no contact with the church except a couple of weddings. The Crusader group was sort of like church - Sunday morning was a time singing songs, a few prayers, a Scripture reading and short talk. But, it was a) only half an hour followed by some question answer discussion and sometime craft stuff and b) was age segregated (we had juniors and seniors, I think 9-13 and 14+) and at the time it was all boys. For several years I went to the Crusader meeting Sunday morning and then home. It was when I was 13 that I started with the Youth Fellowship at the local Methodist church, and that got me into going to church - initially the evening service; the YF met straight afterwards, and most of us went to the service so there were a dozen or so young adults there and the the service reflected that. But, by the time I had turned 15 I biked to the morning service after the end of the Crusader meeting.
So, I would say that for me it was a youth fellowship that met at a time other than during a service that was what got me moving from a child-only group to church services. But, it had to be something that was running at a different time than the services so there was chance to do church and the YF (for that matter, with the Crusader group meeting early Sunday there was time to do that and morning service too).
The biggest problem I see with the current standard practice of Sunday School during the service is that the kids don't have the option of doing both on a regular basis. Which also has the nightmare of the "family service" when there is no SS that's not like any other service either. The other day we were reading a childs Bible, and had got to the Last Supper, and my son declared that he enjoys Sunday School and Communion - and normally he won't be able to do both because our SS runs from just just after the childrens address to the end of the service, although we had talked to our new minister and she wants to bring the SS back in for Communion, at least some weeks.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
:
We run Sunday school during the first part of the service - the children go out and have teaching on the same reading that the main church are doing.
They come back in at the peace and tell us what they have been doing - this is to reinforce to them main congregation that the children are part of the family of God too.
There are a just a couple of older children - 11 and 12 who move in and out from SS to church, depending what rota they are on and whether sunday school or main church is more attractive to them that day.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
If he dislikes religious ritual and noise, then what about a Quaker meeting? Has he tried meditation or similar things? I know some Quaker meetings run children's meetings alongside, which might have more interesting discussions for him. The history of nonconformism and doing things differently might be interesting to him.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
This isn't having a go at you, but Son #1 at a Quaker meeting?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I don't think it's noise he has a problem with - our service isn't noisy anyway. Background ambient music, no congregational singing, no worship bands (may God be praised) or organs. Nah, the fingers in ears stuff was his way of saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
He might be better this time anyway; the church realised that kids were getting a bit fractious in the gathering before the service, not to mention during the meal afterwards, so they stuck Ratatouille on the video screen before and after. He liked that aspect.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
Yesterday, as well as some praying and that*, our service involved:
A clip from Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em (I kid you not)
A series of clips from Dr Who
A video from vintage Blue Peter wrt the making of advent crowns from tinsel and coat hangars. Yes - you all know the ones!
He won't admit it, but he started at the very edge of the chapel and by the end his nose was almost touching the bread.
Positive, I think. He helped put up the Christmas trees afterwards.
*probably his perspective
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