Ship of Fools: Fruit

Thread: Fruit Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Waterchaser (# 11005) on :

I wanted to discuss the fruit of the Spirit.
There seem to have been quite a few discussions about gifts of the Spirit on the ship and to what extent various expressions of them in the present day church are valid/deluded/fraudulent..

What about the Fruit of the spirit. My questions are:

1) If love,joy, peace, patience etc are "fruit of the spirit" does this mean that they are supernatural? I have known and seen Christians who appear to have at least some of the character qualities at an level that really stands out; but there isn't any simple correlation between these qualities and whether someone is or isn't a christian.
In my experience there is at least some correlation but I doubt that is the universal experience of everyone on these boards.

2) More importantly and personally - how do I increase in these qualities (in which I freely admit I am deficient!)? The fact that they are fruit suggests to me that there is process involved (growth) rather than instantaneou crisis experience producing them. However the fact that they are "fruit of the spirit" says to me that they are supernatural and I won't produce them from my good efforts and willpower alone.

Is obedience to what God is saying the key, spending time in his presence (whatever that means); working hard to do the right thing?

Thoughts?

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

I would say that they are natural human qualities that are sometimes distorted or hidden by sin. When a person is filled with the life of Christ then these qualities are allowed to flourish, by the Spirit's sanctifying work, as they were intended to.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

It depends what you mean by supernatural, they are qualities that originate in God. That said we are made in God's image and therefore they have a very deep foundation within humans. The fact that so often they do not shine forth is the sign of how deeply that image is marred.

Jengie

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

I don't think they are supernatural, in the sense of being extraordinary or exclusively for Christians. Any person can show kindness, gentleness, patience and so on. I suppose you could argue that it's all God at work in us, whether or not we realise and acknowledge that...

As for how to develop the fruits of the Spirit, hmm... My glib answer is apple trees produce apples by their very nature, so a person in whom the Holy Spirit is present and active will naturally produce the fruit of the Spirit.

How one becomes such a person is a big question, of course, and gets us into the huge issue of spiritual formation. But I guess the point for me is that we don't strive and strain to show kindness, goodness and so on; rather our effort is in seeking to live in a way that opens us up to God's transforming power - submitting to his ways and letting him mould our spirit.

I'm trying to explain without waffling or using a load of jargon - not finding this easy!

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I would say that they are natural human qualities that are sometimes distorted or hidden by sin. When a person is filled with the life of Christ then these qualities are allowed to flourish, by the Spirit's sanctifying work, as they were intended to.

I would agree with the first part of that. However there are many non-Christians who have these qualities in abundance - if they're not filled by the life of Christ, then how come they have them? Do they have less sin to distort/hide those qualities?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

The metaphor of fruit has always been a little difficult for me. Maybe it has to do with the kind of fruit we have here in our 90 frost free days each year. Considering a tree grows, if a flowering cherry or apple, develops flowers, bees visit, the flowers die, and are replaced by developing apples or cherries, which then ripen to edible if frost, bugs or blight doesn't take them.

So the spirit is the bee? I've always wondered if my flower was somehow missed in the visits. I've observed people who suggest they have definite experiences, rather clearly defined, that inspire and motivate. Some of these seem to be stated definitely enough, that they seem true, and others designed more to convince the person telling versus the rest of us. I think I'm identifying the spirit as a sense of presence or altered experience rather than a "gift".

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Just thinking out loud, not polished thinking -- could the fruit of the spirit be describing the personality that results from focus on God's values, in contrast to the personality that develops from focus on the values of the culture?

Any culture. (Or at least, almost any.) Cultures are the product of fallen humans pursuing fallen values.

I think God did/does a lot to reveal self to people everywhere, and that's why you get similar ethics from different religions, similar encouragements to not pursue materialism, etc. I can think Christianity offers a fuller picture without thinking "anything the Buddha said must be wrong!" So it's not solely about Christianity vs everyone else.

But Christianity vs the culture, yes. Cultures tend to emphasize "fitting in" and ostracize anyone perceived as "different" while Christianity says "make friends with the social rejects, they are real people too." Roman culture was brutal in many ways. USA culture is "pursue money" and pervasively teaches competition, even inside church sometimes -- Easter egg hunts are competitive, as are any Bible games with winners and losers.

I'm currently taking a free Game Theory course on line (through Coursera), the whole thing seems to be about getting the best advantage for me and to hell with everyone else. Concepts like love your neighbor, to what is honest, are irrelevant, counter to the goal of "winning" the game.

For example, one game was about bypassing the usual internet protocol to get a 4 millisecond faster routing, which if many people did it would crash the internet. In discussion when I said "what about valuing the system for all including me?" every response but one was "temporary personal advantage is the only thing that matters."

If winning is what matters, then love joy peace patience etc are counter cultural.

Looking to God's values probably does take supernatural guidance because without a clear vision of God, and a strong belief that God's counter-cultural ways matter more than winning and getting rich and fitting in, etc, you'll give in to the cultural insistence that abandoning "me first" behavior proves you a worthless idiot.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Waterchaser asks:
1) If love,joy, peace, patience etc are "fruit of the spirit" does this mean that they are supernatural?

I'm always uncomfortable with the use of the word Supernatural. It always seems to connote something extra, spiritual, non-physical, and distant; or, something that is somehow less real and less accessible than, say, simple nature, for lack of a better term.

What is this supernature super to? Human nature? Or, divine nature? Is there a third sort of nature we should be looking to.

I'm reminded of this collect, used on the Second Sunday after Christmas in the Episcopal Church:

quote:
O God, who didst wonderfully create, and yet more wonderfully restore, the dignity of human nature: Grant that we may share the divine life of him who humbled himself to share our humanity, thy Son Jesus Christ; who liveth and reigneth with thee, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I would say that they are natural human qualities that are sometimes distorted or hidden by sin. When a person is filled with the life of Christ then these qualities are allowed to flourish, by the Spirit's sanctifying work, as they were intended to.
I would agree with the first part of that. However there are many non-Christians who have these qualities in abundance - if they're not filled by the life of Christ, then how come they have them? Do they have less sin to distort/hide those qualities?

Of course they have them - in equal amounts or equal deficiencies. My point is not that Cjhruistians have them and non-Christians don't - god forbid - but that if a person who is a bad-tempered old sod gets saved, the difference in his life will see the fruit of joy and patience grow. The fact that his next door neighbour might be joyful and patient as well as being a total atheist has nothing to do with anything and certainly does not negate the grace that the newly saved 'bad-tempered old sod' has received.

Having said that, the unsaved 'Mr joyful and patient' next door will most likely lack in pother areas - he might be totally lacking in self-control or inner peace. That's where the grace of God would want to do its work in him if he ever turned to Christ.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The metaphor of fruit has always been a little difficult for me. Maybe it has to do with the kind of fruit we have here in our 90 frost free days each year. Considering a tree grows, if a flowering cherry or apple, develops flowers, bees visit, the flowers die, and are replaced by developing apples or cherries, which then ripen to edible if frost, bugs or blight doesn't take them.

So the spirit is the bee? I've always wondered if my flower was somehow missed in the visits. I've observed people who suggest they have definite experiences, rather clearly defined, that inspire and motivate. Some of these seem to be stated definitely enough, that they seem true, and others designed more to convince the person telling versus the rest of us. I think I'm identifying the spirit as a sense of presence or altered experience rather than a "gift".

Do you never read books or watch TV? Why does your interpretation of the truth of Scripture have to tie in only with your immediate experience? There are plenty of places where fruit grows.

And it's nothing to do with bees.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I would say that they are natural human qualities that are sometimes distorted or hidden by sin. When a person is filled with the life of Christ then these qualities are allowed to flourish, by the Spirit's sanctifying work, as they were intended to.
I would agree with the first part of that. However there are many non-Christians who have these qualities in abundance - if they're not filled by the life of Christ, then how come they have them? Do they have less sin to distort/hide those qualities?
Of course they have them - in equal amounts or equal deficiencies. My point is not that Cjhruistians have them and non-Christians don't - god forbid - but that if a person who is a bad-tempered old sod gets saved, the difference in his life will see the fruit of joy and patience grow. The fact that his next door neighbour might be joyful and patient as well as being a total atheist has nothing to do with anything and certainly does not negate the grace that the newly saved 'bad-tempered old sod' has received.

Having said that, the unsaved 'Mr joyful and patient' next door will most likely lack in pother areas - he might be totally lacking in self-control or inner peace. That's where the grace of God would want to do its work in him if he ever turned to Christ.

But 'the unsaved Mr Joyful and Patient' doesn't sound any different to the average Christian - all Christians have varying amounts of fruit of the spirit as is self-evident by their different personalities. I also know plenty of Christians who are definite grumpy old sods! Perhaps it's my ex-evangelical cynicism but regarding fruit of the spirit, I see precious little difference between Christians and non-Christians in this area.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Indeed - maybe he needs some grace to make him behave in a way that ties in with his beliefs. Just calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you one - by their fruits you shall know them.

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

You don't have to be a Christian to show patience, kindness, and the rest or it. So it's more about what produces these characteristics in you. There's something unique in the experience of a believer in Christ that motivates and produces these fruit - the Spirit of God. And I'd say it's not just about the Spirit working in us, but more the whole work of God to engineer situations which provide fertile soil in which the fruit can grow.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I am mildly intrigued by what a spiritual vegetable would be, and should a good Christian be aiming for five a day ?

[I'll get my coat ...]

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
Is obedience to what God is saying the key, spending time in his presence (whatever that means); working hard to do the right thing?

Thoughts?

I'd say that yes, working hard to obey what God is saying and do the right thing is key, but not because we achieve anything by working hard or because it merits us anything. Rather, it's because God wants to change us to be able to receive as much of what he has to offer as possible, but only to the degree that we freely choose to accept that change and become a different person. And the best way we have to fully commit ourselves to our choice is by living it every chance we get. If we believe that what God says is true and good and worthwhile, then that belief only becomes real to the extent that we actually try to live accordingly.

The one with the most faith is not the person who decides to cross the bridge, it's the person who crosses it every day, all day long.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

To borrow a theme from another thread what about Christians with depression. Is the holy spirit not stronger than chemicals?

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

ISTM that the point of that passage in Scripture (Galatians 5:16-26 to give some wider context; v. 22-23 list the fruit of the Spirit) is to contrast the fruit of the Spirit with the works of the flesh. In other words, it points to the ultimate source of our human behavior, but it also repudiates any idea that those behaviors listed as works of the flesh could be coming from the Spirit. The point is to admonish believers to choose behaviors that are consonant with life in the Spirit. If it were about supernatural gifts or even simple nature, we wouldn't need the admonition, nor the statement, "Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. [v. 16-17, NRSV]"

It reminds me of that parable about the grandfather who tells his grandson that there are two wolves fighting in us: one that is angry, vengeful, and violent, and one that is compassionate and loving. "Which one will win?" asks the grandson. "The one you feed," the grandfather replies.

[One telling of that parable can be found here: I don't place any stock in whether that story really is of Native American origin; I think it makes a good point - and I think it's essentially what this Galatians passage is getting at. The Spirit is the good wolf; feed it.]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am mildly intrigued by what a spiritual vegetable would be, and should a good Christian be aiming for five a day ?

[I'll get my coat ...]

Actually

That might make a great sermon!Vegetables keep you healthy, give you the right vitamins, enhance performance. And 'five a day' - regular portions of healthy, life-giving nutrients.

It does sound just like fruit, in that respect, I suppose. But vegetables are generally harder to serve to people - people are fussier over their veg. And harder to cook. Not many can be taken raw!

Posted by poileplume (# 16438) on :

Perhaps I can provide part of the answer from psychology. We are in an interaction with our environment. The side we know well is that we influence our environment, we do things in the world and to the world. The side that we don’t often dwell on is that environment also influences us, especially how we react to our environment.

It is well established that if we change our life style and how we react to our environment that will alter our personality. Now in adults that tends to be medium to long term. Waterchaser that would correspond to your fruit growing rather than your instant conversion.

Thus if we resolve every day to live a bit more of a real Christian life, we will react differently to our environment and in time that will start to change us.

Going a bit deeper, if we keep rehearsing Christian attitudes then that will in turn work back to changing our emotions. (That bit is rather shorthanded, plus I am getting outside my expertise field in psychology but I hope you get what I mean)

I recognise that this is only part of the issue, I am leaving out direct revelation – however you want to define that – and probably loads else for which I will be justifiably corrected. However this bit may be helpful. I other words, the concept of fruit seems to be valid.
(Now let me see, I really must practise not getting irritated, try humility - oh the list is so so long)

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
To borrow a theme from another thread what about Christians with depression. Is the holy spirit not stronger than chemicals?

It'd be nice to think so . The evidence does however appear to be to the contrary .

Why does Christian practice so readily invite Black Dog rather than the 'Fruits of the Spirit' described by St Paul ?

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

The Holy Spirit does not routinely heal belivers of toothache, cancer, flu or bad eyesight. Why should we expect him to do differently with regards to the illness of depression?

Posted by Waterchaser (# 11005) on :

LC - presumably because joy is one of the fruit of the spirit and on the face of it depression doesn't seem compatible with joy.

I could imagine Jesus suffering from toothache I am not sure I can imagine him suffering from clinical depression.

That doesn't sound very sensitive but I am thinking out loud rather than trying to troll. The person I am closest to in life is on antidepressants, and I can point back to a couple of phases in my life when I may have been experiecing undiagnosed depression and certainly severe stress (which equally is surely incompatible with the fruit of peace!)

[ 18. January 2013, 20:00: Message edited by: Waterchaser ]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Neither is physical agony though, and God certainly does not cure all who suffer agony.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I am in treatment for severe depression which I've suffered from since age three.. And yes, srange as it sounds, I do have joy. That's because joy is not the same thing as happiness or even comfort. I don' t know how to describe it to someone who has not had the simultaneous experience of dreadful depression and spiritual joy, but maybe the extreme example would be Jesus' cry from the cross, "It is finished!" Wish i could explain better...

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I don' t know how to describe it to someone who has not had the simultaneous experience of dreadful depression and spiritual joy, but maybe the extreme example would be Jesus' cry from the cross, "It is finished!" Wish i could explain better...

That example does explain it most eloquently . TY

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I'm glad.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Sorry, I just noticed the question of peace when you're stressed out. For me, that works the same way. I don't get a pass at all on the hurricanes of human life, and I can and do have PTSD and some sort of anxiety disorder. But this is all at the surface and mid-depths of the psychological sea, as it were. The deepest depths, the truly existential stuff, is peace. Even in the middle of horrible stress ( shudder)

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Amen Lamb Chopped, Rolyn. I just ... chopped a huge ramble. The fruits are according to His will and to be begged for. Careful. The first requirement is ferocious pruning.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The metaphor of fruit has always been a little difficult for me. Maybe it has to do with the kind of fruit we have here in our 90 frost free days each year. Considering a tree grows, if a flowering cherry or apple, develops flowers, bees visit, the flowers die, and are replaced by developing apples or cherries, which then ripen to edible if frost, bugs or blight doesn't take them.

So the spirit is the bee? I've always wondered if my flower was somehow missed in the visits. I've observed people who suggest they have definite experiences, rather clearly defined, that inspire and motivate. Some of these seem to be stated definitely enough, that they seem true, and others designed more to convince the person telling versus the rest of us. I think I'm identifying the spirit as a sense of presence or altered experience rather than a "gift".
Do you never read books or watch TV? Why does your interpretation of the truth of Scripture have to tie in only with your immediate experience? There are plenty of places where fruit grows.

And it's nothing to do with bees.

Why would we accept a temperate climate old world centred metaphor? It is very hard to reach people about the Christian story when we have very limited exposure to the things used to make the points. Fruit metaphors miss completely, with fruit trees and berry bushes growing only because of extensive hybridization and because people have grafted the fruit bearing part on to a wild root stock. A wheat metaphor might be more appropriate. (Sheep metaphors also miss here.)

And bees are of course important, and I'm not the originator of the bee metaphor for spirit, though it was used regarding flowers rather than fruit.

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