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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: I think this murder was justified. (news story trigger warning)
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
Women murder rapist in court building
I wouldn't normally condone a group of people murdering a criminal but in this case I don't think the victims of this bastard had any alternative. Well ok they did have one other alternative. They could have stood by and done nothing and allowed the rapes, threats and criminal attacks to continue. Not an acceptable alternative by any means. The guys actions and the justice systems inaction and corruption backed these people into a corner and stripped away all their choices.
Ironic that this monster took advantage of the worse than useless police but found no protection from them in the end.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
NRA: We should arm rapists, to stop then getting shot.
Sorry, it is wrong to kill people in a lynch mob, even for a crime like this. The system needs to administer justice, and if it doesn't, the system is broken, and needs to change.
Having said that, I do have sympathy.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
NRA: We should arm rapists, to stop then getting shot.
Sorry, it is wrong to kill people in a lynch mob, even for a crime like this. The system needs to administer justice, and if it doesn't, the system is broken, and needs to change.
Having said that, I do have sympathy.
And during the years? decades? it takes to heal the broken system the women... do what?
I tend to see the event less as a lynching and more as a revolutionary uprising.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I think it was Johnson who said that if the state won't take care of the murderer of a man's brother, then the state admits it is lapsed and society has fallen back into a state of nature, and the man has the responsibility to take care of the murderer himself. Put me down with Lyda*Rose. Justice was done.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Women have been raped, set on fire and otherwise tortured and murdered in India without penalty for far too long. Women are now fighting back and hopefully things will change and the legal system and society as a whole will change and step up to ensure protection and justice for women.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
This story is seven years old. Does anyone know what has happened since?
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
These women were routinely denied justice and protection - by a system which then sought to prosecute them for dealing with the problem which it consistently refused to address itself.
I would like to see those policemen who turned a blind eye prosecuted for being accesories to rape. I would also expect justice to be done, regarding that female lynch-mob. Perhaps an award out of the public purse - and a grovelling apology - might be a start.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Rape is endemic in parts of India. Culture and corruption fight against justice. I have no sympathy for the foul creature who was killed, yet do not feel murder is ever right. However, I am not condemning those who murdered in this case; for I would have been amongst them had I been there.
Usha Narayane was never tried.
Story here.
[ 25. December 2012, 15:22: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
A somewhat similar situation took place in the United States 30 years ago.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Assuming that the events and background to the case have been reported accurately, I thoroughly agree that these women had no choice. In the particular circumstances it was justice, not murder, because the criminal justice system was totally corrupt and failed to protect the victims. Therefore it was an act of self-defence.
[ 25. December 2012, 16:43: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
It wasn't murder. It was self-protection and community protection after the system had proved again and again to be disinterested in offering any protection, and not even due to system helplessness but to actively helping the monster keep doing it.
I note that the immediate incident was sparked by a believable threat to keep doing it. This wasn't just some old cold revenge about the past.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
This story is seven years old. Does anyone know what has happened since?
lilBuddha has updated on the specific OP story; as far as the protection of women and the deterrence of such incidents is concerned, not a lot has happened to improve things it would seem tho' the massive demonstrations sparked by
this very recent appalling case are encouraging.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Rape in India is very prevalent, but women are now finding their voice. There are going to be some very unfortunate incidents, as there always is when there is social change. I believe women do have the right of self defense, and should probably carry pepper spray with them as a way of warding off an attacker.
Given the circumstances as reported in the OP, if there is going to be no justice from the state, vigilante justice is better than no justice.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Weapons as a preventative will not work, especially not in India. The solution will be long, slow and will feature push-back from those who do not wish to see reform. The way forward will claim victims. Gods, what a depressing thread on Christmas day.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
NRA: We should arm rapists, to stop then getting shot.
Sorry, it is wrong to kill people in a lynch mob, even for a crime like this. The system needs to administer justice, and if it doesn't, the system is broken, and needs to change.
Having said that, I do have sympathy.
Ok, I can see where it's easy to say it is wrong to kill somebody in a lynch mob BUT c'mon there were repeated attempts over years to get the system to deal with this criminal and the System is so far broken that it aided and abetted the criminal.
Given that this man was murdering, raping and stealing with impunity for years what exactly do you propose that the residents of the slum who were being raped, robbed and beaten up by this criminal do to obtain justice and put an end to the violence?
I agree with the poster who said this is not a murder but a violent uprising.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Understandable, but not necessary. To be brutally pragmatic - they could have broken his back, or crippled him some other way. He was lynched and murdered, it was not a planned or thought through response.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
Should have castrated him instead.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
but, Anyuta, he ran a gang of henchmen - castration wouldn't stop him from continuing to do so. A regular knee-jerk reaction to rapists/paedophiles is the squeal to physically or chemically castrate them - which wouldn't necessarily stop those with a mind set on abuse from carrying it out - what caused the major life-threatening injuries in the latest case, which has sparked demos across New Delhi, was not so much the penile rape & beating but penetration with an iron bar causing major intestinal trauma.
It's interesting to read on this thread that the majority of responses are in favour of the death penalty for a crime that (so far) is less than murder (the victim is not yet dead, tho' not expected to live ![[Frown]](frown.gif) ). And a death penalty carried out by a mob without due process at that. Whenever the death penalty comes up for discussion on these boards, the majority seems to be against it even for the most heinous murders even after due process and where there is absolutely no question of doubt about guilt.
Interesting.
[ 26. December 2012, 00:25: Message edited by: Jahlove ]
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Crimes like rape, assaults on minorities, defacing religious buildings, etc. have an impact on an entire group of people as well as the victim. Women in India aren't just protesting the latest assault; they're protesting centuries of abuse and oppression.
The death penalty in a formal legal system is effectively no different than a mob killing. It's slow and expensive, and the violence is done by agents of the state, but it is still killing an individual on behalf of the people. We need legal systems precisely because mob justice can feel so "right".
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
Granny Weatherwax (as always) has it:
The people’d sent for her and she’d looked at him and seen the guilt writhing in his head like a red worm, and then she’d taken them to his farm and showed them where to dig, and he’d thrown himself down and asked her for mercy, because he said he’d been drunk and it’d all been done in alcohol.
Her words came back to her. She’d said, in sobriety: end it in hemp.
And they’d dragged him off and hanged him in a hempen rope and she’d gone to watch because she owed him that much, and he’d cursed, which was unfair because hanging is a clean death, or at least cleaner than the one he’d have got if the villagers had dared defy her.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
... He was lynched and murdered, it was not a planned or thought through response.
It was planned (the mob brought chilli powder and knives with them) but I agree that it was not thought through. What if there was a case of mistaken identity and they had done the judge-jury-executioner number on the wrong guy instead of the alleged rapist?
It does seem that there is enough evidence in this old case to suggest that the justice system there is (or at least was at the time) completely impotent - that those in the lynch mob who got arrested were released after a protest. Can you say mob rule?
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
This story is seven years old. Does anyone know what has happened since?
I went prowling.
A little more detail about the killing and immediate aftermath.
This web page says "Narayane was arrested, but with help of the villagers, she was let go with certain restraints. She was required to stay in the area and could no longer pursue her hotel career." If true, the bad guys won, the uppity woman was put in her place. forbidden to have a career and escape her low status. But no one else seems to have reported this, so I don't know if it's true.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
It's interesting to read on this thread that the majority of responses are in favour of the death penalty for a crime that (so far) is less than murder (the victim is not yet dead, tho' not expected to live ). And a death penalty carried out by a mob without due process at that. Whenever the death penalty comes up for discussion on these boards, the majority seems to be against it even for the most heinous murders even after due process and where there is absolutely no question of doubt about guilt.
Interesting.
I think you're appling and oranging. Vigilante justice of this sort, which tends toward death sentences, is what you get if the state does not provide sublethal justice. A crowd of 100 raped women does not have the wherewithal to throw this creep in jail. Their justice, so to call it, was both sending a message to other rapists, and preventing this rapist from raping them again, and working out some of their own anger and frustration.
Ideally justice systems don't include that last element. But there was no justice system in place here, so this is what you get.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
er, that may be so on your side of the pond, MT, with those weird 900-year sentences - here, every day, we see dreadful crimes get community service, cautions or a jail sentence which is always halved in actuality + a bit more time off for *good behaviour* (i.e. don't annoy the screws). It is beyond parody.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Given that some of you come from countries without the death penalty, I'm fascinated. Because apparently lots of you are fine with a death penalty for rape.
There's a difference between agreeing that these women might have been justified in carrying out some form of punishment, and agree that they were justified in making death the punishment.
Because that's the sense I get when reading this thread: that a whole bunch of you leapt from "oh yes, the State hasn't punished him so they're entitled to private justice" and straight past the question of whether the particular punishment was fine and dandy.
I don't accept the death penalty. No ifs. No buts. And just because the death penalty was inflicted by a group of victims who hadn't been delivered justice by the legal system, that doesn't suddenly make it okay in my book.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
... which was the point I was trying to make.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Because that's the sense I get when reading this thread: that a whole bunch of you leapt from "oh yes, the State hasn't punished him so they're entitled to private justice" and straight past the question of whether the particular punishment was fine and dandy.
I addressed this directly so I assume you were not speaking to me.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
This is such a weird situation that I think judging the killing by normal legal or ethical standards is inappropriate. I fell about these women the same way I would have felt about hearing a prisoner in a Khmer Rouge prison camp had jumped and killed the guards in order to get out- especially since it seems like the situation was just that inescapable. Sorry it had to come to that , but the important thing is, they got out.
The chili powder thing bothers me a bit more that the killing, if that makes sense. The killing can conceivably be seen as self-defense, the torture...well, why run the risk of doing more damage to yourself (psychologically) than you do to the target?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I addressed this directly so I assume you were not speaking to me.
Correct, Sir.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I'm not certain they did, in their eyes, damage themselves psychologically. Again, I do not consider murder right, but the plight of these women push that conviction to its very edge. Were I there, I do not think I could hold that principle.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I don't think the man in the OP deserved the death penalty.
I do believe that given the facts as outlined in the news story, those women carried out an entirely justifiable homicide and rather than any punishment for them, the state should look at why the homicide was necessary and do something about introducing changes.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I re -read the story and realized my imagination had done dark things with the chili powder-- it didn't realize it was just to blind the guy. I retract my statement about psychological damage; I said that with the thought that torture was involved.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I don't think the man in the OP deserved the death penalty.
I do believe that given the facts as outlined in the news story, those women carried out an entirely justifiable homicide and rather than any punishment for them, the state should look at why the homicide was necessary and do something about introducing changes.
I am having trouble reconciling these two paragraphs. If he didn't deserve the death penalty, how can it be "an entirely justifiable homicide"? If it is "an entirely justifiable homicide" surely that implies that he deserved to die?
Unless you think it is entirely justifiable to kill people who do not deserve to die?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
I don´t support death penalty carried by the state, but I do believe the victims might take action whenever justice fails. Not only in this cases, but also in other much less significant situations, for example: a girl is raped and then threatned by the rapist in case she tells anything to the police; the police does nothing when it knows the situation. It is completely okay for the father or a brother of this girl to take action and kill the rapist. That´s my point of view.
Also, we should take notice the women in this case didn´t deny their responsibility, and they said they would be willing to take prison if that was necessary. It´s like they were giving up their freedom in favour of many others, by making them free of the threats from this guy. I think this was brave.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I don't think the man in the OP deserved the death penalty.
I do believe that given the facts as outlined in the news story, those women carried out an entirely justifiable homicide and rather than any punishment for them, the state should look at why the homicide was necessary and do something about introducing changes.
I am having trouble reconciling these two paragraphs. If he didn't deserve the death penalty, how can it be "an entirely justifiable homicide"?
These women were fighting for their future, not just penalizing the past.
Not all killing of a human being is murder or punishment for crimes past.
I've been intrigued at the old testament justice system: restitution payment, or suffer the same harm you caused, or banishment, or death. No prison terms. If you have to remove someone from society because he is an ongoing danger to society, it's banishment or death.
These women had no way to banish him, the legal system supported him, so what other choice did they have? Should they have submitted to 30 more years of brutality? On what basis would one argue that they were obligated to continue being victims of a thug gang instead of taking whatever action necessary to free themselves from the ongoing abuse?
If the issue is "only life justifies life," remember that the reports say several women who protested gang activity over the years were murdered by the gang.
But even without that, is there no right to self-protection where a gang is kidnapping your children, raping your women, and threatening to burn down you house if you complain? People are suppose to say "OK, come on back and hit us again next week"?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I don't think the man in the OP deserved the death penalty.
I do believe that given the facts as outlined in the news story, those women carried out an entirely justifiable homicide and rather than any punishment for them, the state should look at why the homicide was necessary and do something about introducing changes.
I am having trouble reconciling these two paragraphs. If he didn't deserve the death penalty, how can it be "an entirely justifiable homicide"? If it is "an entirely justifiable homicide" surely that implies that he deserved to die?
Unless you think it is entirely justifiable to kill people who do not deserve to die?
I don't agree and I think this is confusing several different principles.
This man did deserve to die. He may not have killed his victims, but he had inflicted on them something that with good reason is frequently described as a 'fate worse than death'. He was therefore worse than a multiple murderer.
The fact that some crimes may merit death does not mean states have to impose it. Many countries including mine, commendably and I agree with them, no longer inflict death judicially.
The usual assumption is that the state enforces the law and protects the innocent against the guilty. In exchange for doing that, it is entitled to say to what extent people are and are not allowed or forbidden to avenge their own wrongs.
People often say, 'we can't allow people to take the law into their own hands because that allows vigilantes'. We could just as well argue that because the state is an amalgam of citizens, it is our civic duty to assume some responsibility for law enforcement and not to expect the police to do everything for us.
Where the state consistently and habitually fails to do its basic law enforcement job, there comes a point when the counter duty of citizens not to take the law into their own hands is also abrogated. There are major downsides to this. It can be a rough and unreliable weapon. It is likely to degenerate over time into the maintenance of social order by feud. But what else are they to do?
These women were not executing Mr Yadav extra-judicially. Because of the failure of the local organs of the state to protect them, they were remedying their situation in the only way left open to them
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Gods what a place has come to when that is a choice to be made.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gods what a place has come to when that is a choice to be made.
Yes, and aren't there a number such places on this planet right now, areas controlled by gangs of thugs because there is no functioning government, or the government is afraid of the thugs.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
A small point:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
These women were not executing Mr Yadav extra-judicially.
This is a highly original use of the term "extrajudicial." What these women did can be described in a number of ways -- "understandable," "desperate," "correct," "right-on" -- but clearly they acted outside the law. In fact, their action amounted to a critique of the justice system, which means that one might argue that "extrajudiciality" was actually one of the points behind their action. These women were performing an act of civil disobedience, among other things. Their statement -- "arrest us all" -- suggests they were
doing this consciously.
A larger point:
While I agree with the outrage many have expressed against the rapist, some of the rationalizations for the lynching of Mr. Yadav seem rather scarey in their implications.
I don't think anyone has addressed the danger of the "slippery slope" so far. If this extrajudicial killing is rationalized, how does one draw the line against other cases where a less-justified sense of unfairness and outrage lead to similar actions?
Those of us who live in the U.S. might recall the days of racially-motivated "lynch law."
What about the code of "honor killing," which still has its apologists in certain parts of the world?
What about the aphorism: "two wrongs don't make a right"?
I'm not saying that the women should be judicially punished. In an ideal world, charges should be brought but then dismissed, with no further legal penalties.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I don't think the man in the OP deserved the death penalty.
I do believe that given the facts as outlined in the news story, those women carried out an entirely justifiable homicide and rather than any punishment for them, the state should look at why the homicide was necessary and do something about introducing changes.
I am having trouble reconciling these two paragraphs. If he didn't deserve the death penalty, how can it be "an entirely justifiable homicide"? If it is "an entirely justifiable homicide" surely that implies that he deserved to die?
Unless you think it is entirely justifiable to kill people who do not deserve to die?
No a justifiable homicide does not imply that the victim deserved to die.
The state should have dealt with this criminal's behaviour. The state did not carry out their duty to their citizens so as in self defence the women who had cause to genuinely fear for their life acted to protect themselves. This is not about the women seeking justice for the crimes committed against them it's about them acting, desperately to prevent future attacks. There's a big difference between a justifiable homicide carried out in self defence and the death penalty carried out by the state for a crime carried out in the past.
ETA Enoch answered this better than I did earlier.
[ 26. December 2012, 20:02: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
Happy Boxing Day!
This case strikes me as tribal and community justice. In modern situations, some sort of sentencing circle is formed, with the goal of representing the community. The consensus of the community is then applied. Is this not an equivalent type of circumstance? It is obvious that external or constituted authority was incompetent to deal with the problem, and the community agreed to, more or less, lance the boil and drain the pus. This is not the same the as a vigilante response, where one or a small number of people determine and execute law and justice.
The difference in this situation, as described, seems to me to be that the community sentencing circle as informal. The effect and justice are the same.
I think it is quite clear that in many situations, the legal "professionals" have taken over, both in the area of policing and in court-related response such that people feel and in reality are disenfranchised. Without going too far afield, I'm not suggesting that laws and courts should be abolished, but there needs to be a reversal of the professionalisation of courts and a reduction of the status and roles of lawyers and prosecutors. More citizen representation, more non-lawyers making judgements, more community liaison for police. So that all of these functionaries resume their role as functionaries and not as deciding powers or authorities.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Ummm, no. This is what leads to lynching and the subjugation of minority populations.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
No lilBuddha, that's an oversimplification. We have alternative justice working partly and poorly in this direction already in Canada.
Of course there needs to be some oversight, but the mechanism of oversight is perhaps a red herring that I introduced. It is still headed up by judges and lawyers are expensively involved and I think this needs revision.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:...clearly they acted outside the law. ..These women were performing an act of civil disobedience,...some of the rationalizations for the lynching of Mr. Yadav seem rather scarey in their implications.
I don't think anyone has addressed the danger of the "slippery slope" so far...Those of us who live in the U.S. might recall the days of racially-motivated "lynch law."
What about the code of "honor killing," which still has its apologists in certain parts of the world?
What should the women have done? That has to be addressed in any "what they did was wrong" discussion, yes? Is the Christian message to people who are openly and repeatedly brutalized "accept it, any resistance that might harm the monster is wrong"? Is that the message we want to give kids bullied in schools -- "just let them hit you, don't learn how to fight back"?
The slippery slope issue depends on how one views the idea of a "right to self-defense" that includes killing. From past discussions I don't think all Shipmates agree on that point.
The slippery slope also depends on how one views the action of the women. Was it purely revenge for past deeds, or was it future protection from the evil deeds of an easily identified man who had been caught in the act many times and who boasted of his deeds and threaten more in public -- including in public just before he was attacked. This is not comparable to someone being killed solely for skin color, nor even solely for past deeds.
But yes the question of when it is appropriate to take the law into your own hands is real. Happens all the time with lesser offenses, right? Kid breaks a window, your choice whether to go to the cops or go to the kid's parents and demand restitution; in that case we usually think leaving the official system out of it is better, don't give the kid a police record.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's because there is no justice. Christianity fails again. And one can never blame the oppressed for their sins.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's because there is no justice. Christianity fails again. And one can never blame the oppressed for their sins.
Right, because imperialists imposing "Christianity" on other people groups always turns out well ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Put in more effort next time, grade D-
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's because there is no justice. Christianity fails again. And one can never blame the oppressed for their sins.
I don't see that Christianity had anything to do with the OP news incident, so I don't know that it either succeeded or failed, I added the term to the discussion because it is a common, even if not universal, influence on many Shipmate thought patterns.
But as to justice, my understanding of the word as used in the Bible is not punishment or revenge for past deeds but setting the oppressed free from oppression, which is what the justice system failed to do, intentionally and aggressively failed to do, and what most of us think any justice system should have done.
There is probably a disagreement on this thread as to whether what the women did was sin, but there is probably similar disagreement as to whether a soldier who shoots someone in battle, or a police officer who shoots someone in a crime scene incident, or a homeowner who confronts a nighttime break-in by shooting the thug, sins.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
the giant cheeseburger: who's talking about travesty of Christianity we've had for 2000 years? Belle Ringer: ditto the travesty of concepts of justice, i.e. righteousness.
As always in ALL of these things, the failure is [that of] Christendom. What else? Who else?
That there is no social justice, no equity, no courage, that there is corruption, self interest; self serving power.
Therefore the terrorized oppressed are driven to unenlightened acts of counter-terror and counter-oppression.
Where is Kingdom leadership in ANY of this?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't accept the death penalty. No ifs. No buts. And just because the death penalty was inflicted by a group of victims who hadn't been delivered justice by the legal system, that doesn't suddenly make it okay in my book.
There's a difference between approving of what was done, and finding it understandable. They shouldn't have done it, but they also shouldn't have been in a situation where they felt they needed to.
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As always in ALL of these things, the failure is [that of] Christendom. What else? Who else?
The corrupt leadership of the Hindu nation involved, Christendom has nothing to do with this.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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