Thread: Is it only bullying if there is no escape? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
On a recent Styx thread, there seemed to be different streams of thoughts from several posters on whether or not bullying takes place if one has the option to simply walk away. With some hesitation, I have decided to not link to that thread, as much there was written in context (anyone who disagrees is, of course, free to add a link) I thought this issue might merit its own discussion, hopefully without replaying the Styx thread.

So, what constitutes bullying?
If one can not escape it, such as in a schoolyard or an employment situation, perhaps it is easy to see a power imbalance or being outnumbered and persistently oppressed as being bullied.
But what about on a discussion board, where one can walk away?
How about in a business situation, where it is possible to take one's business elsewhere?
If an obnoxious drunk in a bar or restaurant causes you to leave without finishing your meal, have you been bullied, or simply used your own choice and best judgment?
If someone curses nonstop on a bus, and the words are offensive to you, have you been bullied or simply irritated?
Where do you draw the line between someone behaving in a disagreeable manner and bullying?
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:

Where do you draw the line between someone behaving in a disagreeable manner and bullying?
Bullying is when you are singled out for wrath by someone who can harm you far easier than you can harm them and it is difficult or impossible to get away from the bad situation.
 
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
It can look like you walked away when you're actually driven away, too. If someone were singled out and harassed on this or another web forum until they could only escape it by leaving, I'd say that's bullying!

After all, in much real-life bullying, the effect is to manipulate someone's behavior so they "walk away" in some sense. You could be bullied at work, for example, if co-workers or superiors make your life difficult every time you bring up some issue, so that you either censor yourself or quit your job in order to escape it.

Once you're no longer a kid on a fenced-in playground, there's rarely a scenario where you can't "walk away" in some sense, I think. It's just that, as the bully knows, you find the alternative - whether it be quitting a job, divorcing an abusive spouse, finding a new church, or just keeping your mouth shut - less of an option than enduring the bullying.

Pointing out that someone could "walk away," IMO, can be a valuable weapon in the bully's arsenal. It trivializes the abuse and makes the person being bullied look and feel weak. It wrongly places responsibility for the situation fully on the shoulders of the victim.

ETA: One of the more difficult aspects in real-life bullying is that it's probably rarely done in a way that leaves a record/evidence trail - by email, e.g. Usually it's going to be your word against the bully's, and often they will have been deftly manipulating others to think of them as a saint. At least on the web, with the exception of PMs, there's a very public record.

[ 14. October 2012, 20:43: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
 
Posted by Ruudy (# 3939) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Pointing out that someone could "walk away," IMO, can be a valuable weapon in the bully's arsenal. It trivializes the abuse and makes the person being bullied look and feel weak. It wrongly places responsibility for the situation fully on the shoulders of the victim.
Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. I remember the exchange on the other thread mentioned by the OP. I thought it ridiculous to say that the ability of the victim to "walk away" necessarily meant the aggressor's behavior was not bullying.

Bullying is often used to alienate/marginalize someone who does not have to be a part of a group but who wants to be assimilated into the group and is being kept from doing so.
 
Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
Who, then, decides whether a situation is bullying or disagreement?
The one declaring themselves as bullied?
The community in its response?
The thought police?
Who makes this assessment, and how?
If, for example, someone places racist comments on your Facebook page, knowing that you as a person of colour will find them offensive, is that bullying or being a jerk?
If someone follows your comments on this page with sexist comments, is that bullying, or being a jerk?
 
Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :
 
My workplace has a Dignity atWork policy, which legislates for cases of bullying and harassment. This states that the perception of e victom is the deciding factor, not the imtent of the perpetrator. I think this is intended to stop bullies saying 'oh, I disn't mean it like that - he/she can't take a joke'.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
My workplace has a Dignity atWork policy, which legislates for cases of bullying and harassment. This states that the perception of e victom is the deciding factor, not the imtent of the perpetrator. I think this is intended to stop bullies saying 'oh, I disn't mean it like that - he/she can't take a joke'.
Yeah, but "victims" are every bit as foul as "bullies." There is a woman in our church who has been "hurt" by virtually everyone who has ever walked within a hundred yards of her. She expects folks to kowtow to her "feelings" in a way that seems an awful lot like bullying to everyone around her. Adding to her power really would not be a good idea to my mind.

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ruudy:
Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. I remember the exchange on the other thread mentioned by the OP. I thought it ridiculous to say that the ability of the victim to "walk away" necessarily meant the aggressor's behavior was not bullying.
I said my piece in the sense of me walking away because someone is being a jerk or boor and I don't want to hear it, not in the sense of letting someone run me off because I'm afraid of them. If we were school kids and I was smacking you around on the play ground then I would be a bully even if you could leave. Someone's got to have the ability to harm in order to be a bully, istm.

[ 14. October 2012, 21:29: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
 
Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 
Necessary but not sufficient for bullying are:

An imbalance of power / A feeling of powerlessness
Offensive behaviour that cannot be ignored
The absence of a realistic escape route

The last is very nuanced; for many people in practice the option of leaving the situation is NOT available, however much it would seem to be a solution. The classic example of this is domestic violence where the perp has so messed with the victim's head that they are unable to cope with the situation. I suspect however it's actually more common than we allow for; forces of culture, self definition and absence of self esteem will often make it hard to walk away. So a definition that focuses on this element is likely to be seriously inadequate in practice.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Necessary but not sufficient for bullying are:

An imbalance of power / A feeling of powerlessness
Offensive behaviour that cannot be ignored
The absence of a realistic escape route

The last is very nuanced; for many people in practice the option of leaving the situation is NOT available, however much it would seem to be a solution. The classic example of this is domestic violence where the perp has so messed with the victim's head that they are unable to cope with the situation. I suspect however it's actually more common than we allow for; forces of culture, self definition and absence of self esteem will often make it hard to walk away. So a definition that focuses on this element is likely to be seriously inadequate in practice.
It seems to me that on that last one it is bullying if the bad guy thought he had run you off because you were afraid. If he is sitting there after you left figuring you weren't afraid but just disgusted then, whatever he did, he didn't get away with bullying.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I'm going to suggest another element--repeated pattern of behavior over time. Otherwise I could call the case of our church member who got jumped, beaten and concussed in an alley last week could call that "bullying," though it was a one time event. (of course I'd call it assault and possibly attempted murder)

My personal preference would be to keep the word's meaning a bit narrow, because words get to be sort of useless when they start being used for everything. Like "gentleman." The word used to refer to a particular class of society, got expanded to refer to anyone who tried to behave in a classy way, and now is used in a zillion settings including the courtroom, for convicted felons! The only thing it tells me reliably any more is that the person is male.

I wouldn't want to see the word "bully" go that route. We already have words like conflict, antagonize, anger, assault, treat unfairly, discriminate, intimidate, attack... At least now, when I use the word to describe real life stuff my family's been involved in, people pretty much know what I mean. Even if the borders of the word's meaning are fuzzy.
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
Escape must be defined very broadly if it is to be applied to bullying.

In Lamb Chopped's example, perhaps the individual was trapped in a community by financial, familial, or cultural circumstances.

In the case of a student, escape from a bullying incident may be possible, but escape from school may not be a viable option. One could drop out, but that can hardly be considered escape.

[ 14. October 2012, 22:59: Message edited by: Olaf ]
 
Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :
 
The one crucial marker of a bully is that their shit doesn't smell. Ever. It is always the target's problem.

I walked away from an abusive relationship last year. I had to do it by letter and move my stuff out in one go, because it was impossible for me to leave in the decent way by saying to their face that the relationship was over. I had attempted that on two occasions and was stonewalled into submission. I was the only person that my former partner saw apart from her father on anything more than a monthly basis, and she had put a lot of effort into constructing this Ms Perfect image, which frayed considerably at the edges for me when I had to deal with her wrath over my attempts to iron sheets and dust the corners of the rooms.

A bully is very intuitive and understands the strengths and weaknesses of their target. If you are intelligent and compassionate they will do their best to manipulate you into doing their will. I was living in Bristol, but my partner manipulated me into not travelling to London to my brother and family, except on one disastrous occasion, over the ten months I lived with her, to ensure that I was kept under her control.

The last two months, when I realised that I was being manipulated by a woman with serious mental health issues were hellish and I never want to go through with that again.
 
Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :
 
Just to add there were other issues rather than ironing and dusting involved.. going into a trance and deciding that I had been a Scottish warrior beheaded at the Battle of Bannockburn was one, another was showing me a New Age video, featuring a former Irish cleric who I knew to be fradulent and proclaiming him to me as some kind of guru was another, attempting to get me to bully my parents into buying me out of a negative equity property..etc etc
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
One may be able to walk away but it is harder to clear one's head from the words spoken by a bully. They can rattle around for decades and impair self-esteem.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Walking away is irrelevant.

The distinctive thing about bullying (as opposed to plain ordinary abuse, persecution, or violence) is that the bully does it to reinforce their social status. To prove to themseves, or to others around them, that they are superior to the victim. So if the victim runs away the bully has won. And they'll probably go on to pick on someone else next time.

That doesn't mean running away might not be a good idea - if you need to do it to save yourself, do it. But its pointless to prestend that escaping from a bully means that there is no bullying going on.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Yeah, but "victims" are every bit as foul as "bullies."
I hope that "are" was a kind of shorthand for "might sometimes be".

Or are you really denying that bullying happens and that there are bullies and victims?
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:

The distinctive thing about bullying (as opposed to plain ordinary abuse, persecution, or violence) is that the bully does it to reinforce their social status. To prove to themselves, or to others around them, that they are superior to the victim. So if the victim runs away the bully has won. And they'll probably go on to pick on someone else next time.
I agree 100%. But a much better word than 'victim' is target. Victim implies weakness.

Bullies are very often jealous of their targets, so it's often popular, clever and strong people who are targeted. They will have a vulnerability which the bully exploits.

[ 15. October 2012, 18:36: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Yeah, but "victims" are every bit as foul as "bullies."
I hope that "are" was a kind of shorthand for "might sometimes be".

Or are you really denying that bullying happens and that there are bullies and victims?
Not at all. I am saying that the fixes are often worse than the problem, because the manipulations go both ways. While it is true that the operative notion includes "might" or the like, rules that are put in place are never flexible, and the tidal wave of anti-bullying propoganda coming from schools and such right now is likely to be very destructive.

I moved at least once a year when I was a boy. As the new kind in school, I was not unfamiliar with being the recipient of unwanted attention by aggressive kids. But I seriously doubt that the world is made a better place by injecting adults with a bureacratic mind-set into the equation.

Part of growing up is learning how to cope with people who don't have your best interests at heart. It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where nobody was unkind, but we don't. Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.

--Tom Clune

[ 15. October 2012, 18:55: Message edited by: tclune ]
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
Have a look at my links, above, they are well worth a read - and I think that you'll see why 'weakness' isn't the problem for the targets of bullies. The bully is the weak and insecure person.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
Have a look at my links, above, they are well worth a read - and I think that you'll see why 'weakness' isn't the problem for the targets of bullies. The bully is the weak and insecure person.
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
tclune, I can't help feeling that you're overstating your case a bit. Of course, there's the normal mockery of the geek that happens everywhere. I was that geek. It was really just irritating and a bit embarrassing.

But then there's full on bullying which is marked by a whole other level of protracted malice and sadistic intentionality. That stuff is really dangerous.
 
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Who, then, decides whether a situation is bullying or disagreement?
The one declaring themselves as bullied?
The community in its response?
The thought police?
Who makes this assessment, and how?
If, for example, someone places racist comments on your Facebook page, knowing that you as a person of colour will find them offensive, is that bullying or being a jerk?
If someone follows your comments on this page with sexist comments, is that bullying, or being a jerk?
Working through distinctions like this is essential in arriving at definitions.

So how is bullying different from just being a jerk?

I think others have described some key elements in bullying that would distinguish it from general assholery:
How else might we distinguish bullying from just being a jerk?

What other behaviors do we want to distinguish it from? A few have been named already on this thread — assault, abuse; and given the example of a racist slur on a facebook page, I'd add hate crime. What about harassment? Is, e.g., sexual harassment a form of bullying, or is it different?

Hate crime might be a form of bullying. It has among its goals the denial of the target's personhood, citizenship, and/or fundamental rights. It is often repeated, and is used to threaten and intimidate people, to negate their voices and the choices available to them. It seeks to raise the status of the perpetrator's ingroup over and against that of the target. What do people think - is it a form of bullying, or is it entirely something else?

This is for the purpose of more clearly defining what we mean by "bullying."
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
But then there's full on bullying which is marked by a whole other level of protracted malice and sadistic intentionality. That stuff is really dangerous.
I know what bullying is. What I object to is do-gooders insisting on imposing a "process" on every social difficulty, which only serves to infantilize kids. Kids have been coping with bullies for millennia. It ain't fun, and it can be dangerous. But it is a necessary skill for living in the world. Or so ISTM. Obviously, YMMV.

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:

The distinctive thing about bullying (as opposed to plain ordinary abuse, persecution, or violence) is that the bully does it to reinforce their social status. To prove to themselves, or to others around them, that they are superior to the victim. So if the victim runs away the bully has won. And they'll probably go on to pick on someone else next time.
I agree 100%. But a much better word than 'victim' is target. Victim implies weakness.

Bullies are very often jealous of their targets, so it's often popular, clever and strong people who are targeted. They will have a vulnerability which the bully exploits.
I think that's what a lot of people miss, and it ties into the whole "bully making themselves the victim" thing. The thing is,they really do perceive themselves that way in the first place.SO they point a finger at someone else, and get everyone looking the other way.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
Have a look at my links, above, they are well worth a read - and I think that you'll see why 'weakness' isn't the problem for the targets of bullies. The bully is the weak and insecure person.
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.

--Tom Clune
Ralphie knew how to cope with a bully.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Ralphie knew how to cope with a bully.
Just one of many reasons I love that movie. BTW, I got a BB gun as a kid, and it was my favorite possession for years. As luck would have it, I never did shoot my eye out...

--Tom Clune

[ETA: It would have been illegal for me to get my kids a BB gun in this state. I can't say that I feel all that much safer because we have kept them out of the hands of 8-year-olds, but the kids are sure missing a whale of a good time.]

[ 15. October 2012, 19:46: Message edited by: tclune ]
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
But then there's full on bullying which is marked by a whole other level of protracted malice and sadistic intentionality. That stuff is really dangerous.
I know what bullying is. What I object to is do-gooders insisting on imposing a "process" on every social difficulty, which only serves to infantilize kids.
Surely infantilising kids is the best thing for them. After all, they are, um, infants. It's called protection.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Surely infantilising kids is the best thing for them. After all, they are, um, infants.
[Confused] [Confused] [Confused]

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

... The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.

--Tom Clune
[Mad] Tell that to Amanda Todd`s family. [Mad]
 
Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
Suppose, for the sake of argument, I were to decide that a fellow Shipmate has been bullying me by dropping one-liners as a followup to many of the posts I make, on a variety of threads.
By declaring myself to be a target, does that automatically make that Shipmate a bully, even if he does the same to certain others and has done so since before I joined the boards?
Or does the fact that I am irritated by this posting style and consider myself to be a target fall short of showing him to be a bully?
Obviously here, hosts decide that, but what if by proclaiming myself to be a target, I am permitted thereby to paint him as a bully?
Could the possibility exist that I, not he, was the unreasonable one?
There may have to be shades of grey regarding this issue, and I am not certain those shades of grey are being recognized by all posters here.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Bullying is always wrong, but it's just about impossible to prevent all of it, just as it's impossible to prevent all theft. It does need to be made clear that it is unacceptable. I think the present concern with bullying is a backlash from the other extreme, which prevailed for many years.

Back then, kids were expected to adjust to the group, and if they were bullied, the problem was that they had failed to adjust. One of my daughters was teased mercilessly because she had eye problems and had to wear dark glasses.

Back before the kids were expected to adjust, the adults imposed rules on how they were supposed to treat each other. Most kids liked the rules, and they told bullies to pick on someone their own size. That's what it was like when I was a child, and it would be nice if we could get back to that.

Moo
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

... The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.

--Tom Clune
[Mad] Tell that to Amanda Todd`s family. [Mad]
Well, since you put a couple of angry emoticons on your post and invoked a sad story, I must be wrong.

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.

--Tom Clune
Well... with most other social skills kids have to learn, they receive endless support and teaching (or drilling) from adults: everything from "please" and "thank you", to how to make the guest list for the birthday party, to behavior on a date. I don't see how it's different to give them support with learning how to respond to a bully, and how not to be a bully yourself. We help them manage their sadness, excitement, envy. Why not aggression and fear?

Also, when bullying escalates to behavior that would actually be criminal if an adult did it, we shouldn't blame the victim for needing help. You wouldn't expect an adult to fight a pack of muggers to get his own wallet back- he would call the police.

I agree that school anti-bullying programs will probably be worse than useless if they're the same type I was subjected to as a kid in the 1980s and 90s: some dull authority figure spouting platitudes once a year in an assembly. Kids are very good at figuring out what rules adults actually intend to enforce.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
Also, when bullying escalates to behavior that would actually be criminal if an adult did it, we shouldn't blame the victim for needing help. You wouldn't expect an adult to fight a pack of muggers to get his own wallet back- he would call the police.
I have no problem with that. An important part of learning to cope is developing a sense of when asking for help is useful and when it will just make things worse. But it seems that the excess of this age is for adults to thrust themselves into every aspect of their kids' lives -- planning every minute of their lives, sheltering them from every knock they need to have to grow into responsible adults; insulating them from so many germs that they fail to develop any immunities of their own; etc. This anti-bullying frenzy strikes me as of a piece with that whole trend. Again, YMMV.

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Some of us read a thread like this and cannot but reflect back to our own experiences. Mine of running home as fast as possible, or if the way was blocked, hiding out until a way was clear. In those days, if a bully was caught, it was assumed it was a "fight", and at school, the strap was the answer because "the rule was the rule": "no fighting". Telling a teacher meant that it would be identified as a fight and the strap. Also schools had the policy to inform parents the strap had been given, and this always resulted in a second whipping at home.

The situation was a little different when I went away to boarding school. The usual was for 2 or 3 older boys to come into a dorm room hold another boy down and punch him repeatedly, usually in the arm, to try to create a nice big bruise. Sometimes the punches were to the body to make the boy puke. Telling a master would result in retaliation form other boys later, usually a general beating up and follow-up bullying and threats to the "rat". I recall one suicide attempt and a faked seizure while I was there. The masters at this school did not use a strap, rather 2½ or 3 foot boards over the backside. They would sooner paddle than hear explanations. I think they thought it was easier. I always wondered how 10 strokes was the general number. The paddling was always in front of the boys, usually before chapel.

I learned at boarding school that the best thing was to pick any of the attackers and punch in the face as hard, as fast and as many times as possible. This usually resulted in a severe beating, but tended to discourage repeats. There were those who did not retaliate. No other boy would ever intervene, as this brought the violence to them. I still boil when I think of that.

My take on bullying is thus coloured pretty heavily by such experiences, and thus I disagree heartily with Tclune's ideas about bullying: getting used to it. If it is your child whose being bullied, the normal instinct is protective. I have learned that I would do pretty well anything to defend mine.

Also, I think the situation is different for girls versus boys. Boys may bully girls, but they may also sexually attack and assault them. There is a fine line sometimes between bullying and rape.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
Have a look at my links, above, they are well worth a read - and I think that you'll see why 'weakness' isn't the problem for the targets of bullies. The bully is the weak and insecure person.
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.

--Tom Clune
Well, one way to take care of it is to follow the Hollywood moview cliche and bring in a big gun to as an equalizer.
Unfortunate but then, the bullies shoulud just learn to cope with the retaliation.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
We taught our boys to run - like the wind - if attacked. This strategy saved them both from stabbings, on separate and completely unrelated occasions.

I totally agree that we need allow our children to learn as well as to teach them. They need to gain resilience and immunity and discover when to stand up for themselves, when to run and when to call for help.

My only two experiences of bullying was as an adult. One was in an online 'Christian' community. I left - which I found surprisingly difficult as I'd made many friends there, but it was the right thing to do.

The other was much more serious. I was Deputy headteacher and, after two years in the job, the head started bullying me. She started on me after I defended her previous target. I had three vulnerabilities, my dad had just died, my Mum had developed dementia and I was recovering from a hysterectomy. When I stood up to her she began the process of getting rid of me. I kept records - the stuff she did in private was unbelievable while keeping up her public persona (we shared an office). When the standoff eventually arrived I put in a formal complaint of bullying and harassment. After a long investigation she lost her job.

It was a long time ago now, but I still have the occasional flashback - and, given my time again, I would have left the job asap.

I am semi retired now, but took a job in a school last year, found a bullying culture - and left after two days! I felt deeply for those members of staff who didn't have such easy choices.

(Not my present school, which has a supportive, anti-bullying culture - it's a joy to work there)

My experience of bullying as an adult has taught me two things - to spot bullying behaviour quickly and get the hell OUT of there!

(I can't imagine how hard this must be if it happens within a family [Frown] )
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I have yet to find any situation in the real world that is in any way as unpleasant as the treatment I got from some of my peers at school, and for which that treatment in any way prepared me.

I do, however, have a number of issues I'm still working through that resulted from that treatment, all of which have had a negative impact on my adult life.

Tclune speaks, I fear, of what he does not know.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
My feeling about the subject is to ask why on earth the recipient of bullying should learn to cope with it, rather than the bully being made to learn not to do it. If they don't, they go on to do it as adults (like that head teacher - funny how some of them get into that sort of position) and make life hell for others until they are in care homes. (I knew a case like that, where a bunch of nice little old ladies hauled another out of her flatlet into the corridor and laid into her, then denied it when she reported it, and were supported by the warden when she took it to the police. After all, she was known not to be normal, as her attackers were. Unfortunately for them, the attack was witnessed by the local grocer making a delivery, he was believed and the warden was moved.)

There was a piece in the Guardian, of all places, once, in which one writer said it was good for children to experience bullying at school, because it led them to understand their place in the pecking order as adults. And no-one responded. (I didn't because I couldn't find the words, being somewhat gobsmacked.)

When I suffered harassment a few years ago, it was identified as such by a member of the Met, and I found that an identification of actions as harassment depended entirely on my defining it as such, without evidence of intent on the bullies' part. I wasn't happy with that, and did not pursue the matter legally, but did write to say that their supposed amicable communications had appeared to be a campaign of bullying and harassment. They denied this at a meeting, at which point I told them how harassment was defined, which was a mistake. They were then empowered to accuse me of this sort of behaviour, to the extent of writing to Companies House to say it was essential that I as Company Secretary should not be aware of their new address. (This of course made it impossible for me to carry out the unpaid work they, as fellow directors, depended on effectively.)

A solicitor with expertise in neighbour issues said that such people are not worth taking on, as they have done it before, whatever the outcome, they will do it again, so taking them on cannot be seen as protecting others in the future. It will have costs in money, and in health. I was already in a bad state, so it was affecting my school life.

As a teacher, I got to recognise as bullying anything subsequently excused with a sentence beginning either "It was only..." or "It was just..." and probably continuing "a joke", and pointed out that the butt of the so-called joke was not laughing (probably miserable or hiding in the loos).

Learning to cope, while allowing the perpetrators to continue uncontrolled, merely allows the targets to develop low self esteem, and an unhealthy view of their position in life. Not good.

[ 16. October 2012, 16:31: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have yet to find any situation in the real world that is in any way as unpleasant as the treatment I got from some of my peers at school, and for which that treatment in any way prepared me.

I do, however, have a number of issues I'm still working through that resulted from that treatment, all of which have had a negative impact on my adult life.

Tclune speaks, I fear, of what he does not know.
Tom says upthread that he experienced being bullied as the new kid in a lot of schools- a new place every year. I think that may have a different emotional impact than staying in the same schools and being on the bottom of the social heap year after year, which is what I experienced.

I think there's a difference between "testing" bullying (that is, we don't know who you are yet, let's take a poke at you to see if you're a good chew toy) and "permanent" bullying: we know you're weak and we'll see that you stay that way 'cause you're fun to hurt.

That may be why different adults look back on their encounters with bullying differently. For me it wasn't a case of jockeying for social position or being envied because I was talented or popular (au contraire!). I don't view it as a normal childhood phase because it wasn't a phase; it lasted for about nine years both in school and in extracurriculars like Scouting. It wasn't something I could "cope" with because the effect was to make me feel that I was hopeless, worthless, unlovable- not that I was just a convenient target but that there was something wrong with me at my core and it would never get better. Thank God I had a loving family and church.
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Surely infantilising kids is the best thing for them. After all, they are, um, infants.
[Confused] [Confused] [Confused]
Why the confusion? Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants. Protecting children from bullying allows them to enjoy a childhood that might otherwise be marred by protracted periods of pain and confusion.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants.
Are you a native speaker of English?

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
Sob!
Won't somebody please think of the adults?
Kids being bullied in school is no small issue, but what of adults bullied online, at work, in church, on crowded elevators or subway cars?
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Sob!
Won't somebody please think of the adults?
Kids being bullied in school is no small issue, but what of adults bullied online, at work, in church, on crowded elevators or subway cars?
All my links were for adults who are being bullied LB.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Back to your original question -

It's bullying if you are subject to

quote:

- constant nit-picking, fault-finding and criticism of a trivial nature - the triviality, regularity and frequency betray bullying; often there is a grain of truth (but only a grain) in the criticism to fool you into believing the criticism has validity, which it does not; often, the criticism is based on distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication
simultaneous with the criticism.

- a constant refusal to acknowledge you and your contributions and achievements or to recognise your existence and value

- constant attempts to undermine you and your position, status, worth, value and potential
where you are in a group (eg at work), being singled out and treated differently; for instance, everyone else can get away with murder but the moment you put a foot wrong - however trivial - action is taken against you

- being isolated and separated from colleagues, excluded from what's going on, marginalized, overruled, ignored, sidelined, frozen out, sent to Coventry

- being belittled, demeaned and patronised, especially in front of others
From the site I linked to. I think the operative word is 'constant'.

Like I said earlier, if the bullying is online - best thing imo, is to leave the community. Not easy but better for your mental health in the long run. That's what I did, and kept in touch with the friends I'd made by FB.
 
Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
Thanks, Boogie; and of course, any Shipmate is unconditionally free to discuss whatever age and type of bullying they wish to; within the Host's supervision, once a thread is begun, it belongs to those posting on it.
However, since the cyber-bullying thread on this forum seems to be talking mainly about bullying of a younger age group, perhaps this one provides room for issues of adult bullying of adults without that issue disrupting the cyber-bullying thread.
Or not, as seems wise to whomever is inclined to post.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have yet to find any situation in the real world that is in any way as unpleasant as the treatment I got from some of my peers at school, and for which that treatment in any way prepared me.
Same here.

But then I've never had anything to do with the army or prisons, which are the obvious comparisonsm because oif their heirarchical nature, clearly defined packing orders, and violently enforced compulsion. Workplaces can get nasty but if they got as nasty as a typical school the courts would get involved.
 
Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
bump
 
Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.

--Tom Clune
Kids need to learn any number of things. I'm at a loss to think of another situation where a kid's need to learn is said to justify a teacher's looking the other way.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.

--Tom Clune
Kids need to learn any number of things. I'm at a loss to think of another situation where a kid's need to learn is said to justify a teacher's looking the other way.
Agreed, and Tom speaks perhaps of brief or minor bullying only. I'd like invite him to provide us information about how to cope. Or did he mean the one time bullying incident only?

It really bothers me those who suggest that people should stand up for themselves and learn to cope never, ever, never tell them how to stand up or how to cope. They just tell others to stand up or learn to cope. Most with experience of bullying and repeat bullying have had to figure it out for themselves, felt further labelled as weak, and when they finally retaliated, got mis-labelled as the aggressor. So please someone tell us how to learn to cope!
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
What if the whole point is to systematically dismantle the person's connection to their community? What if forcing the person to opt for your desire for their pariah-ship is actually the ultimate aim? What if forcing the person to 'escape' from the community to which they previously belonged is in fact the goal? Surely a person can be bullied out of their community? The option of 'escape' does not mean that it isn't bullying. On the contrary - it may in fact constitute the bullying. Surely the processes by which someone is made to contemplate escaping a community is, by definition, a form of bullying? Surely this is doubly true if those processes clearly involve abusive forms of communication such as name calling and mass hectoring?

[ 06. November 2012, 22:18: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
What if the whole point is to systematically dismantle the person's connection to their community? What if forcing the person to opt for your desire for their pariah-ship is actually the ultimate aim? What if forcing the person to 'escape' from the community to which they previously belonged is in fact the goal? Surely a person can be bullied out of their community? The option of 'escape' does not mean that it isn't bullying. On the contrary - it may in fact constitute the bullying. Surely the processes by which someone is made to contemplate escaping a community is, by definition, a form of bullying? Surely this is doubly true if those processes clearly involve abusive forms of communication such as name calling and mass hectoring?
Certainly in my former workplace I believe this was true. I was not objective enough at the time to see it as bullying; it's only hindsight that has helped me realize this.

nor do I think my bully was terribly cognizant of her campaign to drive me out: I don't think she is one who makes conscious decisions much at all, she's a very emotional person. I think she is generally a very miserable person, and anyone she finds threatening she feels the need to "bring down". My resignation just suited her needs to a T.

I suspect this is the case with a lot of bullies - basically miserable people projecting their pain onto someone who they target either because they seem an easy target or because the bully wants to bring them down for some reason - often, envy.

getting the target person to leave meets their goals in that it gets that person and what they represent to the bully out of their daily view.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
What if the whole point is to systematically dismantle the person's connection to their community? What if forcing the person to opt for your desire for their pariah-ship is actually the ultimate aim? What if forcing the person to 'escape' from the community to which they previously belonged is in fact the goal? Surely a person can be bullied out of their community? The option of 'escape' does not mean that it isn't bullying. On the contrary - it may in fact constitute the bullying. Surely the processes by which someone is made to contemplate escaping a community is, by definition, a form of bullying? Surely this is doubly true if those processes clearly involve abusive forms of communication such as name calling and mass hectoring?
I never thought about it that way before but I do believe you are correct.

And as comet has intimated, it may be a subconscious thing.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by comet:

I suspect this is the case with a lot of bullies - basically miserable people projecting their pain onto someone who they target either because they seem an easy target or because the bully wants to bring them down for some reason - often, envy.

getting the target person to leave meets their goals in that it gets that person and what they represent to the bully out of their daily view.
Exactly right.

The problem for those who are left is that the bully invariably chooses a new target within a very short time.
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Surely the processes by which someone is made to contemplate escaping a community is, by definition, a form of bullying? Surely this is doubly true if those processes clearly involve abusive forms of communication such as name calling and mass hectoring?
Yes - That's exactly what happened to me on a previous forum. I left in 2008, but still miss the people there. In my case it wasn't mass hectoring, it was one person who pursued me across the boards on a subject which they thought I was so wrong I needed hounding out.

They succeeded.

How much harder for those who are hounded out of jobs and livelihoods? Nearly always by people in positions of power.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
OK, let's look at this from a slightly different angle.

Consider the Phelps clan. They are indisputably nasty people who cause considerable misery to those whom they are targeting, even if strictly speaking they don't target any specific individual during their 'protests'. They are disruptive to the normal functioning of the community and a lot of people get rightly pissed off at them.

This means that a lot of people say a lot of things back to them and about them, and naturally a lot of those things are quite deliberately offensive. There's certainly lots of name-calling and hectoring. Indeed, all right-thinking people in the community want nothing more than for the Phelps clan to either shut up or go far, far away from the community.

Are the Phelpses being bullied? Or is it a legitimate response to the shit they're constantly coming out with?
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
You're flirting with Godwin, Marvin.

But I think this article answers your question rather well.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants.
Are you a native speaker of English?

--Tom Clune
WTF is that supposed to mean?
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Without wishing to reference the Hell thread posts about bullying in their entirety, I think that this post from Twilight is worth copying and pasting here:

quote:
Originally posted by TwilightThis belief that it isn't bullying if it can be ignored is how bullying has lasted for so long in schools. People call you "Pizza faced ____" every day? Just ignore it. They beat you up on the way home? Walk another route or change schools or get your mother to quit work and home school you. Half the school gets on Facebook every afternoon and talks about how ugly you are? Turn off the computer.

And if the victim can't resist looking at the website, because it's a strong human instinct to listen when people are talking about you (and maybe hope someone will defend you) then it's her fault. If it all makes her start hating herself so much she kills herself then she probably would have done it for some other reason anyway -- no point in feeling guilty. On the other hand if she "changes," gets her nose fixed or "quits" being gay or apologizes and says you were right all along -- then the bully gets to take credit for building a better person. Neat.

 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're flirting with Godwin, Marvin.

But I think this article answers your question rather well.
You appear to be avoiding the question. Are folks like the Patriot Guard Riders bullies picking on the Phelps clan, or are they defending the rest of the community from the deleterious effects of the clan's behaviour?
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're flirting with Godwin, Marvin.

But I think this article answers your question rather well.
You appear to be avoiding the question. Are folks like the Patriot Guard Riders bullies picking on the Phelps clan, or are they defending the rest of the community from the deleterious effects of the clan's behaviour?
The question at the end of the article asks, "COULD YOU SHOW... hospitality to someone spewing hate at you?" There's part of my answer right there.

Now, with regard to the the Phelps Clan and the Patriot Guard Riders: the two parties lay no claim to membership of the same community. There is no distinct community or "body corporate" (so to speak) to which they both wish to claim membership or incorporation. They are just independent parties conflicting over a public issue, not members a distinct community conflicting over matters of etiquette and shared values. So, I can't really answer your question because I don't think it actually addresses the issue under discussion.

[ 07. November 2012, 09:45: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The question at the end of the article asks, "COULD YOU SHOW... hospitality to someone spewing hate at you?" There's part of my answer right there.
So your answer is that we should lovingly welcome people whose only intention is to destroy everything we have tried to build? That we shouldn't do anything to protect ourselves or our community - and furthermore, than any such attempts are, in your opinion, bullying?

quote:
So, I can't really answer your question because I don't think it actually addresses the issue under discussion.
Bullshit, it's a perfect example of the dynamics that are in play in this discussion.

You're saying that anyone who attacks anyone else is a bully. I'm saying that when those attacks are a form of self-defence it is emphatically not bullying. You're then trying to redefine as many terms as you possibly can in order to avoid having to admit that I have a point.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
daronmedway on the Hell thread discussion on bullying that was sent back to Purgatory, described Hell calls as:
quote:
I'm challenging the bullshit notion that bullying behaviour is OK if the group has decided that the nasty little shit deserves it. That is a dangerous logical fallacy and you know it. Bullying behaviour is wrong, mousethief. The person may well well be nasty. The person may well be extremely irritating. But that doesn't give anyone permission to verbally abuse them for extended periods of time.
To which I responded
quote:
Hang on, daronmedway, so we're not allowed to challenge behaviour of others? And if you had read the thread, you'd have noticed that much of this is challenging behaviour. The abuse is not coming from one direction, only.
Daron then agreed that behaviour could be challenged here

It seems to me that there are two things being conflated here: the way the Ship uses Hell as a mechanism to contain and moderate behaviour and bullying.

I think if someone wanted to bully someone on an online forum there would be a whole raft of ways to do so that would be far clearer forms of bullying than a Hell call. Following that person around the boards and making counter posts or ridiculing everything that was said on everything that was posted, unpleasant personal messages, quoting and picking on their posts continually, posting personal information in such a way to embarrass but not out - lots of ways.

The sort of cyberbullying that young people experience is that sort of unrelenting inescapable attack, embarrassing photographs being posted and distributed, things that eat into life totally.

The Hell board is deliberately separate and a lot of Shipmates never go there.

[ 07. November 2012, 10:23: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

I think if someone wanted to bully someone on an online forum there would be a whole raft of ways to do so that would be far clearer forms of bullying than a Hell call. Following that person around the boards and making counter posts or ridiculing everything that was said on everything that was posted, unpleasant personal messages, quoting and picking on their posts continually, posting personal information in such a way to embarrass but not out - lots of ways.

The sort of cyberbullying that young people experience is that sort of unrelenting inescapable attack, embarrassing photographs being posted and distributed, things that eat into life totally.

The Hell board is deliberately separate and a lot of Shipmates never go there.
I agree 100%.

If the forum I referred to had had the equivalent of Hell I think I'd still be there, I really needed a way to call them out on their behaviour. I had no way to reply to the person who followed me round ridiculing my posts, constantly by using reductio ad absurdum arguments, then laughing when I objected - I did advocate such a place but, sadly it didn't happen.

Many forums can learn a lot from Hell imo.

I just (in danger of being Styx-ish here) hope the hosts will close threads that outlive their purpose and become more like dogpiles - which, you have to admit, has happened more than once.

<typo>

[ 07. November 2012, 10:36: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The question at the end of the article asks, "COULD YOU SHOW... hospitality to someone spewing hate at you?" There's part of my answer right there.
So your answer is that we should lovingly welcome people whose only intention is to destroy everything we have tried to build?
Do you really think that the only intention the shipmates who have been dog-piled in Hell was to destroy everything that you've tried to build? Really? You call people names in Hell because you think you're protecting the Ship? Wow. That's really messed up. [Confused]

quote:
quote:
So, I can't really answer your question because I don't think it actually addresses the issue under discussion.
Bullshit, it's a perfect example of the dynamics that are in play in this discussion.

You're saying that anyone who attacks anyone else is a bully. I'm saying that when those attacks are a form of self-defence it is emphatically not bullying. You're then trying to redefine as many terms as you possibly can in order to avoid having to admit that I have a point.
Self defence? Seriously? Dog-piling is self-defence? Calling people names is self-defence?

As Will Self once wrote, "Some people lose their sense of perspective, I've lost my sense of scale."

Marvin, you really do sound as if you've lost both. [Disappointed]

[ 07. November 2012, 10:42: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
I've opened a thread in The Styx to discuss the issue of dogpiling in Hell.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Do you really think that the only intention the shipmates who have been dog-piled in Hell was to destroy everything that you've tried to build?
I'm talking about the principles that are in play in this discussion, which is about the definition of bullying. If we can agree on those basic principles, then we can start talking about whether they apply in any particular situation, should you so desire.

I picked the Phelps clan for my example because they're the best example of obviously-harmful people who attract a lot of opprobrium, and because I thought it would be perfectly straightforward to get us all to agree that such opprobrium is not bullying - and is, in fact, perfectly justified - in their case.

The idea is that once we've defined the two extremes of the spectrum from justified opprobrium to unjustified hounding, we can start exploring the rest of the spectrum and decide at what point the behaviour becomes (or ceases to be, depending on which end you're counting from!) "bullying".
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
daronmedway on the Hell thread discussion on bullying that was sent back to Purgatory, described Hell calls as:
quote:
I'm challenging the bullshit notion that bullying behaviour is OK if the group has decided that the nasty little shit deserves it. That is a dangerous logical fallacy and you know it. Bullying behaviour is wrong, mousethief. The person may well well be nasty. The person may well be extremely irritating. But that doesn't give anyone permission to verbally abuse them for extended periods of time.
To which I responded
quote:
Hang on, daronmedway, so we're not allowed to challenge behaviour of others? And if you had read the thread, you'd have noticed that much of this is challenging behaviour. The abuse is not coming from one direction, only.
Daron then agreed that behaviour could be challenged here

<snip>

The Hell board is deliberately separate and a lot of Shipmates never go there.
Yes, but most of the threads where name calling and protracted episodes of mass hectoring eventually occur are called Hell Calls. The offender is called to the thread. There's even an informal etiquette of PMing the shipmate being called. Yes, I do grant that participation is optional but let's not pretend that shipmates can happily ignore Hell calls and just carry on elsewhere on the boards as if nothing is happening.

That having been said, I do realise that the original purpose of most (if not all) hell calls is to resolve conflict, bring correction, or express irritation constructively. The problems, as I've said already, arise when Hell calls degenerate into "let's all outdo each other in calling a shipmate increasingly nasty names" until they plank themselves and then justify it as "self-defence". It just doesn't follow.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Host Hat On

The way Hell functions is a subject for discussion in the Styx, not here. And there is a live thread for that purpose (Dogpiling in Hell).

No more here please. Admin have already taken a strong line on this in Hell. You risk your posting privileges if you continue to post on the functioning of Hell here.

Barnabas62
Host Hat Off
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:


I picked the Phelps clan for my example because they're the best example of obviously-harmful people who attract a lot of opprobrium, and because I thought it would be perfectly straightforward to get us all to agree that such opprobrium is not bullying - and is, in fact, perfectly justified - in their case.
And the woman about to be stoned for adultery?

You never did engage with that one.

Adultery is obviously harmful.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants.
Are you a native speaker of English?

--Tom Clune
WTF is that supposed to mean?
I'm not thrilled that this lame thread has been resurrected, but I will answer this for you, Matt. I cannot imagine that any native speaker of English would not know that, while all infants are children, not all children are infants. For example, a 12 year old would be universlly recognized as a child and universally recognized as not an infant. The only way that I can make sense out of D's comment is if he is not familiar with the English language. I thought that would have been clear from what I said, but apparently not. I trust this clears up your confusion.

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants.
Are you a native speaker of English?

--Tom Clune
WTF is that supposed to mean?
I'm not thrilled that this lame thread has been resurrected, but I will answer this for you, Matt. I cannot imagine that any native speaker of English would not know that, while all infants are children, not all children are infants. For example, a 12 year old would be universlly recognized as a child and universally recognized as not an infant. The only way that I can make sense out of D's comment is if he is not familiar with the English language. I thought that would have been clear from what I said, but apparently not. I trust this clears up your confusion.

--Tom Clune
Well, strictly speaking an infant is a very young child which is not yet able to speak. But in Britain children are considered infants up to age of about 7. This is because, broadly speaking, primary schools are comprised of Infants (Key Stage 1) and Juniors (Key Stage 2).. So, I guess I take your point. Not that it is a very good one, or that it has changed my mind concerning anything we were discussing.
 
Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
In future, Tom Clune, I will seek the advice of a Purgatory Host prior to bumping posts up after they have slipped from page one; I thought it might be helpful in this case, but will seek advice prior to doing so in future.
I hope that helps!
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
In future, Tom Clune, I will seek the advice of a Purgatory Host prior to bumping posts up after they have slipped from page one; I thought it might be helpful in this case, but will seek advice prior to doing so in future.
I hope that helps!
There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to seek the approval of a host for this kind of thing. My personal unhappiness to see the thread revived means nothing. You did nothing wrong, and need not get anyone's permission to bump a thread. Apparently, a fair number of other Purgatory posters are happy to see it revived. Ah, well...

--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
 
Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
For what it is worth, I am mostly convinced by comet's postings to change some of my views on whether it is still bullying if one can simply walk away; I could at times agree now that intentionally or subconscienciously causing someone to walk away may well be bullying, after all.
 
Posted by Loquacious beachcomber (# 8783) on :
 
Sorry for the double post; just wanted to add that this type of bullying behaviour is not something which I believe I have ever done intentionally here on the Ship, nor do I plan to - ever.
 
Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 
Today's Independent offers a rather interesting article on the issue of bullying 'Why I'm thankful I was bullied.' Unusual perspective!
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Today's Independent offers a rather interesting article on the issue of bullying 'Why I'm thankful I was bullied.' Unusual perspective!
He says this of himself -


quote:
I was arrogant, showy, aloof, judgemental, critical, selfish and unsociable. To put it simply, I needed my worst traits bullying out of me. Just as my braces straightened out my teeth, so classmates beat out my obnoxiousness.
But he was a small child! I think he's rationalising a bad situation in order to be able to live with it.

No child, however obnoxious, deserves such treatment.

I know kids who are arrogant, showy, selfish and unsociable. Sometimes they come to me and say 'Nobody likes me'. It's pretty hard to answer them, but they need the mirror of self awareness, not a sound beating!
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
But how do you create that mirror of self-awareness? Peers sometimes are the only way.

One of my friends at university had a BO problem and his mates decided he needed to sort it. You'd hear them every so often telling him "You smell". He'd disappear and come back showered and changed. He appreciated being told so - it made the difference between getting a girlfriend and a job and not. But outsiders were horrified and muttered about bullying.

Within education, there are suggestions on how to support youngsters towards self-awareness. The Excellence in Cities strand funded Learning Mentors to work with children and young people who were struggling for whatever reason, and their materials include self-esteem and friendship activities, SEAL and SEBS (Social and Emotional Aspects of Learning and Social, Emotional and Behavioural Studies) also are hoping to tackle these sorts of issues. But an adult intervening doesn't work unless the child sees a problem - and their peer group rejecting them can sometimes be the clue that they need to change and get help on how to do so.
 
Posted by PerkyEars (# 9577) on :
 
quote:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
[Waterworks]

tclune I almost called you to hell over your remarks in this thread, but I'll try setting it out here instead.

What about the child who comes to school with poor social skills and self esteem because they are abused at home, and simply isn't able to cope with yet another layer of trauma?

That was me. It was teachers with your level of insight and compassion that turned a blind eye while I went through ten years of hell. Perhaps they all hoped that the next day or year I would 'learn to cope'.

There are many others who just can't cope without assistance. Children on the autistic spectrum. Children with mild learning difficulties. I know many, many adults who are still healing from childhood bullying. They didn't cope. Why is that? Is that their fault? I also know adults who claim to be 'glad' they were bullied as it 'toughened them up', but their cynicism and low self-worth is on their sleeve for everyone else to see even if they can't.

What makes it harder for both vulnerable and average children is that a school culture of adults ignoring it serves to legitimise it. If children do not see adults take a stand against any behavior, then by default they understand that behaviour is normal. When this happens, children do not understand the bully as a bad person, and learn to understand and cope with the fact that there are bad or antagonistic people in the world. What they understand is that they themselves are bad. Others have spoken about a bullying culture in workplaces - it makes bullying harder to survive and stand against as it is the norm. Adults ignoring it in schools runs the strong risk of creating exactly this kind of culture.

Tom Clune - I hope you're speaking in ignorance rather than callousness. If it's callousness I hope it's not as a result of your own experiences of bullying. It would prove my point.
 
Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 
Thanks for some insightful responses to the article I linked to; I think this does open up the conversation. Let's be clear - there are some forms of 'bullying' that all would condone: the person making sexist or racist remarks in public clearly deserves almost all the verbal attacks they receive. So at one end of the spectrum, 'bullying' is an appropriate response to socially unacceptable behaviour.

At the other end of the spectrum, the child who is bullied as a result of being on the autistic spectrum, having learning difficulties or some visible disability, is unambiguously in need of protection.

So what is needed is intelligent intervention. The primary source for this should be the family, and I do wonder if the rise of bullying is in part a result of the breakdown of extended families and smaller family sizes. In a society where the children would all be part of a wider 'clan', that clan would (in an ideal world) protect their own from the unfair bullying, whilst (ideally) helping the young person to address their legitimate issues of concern. (I find it fascinating how many of the heroes in the bible are younger siblings - e.g. Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David and Josiah); the only clear counter example is Jesus). However smaller family sizes combined with high mobility have destroyed this prospect, leaving most children largely isolated when they enter the school environment. Whilst there is some prospect of parents being able to help with the issues, in reality many are not equipped to deal effectively with them; we are therefore in effect facing a new problem, or at least substantially more serious than it was in the past as a result of long term social changes. Where IS the only child of mobile parents going to learn their social skills? There are no easy solutions - but a recognition of WHY it is far more common for it to be problematic now might help focus professionals', especially teachers', attention on the matter.
 
Posted by PerkyEars (# 9577) on :
 
That's a really good point Enders Shadow, and a link I'd not seen before between community disintegration and bullying. Perhaps children who feel at liberty to bully would not do so if they felt their victims and their families were part of the same community as themselves and their own families. Many of those who were bullied at my school were 'others' in the wider community - travellers, or those who's parents kept to themselves.

If children meet up out of school with other families, if they share a street, a church, a club, if their parents know each other and talk to each other, then I'm guessing bullying falls dramatically between those children. My gut feeling is that those primitive responses of scapegoating and ostracising that children are trying out just don't come into play as much when everyone is an insider. I wonder what the statistics are for bullying in small village schools, where the families are likely to know each other? It does seem to me that the most horrendous tales come from boarding schools, where everyone is ripped from a community context.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
I do wonder if the rise of bullying is in part a result of the breakdown of extended families and smaller family sizes. In a society where the children would all be part of a wider 'clan', that clan would (in an ideal world) protect their own from the unfair bullying
I suspect it is a rise in reporting of bullying rather than an absolute rise. I received sustained racist bullying as a child and it was clear to me that there was no value in reporting it.

If the "clan" back-up really did work in days gone by, then that would suggest that bullying was regularly escalated into feuds between clans, or a sort of mutually-assured-destruction-stand-off situation. Neither of which seem very credible to me.

Funny that you mention Joseph in your post. I can't imagine a more serious case of within-family-bullying.

And Jacob had a pretty dysfunctional family background.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Small rural communities, the incomers were bullied, and the travellers and the ones who didn't fit.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I do grant that participation is optional but let's not pretend that shipmates can happily ignore Hell calls and just carry on elsewhere on the boards as if nothing is happening.
Not happily, no, but it seems that the more the person defends themself, the more people wade in and the longer the thread goes on...and on...and on.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PerkyEars:
quote:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
[Waterworks]

tclune I almost called you to hell over your remarks in this thread, but I'll try setting it out here instead.
He also didn't answer when I posted about it. , which I quote below.


quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'd like invite him to provide us information about how to cope. Or did he mean the one time bullying incident only?

It really bothers me those who suggest that people should stand up for themselves and learn to cope never, ever, never tell them how to stand up or how to cope. They just tell others to stand up or learn to cope. Most with experience of bullying and repeat bullying have had to figure it out for themselves, felt further labelled as weak, and when they finally retaliated, got mis-labelled as the aggressor. So please someone tell us how to learn to cope!
He may be disinterested, even though some of the rest of us remain interested, viz.,

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I'm not thrilled that this lame thread has been resurrected,
What do you say tclune? Can we please get enlightened on how to learn to cope with bullying?
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What do you say tclune? Can we please get enlightened on how to learn to cope with bullying?
No, learning to cope is learning to cope. How you do that will depend on you. For example, I learned to fight those who bullied me when I moved to a new town. Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost, but the bullies found someone else to bother.

I don't recommend that for everyone -- your coping strategies are your own. This should not be a mystery to an adult. My point, as I thought I made clear, was that there will always be bullies in the world, and part of learning how to live in this world is learning those coping strategies that work for you. You may disagree with my view. You may feel the need to call me to Hell. Knock yourself out. But I will not be responding to any more of these posts. Get over it.

--Tom Clune

[ 09. November 2012, 00:26: Message edited by: tclune ]
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What do you say tclune? Can we please get enlightened on how to learn to cope with bullying?
No, learning to cope is learning to cope. How you do that will depend on you. For example, I learned to fight those who bullied me when I moved to a new town. Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost, but the bullies found someone else to bother.

I don't recommend that for everyone -- your coping strategies are your own. This should not be a mystery to an adult. My point, as I thought I made clear, was that there will always be bullies in the world, and part of learning how to live in this world is learning those coping strategies that work for you. You may disagree with my view. You may feel the need to call me to Hell. Knock yourself out. But I will not be responding to any more of these posts. Get over it.

--Tom Clune
Thanks for your response. Your posted something rather provocative in the view of at least a couple of us, which we felt deserved a response. Attitude not necessary.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
On a lighter note:

"The door is a bully - it knocked me down!"

(from Anthony A. one of the grammar school pupils I teach. He is referring to the pneumatically-closing door at the front of his classroom: it is steel-clad and quite heavy!)
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're flirting with Godwin, Marvin.
Anyone who says, "People being bullied need to learn to cope" automatically invokes Godwin and can't whine when the comparison is made. It's a shit thing to say and it disproved by Godwinian history. It is a blame-the-victim strategy to legitimize bullying.
 


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