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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Exorcism
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I had never heard of George Patterson, but his associate, Geoffrey Bull, is a well-known name in Brethren missionary history, having written about his experience of being imprisoned by the Chinese after their invasion of Tibet in 1951.
While the whole obituary is interesting, I was particularly struck by the claim that Patterson had exorcised Keith Moon.
Liberals of course will deny the existence of demons and explain their so-called activities by psychological and physiological causes.
At the other extreme, some penties are capable of producing a demonic explanation for anything remotely untoward in the lives of individuals, churches and nations.
Like, I suspect, other evangelicals, and conservatives from other traditions, I find the subject of demons something of an embarrassment.
It is difficult to deny their existence in the face of Scripture, but we are desperately afraid of attributing to demonic activity anything which could conceivably be a manifestation of a medical or psychiatric condition instead, and require the appropriate professional treatment.
Any thoughts about - or experience in! - this area?
[ 15. January 2013, 06:58: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
He means, I believe, liberal Christians tend not to read the bible as literally as do conservative Christians. But, yes, that still implies some skepticism.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Liberals of course will deny the existence of demons and explain their so-called activities by psychological and physiological causes.
This liberal believes in demons.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Any thoughts about - or experience in! - this area?
I did an essay and presentation on demonic possession for a pastoral counselling course at university a few years ago.
Did a fair bit of reading around and found it curious to note that exorcisms and exorcism ministry in such denominations like Catholicism and Anglicanism are on the rise.
I know that in my diocese we have an exorcist that is licensed for this special ministry by the Archbishop.
Cut a long story short, I concluded by agreeing with Scott Peck (M.D.) that writes in his book (People of the Lie) that evil is real, but very rare in cases of psychiatric illnesses.
I'd take the same road outside psychiatry. Evil, demons etc. are real, but not ubiquitous.
[ 15. January 2013, 07:09: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
I've got a lifetime's experience of not encountering demons, or have I? I'm not sure what those who believe in demons would count. Perhaps things I see every day but call something else?
I believe in evil. I think sexism is evil, for instance, and though I wouldn't use the term supernatural evil, I might describe it as transcendental evil, in that it is a force that operates in and through people and is more than the sum of individual choices. But people who believe in demons tend not to be concerned about sexism, in my experience.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I'm no expert on this stuff nor encountered it very often - even in my full-on charismatic days - but it strikes me, very broadly, that whilst Catholics and Anglican exorcists seem to go round exorcising particular spaces - haunted pubs, poltergeists, things that go bump in the night - charismatic exorcists seem to go in for exorcising people ... which is obviously a lot more harmful potentially ...
There were some high profile cases back in the 1970s in the UK of people who died under apparent 'exorcisms' and one dreadful incident where one highly unbalanced bloke who had apparently been 'exorcised' and filled with the Spirit/speaking in tongues etc became convinced that his wife was demon possessed and promptly went home and ripped her face off with his bare hands.
In passing sentence, the Judge said that the CofE cleric and the local Methodist minister and their followers ought really to be the ones in the dock ...
I suspect it was incidents like this that meant that an emphasis on exorcism and so on wasn't as prominent in subsequent UK charismaticism ... other than at Ellel Grange and other odd-ball outfits.
I've not heard of the Keith Moon incident. Sounds rather dubious to me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Someone committing a terrible assault after an exorcism doesn't falsify the belief that he had a demon, does it? Couldn't it just mean that the exorcism failed? And if you believe in demons, wouldn't you believe they could kill someone?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
It could do ... but it might also call the practice into question. If one took a very literal approach to this, then one could cite that Jesus didn't appear to fail in his exorcisms, or the thing in Acts with the sons of Sceva, 'Jesus we know and Paul we know but who are you?'
Whatever our view of demons and so on, it strikes me that this particular incident - and I've read the details and they aren't pretty - was a case of over-zealous charismatic practice going badly wrong, with a highly vulnerable person convinced of the reality of demons by the actions of a charismatic vicar and Methodist minister and going and literally taking the matter into their own hands.
It also begs the question of the reality of the apparent filling with the Spirit/speaking in tongues event (at least in this particular instance) ... if someone is supposed to be 'filled with the Spirit' then we would expect a rather different outcome to the murder of one's own spouse.
Of course, there are the troubling verses, if one wishes to be literal, in the OT about the Holy Spirit falling on Samson and him going out and wasting Philistines as a result ...
Of course, those wedded to a particular understanding of demonology etc could put up rather reductionist explanations as to what went on in this particular case - but then, I suspect that such people would take a rather reductionist line on most things.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I find it very surprising really that people can still believe that demons, evil spirits, etc exist, in the face of all the medical and scientific information, plus total lack of any such object ever.
I think it is a pity that there is a belief in even metaphorical ones.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I find it very surprising really that people can still believe that demons, evil spirits, etc exist, in the face of all the medical and scientific information, plus total lack of any such object ever.
I think it is a pity that there is a belief in even metaphorical ones.
I agree.
Even Jesus believed epilepsy was caused by demons didn't he? We know different now.
The causes of people's actions are far far better known today. I don't believe in ANY supernatural beings - I don't even think God is supernatural. I think S/he is part of everything that is, not outside it.
I don't use the phrase 'dealing with his demons' but plenty of people, who don't believe in supernatural beings, still do. Maybe metaphorical demons confuse matters?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I think Susan is right in the Christian sense. In Mark's Gospel for instance, Christ's ministry begins by casting out demons and I think thats part of the Christian faith - the casting out of suspicion, of community wreckage through belief in sprites and evil spirits. Christ casts out these destructive beliefs. If you have ever been anywhere where there is a strong belief in this kind of thing you can see how it produces suspicion, distrust and just how much it can destroy communities and relationships, and there's a larger more sinister line to it as well - see Miller's The Crucible as an example.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I find it very surprising really that people can still believe that demons, evil spirits, etc exist, in the face of all the medical and scientific information...
What possible scientific evidence can you have that demons ie evil spirits don't, or can't, exist? What is the relevant "information"?
OK, those who are seein g them on every corner also have no evidence that they do exist (or if they have they haven't shared it) so there is no reason for you to start believing in them in the absence of evidence, but that's a long way from saying that you c an prove they don't exist.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I find it very surprising really that people can still believe that demons, evil spirits, etc exist, in the face of all the medical and scientific information...
What possible scientific evidence can you have that demons ie evil spirits don't, or can't, exist? What is the relevant "information"?
OK, those who are seein g them on every corner also have no evidence that they do exist (or if they have they haven't shared it) so there is no reason for you to start believing in them in the absence of evidence, but that's a long way from saying that you c an prove they don't exist.
Ken, that's not your best work. It's a full toss and can be sent straight to the boundary by reference to Russell's Teapot.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
When Doris and Boogie say that 'metaphorical demons' terminology isn't helpful, what do you mean?
Do you mean that someone who is described as having, say, a demon of laziness, is not meant to be understood as possessed by an actual evil spirit, but just struggling with chronic laziness in an ordinary human way?
In an non-literal way, it is useful or at least okay, surely, for people to describe their 'demons', when referring to their personal faults. One can be hag-ridden without actually being hag ridden, if you see what I mean.
Personally, I'm inclined towards the natural explanations first and foremost. But I feel there must be something supernatural about God's interaction with the world, if for no other reason than to explain the resurrection. With regard to demons, it would appear that medical science offers at least a rational explanation for many of the vagaries of human behaviour. If one's default position is 'unless there are other provable explanations, that's the one I'll stick with' - that's sounds pretty reasonable to me.
However, it's possible some people can only be most effectively helped taking into account their own spirituality and personal beliefs.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
quote:
I know that in my diocese we have an exorcist that is licensed for this special ministry by the Archbishop.
I think ALL CofE Dioceses have a diocesan exorcist. I have met one, then retired, when at a retreat in scotland. Characteristically I found him to be very reticent and reluctant to discuss details. I know that the correct procedure to follow in any case of suspected supernaturally induced pastoral situation is first and foremost to report it to the Bishop. Local ministers are not licensed to deal with such phenomenon ‘on their own’ and without experienced supervision things can go badly ‘wrong’.
I think a major cause of confusion is the superstitious stereotypes conjured in the mind by Hollywood movies, Hammer Horror films, Dennis Wheatly novels etc. along with a presumption that demonic activity MUST necessarily equate to the image presented by the language of The Gospels.
There is no reason to suppose that, just because Jesus dealt with the occasional problematic pastoral situation by appearing to directly address an ‘independent entity’, which then gave an autonomous reply, (presumably uninitiated by it’s human host), that Jesus was confirming the actual existence of whatever he was appearing to converse with.
Multiple personality is a classic example of behavior which could be categorized as ‘demoniacal’. When communicating with a person effected in this way it can save a lot of time and help the person to feel ‘listened to’, if the therapist is willing to engage with them somewhat in their current delusional state, rather than constantly confronting the patient with ‘a reality’ they are at present, unable to comprehend.
I may be wrong, but I think most of the incidents of, so called, demonic possession of human beings is merely the result of misplaced, distorted or impaired human personality, due to perhaps a medical condition, trauma beyond the minds capacity to handle properly (particularly in childhood), or moral degradation (crime / debauchery), or prolonged drug abuse or other stress physical or mental or abuse of mental faculties i.e. witchcraft.
That human behavior which is most commonly described as ‘demonic’ seems to be exhibited by those who seem to have little or no control over their own actions and seem incapable of appreciating or taking responsibility for their own behavior. Often blatantly denying responsibility and protesting their innocence, even in front of witnesses or video evidence. This points to a serious lack of personal ‘sense of self’ or self awareness. An underdeveloped ‘core’ of personality easily influenced by others, to their own ends. Pathetic individuals, yes; But Demon possessed? Probably not.
ALL human beings seem to have this capacity to suppress ‘self awareness’ and deny responsibility for the harm that they may do. Shifting the blame is a game that started with Adam, passed to Eve, and left the serpent with not a single leg to stand on.
What we might label as ‘demonic’ is merely an exaggerated form of the personality defects common to the entire human race. WE are all capable of ‘rage’, ‘greed’, ‘fear’, ‘hate’, ‘envy’, ‘lust’ and ‘pride’ and we all feel better when our own misdemeanors are eclipsed by the more blatantly apparent sins of OTHERS.
Now that we no longer have The News of the World to feed our insatiable desire for self justification and provide the victim scapegoats upon which to pile all our miserable offenses, what ever will we do? Read the Daily Mail I suppose.
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Why can't we just accept some people are poorly, some are not very nice, some are ill but not diagnosed and so on.
Surely we don't need to take the human condition into the realms of fantasy and metaphysics. We are people and we suffer from the ailments of people. We don't need demons any more.
I appreciate the irony of a Christian pointing this out, but Christ was God. He spoke in the langauge of the times, so someone who was ill probably did have a demon in them according to Jews in the 1st century! We don't need that euphamism anymore.
We can call a nasty person simply a nasty person and a poorly person as simply a poorly person with such-and-such illness.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It could do ... but it might also call the practice into question. If one took a very literal approach to this, then one could cite that Jesus didn't appear to fail in his exorcisms
But the disciples failed in Mark 9, so it would seem possible that today we might fail through lack of the right sort of prayer, say.
I'm curious about why a dreadful outcome should discredit the whole practice. I don't know the case you mentioned, but it sounds as if the consequences made people think they had been deeply foolish and meddled in matters they should have left well alone. A very sensible conclusion in my opinion, but I don't see why someone who believes in demons would think that. Isn't their world view left intact?
As ken reminds us, there can never be direct evidence for the non-existence of anything from bigfoot to demons. People do hang onto such beliefs with extraordinary persistence. Why not in this case?
It's as if they were found out, as if they had only been playing at exorcism, and then reality jumped up and bit them and their pretended belief collapsed.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm no expert on this stuff nor encountered it very often - even in my full-on charismatic days - but it strikes me, very broadly, that whilst Catholics and Anglican exorcists seem to go round exorcising particular spaces - haunted pubs, poltergeists, things that go bump in the night - charismatic exorcists seem to go in for exorcising people ... which is obviously a lot more harmful potentially ...
There were some high profile cases back in the 1970s in the UK of people who died under apparent 'exorcisms' and one dreadful incident where one highly unbalanced bloke who had apparently been 'exorcised' and filled with the Spirit/speaking in tongues etc became convinced that his wife was demon possessed and promptly went home and ripped her face off with his bare hands.
In passing sentence, the Judge said that the CofE cleric and the local Methodist minister and their followers ought really to be the ones in the dock ...
It seems that this example actually contradicts your first paragraph.
Secondly, some might infer from your second paragraph that being 'exorcised' and filled with the Spirit/speaking in tongues etc is part of the charismatic problem which you have (smugly?) 'left behind' and is so-evidently something to do with the 'ripping off the face' incident.
Why do you mention tongues, etc, in the same sentence as exorcism - if not to suggest that it's all part of the unbalancing process that led to that poor woman's murder?
I see a bit of prejudice creeping in here?
[ 15. January 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Liberals of course will deny the existence of demons and explain their so-called activities by psychological and physiological causes.
This liberal believes in demons.
And this liberal deals with what's put in front of him. If someone comes to me and says "I'm being haunted," my first response isn't going to be "Isn't that a rather outdated way of viewing things?"
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by e;rogheaCofE:
quote:
Now that we no longer have The News of the World to feed our insatiable desire for self justification and provide the victim scapegoats upon which to pile all our miserable offenses, what ever will we do? Read the Daily Mail I suppose.
But its a demonic rag mopping up on human misery and bigotry....oh wait, those metaphors are unhelpful aren't they.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I see here (scrolling to the bottom) that Milton Keynes has been an exorcism hotspot. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I see here (scrolling to the bottom) that Milton Keynes has been an exorcism hotspot.
Have those concrete cows been frightening people again?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Someone I know well insists that on his conversion 30 years ago the people praying for him cast out several 'demons', evil spirits which had latched onto him when he had been playing with ouija boards and such like. Whether or not they had been influential in his life, he said that a weight lifted from him and his prior drug addiction has never returned.
I keep an open mind. There are some things people experience which haven't been explained by science.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
When Doris and Boogie say that 'metaphorical demons' terminology isn't helpful, what do you mean?
Yes, after I'd written the post, I thought, 'The trouble is, we don't have other words strong enough and familiar enough to take their place in metaphorical terms.'
quote:
Do you mean that someone who is described as having, say, a demon of laziness, is not meant to be understood as possessed by an actual evil spirit, but just struggling with chronic laziness in an ordinary human way?
Yes, I agree with this and quite a lotof the rest of the post.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
quote:
Someone I know well insists that on his conversion 30 years ago the people praying for him cast out several 'demons', evil spirits which had latched onto him when he had been playing with ouija boards and such like. Whether or not they had been influential in his life, he said that a weight lifted from him and his prior drug addiction has never returned.
As I said though, any approach that gets results is OK. It matters little if 'demons' exist in reality or not. What matters is that the person being 'delivered' of them is convinced they are now gone and is now able to live a normal life exhibiting the fruit of the Holy Spirit, the culmination of which is SELF control.
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And this liberal deals with what's put in front of him. If someone comes to me and says "I'm being haunted," my first response isn't going to be "Isn't that a rather outdated way of viewing things?"
Sounds sensible; would you go along with the idea of exorcism at any stage in helping someone?
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think there is no justification for there to be any kind of official exorcist in any religious group nowadays, as this panders to ideas that have been long since superseded by factual knowledge.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And this liberal deals with what's put in front of him. If someone comes to me and says "I'm being haunted," my first response isn't going to be "Isn't that a rather outdated way of viewing things?"
Sounds sensible; would you go along with the idea of exorcism at any stage in helping someone?
Yes I would, though obviously I wouldn't make that decision: it would be up to those who specialise in that ministry. "Exorcism" as such describes only one small part of what's involved in people's perception of spirits, demons, hauntings and such like, and in the CofE it's a ministry of last resort. There are all sorts of pastoral and ritual responses you would consider first.
quote:
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think there is no justification for there to be any kind of official exorcist in any religious group nowadays, as this panders to ideas that have been long since superseded by factual knowledge.
From my own experience, which I won't discuss in detail, I disagree. Though 25 years ago I would probably have agreed. It's probably worth pointing out that it won't be an "exorcist" who practises the ministry anyway: these days it's usually a "ministry of deliverance team", which will often include medical and psychiatric practitioners.
Many years ago, I did ask an "exorcist" what his first action would be if someone said their house was haunted. His response was "check the plumbing". It's in the nature of the ministry that these are sensible, level-headed people with their feet firmly on the ground.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Many years ago, I did ask an "exorcist" what his first action would be if someone said their house was haunted. His response was "check the plumbing". It's in the nature of the ministry that these are sensible, level-headed people with their feet firmly on the ground.
I can't remember where I heard this, but someone (probably someone on this board, on a blog) noted a diocesan exorcist's quip that his primary role was to avoid doing exorcisms. Exorcists are presumably, like you say, grounded people with counseling-psychology training/experience as well as a good dose of common sense.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Someone I know well insists that on his conversion 30 years ago the people praying for him cast out several 'demons', evil spirits which had latched onto him when he had been playing with ouija boards and such like. Whether or not they had been influential in his life, he said that a weight lifted from him and his prior drug addiction has never returned.
The danger is when excessively keen Christians with overactive imaginations start telling vulnerable people that they have all these demons in the first place. They can create confused, frightened people who may harm themselves before anyone can help them. Surprisingly, I've seen this happen in a CofE church, where you wouldn't expect it.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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catthefat
Shipmate
# 8586
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Posted
Some people are posessed by a demon that makes people believe in demons.
Posts: 143 | From: nottingham uk | Registered: Sep 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The danger is when excessively keen Christians with overactive imaginations start telling vulnerable people that they have all these demons in the first place. They can create confused, frightened people who may harm themselves before anyone can help them. Surprisingly, I've seen this happen in a CofE church, where you wouldn't expect it.
I agree. In his case, as he tells it, nobody suggested any such thing. They offered to pray for him. He agreed, reluctantly. They prayed. The 'spirits' surfaced, and were exorcised one by one, all within the prayer session. The people from the church later suggested that his dabbling might have attracted them.
He doesn't go around suggesting to people that they might have demons. He does try to deter people from dabbling.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
A friend of mine believed that a church we both belonged to had a dragon, as he put it. That is to say, although everyone was extremely pleasant and relaxed most of the time, there were occasional outbursts when somebody did something minor. Over-reactions that would have people unhappily meeting in secret and coming up with ultimatums and generally behaving in a way at odds with their personalities.
Knowing the history of the church and its deep hurts, I could see why a sort of panic gripped them at the first hint of anything unpredictable, and a terror that once conflict started it might rapidly get out of control.
A dragon was a great image. Asleep for such a long time that no one new would believe it existed, but those who remembered would know the shocking ruin that would follow if it was roused.
Perhaps a helpful image in that, once we knew it was there and that many in the church were terrified of it still, we behaved differently, keeping everyone very calm in stressful times.
But, of course, we knew it was only an image. There are no dragons in north London. Or are there? No, there really aren't.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
Multiple personality is a classic example of behavior which could be categorized as ‘demoniacal’.
It is known these days as Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID).
My wife has had a fair bit to do clinically with sufferers from it (largely as an outcome of her extensive work with survivors of childhood sexual abuse, which almost invariably precedes DID), and has also written some theological reflection on it.
She, like me, theoretically believes in demon possession on the basis of the scriptural record, but has always scrupulously distinguished it from DID.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I find it very surprising really that people can still believe that demons, evil spirits, etc exist, in the face of all the medical and scientific information, plus total lack of any such object ever.
I think it is a pity that there is a belief in even metaphorical ones.
I agree.
Even Jesus believed epilepsy was caused by demons didn't he? We know different now.
The causes of people's actions are far far better known today. I don't believe in ANY supernatural beings - I don't even think God is supernatural. I think S/he is part of everything that is, not outside it.
I don't use the phrase 'dealing with his demons' but plenty of people, who don't believe in supernatural beings, still do. Maybe metaphorical demons confuse matters?
How can you possibly know that any of the people exorcised by Jesus had epilepsy?
Why do you think using the word "demons" metaphorically is confusing, but using the word "God" metaphorically isn´t?
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I do believe demons exist, and possession too, and I suspect you'd get a similar answer from any missionary to a third world context. We've been asked to perform exorcisms, though I'm shamefully glad we never had to follow through--requesters decided the necessary accompanying life changes were too much, and decided to move house instead. (as if a demon couldn't follow a moving van!) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Whatever.
I do think that possession is far rarer today than it was in Jesus' time, possibly because the devil/demonic powers were making a special effort then in view of the incarnation.
In any case where someone starts talking this way our first advice is "get to a doctor for a full checkup" and then proceed if necessary with psychiatry, etc. And checking out the drains etc. is a really good idea. It would take a heckuva lot for me to conclude something was a case of possession. Demonic harassment (external) is more common IMHO; but that doesn't call for exorcism, just for major prayer. Preferably by as many faithful and down-to-earth Christian friends as you can scare up.
I'm actually writing a book on this subject right now (the harassment, I mean). We've had a good 25 years of it. Well, either that or we're shit magnets in a really, really, REALLY extreme way, and defying the mathematical odds on the same scale as a lottery winner.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
When people didn't understand as much as we know now about mental health, it was understandable to believe in demons. People behaving strangely and cruelly; others suddenly descending in to madness or being convulsed by fits.... It's natural to say to yourself "what evil thing is causing this?"
But I have to say that in this day and age, a belief in demons that require exorcism is stepping back into a past age which denies what we now know.
Yes - there are still areas of life where there is mystery - where science and medicine cannot yet explain it all. And yes - there is undeniable evil in our world. But the evil lives in the hearts of people - it is not some disembodied force "out there" preying on innocent and vulnerable people.
Whenever I have seen "exorcism" taking place (especially in charismatic churches), I have always seen a lot of hype and froth and very little Christianity. I have seen Christians being cajoled into thinking that "Satan has got a grip" on them and living in fear, doubt and self-loathing. Exorcism in such situations has always (in my experience) been about someone exerting undue power over someone more vulnerable than them.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
That's interesting, Oscar the Grouch. Since we can't find direct evidence that demons don't exist, I think it's more helpful to ask about the social phenomenon of belief in them.
You suggest it often accompanies abuse of power over vulnerable people. I think that it undermines a proper sense of personal responsibility and diverts attention away from complicity in injustice.
I think as well that belief in demons is a choice freely made, not usually the result of evidence. The reckless charlatanry that Gamaliel described seems to have been discredited in his and others eyes not because of evidence that it was wrong, but because of evidence that it had been a wilfully wicked and foolish decision to adopt the belief.
Thinking about demons from inside the scientific mindset, I'm prepared to consider evidence. But none is offered that will ever get me to believe in them. Instead, the right to believe is asserted, and that fact I can't disprove them is used to defend this belief.
But I don't think it is a belief. I think it's a choice, and one that suits reactionary viewpoints.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Oscar the Grouch and hatless
I'm nodding in agreement with your posts.
I think that every concession to demons etc and exorcism is a backward step and leads away from truth. There have to be better ways of educating people away from belief in such things, however long it takes.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Deleted duplicate - IE couldn't display page or something
[ 16. January 2013, 08:25: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think that it undermines a proper sense of personal responsibility and diverts attention away from complicity in injustice.
I agree - and wonder why otherwise responsible people are willing to undertake 'exorcisms'. There are other ways of putting people's minds at rest!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think that it undermines a proper sense of personal responsibility and diverts attention away from complicity in injustice.
I agree - and wonder why otherwise responsible people are willing to undertake 'exorcisms'. There are other ways of putting people's minds at rest!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Mudfrog, I said that 'broadly' RCs and Anglicans go in for exorcising spaces - not 'exclusively' ...
Also, I would suggest that tragic incidents like the one I related might have led them to that kind of inclination.
I can understand why you might be suggesting some prejudice on my part but I can assure you that this isn't the case.
I only mention the 'tongues' thing in this instance insofar as the people who performed the 'exorcism' took that as a 'sign' that the disturbed individual had been cleared of demonic influences and filled with the Spirit instead. The fact that he then went home and murdered his wife might suggest alternative conclusions.
I'm not using this individual case to dismiss the practice of speaking in tongues nor of exorcism per se - and as hatless says, it is open to various interpretations.
No, rather, what I'm doing is using a rather extreme example of the need - which we would all accept - to exercise caution and - apropos of other discussions we've had about 'assurances' and so on, not be too ready to use experiences in and of themselves to assess what is going on spiritually.
Does that clarify my position?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I think that it undermines a proper sense of personal responsibility and diverts attention away from complicity in injustice.
I agree - and wonder why otherwise responsible people are willing to undertake 'exorcisms'. There are other ways of putting people's minds at rest!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
We (mainly) have a view of exorcism that is based on two sources of information. The bible and Hollywood (perhaps the Daily Mail or NOTW - pretty much the same thing).
In the former we can easily read all sorts of things into it - like the claims above that epilepsy is to blame - but the fact is, we weren't there. It's also true that the beliefs at the time allowed for a real life demonology. All sorts of things were "explained"y reference to that world view.
Skip forward 2000 years and we have Hollywood and the popular press. There are no pretensions to truth here -- and so we are confronted by the sensational that is so extreme, it makes the whole thing laughable. The danger is that you then laugh off or dismiss real issues in people's lives: they are almost certainly not demonic but their very nature causes real hurt to the people affcetd. An approach to care or cure that focuses on the physical may just work but given the distress is mught not: this is where pastoral care really kicks in to deal with the spiritual issues that affect the physical (After all, everyoen is "spiritual" today aren't they like good post modernists: spiritual is the new religious).
Quite the most sensible approach to all this has been the comments above above those who are involved in delieverance in real life, today. Sane, sensible, looking for a physical or psychological explanation (that also includes the spiritual). A readiness to work as a team: the importance of medical help from a variety of disciplines. A desire to deal with any presenting issues in a variety of ways and being open to explanations for behavious and events that may include extreme spiritual concerns that merit the label "possession."
Anyone wanting to go into this kind of "ministry" should be banned from doing so. It is not for the amateur: our state church whilst getting so much wrong gets this one right - there are "experts" around. They are the most grounded sensible and matter of the fact people I've ever come across - and yes I know more than one. They aren't all raving charismatics either, they come from across the theological spectrum but all have one aim: to care for a very distressed person or persons.
With love, care and help there can be a cure. But for some (very few) there is no obvious solution in medical terms even with all kinds of help from a multidisciplinary team and approach.
Is that where deliverance or rather tarhgetted prayer is required ? Perhaps but never in a power situation.
The actions that take place are far from the shouting and screaming of myth and drama. Quiet reflection, prayer and above all listening to the person are crucial. Too much emphasis is put on method by places like Ellel Grange - the hard work should be in the care not working ou "which demon" is in there.
Please don't dismiss prayer in these circumstances as an expression of a power imbalance. Don't forget the same power imbalane occurs in every medical consultation where the healthcare professional is et up - however implicitly - as the healer, with you as the "client." (Beware of this language particularly - the root of client is "dependant."
Most, if not all, ministers will have had people coming to them claiming to be possessed. That's easy to deal with in one way: if possession IS real then it won't announce itself so directly. [I had one such example last week but I know the treatment this guy is having and the side effects his medication can cause ....]. Almost everyhting can be explained even by such basic things as plumbing, drains under houses, underground water, illness, loneliness etc etc.
There remains though the exceptions. Are we to ignore the possibility of spiritual influences which are harmful not benign, and thus deprive people of the help, prayer and support they may need to make them whole again?
For the record, though I'm sure it doesnt' matter much at all, I do believe that people can be affected by adverse responses or harmful expressions of spirituality. I don't rule out possession nor do I rule it in easily.
Experience over 35 years suggests that there are a few instances where it could be a possibility. In one (in the case of an abusive church leader across 3 denominations over a 25 year period), it seemed a reality. My flesh crawled in the presence of this man and I didn't even know at that time that, at the heart of his success, lay abuse of vulnerable and broken people.
That doesn't mean that it's real in all cases - it patently isn't - but don't throw possbility out of the window and deny what little help someone can get.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
[QUOTE] There are other ways of putting people's minds at rest!
Such as? (Genuinely interested not sarcastic!)
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
ExclamationMark quote:
but don't throw possbility out of the window
It sounds so sensible to admit that, though it might be very, very rare indeed, and though those who press us to believe that they have a demon are almost certainly not to be believed, and those who seem drawn to deliverance ministry should similarly be avoided, yet we shouldn't rule out the possibility that there are demons and demon possession. It's always better to be open minded and to consider fresh evidence, isn't it?
And yet, though it's possible there will be photographs and video of the amazing Loch Ness plesiosaur on the internet this afternoon, and if there are such photographs I would, of course, have to say wow! and heavens! and who'd a thought it, it's true after all! in reality I do dismiss the possibility.
Monsters in Loch Ness don't actually impinge on me much, unless I'm in two minds about camping on the banks one foggy night. Demons do, though. They offer an alternative hypothesis for dealing with illness and destructive behaviour which, if accepted, would lead to different treatment for that illness and different response to that behaviour.
Just keeping in mind the option of demons as a possible explanation will change the way we respond to people. And if they know we entertain that hypothesis, if we have a diocesan deliverance team, for example, that knowledge will affect the way some people present themselves to us. It seems safer, not to close my mind, but to decline to give the possibility house room.
On top of that, if it turned out to be true that there are an order of beings who can possess humans, our whole world view would take an immense knock and almost every aspect of life would have to be re-thought. For instance, if there are demons, and if the Hollywood stuff about old burial grounds is true, then decisions about where to live, which shop to visit, which route to take, how to explain accident statistics, whether or not it's worth taking antibiotics if you live that side of the road, whether burning incense sticks matters more than reducing saturated fats, etc. etc. are all going to need reassessing.
But does anyone really believe in demons to this extent? Does anyone really believe in demons at all?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
My flesh crawled in the presence of this man and I didn't even know at that time that, at the heart of his success, lay abuse of vulnerable and broken people.
That doesn't mean that it's real in all cases - it patently isn't - but don't throw possbility out of the window and deny what little help someone can get.
This is the sort of statement that really bothers me - along with those who reckon they 'deal' with demons.
It simply perpetuates the fear of something unseeable and terrifying. There are plenty of real things to fear - no need for invisible demons.
Of course there are evil people who make your flesh crawl. That means you are perceptive and intuitive as to their hidden flaws - it doesn't mean they are possessed.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
There are other ways of putting people's minds at rest!
Such as? (Genuinely interested not sarcastic!)
For a start to let them know that no being exists to hurt them which can't be seen by their own eyes. To refer them to the right medical help if their problems are mental or psychological. to reassure them of God's love and pray with them, if that's what they want.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Isn't there another way of understanding exorcism that is still done in the Orthodox tradition (I think it's part of the baptismal rite, but I could be wrong) and doesn't involve demons crawling out of the woodwork Hollywood style?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
When I began working as a minister before any funeral, baptism or wedding (still waiting for one of those)I was asked for an exorcism.
The lady concerned said she felt 'presences' in her home. I called my boss and the 2 of us visited. My boss talked through her experiences and any involvement in occult practices (but all very low key)and then we prayed in each room as a house blessing not 'exorcism' and held communion together.
Pastorally she was taken seriously, not dismissed as mistaken, we neither confirmed or denied her interpretation. She was cared for and we offered the space and all in it to God.
She reported peace in the home afterwards. I tend to think it is a case that she was at peace from the anxiety that had worked up.
I cannot deny the possibility of ghosts, demons or anything else. But I don't consider it a probability.
As it has been said CoE diocese have designated people, had my boss not had experience the probable next step for me would have been to contact my Anglican colleagues to find out who the designated person is and discuss with them.
As it has been said they are very grounded people who don't rush into things and yet remain open to the possibility of the improbable.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
Actually, fletcher, traditional teachings by the Eastern and Western churches have very little connection with Hollywood, as you can imagine. The trouble is, in reading the ancient rites without knowing what you are reading, one cannot easily tell whether the writer is employing metaphorical imagery for didactic instruction, or is using a more literal statement of faith and expectation.
I suggest, for starters, that the catechetical lectures of Cyril of Jerusalem (whether actually the work of Cyril or not is debatable, but nevertheless gives us a solid picture of early church practice there). Cyril reflects the view that the way of expelling evil spirits was taught to the apostles by Christ. The power over evil spirits is in a way a confirmation of the reality of Christian faith and the fruit of spreading the Good News.
The exorcism was quickly connected with the sacrament of baptism. Before baptism, catechumens underwent the so called exufflatio rite . The catechumen turned west and blew and spat as a sign of contempt for the devil. These gestures have a symbolic and biblical character: west is the symbol of night and Satan’s dwelling place, as opposed to east, symbolically connected with the Second Coming and Christ – “The Sun King”. To be understood literally or metaphorically? This custom remains in the Greek rite. The celebrant blew in the face of the catechumen referring to the words of Paul's injunction at 2 Thess 2:8.
After this rite came the consignatio (sealing) rite – the sign of the cross was made on the catechumen’s forehead. This meant offering them to Christ and – through a complete adherence to Jesus – completely breaking any tie with the evil spirit.
In some churches these rites were followed by taking previously exorcised salt. This rite had a double meaning: salt symbolises wisdom and the cure for sickness and decay. Thanks to this combination it had a very distinct meaning of exorcism.
Many modern baptismal liturgies have remnants of exorcism rites, within both protestant and Catholic traditions. For instance, in the Anglican Prayer book here in Austrralia there is a disconnected statement by the celebrant of the baptism: "May Almighty God deliver you from the powers of darkness....." without any actual exorcistic rite prior - not good liturgy, me thinks.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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