Ship of Fools: Government out of control? Or just protecting our national heritage?

Thread: Government out of control? Or just protecting our national heritage? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Blær Bjarkardottir of Iceland is not legally allowed to be Blær, because Blær is not on the registry of 1,853 allowed girls' names allowed by Iceland's government.

I read in a different story (which of course I couldn't re-find; sorry) that they won't make an exception, as they sometimes do, in this case because Blær is a masculine noun and it makes no sense for a girl to have a name that's a masculine noun, now does it?

Is this just too much? Should the government prevent children from getting stupid names (anybody remember "Lulu Does the Hula in Hawaii"?)? Should the rest of the world butt out of Iceland's internal affairs because we just don't understand the way they have been doing things for 1300 years?

I'm inclined to think they're a leeeetle anal about this and need to lighten up.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

But then, you live in a society that values individuality above just about anything else, while they live in a society that has functioned smoothly as a form of community (apart from a recent banking problem, exacerbated by certain individuals who looked after themselves too well) for over a 1000 years.

There might be some evidence of cultural difference, which makes it NOYB

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Double-posting to add that we had a girl through the local school here, graduated two years ago, who was named Blair, after her grandfather.

She would probably have been much better off with a different name, given some of her defensiveness.

Seems that I agree with the Icelanders.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Iceland, a small place of 300K people, does not use last names the way the English world does. Blær Bjarkardottir is just that, daughter of Bjarka. The the first name matters in a way it doesn't in English.

Quebec had the reverse problem, women may not change their last names on marriage. In French Quebec there are only 1,200 family names in circulation. In a province of 6.5 million people the amount of redundancy is enormous and marriage switching makes it worse. So you get what you get at birth and that's it.

Stop snickering, the average French Quebecois family before 1960 had 10 children. It had been that way for generations. Welcome to French, Catholic Quebec.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

The Swiss also have an approved list of names-seems like a cultural thing that, likely is lost on those of us who come from not only individualistic new world countries but also culturally diverse societies.

In Victorian England, there were no doubt many children who wished the government did control names as shown in this horrible histories sketch.

Vile Victorian names

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Iceland is far from unique, even amongst European countries. A BBC article from a few years ago mentions that Denmark, Spain, Sweden, Portugal and Germany all have pretty explicit regulations while the UK's rule is imply that names must not cause offence. New Zealand and Argentina do so too.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Blær Bjarkardottir of Iceland is not legally allowed to be Blær, because Blær is not on the registry of 1,853 allowed girls' names allowed by Iceland's government. ... I'm inclined to think they're a leeeetle anal about this and need to lighten up.

If they have government-approved lists of names for babies, they're definitely more than a little anal, and they probably like it that way.

I think bestowing uniquely spelled names on our precious snowflakes is mostly a North American pop culture phenomenon.

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

In a language like Icelandic, which has grammatical gender, it could be confusing and odd to give a girl a name which is grammatically masculine. Do you refer to the girl as "she" or "he"? Either may sound odd for different reasons.

English hasn't had that feature for about a thousand years, so it may be a little difficult for us to sympathise.

[ 04. January 2013, 23:53: Message edited by: MSHB ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

She's gotten to fifteen seemingly without getting permanently scarred by teasing over her name. And now they want to call her "girl"? How is hat supposed to help?

And besides: Elvis is okay but not Blær?! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

I recall my Icelandic friends telling me that when Vladimir Ashkenazy became an Icelandic citizen, a special law was passed to permit him to retain his Russian name. Normally, when one becomes an Icelandic citizen, one changes one's name to Firstname Patronymic (I would be Agustin Jakobsson) and loses the surname. Note, by the way, that the daughter took the mother's name as a matronymic-- I had two Icelandic friends who used matronymics, one because his father did not participate in his upbringing and, for the other, she cheerfully noted that her mother was not sure of the identity of her father. Generally, the only Icelanders with surnames are the descendants of Norwegian or Danish merchants or officials-- I think between 5-10% of the population. The only exception which comes to mind is the writer Halldor Laxness (the only notable Icelandic RC I know of).

They are quite concerned about linguistic purity and there is a neologism commission to ensure that technical or loanwords become properly Icelandicized: e.g., telephone became simi, the webs spun by a spider in Norse mythology, radio became utvarp, and so on.

While I would not call them anal, they are certainly focussed (obsessed, if you prefer) on their language. Reading this news item did not surprise me in the least. Unless people have changed from my visits years ago, I suspect that a very large majority would support the government on this.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Microsoft tried to remove support for Icelandic from Windows and its associated programs due to cost ten years ago. The Icelandic government hit the roof, they thought in the age of computers that it really would delete their language, they'd lose all the yoof.

They offered to pay for the support, and finally had to shame Microsoft.

English is a common second language and Microsoft wanted to trade on that.

The sent the President of Iceland on an official embassy to Seattle and everything.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Lots of countries have rules about names.

Many celebrities should be sent to those countries for parenting lessons.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

Russians also use patronymics, although these days along side of a family name. I think the situation with a Russin moving to Iceland wouldn't be the patronymic per se, but rather the islandification of that patronymic.. So Nikolai Ivanovitch Popov would probably have no real problem dumping the popov, but would likely find it odd to become Ivanson.

In any case, while it seems a bit anal to me to make it a matter of law rather than custom, it's an issue of their culture, and thus really something for them to sort out internally.

Side note..I had no idea Blair was a male name. I know several Blairs all of them female.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

And then there's not allowing names with "c" because there is no "c" in their "alphabet." I wonder if they strip keyboards imported into the country to remove the naughty keys?

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Every language has a different keyboard layout.

-10 points, O dweller underneath the Onion Dome. Does Father VAsily Vasilyvich not type?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Every language has a different keyboard layout.

-10 points, O dweller underneath the Onion Dome. Does Father VAsily Vasilyvich not type?

-100 points, oh SPK, for missing the point.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Seeing as the point never landed on its target....

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

[Disappointed]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

SPK is right. Because when keyboards are imported into countries with different keyboard layouts, either they ARE changed, or they were made correctly for that county to begin with.

Are you going to go to Germany and rail against them for having the temerity to change their QWERTY keyboards into QWERTZ ones?

What about the AZERTY keyboards in French-speaking contries? You realise YOUR keyboard is missing a bunch of symbols they need in French? How dare you not have them, you English-speaker!!

And as for Russians expecting people to write in Cyrillic... [Disappointed]

[ 05. January 2013, 06:52: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

The Americans are fine ones to talk, I mean, who in their right mind would name a child 'Mousethief'? [Big Grin]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

You realise you could have chosen any nation on earth (or the nation of origin of any poster on the thread) to make that joke but it just happened to be America, again, odd that ...

[ 05. January 2013, 09:17: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

It's one of the very few reasons I can refuse to baptise a baby - "wrong name."

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

There was a registrar being interviewed on R4 yesterday who said that she does have a limited power to decline to register a name that is offensive, and also that UK Christian/First names can't have apostrophes in them, something I'd never heard of or even thought of before (why would anyone want to put an apostrophe in a name?). So presumably that allows 'de Ath', but rules out 'Death' or 'd'Ath'.

There was a row a few years ago from France about parents who wanted to give their child a Breton name which wasn't on the approved list. Apparently the French law dates from the Revolution, when there was a fashion for demonstrating one's revolutionary fervour by giving babies bizarre names like 'Georges Guillotine tous les aristocrats Pompidou'.

One would have thought that with 1,853 approved names to choose from, this mother is being a bit silly to insist on the right to give her daughter a 1,854th.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
You realise you could have chosen any nation on earth (or the nation of origin of any poster on the thread) to make that joke but it just happened to be America, again, odd that ...

Well, MT is the OPer...

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
You realise you could have chosen any nation on earth (or the nation of origin of any poster on the thread) to make that joke but it just happened to be America, again, odd that ...
Well, MT is the OPer...

Oh good. I'm glad I'm not the only who instantly thought that the remark, being about Mousethief, had to be about an American.

And Doublethink, before you suggest that a country didn't have to be mentioned at all, that's exactly what this thread IS: a person saying "oh look at what they do in that other peculiar country".

[ 05. January 2013, 11:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There was a row a few years ago from France about parents who wanted to give their child a Breton name which wasn't on the approved list. Apparently the French law dates from the Revolution, when there was a fashion for demonstrating one's revolutionary fervour by giving babies bizarre names like 'Georges Guillotine tous les aristocrats Pompidou'.

Shit, you know it must have been serious if the French revolutionaries considered it important enough to curb certain displays of support for the revolution!

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :

I used to live next door to a Breton couple who were working in the UK. They both had very ordinary French first names, but when their daughter was born, they were delighted that they would be able to christen her Nolwen (or possibly Noluenne), because the rules about using Breton names had been eased.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

There is the case (in the US, I have to mention as a point of accuracy) of a child being christened Ne-a (pronounced "Nedasha)

Just think how many times the poor sod is going to have to spell and respell his name, and how many governmental and employment agencies will refuse to believe him.

Makes one yearn for simplicity.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Au contraire, Double-Think, I only mentioned the American thing because Mousethief happens to be American and because someone further upthread had made a comment about US society - rather like ours - stressing the individual over the collective ... whereas in Iceland they take a different tack ...

If Mousethief had been from Serbo-Croatia I'd have made the same crack.

If you'd been making similar points to Mousethief, I'd have written, 'Well, people in the UK can't talk, who in their right minds would call their child Double-Think?'

I mean, c'mon ... get over it already.

[Roll Eyes]

If you're going to 'call' me on any instance where I happen to mention America then I'm going to start developing a persecution complex.

It might not have been the most humorous remark in the world but it hardly counts as US-phobic.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

You should try having Welsh Nationalists for parents. I am called by 2nd (often bodged) name because only the Welsh can pronounce my first name. Damn you Mum and Dad. LOL.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
There is the case (in the US, I have to mention as a point of accuracy) of a child being christened Ne-a (pronounced "Nedasha)

Just think how many times the poor sod is going to have to spell and respell his name, and how many governmental and employment agencies will refuse to believe him.

Makes one yearn for simplicity.

Although not quite so bad, IRL my first name is double barrelled (hyphonated, whichever you wish to say) no matter how many times I tell the government and show them my Birth certificate they still fail to put the hyphon in...

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

Anecdotes suggest there is a link between "unconventional" names (or unconventional spellings of names) and presentation rates at Accident & Emergency for children. I expect that anecdotes will exaggerate this (a nurse will be more likely to remember asking how to spell a name like Pyx-underscore-e than a conventional name like John) but I've heard this murmured from a number of people in the medical and social service worlds that I would like to see some proper non-biased study into this.

It would be an absolute bitch of a study to conduct (privacy, ethics, how to define an unconventional name, how to tell the difference between a strangely-spelled 'normal' name and a different name completely) but if it's true it could be very useful for enabling better targeting of support services for children at risk.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

As a child I recall being told that Praise-God Barebone had a child called If-Christ-had-not-died-thou-hadst-been-damned Barebone (Dammed Barebone for short). And now Wikipedia tells me the child was called Nicholas (not even Old Nick), though the DNB has a (possible) brother of that name and another called Christ-came-into-the-world-to-save Barebone.

Sergius-Melli should be grateful his parents weren't Fifth Monarchists!

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
As a child I recall being told that Praise-God Barebone had a child called If-Christ-had-not-died-thou-hadst-been-damned Barebone (Dammed Barebone for short). And now Wikipedia tells me the child was called Nicholas (not even Old Nick), though the DNB has a (possible) brother of that name and another called Christ-came-into-the-world-to-save Barebone.

Sergius-Melli should be grateful his parents weren't Fifth Monarchists!

I shall praise God everyday for this small blessing!

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Anecdotes suggest there is a link between "unconventional" names (or unconventional spellings of names) and presentation rates at Accident & Emergency for children. I expect that anecdotes will exaggerate this (a nurse will be more likely to remember asking how to spell a name like Pyx-underscore-e than a conventional name like John) but I've heard this murmured from a number of people in the medical and social service worlds that I would like to see some proper non-biased study into this.

It would be an absolute bitch of a study to conduct (privacy, ethics, how to define an unconventional name, how to tell the difference between a strangely-spelled 'normal' name and a different name completely) but if it's true it could be very useful for enabling better targeting of support services for children at risk.

In short you seem to be suggesting that if parents are bad enought to give a child an "unhelpful" name then they are more likely to be abusive? I like your thinking.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Anecdotes suggest there is a link between "unconventional" names (or unconventional spellings of names) and presentation rates at Accident & Emergency for children. I expect that anecdotes will exaggerate this (a nurse will be more likely to remember asking how to spell a name like Pyx-underscore-e than a conventional name like John) but I've heard this murmured from a number of people in the medical and social service worlds that I would like to see some proper non-biased study into this.

It would be an absolute bitch of a study to conduct (privacy, ethics, how to define an unconventional name, how to tell the difference between a strangely-spelled 'normal' name and a different name completely) but if it's true it could be very useful for enabling better targeting of support services for children at risk.
In short you seem to be suggesting that if parents are bad enought to give a child an "unhelpful" name then they are more likely to be abusive? I like your thinking.

I am not suggesting anything about abuse (or neglect, or simply a need for better support in learning how to parent), I am merely stating that I've heard enough murmurs about this being noticed at three particular hospitals in Adelaide that I think it should be checked out properly to allow the rumours to be confirmed or debunked . As I said above, I'm completely open to the possibility that A&E staff are just more likely to remember Jaxxxson spelled with three X's who came in with a broken arm because his name was unusual.

Even without assuming that abuse or neglect is going on, parenting is tough and needs good support. Some people have great support from other family members friends or community groups like a local church. Others might be alone, without support from family and not connected with any other community who can support them, so that's where the government needs to step in and give them a helping hand.

I believe that our governments have a duty to do the right thing by our kids, and that this needs to be done proactively. If we can use profiling (on the basis of well-supported analysis of previous patterns) to help those services get to the right people who are more likely to need them, let's do it.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
You realise you could have chosen any nation on earth (or the nation of origin of any poster on the thread) to make that joke but it just happened to be America, again, odd that ...
Well, MT is the OPer...
Oh good. I'm glad I'm not the only who instantly thought that the remark, being about Mousethief, had to be about an American.

I got it. It's kinda funny, even.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I seem to recall that Mr and Mrs Hosea and Mr and Mrs Isaiah had offspring with funny names ...

Lo-Ruhamah = Not Loved

Lo-Ammi = Not My People

I wonder how they turned out ...

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

There is an Alaskan family who blog (simplelivingAK) who have seven children with the following names:

Judah Zachariah
Serenity Rose
Mercy Fire
Destiny Divine
Vision O'YHWH (yes really)
Jerusalem Song
Zeven Arrow (their seventh 'arrow' [Roll Eyes]

)

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I seem to recall that Mr and Mrs Hosea and Mr and Mrs Isaiah had offspring with funny names ...

Lo-Ruhamah = Not Loved

Lo-Ammi = Not My People

I wonder how they turned out ...

I suppose it's better than Maher Shalal Hash Baz = The Plunder Hastens, The Spoil Speeds.

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

I seem to recall a girl going to court in New Zealand over the name her parents gave her - Talula does the Hula from Hawaii.

The judge even removed her from her parent's custody because of the name. The ridicule it caused was considered abuse.

[ 05. January 2013, 19:00: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
You should try having Welsh Nationalists for parents. I am called by 2nd (often bodged) name because only the Welsh can pronounce my first name. Damn you Mum and Dad. LOL.

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

I remember on 'Have I Got News For You' they were all making fun of someone who'd named his son Euryn, mis-pronouncing it as 'urine' instead of the correct 'eye-rin'. I thought it made them look pretty ignorant, given that Wales is next door. You don't have to speak French to know that a man named Jean doesn't pronounce it Gene.

Posted by Sleepwalker (# 15343) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
I remember on 'Have I Got News For You' they were all making fun of someone who'd named his son Euryn, mis-pronouncing it as 'urine' instead of the correct 'eye-rin'. I thought it made them look pretty ignorant, given that Wales is next door. You don't have to speak French to know that a man named Jean doesn't pronounce it Gene.

Except, of course, they will have known about the correct pronunciation which is why they took the mick, and why it was funny. After all, HIGNFY is satire.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I'm just astonished that there are as many as 1,853 girls' names on the approved list. That's a huge variety of names.

In 2011, there were just over 5,000 girls named Amelia in England and Wales, making it the most popular name that year. By the time you get to the 100th most popular, Lydia, there were 589. I suspect that there were either a) less than 1,853 different girls names used in England and Wales that year or b) that the 1,853rd name was used only once.

Iceland has a much smaller population. Surely 1,853 is enough of a choice for anyone?

NEQ, whose daughter has a middle name used only 6 times in Scotland since 1855.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Some people just want to jump and down and say "look, I'm different and cool".

The problem is that the way they do this is by making a decision that affects their child, not them.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

1853 is however less of a huge selection when there are many different ethnic groups in a country - and a list of approved names that doesn't take into account different ethnic and cultural names would be a big problem for a lot of people. I am guessing that Iceland is more ethnically and culturally homogenous, however aside from the gendered grammar issue, I think enshrining name rules in law is rather harsh. An offensive name should be disallowed but Blaer (or the feminine form of that) is hardly offensive.

Individualistic perhaps, but imo being able to name one's child freely (without causing offence or harm) is a personal liberty I think people should have.

[ 05. January 2013, 23:55: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am guessing that Iceland is more ethnically and culturally homogenous

Yes. In fact, the people of Iceland are constantly poked and prodded for genetic studies by the world's scientists because of their unusual nature as an ethnic group that developed largely in isolation for centuries.

Posted by Ondergard (# 9324) on :

It's the girls called Madison and the boys called Jayden or LeShawna, or various other abominations, which make me shudder - that's along with the deliberate mis-spellings (Shawn, Neave), and the ridiculous and growing habit of giving a child a diminutive instead of its original (Harry/Henry/Hal, Albert/Bertie, Alfred/Alfie, Victoria/Vicki, etc).

It's just so obvious that their parents, far from being different and cool, are unimaginative and conventional - it's just that the convention is growing to pick a name some vapid celebrity has invented for him or herself, or some soap opera scriptwriter had purloined.

I bloody hate it, and I just cannot help but indulge in a reflex sneer when asked on the phone if someone can get their baybee done on .... and they want me to be baptising their sprog with one of these bloody silly names.

I'm probably wrong to feel this way, but I can't help but wonder what sort of life you are setting your child up for if his only given name (true) is "Buddy" or (again, true) "Buster", or she is called only (true) "Minnie" or (again, true) "Tiny".

I wish our government would issue a list, and all these shallow vapid in-the-moment frothy names were banned.

[ 06. January 2013, 00:15: Message edited by: Ondergard ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
It's the girls called Madison and the boys called Jayden or LeShawna, or various other abominations, which make me shudder - that's along with the deliberate mis-spellings (Shawn, Neave)

I once came across a Swavette. And at the opposite end of the spectrum, there was Michele (pronounced MISH-uh-lee).

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

All names go through trends, though, and some Puritan names were just as silly as some fashionable names are now. My own name was popular in the 80s and 90s but less popular now. Yes, there are some names that are trendy right now and won't last but the most popular names are usually quite standard. The top five boys' names in 2011 were Harry, Oliver, Jack, Alfie and Charlie. The top five girls' names in the same year were Amelia, Olivia, Lily, Jessica and Emily. Not ridiculous at all.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Alfie? [Eek!]

Nominative determinism suggests that the streets are going to be full of charming little gangsters in about 20 years.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Alfie has been incredibly popular for years, as has Charlie. Not to my taste and a bit twee, but not offensive.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

Names do go in cycles and also vary country to country (even amongst English speaking countries). It can be quite fun looking at the US Social Security baby name page and tracing names back in time.

Vicky for instance was the 142nd most popular girl's name in 1957 in the US and Vicki was number 50 in 1954 (Victoria peaked at 74 in the same time frame). It is entirely possible that a new baby girl to be called Vicki may be named after a grandmother or favorite great aunt. Harry btw was number 9 in 1892 (Henry was equally popular at number 10, Hal was in the 300s at the same time). Madison was number 2 in 2001/2002 but only broke the top 1000 in 1985.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In fact, the people of Iceland are constantly poked and prodded for genetic studies by the world's scientists because of their unusual nature as an ethnic group that developed largely in isolation for centuries.

The lie that they all have twelve fingers is just that.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The top five boys' names in 2011 were Harry, Oliver, Jack, Alfie and Charlie. The top five girls' names in the same year were Amelia, Olivia, Lily, Jessica and Emily. Not ridiculous at all.

Four out of those five boys' names are the diminutives of real names. So that is ridiculous.

How can an adult go through life explaining 'No, I'm not Alfred'?

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by Ondegard:

quote:
all these shallow vapid in-the-moment frothy names were banned.

The uber-chav names of the late 1850s/ early 1860s, were Florence and Alma - the former after the celeb of the Crimean War Florence Nightingale, the latter after the Battle of Alma. Neither sounds "chavvy" now; indeed our own dear Prime Minister has a daughter named Florence. But at the time there was much sneering over the sort of person who named their child after something they saw in the papers.

[ 06. January 2013, 08:42: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Alfie?

Nominative determinism suggests that the streets are going to be full of charming little gangsters in about 20 years.

Friends and relations in the teaching profession suggest that "Kyle" is the name to beware of.

Posted by Meg the Red (# 11838) on :

When my mother was teaching, she told beginning educators to beware of any child named Jason or Tiffany. More recently, Mr. Red has identifed boys named Kane/Kain/Cain as The Ones To Watch.

A couple of months ago, I saw a registration for a young boy whose middle name is Lucifer. Yup, there oughta be a law.

Posted by anne (# 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Meg the Red:
When my mother was teaching, she told beginning educators to beware of any child named Jason or Tiffany. More recently, Mr. Red has identifed boys named Kane/Kain/Cain as The Ones To Watch.

A couple of months ago, I saw a registration for a young boy whose middle name is Lucifer. Yup, there oughta be a law.

I've never known a "Christian*" who wasn't, um, a delightful little bundle of challenges.

anne

*as a name rather than a vocation

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Didn't the names of months for girls, at least for the spring season, enjoy vogue at one time: April, May, June? I've also known a March and a Winter.

And there have been men named August, although I imagine in honor of the Roman emperor, not of the month.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Although I have been known to raise an eyebrow at a Jack who is not John, I have better cause than most to know that sometimes, being given a diminutive rather than the full name as you given name can be a kindness. I was named after my Aunt Gertie, beloved by all the family, but not even she herself liked either Gertrude or Gertie. Gertrude is also one of those old-fashioned names, like Bertha and Hilda, that are probably never going to make a trendy comeback as Olivia, Lydia or Emily have done.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Alfie?

Nominative determinism suggests that the streets are going to be full of charming little gangsters in about 20 years.
Friends and relations in the teaching profession suggest that "Kyle" is the name to beware of.

Hmm. As in the Revd Dr Ian Richard Kyle Paisley, aka Baron Bannside? [Ultra confused]

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

My father was Russian Orthodox (Agnostic branch) and always said that properly speaking one should only call one's children after saints. He (I hope) jokingly objected to the name I chose for one of my daughters - Ruth - and when I pointed out that the name was biblical, he said the Old Testament didn't count.

Recently I told a Russian friend that I'd come to think that one of my great-grandmothers was from a family of baptised Jews, and her response was: Well, I always assumed you had Jewish connections because of the name you chose for your daughter.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The top five boys' names in 2011 were Harry, Oliver, Jack, Alfie and Charlie. The top five girls' names in the same year were Amelia, Olivia, Lily, Jessica and Emily. Not ridiculous at all.
Four out of those five boys' names are the diminutives of real names. So that is ridiculous.

How can an adult go through life explaining 'No, I'm not Alfred'?

I've never known an adult Alfie who did have to explain such a thing. Those names ARE real names, because they are the full first names of people - that's what makes them real, not one's opinion. Harry, Alfie and Charlie sound nicer to most people than Harold/Henry, Alfred and Charles which is why they're used. Daisy is a diminutive of Margaret (because Marguerite is a kind of daisy) but nobody seems to object to that also being popular.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
My father was Russian Orthodox (Agnostic branch) and always said that properly speaking one should only call one's children after saints. He (I hope) jokingly objected to the name I chose for one of my daughters - Ruth - and when I pointed out that the name was biblical, he said the Old Testament didn't count.

Recently I told a Russian friend that I'd come to think that one of my great-grandmothers was from a family of baptised Jews, and her response was: Well, I always assumed you had Jewish connections because of the name you chose for your daughter.

The RO(A)s are evidently a deviant lot, as many Orthodox children are named after OT figures -- Elias (aka Elija) David, and Daniel are pretty common around Ottawa and, of course, there is Isaaky, Alexandr Solzhenitsyn's father. And who can forget Melchisidek of Pittsburgh, who surely bears the name of a certain OT eminent?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

My friend has just had a baby and called him 'Alfred' - she will not hear of him being called 'Alfie'!

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The top five boys' names in 2011 were Harry, Oliver, Jack, Alfie and Charlie. The top five girls' names in the same year were Amelia, Olivia, Lily, Jessica and Emily. Not ridiculous at all.
Four out of those five boys' names are the diminutives of real names. So that is ridiculous.

How can an adult go through life explaining 'No, I'm not Alfred'?
I've never known an adult Alfie who did have to explain such a thing. Those names ARE real names, because they are the full first names of people - that's what makes them real, not one's opinion. Harry, Alfie and Charlie sound nicer to most people than Harold/Henry, Alfred and Charles which is why they're used. Daisy is a diminutive of Margaret (because Marguerite is a kind of daisy) but nobody seems to object to that also being popular.

The problem comes when names have to be written down definitively. There is a widespread assumption that while one is known as Alfie (or Alf), Charlie, Harry or Eddie your given name is Alfred, Charles, Harold/Henry or Edwin/Edward.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Quick, quick, someone call Double-Think ... Mousethief has posted something potentially offensive to Icelandic people ...

Nur-nur-na-nur-nur ... I'm-telling-on-hi-i-i-m ...

[Disappointed]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I knew someone whose birth name was Kate. Her mother said she was only going to be called that anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There was a registrar being interviewed on R4 yesterday who said that she does have a limited power to decline to register a name that is offensive, and also that UK Christian/First names can't have apostrophes in them, something I'd never heard of or even thought of before (why would anyone want to put an apostrophe in a name?). So presumably that allows 'de Ath', but rules out 'Death' or 'd'Ath'.

I saw a mention of someone called Ell'e in the paper recently, and I've seen something like D'Shawn as well. Legal or not, apostrophized names do happen.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

When we were growing up, there was a boy who lived across the street who was named Keefe. My mother always said that he was doomed to go through life having to explain, "No, my name isn't Keith" and "No, I don't have a speech impediment."

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

And then there are the names that are both unfamiliar and bizarrely pronounced. I'm thinking of a girl named "Sharvon" but whose family pronounced it as "Sha - VOHN." (No 'r'.) No one who didn't know her EVER got it right.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Daisy is a diminutive of Margaret (because Marguerite is a kind of daisy) but nobody seems to object to that also being popular.

No it is not. Maggie, Meg and Peggy are. Daisy is a separate name.

Even if a marguerite is a variety of daisy or vice versa, I think the name Margaret, as distinct from Marguerite, actually derives from a word that means pearl. Pearl, of course, is itself a name, and a different one at that, though a bit old fashioned at the moment.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

Even if a marguerite is a variety of daisy or vice versa, I think the name Margaret, as distinct from Marguerite, actually derives from a word that means pearl. Pearl, of course, is itself a name, and a different one at that, though a bit old fashioned at the moment.

It'll return, as will Margaret (my given name but I've been Mags since I was four - Dad's fault)

My friend's new grandchild is called Elsie - a name I never thought would return!

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Daisy is a diminutive of Margaret (because Marguerite is a kind of daisy) but nobody seems to object to that also being popular.
No it is not. Maggie, Meg and Peggy are. Daisy is a separate name.

Even if a marguerite is a variety of daisy or vice versa, I think the name Margaret, as distinct from Marguerite, actually derives from a word that means pearl. Pearl, of course, is itself a name, and a different one at that, though a bit old fashioned at the moment.

No, Daisy is commonly listed as a diminutive for Margaret, see here and all the baby name books I've ever seen. And Marguerite and Margaret are the same name...? Just in different languages, like Mary and Maria.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
There is the case (in the US, I have to mention as a point of accuracy) of a child being christened Ne-a (pronounced "Nedasha)

If you could provide documentation for this, that'd be great :-)

This is a new, misspelled version of an old story (Le-a supposedly "Ledasha") that Snopes regards as fictitious racist bullshit.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

It can be an issue.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

And besides: Elvis is okay but not Blær?!

Elvis is an ancient Celtic saint's name. An Irish missionary to Britain. There are a number of St Elvis's churches in Wales.

So what's so not ok about it?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
And then there are the names that are both unfamiliar and bizarrely pronounced. I'm thinking of a girl named "Sharvon" but whose family pronounced it as "Sha - VOHN." (No 'r'.) No one who didn't know her EVER got it right.

Might this be some distant rendering of Siobhan, by a family which had heard the name but never seen it written down?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

And besides: Elvis is okay but not Blær?!
Elvis is an ancient Celtic saint's name. An Irish missionary to Britain. There are a number of St Elvis's churches in Wales.

So what's so not ok about it?

Maybe because Celts aren't Icelanders? Or even close?

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

Icelanders are partially descendents of Celts though.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Icelanders are partially descendents of Celts though.

Indeed, so. The genetic researchers were delighted to be able to prove this-- the Vikings were great harvesters of slaves from Irish villages, taking off the fourth and fifth forms from the local Loretto College with regularity. There is also a study of Celtic vocabulary in Old Icelandic, much of it centring on care of dairy cattle.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Icelanders are partially descendents of Celts though.

Their language, however, is not, and judging by the crap about masculine and feminine articles, it is the language, not the bloodline, that is the issue.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Quoth Mousethief: "Crap about masculine and feminine articles"

Spoken like a true unilingual anglophone. The ghosts of the British Empire applaud you! (and look what happened to that empire)

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
There is the case (in the US, I have to mention as a point of accuracy) of a child being christened Ne-a (pronounced "Nedasha)
If you could provide documentation for this, that'd be great :-)

This is a new, misspelled version of an old story (Le-a supposedly "Ledasha") that Snopes regards as fictitious racist bullshit.

I don't know about that one, but we had a student at my work some years ago who's name was D'rra. Pronounced "Diarra".

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

That one doesn't sound like an error or a confusion about punctuation though. That just sounds like a case where names without vowels get vowels naturally stuck in. She'd have to be Durra or something if she weren't Diarra.

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

If this were an Italian community and the name was in fact D'Arra with the first A there, then Di Arra would be how you would pronounce that. But in the USA that kind of thing usually gets rendered as DiArra or Di Arra, primarily due to the way that immigration authorities transcribed names according to how they sounded rather than the actual spelling.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Quoth Mousethief: "Crap about masculine and feminine articles"

Spoken like a true unilingual anglophone. The ghosts of the British Empire applaud you! (and look what happened to that empire)

Take it to hell or walk it back.

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
That one doesn't sound like an error or a confusion about punctuation though. That just sounds like a case where names without vowels get vowels naturally stuck in. She'd have to be Durra or something if she weren't Diarra.

True. I was merely citing it as a case of oddly-spelled naming- not necessarily entirely analogous to the "Le-a" case, but interesting nonetheless. (Incidentally, her mother was quite incensed when staff, not knowing any better, mispronounced it as "Durra".)

In another building, we had a student named Chezrounda. (Pronounced "Sharonda".) Interesting spellings are a fact of life around here.

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
If this were an Italian community and the name was in fact D'Arra with the first A there, then Di Arra would be how you would pronounce that.

The student in question wasn't Italian, to my knowledge- the school I worked in at that time was better than 90% African American. (Those aren't mutually exclusive, of course.)

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

Re: D'rra and D'Shawn:

I wonder whether the parents were possibly thinking of certain well-known African names like Nkrumah (pr. en-KROO-mah).

I realize that this is s surname, but the pronunciation issue is the same.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Icelanders are partially descendents of Celts though.
Their language, however, is not, and judging by the crap about masculine and feminine articles, it is the language, not the bloodline, that is the issue.

Grammatical genders, not articles, MT. The grammatical gender of the noun affects the form of the adjective. Truly, I am surprised that an adherent of Orthodoxy of the Russian persuasion would not know how central this is to many languages. Russian, like Icelandic, has three genders, Masculine, Feminine and Neuter.

Of course this all leads to the ancient blessing: "May your nouns and adjectives always agree, both in gender and in number."

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I'm sorry, I'm used to languages (French, German, and Spanish) in which the grammatical gender is directly reflected in the article. Thus I spoke loosely. Perhaps this is not the case in Icelandic, and the adjectives reflect grammatical gender but the articles do not. Except a quick Google shows that they do.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm sorry, I'm used to languages (French, German, and Spanish) in which the grammatical gender is directly reflected in the article. Thus I spoke loosely. Perhaps this is not the case in Icelandic, and the adjectives reflect grammatical gender but the articles do not. Except a quick Google shows that they do.

Google is not entirely correct. There are nouns in Icelandic where the article (which is a suffix to the noun) is declined in a different gender than the noun to which it is attached. And, moreover, there are instances (many years ago a cheerful speech therapist from Akureyri sang me a mnemonic ditty to illustrate this, but in circumstances which I will spare shipmates) where the adjective can be declined in gender other than the noun it describes. And we will pass over the whole situation of middle, strong, and weak nouns, where internal vowels can shift when a suffix of another gender is affixed. Is it a wonder that they have a high suicide rate?

There were many joys of my visits to Iceland in the late 1970s, but Icelandic grammar was not among them.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
There are nouns in Icelandic where the article (which is a suffix to the noun) is declined in a different gender than the noun to which it is attached.

Then little Blær isn't asking for anything the language isn't capable of doing? Then the government's argument about problems with noun gender is a bunch of hooey.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

But it's possible to construct sentences in English that are grammatically perfect while making no sense whatsoever.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But it's possible to construct sentences in English that are grammatically perfect while making no sense whatsoever.

What does that have to do with it? The question is whether a sentence with "Blær" in it can be constructed in Icelandic so that it does make sense. And it would appear that it can. What does the (undeniable) existence of well-formed sentences in English (or Icelandic) that are meaningless have to do with it at all?

Posted by sandushinka (# 13021) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo: And as for Russians expecting people to write in Cyrillic...

I once worked on a project where we had a need to type in Russian. We had the phonetic keyboard layouts installed because we weren't native speakers and it was much easier to remember A=A B=Б S=С and only learn the letters that don't map than to learn a whole new layout. Then we had someone start who was a native speaker and the phonetic keyboard drove her crazy. So we had to have the normal Russian keyboard installed on her machine. She was quite happy after that. It's all in what you learned on.

Posted by sandushinka (# 13021) on :

A Russian friend of mine has an older aunt named Kommunisticheskaya Partiya (Communist Party). They call her Aunt Koma (sort of like Aunt Commie) for short.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
There are nouns in Icelandic where the article (which is a suffix to the noun) is declined in a different gender than the noun to which it is attached.
Then little Blær isn't asking for anything the language isn't capable of doing? Then the government's argument about problems with noun gender is a bunch of hooey.

I think, Mousethief, that if Blær isn't already among those nouns, then it can't be. They have an Académie française sort of body which keeps the exceptions table in order. They have an approach to the language which quite mystifies anglophones, who are not used to verbal regulation.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Sigh. No doubt you're right there.

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But it's possible to construct sentences in English that are grammatically perfect while making no sense whatsoever.

Certainly. Shipmates do it all the time. [Biased]

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

MT: quote: "Take it to hell or walk it back."

I'm not the one who is being rude about people who live in a different country and have different customs.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I disagree with the decision of a court in a foreign country, and this makes insulting me okay? The fuck you say.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

If you want to get personal, take it to hell.

Doublethink
Purgatory Host

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sandushinka:
A Russian friend of mine has an older aunt named Kommunisticheskaya Partiya (Communist Party). They call her Aunt Koma (sort of like Aunt Commie) for short.

Just as much as names like 'Ice Cream', 'La-a', 'Sunday Peaches' or 'Alfie rather than Alfred', that seems like a good argument in favour of the Icelandic government.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
In a language like Icelandic, which has grammatical gender, it could be confusing and odd to give a girl a name which is grammatically masculine. Do you refer to the girl as "she" or "he"? Either may sound odd for different reasons.

Spanish has a number of anomalies of this kind. Some female names are actually aspects of the Virgin Mary, and the words themselves can therefore be masculine or even plural.

Examples: Dolores (pains or sorrows (!), as in 'Our Lady of Sorrows'); Pilar (pillar, presumably from 'pillar of ivory' in the Litany of Loreto); Carmen (from Mt Carmel, and grammatically masculine).

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Spanish has a number of anomalies of this kind. Some female names are actually aspects of the Virgin Mary, and the words themselves can therefore be masculine or even plural.

Examples: Dolores (pains or sorrows (!), as in 'Our Lady of Sorrows'); Pilar (pillar, presumably from 'pillar of ivory' in the Litany of Loreto); Carmen (from Mt Carmel, and grammatically masculine).

When one is speaking of a particular Dolores, does she take a singular or a plural verb? And likewise, when one is speaking of a particular Pilar or Carmen, does one say the Spanish equivalent of 'he' to agree with the word, or 'she' to agree with the ontological person?

In English the rules governing gender are much more rigid than in many other languages and seem to be becoming more so, but there are several ambiguities over usage that vex pedants when it comes to number.

[ 09. January 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

You would say 'she' in all cases, and all adjectives would be feminine singular, and all verbs would be singular.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

In English the rules governing gender are much more rigid than in many other languages and seem to be becoming more so,

There isn't any concept of grammatical gender in English, surely? Human gender, yes.

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

In English the rules governing gender are much more rigid than in many other languages and seem to be becoming more so,
There isn't any concept of grammatical gender in English, surely? Human gender, yes.

Not now, but there used to be in Old English (aka Anglo-Saxon). Three genders, as in modern German.

I would argue that "human gender" is an unhelpful if not downright meaningless concept, possibly born of mealy-mouthed 'delicacy' - gender sounds more genteel than sex. Animals and plants are male or female as to sex; gender is a grammatical concept affecting the forms of various parts of speech, the classes of which are called, in Latin for instance, masculine, feminine, neuter or common. Other languages vary. Masculine and feminine are not really very helpful labels. A French table isn't female, but a young German woman certainly is, even if the noun 'Mädchen' is neuter - only because all diminutive forms ending in '-chen' are neuter. Old English could produce comparable quirks. 'Woman' is a compound of 'wife' (feminine noun) + 'man' (masculine noun). Compound nouns take the gender of the second element, therefore 'woman' is masculine.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
There isn't any concept of grammatical gender in English, surely? Human gender, yes.

Articles and adjectives do not alter, but grammatically there's a very rigid rule, with hardly any irregularities, that pronouns must agree with the actual gender, or lack of it, of the person or thing they represent. In some circumstances there is more flexibility about number.

I'm sure there are other exceptions in gender, but the only ones I can think of off-hand are:-
- Some people call ships and their cars 'she'.
- You can get away with calling an animal whose gender you don't know 'it', and a foetus is 'it', but heaven help you if you call someone's baby 'it'.
- In the mouths of a few pretentious people, countries are sometimes 'she'.
- Traditionally, an as yet unidentified person was 'he' unless you knew they were going to be 'she', but that is deprecated these days. It is replaced by 'he or she' which takes a singular verb, or 'they' which takes a plural one.
- Pedants argue about whether a singular 'semi-abstract' noun that represents a group of people, like council or committee is 'it' or 'they', but once you choose a pronoun, the verb must agree with it and vice versa.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
There isn't any concept of grammatical gender in English, surely?

He. She.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
There isn't any concept of grammatical gender in English, surely?
He. She.

That's not grammatical gender.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
There isn't any concept of grammatical gender in English, surely?
He. She.
That's not grammatical gender.

Then what, O Wise One, is grammatical gender, that articles of English grammar don't exhibit it?

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
In linguistics, grammatical gender is a system of noun classification present in approximately one fourth of the world's languages. In these languages, every noun must pertain to one category called gender The different genders form a closed set of usually 2 or 3 divisions, in which all the nouns are included. Very few items can belong to several classes at once. Common gender divisions include: masculine, feminine, neuter, animate, or inanimate.

quote:
Modern English is not considered to have grammatical gender, although historically it did.

result of 5 seconds spent on Wikipedia

You're welcome.

[ 11. January 2013, 14:21: Message edited by: jbohn ]

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
In a language like Icelandic, which has grammatical gender, it could be confusing and odd to give a girl a name which is grammatically masculine. Do you refer to the girl as "she" or "he"? Either may sound odd for different reasons.
Spanish has a number of anomalies of this kind. Some female names are actually aspects of the Virgin Mary, and the words themselves can therefore be masculine or even plural.

Examples: Dolores (pains or sorrows (!), as in 'Our Lady of Sorrows'); Pilar (pillar, presumably from 'pillar of ivory' in the Litany of Loreto); Carmen (from Mt Carmel, and grammatically masculine).

Those names are either titles (or attributes & aspects, as you say) of the Virgin Mary or the names of places where she has appeared or that house a holy or miraculous image of her.

The name "Pilar" derives not from "Pillar" or really "Tower of Ivory" in the Litany of Loreto but good guess! It actually comes from the appearance she made to St. James over a column or pilar in Zaragoza, Aragon, Spain. Under the title "Our Lady of the Pilar" she is patroness of Zaragoza and Aragon.

Some of these names can also be either female or male without necessarily adding or changing a final vowel. "Guadalupe" is usually a female name but it can also be a male name in Mexico and I've met at least one male "Carmen" though the male name "Carmelo" also exists.

These names traditionally were second or middle names that came after María (of course) in the case of women or another name, typically José, Juan or Jesús for men as in the name "José Maria" (Joseph Mary).

In the Hispanic world people often go by second names or nicknames, maybe because María, José, and Jesús are such common first names. For instance in Mexico, "María de Lourdes" might go by "Lourdes", "Marilú", or "Lulú"; or maybe "Lola" or "Lolita" (like Madonna's daughter) but those are often nicknames for "Dolores". Guys named José María often go by the nickname "Chema".

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
When one is speaking of a particular Dolores, does she take a singular or a plural verb? And likewise, when one is speaking of a particular Pilar or Carmen, does one say the Spanish equivalent of 'he' to agree with the word, or 'she' to agree with the ontological person?

When one speaks of a particular "Dolores" (or someone with a similar name like "Mercedes") she takes a singular verb or adjective. When one speaks of a particular Pilar or Carmen one uses the pronoun that agrees with the person not the name so one would use the Spanish equivalent of "she" or female "the", i.e. "la Pilar" or "la Carmen".

In English it sounds funny to speak of people as "the Enoch" or "the Ricardus" but it sometimes happens in Spanish as in the title of a zarzuela (Spanish operetta) called "La Dolores".

[ 27. January 2013, 02:11: Message edited by: Pancho ]

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My friend has just had a baby and called him 'Alfred' - she will not hear of him being called 'Alfie'!

Maybe she won't like it, but when he gets to school , it's odds-on that his class mates will give him a shortened version. It would be a certainty in Australia.

Posted by Thread Necromancer (# 17559) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Every language has a different keyboard layout.

-10 points, O dweller underneath the Onion Dome. Does Father VAsily Vasilyvich not type?

You've got a typo in there I think.

The nails from a suicide's coffin, and the skull of the parricide, were of course no trouble; for Vesquit never traveled without these household requisites. - Aleister Crowley

[ 11. February 2013, 21:13: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Where's Cthulu when you need him?

"I throw a joke into the air, and where is lands I do not care." Or something.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0